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It's worse than that (at least for Chuck *L*). Word came out a week or two ago that the Browns told teams around the league that he's available via trade.
And you believe this? Come on Toad,,you are way way smarter than that,, If this rumor (and that's all it is by the way) comes out in May,, then yeah, you better take note of it cause it could very well be true,, but during FA and before the Draft,,, Man you can't believe anything right now.. NOTHING.. no matter how much you want to believe it.
Every team in the league is moving around, spreading misinfo in order to see what kinda deal can be made.. The Browns are certainly no exception to this and since Savage has been here, he's done more of it than any prior regime in recent years.
So, yeah, if you want to , you can look at that RUMOR and say,,, Oh Oh,,,charlie is on his way out.., our you can look at it and say,, SMOKESCREEN...
What you believe is probably somehow associated to what you think of Charlie in this instance.. if you like him you don't want to believe it, if you dont' like him you are hoping it's true..
I'm one of those that thinks he deserves a year behind a better line,,, but that's just me.. in the end, I could care less who our QB is as long as he does his job and the team wins...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I gotcha Coach,,, I understand,,,, wish others did.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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And you believe this? Come on Toad,,you are way way smarter than that,, If this rumor (and that's all it is by the way) comes out in May,, then yeah, you better take note of it cause it could very well be true,, but during FA and before the Draft,,, Man you can't believe anything right now.. NOTHING.. no matter how much you want to believe it.
Every team in the league is moving around, spreading misinfo in order to see what kinda deal can be made.. The Browns are certainly no exception to this and since Savage has been here, he's done more of it than any prior regime in recent years.
So, yeah, if you want to , you can look at that RUMOR and say,,, Oh Oh,,,charlie is on his way out.., our you can look at it and say,, SMOKESCREEN...
What you believe is probably somehow associated to what you think of Charlie in this instance.. if you like him you don't want to believe it, if you dont' like him you are hoping it's true..
I'm one of those that thinks he deserves a year behind a better line,,, but that's just me.. in the end, I could care less who our QB is as long as he does his job and the team wins...
Yeah, what you said!! 
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I know you get it, Damon. I'm not saying Charlie is the answer, but some of the PERCEIVED problems in his game have nothing to do with him...or at least can't be laid at his feet until those things get fixed.
Toad is believing a report of a rumor about Frye being shopped. There was nothing else to it.
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First off,I'm not knocking any of our qb's.I'm talking about the evaluation process,not the production.
The GM and the coaches should make thier determinations on our qbs,without allowing outside factors to be wieghed in.Bad whether,muddy fields,windy conditions,no running game,bad line,excuses all.They determine the qb's production,not his ability.Can the qb overcome some of them.Can the qb make the throws when he does have time and open recievers.If the reciever drops it,its on his eval,not the qb's.
The bottom line is,do any of our qb's have the ability to win a SB for us.Some say yes,some say no.So it would seem,much like the difference between reasons and excuses,people have different views.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Yeah, I see your point BC,,, Evaluation of ability is one thing, evaluation of production is something else.. Ability is what they got and it depends on no outside event,,,, Production is a team thing and depends on those around him,, Makes perfect sense to me. Now, if we could only all agree on ability and skip perceptions 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Nicely said BC and I agree with 110%. The evaluation of players doesn't just happen on game day it goes on all the time. Yes the team was unproductive because of many factors but that does mean that a qb or a wr or de couldn't be evaluated for what they did or could do even under those circumstances.
I don't have a hate on for anyone but I do think we have 3 back up qb's ta best and not a one that will get us that production that is needed for a winning season and a playoff run.
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Really? Evaluations take place in practice and camps? I need to write that down and try that this year and maybe I'll actually win a game All joking aside, that is my point. No one has shown me anything from camp or practices that says Frye can't get it done. You ask if he can get us to the Super Bowl......Trent Dilfer got the Ravens to one  In the end, the coaches don't necessarily have a handle on Frye yet. They can ceratinly see that other factors have contributed to the poor performance. They may very well have made a determination, but just like last year, they could very well think the jury is still out.
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Really? Evaluations take place in practice and camps?
I didn't say that.
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No one has shown me anything from camp or practices that says Frye can't get it done
didn't say that either.
