Quote: You know, The Draft is 3 days away and for some reason, that #4 pick of Richardson is almost a no brainer! But then again, we are talking about the Browns! I just pray Heckert does not screw this one up!
We used up our no brainer when we didn't overpay for RGIII, this makes me fearful we'll screw this one up.
There is some speculation that the Bucs may be trying to maneuver to get the #3 pick from Minny to select Richardson, with the hope that the Browns take Claiborne and Minny gets their man in Kalil and gets at least one additional pick, maybe more, in the process.
Quote: You know, The Draft is 3 days away and for some reason, that #4 pick of Richardson is almost a no brainer! But then again, we are talking about the Browns! I just pray Heckert does not screw this one up!
We used up our no brainer when we didn't overpay for RGIII, this makes me fearful we'll screw this one up.
There is some speculation that the Bucs may be trying to maneuver to get the #3 pick from Minny to select Richardson, with the hope that the Browns take Claiborne and Minny gets their man in Kalil and gets at least one additional pick, maybe more, in the process.
I'm just staying. I can see it happening.
This was my concern awhile back.. Watch someone jump us for TR .. DAMN
Then I guess we go Blackmon and the next best running back......
God I hope Tannehill is still on the Board and the Browns do take him. If the Browns don't get Tannehill I'll be highly disappointed.
I'd love for someone to jump to 3 to take Richardson so it can prevent the Dolphins jumping to 3 to take Tannehill.
Tannehill is an absolute must pick.
With 3 days to go, somebody should start the topic where we list 13 names on who'll they will take and whoever gets the most correct gets bragging rights.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
The Steelers have 2 firsts, a 2nd, a 3rd and an UDFA.
.
For what its worth....The Steelers have nothing like that. C- Pouncey was a 1...LT Starks was a 3rd.... RT Gilbert was a 2 and both guards were UDFA (Legursky and Foster) Kemoeatu who got benched was a 5th and Injured Willie Colon a 4th.
I was thinking about the strengths in our division. Each team has their strengths and weaknesses. To me it would seem the best way to approach the draft taking that into consideration would be to play good defense and be better against the run and be able to pass the ball to open up the run. You don't try to run against three of the top rush defenses in the league to open up the pass. Chances are they will severely limit your run game and take away the pass by keeping extra guys in the box and putting pressure on the QB. We have seen it for years. If you get a guy like Blackmon that can take a slant and get 20 yards after the catch or beat his man with no safety over the top and break one, it will make the D have to play straight up and open up the run and Play action. Yeah, we can grind it out with 4 yard carries but few and far between do those guys give up long gainers or game breaking runs. Keep that safety out of the box and I can see the chances of that getting better after getting to the second level. I have to think Blackmon means more to getting this offense going. I will be happy with Richardson or Blackmon but for years we tried to beat their strengths instead of attack their weaknesses. The only time it worked was when we had Winslow, Edwards and Jurevicious with Northcutt and a barely 4 yards a carry Lewis.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
1a) Trent Richardson, RB, Alabama 1b) Stephen Hill, WR, Georgia Tech 2) Brandon Weeden, QB, Oklahoma State 3) Mitchell Schwartz, OT, California 4a) James-Michael Johnson, ILB, Nevada 4b) Jamell Fleming, CB, Oklahoma
Who you WANT the Browns to pick in rounds 1-4?
1a) Morris Claiborne, CB, LSU 1b) Kendall Wright, WR, Baylor 2) Bobby Massie, OT, Ole Miss *Trade back into the 2nd using our 3rd and a future pick* 2b) Lamar Miller, RB, Miami 4a) Nigel Bradham, OLB, Florida State 4b) Ryan Broyles, WR, Oklahoma
STEALS (round 2 or later players) **optional
Lamar Miller, Doug Martin, Bobby Massie, Lavonte David, B.J. Coleman, Brandon Brooks, Brandon Boykin, Ladarius Green, Sean Spence, Ryan Broyles
TURDS **optional
Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden, Quentin Coples, Janoris Jenkins, Mike Adams, Alfonzo Dennard
1. What's even worse is to committ to a QB that was never even supposed to be a franchise QB...and that'd be the "alternative" at this point
2. The "best of the rest in 2012" is probably better than the best projected for 2013...RIGHT NOW...if Barkley would have been picked apart like the others have been he wouldn't look as good anymore...he made a wise decision to stay in school as he would have paled in comparison to Luck and RG and would be in the mix of "best of the rest"...so just because next draft there isn't anyone better that makes him better? Strange logic....and let's pretend he IS next year's Luck...what are our chances of getting him if we aren't picking at 1? With our young talent getting better and better we're probably ALWAYS looking at the "best of the rest"..and since this draft had not 1 but 2 SPECIAL QBs I think it's safe to say that "the best of the rest" is much better than in most drafts
we've said EXACTLY the same things 1 year ago...but yeah, there's always NEXT draft
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Quote: if Barkley would have been picked apart like the others have been he wouldn't look as good anymore...he made a wise decision to stay in school as he would have paled in comparison to Luck and RG and would be in the mix of "best of the rest"...
I disagree, I think Barkleys departure from the race really elevated RGIII's stock. I think Barkley would have competed for #2 and at worst would have been the obvious #3.
Quote: and since this draft had not 1 but 2 SPECIAL QBs I think it's safe to say that "the best of the rest" is much better than in most drafts
I think that is very dangerous logic and is what lends itself to reaching. You have to look at a guy like Tannehill (or anybody for that matter) and grade him in a vacuum... Is this guy a legitimate top 5 pick based on his ability? A top 10 pick? A first round pick? I don't care who is likely to be drafted before him and how good they might be, that is totally irrelevant. "Luck and RGIII are really good, therefore Tannehill is better than he looks?" That makes no sense from a guy that I frequently disagree with but who usually makes sense.
No, my point was that we will probably NEVER be in position to get the no1 QB on the board and therefor have to chose between those "best of teh rest" types..generally speaking
For the draft...all that matters is an upgrade...why is QB treated differently than RT? We have bottom 5 starters at both positions, right? SO why would people be happy with Schwartz in the 3rd but not Tannehill/Weeden? Because of the cost? This is due to supply/demand and value of the position....but if those guys are significantly better than McCoy, then you take them...they improve a pretty important position
Your and other's logic seems to be...if we can't get Luck/ELi type guys than we might as well suck with Colt...there ARE 3 or 4 tiers of OTHER talent level QBs in between and they'd be UPGRADES...you do realize that?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
You know Mourg, I could live with a that Tackle Kalil all day long at #4. But we have to draft some skill players also. And I mean some FAST skill players. We have 3 picks in the top 50, we should be able to get exactly what we want!
Quote: You know Mourg, I could live with a that Tackle Kalil all day long at #4. But we have to draft some skill players also. And I mean some FAST skill players. We have 3 picks in the top 50, we should be able to get exactly what we want!
If we go Kalil, we could always look at guys like HB Lamar Miller of Miami, his stock is kind of falling. He may last until the 3rd round. There is Chris Rainey of Florida, more of a 3rd down back/gadget guy. I still like Robert Turbin and Bernard Pierce too, even though they aren't blazers. Richardson isn't a blazer either though.