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Trent Dilfer got the Ravens to one
So did Bart Starr,Joe Montana,Troy Aikman and ofcoarse John Elway.Bringing up Dilfer or even Doug Williams doesn't change the question."Do any of our qb's have the ability to win a SB?"
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In the end, the coaches don't necessarily have a handle on Frye yet.
We are entrusting these people to make decisions on college players,after watching an NFL player,daily,for almost two years,they better know what they have.I'll grant you that qb is tough,tough position to evaluate,but,2 years should be enough time.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Coach B,,, Cut it out,,, you are NOT allowed to make sense,, it's against the rules,,,you should know that by now
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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."Do any of our qb's have the ability to win a SB?"
What? Since when do QBs win SBs? The team wins SBs. Not the QB. By your rational Marino was a failure. And so was Manning until this year. When coincidentally his Defense finally stepped up for him.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
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Wow, Rage, we agree on something  Daman, I'm sorry, I keep forgetting that actually understanding and not just blaming everything on the QB is taboo
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I thought I should say this just to be fair.. Lots of posters on here don't really have an agenda,,, they simply want the team to win and sometimes they blame the QB,, and, oddly enough, sometimes they are correct to do so. I can't remember which one said it,, either BC or Ralphie,,, think it was BC,,, that there is a difference between ability and production.. No question in my mind that some are confusing those at bit.. I'd also like to point out that there must be a difference in seeing ability in practice verses a real game.. In practice you don't have guys coming at you that intend to do you bodily harm In a game you do. That's gotta count for something right? I've often referred to my view of things from visiting camp.. I've mentioned time and again that in Camp,, I've seen Charlie throw the ball as hard and as far and as accurately as anyone ever has at every camp I've been too.. Nothing wrong with Charlies arm. (by the way, I still believe that) To me that demonstrates that physically, he can throw the ball well enough.. The coaches seem to agree when you hear them say, Charlie can make all the throws. So looking only at that one item that Charlie has been knocked for and you can see how perception takes over.. All he has to do is flutter one pass and it's,,,,, He doesn't have the arm... Another is this one,,, god I love this one the best... Too Many interceptions! Look at charlies stats,,,, 393 Atts 252 Completions 64.1% 10 TD's 17 INT's Not very impressive,, now look at the TD and INTS of another QB that has similar attempts but a very slightly higher completion percentage and fewer TD's. 10 TDs 8 INTs 66.4 Compl % Not astoundingly better, but better right... SURPRISE, it's charlie without the muffs by Braylon and Northcutt and a few others that resulted in INTS last season... We will never know how many more TD's those might have amounted to, and we will never know if they would have led to more wins,, we can assume that it would have improved our chances,,, but to what extent,,, hard to say. So is 8 ints horrible? Well, I'd prefer fewer of course,,, Kosar avg, 9 per season while in Cleveland... (81 ints over 9 seasons) so maybe 8 isn't so bad ya know....
Last edited by Damanshot; 03/16/07 11:08 AM.
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I guess I should have asked "Do any of the life forms have the ability to conform to the set standards of acceptable behavior?"
I apologize for politically correct ineptitude.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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As I said during Frye's rookie year. Poeple would be throwing him to the wolves before he had a chance to develope if we started him during his rookie year, and they would not give him the few years it takes to develope as a NFL QB behind a real NFL line.  In todays world way to many people want it all and they want it all now.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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all i'm saying is everything is b.s. right now.... a gm could look you in the eye and tell you who is first on their board and people would read something into it....i'll bet its a blast just like in poker...to run a successful bluff, every once in awhile you have to have the cards... the bottom line is the o was a shambles last year for various reasons, and we could use help in many ways.... that alone means people will have no clue who we will take.... now if we had a solid o except for qb then nobody would believe us if we were touting some other position...
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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All Pro
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As I said during Frye's rookie year. Poeple would be throwing him to the wolves before he had a chance to develope if we started him during his rookie year, and they would not give him the few years it takes to develope as a NFL QB behind a real NFL line. In todays world way to many people want it all and they want it all now.
The crazy thing is... *if* the Browns draft Quinn or Russell... will fans give him an opportunity to develop? If Quinn puts up Charlie Frye numbers... will people accept that because BQ has 'potenial' and he is learning? Or will they throw BQ under the bus and start screaming that PS drafted the wrong QB - and using hindsight point to the rookie who is performing at a high level? 
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C'mon Merth, you and I both know the unfortunate answer to those questions. 
Follow me on Twitter <a href="link" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/CoachA12</a>
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Practice Squad
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I thought I should say this just to be fair.. Lots of posters on here don't really have an agenda,,, they simply want the team to win and sometimes they blame the QB,, and, oddly enough, sometimes they are correct to do so.
I can't remember which one said it,, either BC or Ralphie,,, think it was BC,,, that there is a difference between ability and production.. No question in my mind that some are confusing those at bit..
I'd also like to point out that there must be a difference in seeing ability in practice verses a real game.. In practice you don't have guys coming at you that intend to do you bodily harm In a game you do. That's gotta count for something right?
I've often referred to my view of things from visiting camp.. I've mentioned time and again that in Camp,, I've seen Charlie throw the ball as hard and as far and as accurately as anyone ever has at every camp I've been too.. Nothing wrong with Charlies arm. (by the way, I still believe that)
To me that demonstrates that physically, he can throw the ball well enough.. The coaches seem to agree when you hear them say, Charlie can make all the throws.
So looking only at that one item that Charlie has been knocked for and you can see how perception takes over.. All he has to do is flutter one pass and it's,,,,, He doesn't have the arm...
Another is this one,,, god I love this one the best...
Too Many interceptions!
Look at charlies stats,,,,
393 Atts
252 Completions
64.1%
10 TD's
17 INT's
Not very impressive,, now look at the TD and INTS of another QB that has similar attempts but a very slightly higher completion percentage and fewer TD's.
10 TDs
8 INTs
66.4 Compl %
Not astoundingly better, but better right...
SURPRISE, it's charlie without the muffs by Braylon and Northcutt and a few others that resulted in INTS last season...
We will never know how many more TD's those might have amounted to, and we will never know if they would have led to more wins,, we can assume that it would have improved our chances,,, but to what extent,,, hard to say.
So is 8 ints horrible? Well, I'd prefer fewer of course,,, Kosar avg, 9 per season while in Cleveland... (81 ints over 9 seasons) so maybe 8 isn't so bad ya know....
I very much agree, things could have looked very different with fewer of those dropped passes. How many of those were dropped by Dropcutt?
But even though dropped passes hurt us, he still made too many mistakes. Do I agree that he has some flaws? Yes, but I think those flaws are far more obvious with a weak O-Line in front of him. I think if we give him a shot, if we give him some protection, his flaws will not be as prominent as they were last year.
We can't make excuses for our QB though. Some of the passes he threw were horrible passes, some were bad decisions, and some of those dropped passes were because Charlie threw the ball where he shouldn't and when he shouldn't. On the same note though, some of them weren't his fault, some of them were due to bad protection, and some were due to slacking in the reciever portion. I'm just trying to be realistic and fair, he made some mistakes as well as many others on this team.
HAVE FAITH IN YOUR TEAM! GO BROWNS!!
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No one is saying he didn't make mistakes. Daman and I are contending that these are normal 1st year starter "take your lumps" mistakes and that other factors retarded his growth. In essence, we are agreeing with your post.
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Scoot,, it wasn't the dropped passes I was counting,, I was only counting the passes that bounced off of our own receivers that ended up as INTs...
If you want to add passes that were dropped that were Catchable,,,then that has to take his completion percentage up a little. I just don't know how many there were so I can't do the math on it,,,sorry
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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yes, that's the only thing I'm saying,, Charlie is very very far from perfect.. I'd just like to see what happens with him with a better line, some decent playcalling and receivers that catch the dang ball..
hey, every receiver in the league or that has ever been in the league has dropped a few passes,,, so it's gonna happen.. no question, but let's be honest,,, there was just to many times last season where we dropped significant passes.., passes that could have changed the outcome,,
I just wanna be fair to CF,,,
Having said that, and I'm betting that Coach B will agree,,, I don't care who is our QB,, I'm not tied to Charlie,,, I just wanna win. so in the end, if we draft Quinn, move up to get Russell, take Carr or Schaub in a trade,,, if whoever does his job and the team wins,, I'm gonna love it...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The crazy thing is... *if* the Browns draft Quinn or Russell... will fans give him an opportunity to develop?