Going off the final scouts inc rankings (and the normal +0 in first round, +1 in 2nd, +2 in 3rd etc), who do I want (no trades):
4 - Matt Kalil, OT, USC 22 - Courtney Upshaw, DE, Alabama - This is by far the hardest pick, took me forever. Almost want to take Claiborne with the #4, just so I can take Martin here and have both. Kirkpatrick is clear BPA -- but he's a terrible schematic fit (we play 90% man coverage). 37 - Alshon Jeffery, WR, USC 67 - Zach Brown, OLB, UNC 100 - Mohammad Sanu, WR, Rutgers - Yes, he's here. 118 - Tauren Poole, RB, Tennessee 139 - Russell Wilson, QB, Wisconsin 160 - Nate Potter, OT, Boise State 204 - Andrew Datko, OT, Florida State 205 - Donnie Fletcher, CB, Boston College 211 - Aaron Henry, S, Wisconsin 245 - Danny Trevathan, OLB, Kentucky 247 - Nick Jean-Baptiste, DT, Baylor
Figured I'd do the same with the gbnreport big board (just to see what the variety looked like):
4 - Morris Claiborne, CB, LSU - Kalil is gone here. Claiborne + Haden (both shutdown man coverage guys) give us the best CB tandem in the league. 22 - Cordy Glenn, OT, Georgia - We still need our RT here. 37 - Alshon Jeffrey, WR, USC - Still have him as the third best WR in the draft. Don't think we'll actually take him -- but it's my dream. 67 - LaMichael James, RB, Oregon - Not sure how I feel about him, but he can be electric. Is an interesting mix with Hardesty. 100 - T.Y. Hilton, WR, FIU - One of my favorite players in the draft. Electric playmaker, would be perfect alongside Jeffery and Little. 118 - Olivier Vernon, DE, Miami - Another favorite. Great run-stopping DE. 139 - Tank Carder, ILB, TCU - Solid LB who could play multiple spots 160 - Nate Potter, OT, Boise State - Great feet and could fill in multiple places on the OL. 204 - Rishaw Johnson, OG, California (PA) - Super strong OG who is a little bit of a project. 205 - Vontaze Burfict, LB, Arizona State -- Not sure why I'm putting him here. Nobody is staring me in the face that I really want at this point. 211 - Danny Trevathan, OLB, Kentucky - Perfect schematic fit for the Browns, quick Weak side linebacker who is a tackling machine. 245 - Nick Jean-Baptiste, DT, Baylor - Big guy in the middle, again a good schematic fit, former teammates with Phil Taylor. 247 - Chris Owusu, WR, Stanford - Lot of talent, and we have room for an injury flyer.
I'm not as down on Jeffrey as many, but I don't think he's a great scheme fit for us.
I don't like thre triage trio idea we'd have at RB.
I think TY Hilton is so overrated on this board. Watched him pout about not being the center of attention v. Marshall and was nothing special with the ball in his hands.
If we draft Claiborne at 4, we messed up or someone failed a drug test/got arrested today.
Rishaw Johnson... I don't know why his name keeps popping up. He was the single most unathletic person at the combine and he's never played anyone in his life.
Quote: For the draft...all that matters is an upgrade...
And we have a lot of positions to upgrade...
Quote: why is QB treated differently than RT?
Because teams win consistently in this league with slightly above average RTs.. and a lot of other positions, all the time..... team don't win super bowls very often with slightly above average QBs.
I do not want the Browns to be on a trajectory to get decent, I want them to be on a trajectory to be great.. and using a high first round pick on a QB is locking the team into that guy for 2 or 3 years.
The fact that Tannehill or Weeden are the 3rd or 4th best QB in the draft is completely irrelevant... if you have Tannehill as a legit top 10 pick, then take him at #4 and I have no problem with that but if you have him ranked below that in the draft, taking him at #4 just because he is the 3rd best QB and may represent an upgrade to what you have is stupid and it is those kinds of reaches that leave teams drafting in the top 10 forever.
Quote: Your and other's logic seems to be...if we can't get Luck/ELi type guys than we might as well suck with Colt...there ARE 3 or 4 tiers of OTHER talent level QBs in between and they'd be UPGRADES...you do realize that?
Yes, and I don't want that kind of upgrade. First, I am not committed to the fact that Colt is in the bottom tier just yet.. you are, that's fine... but who do you want? Do you want Josh Freeman? Ryan Fitzpatrick? Matt Moore? Which one of them do you envision hoisting the Lombardi trophy? I'm assuming that all of them would rank in a tier above Colt by your standards.. so if you have one of them are you going into this draft thinking.. "Well, the QB spot is all set with our upgrade at QB, what else do we need?" Is that where you want to be in 2 years? With a guy that looks like Matt Moore on a 7 or 8 win team?