40 percent will want the rookie to start the 1st regular season game.
50 percent will want him to start by the middle of the season, and the smarter  10 percent will want him to sit all year.
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Or will they throw BQ under the bus and start screaming that PS drafted the wrong QB - and using hindsight point to the rookie who is performing at a high level?
They will not only throw him under the bus, they will want to superglue him down so the bus can't miss him
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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and so is the way of lots of Cleveland Browns fans.... irritating isn't it  they always seem to forget, it's a team sport,,, always blaming it on one guy and coming up with one reason or another to say it's this guy or that guy,,,,, and the guy most often blamed is,,,,,,, DRUM ROLL PLEASE...... The Quarterback!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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and the QB always gets to much blame OR to much credit. Not just in Cleveland but in every NFL city.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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"I can't remember which one said it,, either BC or Ralphie,,, think it was BC,,, that there is a difference between ability and production.. No question in my mind that some are confusing those at bit.."
Must have been BC...those thoughts are too deep for me!!
I want us to solidify our OL with Thomas at #3...if he isn't there try to drop back and get a Dline monster to solidify that line. Reverse the process in Rd. 2 that in itself should make Frye's job a bit more doable. Less 3rd and longs means more first downs which means more points...more points allows the Defense to be rested when they do charge the field.
My 8 year old grandson just explained that to me.
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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10 percent will want him to sit all year.
Count me right here...though I dunno about smarter. 
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jc...this article sums up our discussion Who will call shots for Browns draft day?By Dan Clutter I know, I know, Art Modell no longer lives in Cleveland. Apparently, however, his hands-on management style has come back. According to NFL.com, the Browns have been ordered by owner Randy Lerner to take a franchise quarterback with their first pick in the NFL Draft. The pick is the third overall be-hind Oakland and Detroit. Lerner has now decided to go from an owner with no apparent leadership skills to an owner who will tie the hands of general manager Phil Savage by making this kind of command decision. The latest rumor has the Browns talking trade with the Lions for the second pick in the draft to secure a quarterback, probably Notre Dame's Brady Quinn. The Lions would then have the third pick and some other combination of picks from the Browns in the draft. If this is true, then it would be the worst decision the Browns have made since trading Paul Warfield to the Dolphins for what would become Mike Phipps in 1970.For those of you born after 1970 and have never heard of Phipps, well, the Browns made a trade and acquired a franchise quarterback from the state of Indiana. Sound familiar? He was a huge bomb. Warfield, as we know, be-came a Hall of Fame wide receiver. What's more, the trade probably set the Browns back through the entire decade of the 1970s. A hurried and desperate decision like forcing Savage's hand could also set this team back.First, why force Savage to take a quarterback? Why limit his options? There are a number of teams willing to trade up for a chance to get one of the top four players in this draft: LSU's JaMarcus Russell, Quinn, Oklahoma's Adrian Peterson and Georgia Tech's Calvin Johnson. The Browns might be able to trade down and stockpile draft picks, something a rebuilding team might want to do. Secondly, while Quinn might be a great quarterback in time, there are no guarantees. Savage might feel that Wisconsin left tackle Joe Thomas or Peterson are a better fit for this team. I don't know about you, but I trust Savage's football savvy a lot more than a man who spends most of his time watching soccer players. This might be a ploy, a chance to trick NFL teams into thinking the Browns are going to take Quinn, forcing other teams to take action. That has to be the case. I mean, does anyone want to re-inact what has been termed the "Phipps Fiasco" all over again? I guess it could be worse. At least we're not hearing any "mad dog in a meat market" rhetoric anymore. I also don't know about you, but I would rather not hear about any more players drafted nicknamed "Big Money" either. So far, Savage has had a very positive off-season. The Browns have bolstered both sides of the line of scrimmage, and added former Pro-Bowl running back Jamal Lewis in the process. While I'm not completely sold on Charlie Frye, taking a quarterback with that first pick would be a mistake. dclutter@nncogannett.com 419-563-9224
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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I don't see any truth to this. Lerner has established a business with a model of letting his GM make the calls. Yet he's going to panic and step in now?
Don't believe it.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I don't believe it either and I am a bit surprised the media just took off with it like a pack of GATORAIDE GUM..
Lerner was saying how much he liked Russell , now it's Quinn..news of the owner wanting both sends signals to OAKTOWN/Detroit/Tampa/Houston..
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Tell teams that if they want a QB they need to deal with Detroit, then Thomas falls into our laps.
Giggity. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I don't see any truth to this. Lerner has established a business with a model of letting his GM make the calls. Yet he's going to panic and step in now?
Don't believe it.
Me neither, For the last two years he has said he wanted to hire football people, step back and let them do thier job, he has done that, nothing has changed...Football off season, soccer off season, Randy was bored, so Phil added him into the smoke screen...
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The Lions are sending out a message they think we want one of the QB's and they are looking for Butch Davis again..
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Hehehe.......Butch who? *L*
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I don't know about you, but I trust Savage's football savvy a lot more than a man who spends most of his time watching soccer players.
I would trust him "All Day" over Lerner.
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Pure speculation on my part...
But, I'm guessing this report about "Management" has to do with getting the best possible offers for a trade down.
I'm sure Savage has been talking to various teams about such a move and probably not getting the value he wants. The best way to get that value.....is have pressure from The Boss to pick the most coveted players....that way, the ONLY way Savage can talk deals is if it's an absolute Gem for us.....because "Management" covets the big timer at 3 you're gonna have to blow us away with an offer...
I'm talking trading down for value...ala our #3 for a top 10 pick a 2nd rounder and a 3rd or a player...I'm doubting Savage has gotten many offers from teams willing to give up that 2nd rounder I think he wants badly.
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Very interesting thought. What better way to get this "out" to the rest of the league then to tell someone in the media.
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I dunno Mav. Most teams (read ALL teams) use that draft value chart as their version of the bible. A drop from 3 to 10 is something like 1000 points (going from pure memory here) and an early 2nd rounder is around 500 points. So a team wanting to move up is going to have to come up with that 500 points plus something to make the deal worth it.
There will be viable offers on the table. The question is probably going to be whether or not Savage really wants a specific player.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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All Pro
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Yeah, no doubt about what you posted - that DVC is utilized like crazy in these draft trade scenarios...
But, IM GUESSING HERE, I think NFL Front Office guys tend to be VERY leery about trading away a whole first day for 1 guy...and COULD BE - essentially what Savage wants above all else....Phil Savage and 5 first day picks could spell big improvement.
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Wow,, From Dan Clutter,,,, amazing, I think when he says that according to NFL.com, he's referring to the Adam Schaffter article: http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/10060470In it, Adam quotes Multiple NFL Sources as having said that top managment wants a QB,,, How enlightening... from all these invisible sources...LOL Anyway, I guess if I was an NFL source, and I wanted to set up a smokescreen to see if I could get someone to make some moves,,,kinda shake loose the picks and trades,, I'd want to remain anonomous also..LOL Sorry, I'm not buying into this.. this is so far off of Randy Lerners style (at least what we've seen of it) that it's not even funny.. Wait,, I just had a thought.. Ok, Picture this... Randy says to Romona Robinson on Channel 3 a few weeks ago that his perfect draft would be Russell.... Check Then RAC makes a little comment about Quinn and what Charlie Wies told him,, you know,, Move up to get him! ....Check Then all the stories come out about Russell dropping and Quinn dropping,,, Check Then the stories come out about Quinn dropping and Russell rising...Check Then all the stories come out about Russell dropping and Quinn Rising...Check Then the stories come out about how close Phil is to Jamarcus because he's known him for years....Check Now the story comes out that several NFL Sources are saying that Randy Lerner is telling Savage to bring home a Franchise QB... Check Fellas,,, The BROWNS are behind these rumors,,, they want to create a buzz so that someone will want to jump up to grab a QB thus changing the entire picture of the top of the draft.. Think about it,, If the Browns really want Thomas, and there is the rumor that Detroit might take him,,then the best thing the browns could do is start rumors that one of the QB's isn't gonna get past them,,, that means that someone has to leapfrog the Browns and get with Detroit to take one of the top QB's,,, Leaving us with the guy we wanted all along... Wheww,,,, dang,, that was hard to write
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“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Management pushing for QB pick???
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