If you are happy with a 3rd tier QB just because he represents an upgrade then thats fine, but you don't do that in the first round. Draft needs are different every year, my opinion of the 3rd rated QB is different every year, some years I think he is worth a high pick, other years I do not.. as for next year, yes, I would rather suck with Colt than reach for an upgrade....
Just to add to that.. The supposed theory of upgrading Colt with Tannehill is the equivalent of upgrading Pashos with Mike Adams...but using the #4 overall pick to do it.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
He agreed to play WR because he wasn't good enough to beat the current guy out. He wanted to be on the field and obviously was a better receiver than QB.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
Quote: If you are happy with a 3rd tier QB just because he represents an upgrade then thats fine, but you don't do that in the first round. Draft needs are different every year, my opinion of the 3rd rated QB is different every year, some years I think he is worth a high pick, other years I do not.. as for next year, yes, I would rather suck with Colt than reach for an upgrade....
I think Tannehill's and Weeden's upside are of the tier 1-2 variety and their floor is higher than McCoy's ceiling (Weeden's floor is probably lower, but I think it's useless to compare grades of stink)...sure, if they just become their floor we still will be looking for a QB...so what? Keeping McCoy pretty much guarantees that, so I'd rather take a shot at an high upside guy than keep the 100% bum we already have
I also think that teams have different "rankings" on QB prospects...if you're willing to take a QB at 22 you obviously think he has franchise potential (guys like Weeden being the rare excpetions due to age)...so you migh as well take him at 4...or 1 for that matter...what's the difference? As the Weeden article in the other thread explains....nobody will ever remember where he was drafted if he's good...and if he bombs you will hear about it anyway...no matter if you have picked him at 1 or 31...you drafted him to be your QB of the future anyway
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Quote: sure, if they just become their floor we still will be looking for a QB...so what?
Then we will not have a game changing WR, RB or RT that we could have had.
Quote: if you're willing to take a QB at 22 you obviously think he has franchise potential (guys like Weeden being the rare excpetions due to age)...so you migh as well take him at 4...or 1 for that matter...what's the difference?
The difference is completely based on your confidence that he will become that franchise guy. Theoretically every QB in the draft has the chance to become a franchise QB.. just ask Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Tom Brady, etc...(or better yet, ask all of the teams that left them on the board).... the reason they fall to later picks/rounds is because of the confidence the NFL teams have that they will become "franchise QBs"...
Can Tannehill and Weeden become franchise QBs? Absolutely. Does that make them worth the #4 pick in the draft? That depends on how confident that you are in them becoming that.
Quote: As the Weeden article in the other thread explains....nobody will ever remember where he was drafted if he's good...and if he bombs you will hear about it anyway...no matter if you have picked him at 1 or 31...
I disagree.. drafting him at 31 means we probably got a game changer at either the WR/RB/RT position plus the QB... drafting him at 4 means we passed on those. There is a big lost opportunity cost to taking anybody high in the first round and having them flop. We've done it repeatedly, that's why we are where we are.
You have claimed that people who don't want to use the #4 pick on a QB just want to suck next year... and I would say that you seem to be of the opinion that we should use the #4 pick on a QB, as long as he's the best one left... and if he doesn't work out, we'll take the best available QB next year... and the year after that. It's hard to build through the draft if you are using your high picks on the same position every year.
Quote: I want to trade up a bunch. Turn 13 picks in to maybe 6 players.
I wouldn't mind moving next years #1 in the process.
This quantity thing doesn't mean crap to me. I like quality.
Give me 4 quality players for all the picks and I am good to go.
Agreed. Do you think 13 draft picks would make the roster? Highly unlikely, especially since we'll look at the UDFAs as well, so we ain't holding onto that many rookies. We will make some trades for sure.
If for some reason we still end up with a high amount of picks, which I think we end up with more like 10, why not draft someone who you know will probably make the roster. I'm looking at punters in the 6th-7th, and a OL that will be our LS. Since the likelihood of keeping them will be high instead of wasting the pick on a guy who will be going up hill trying to find a roster spot.
Since I started the thread, I better put mine down. I am bit disappointed that only about 5-10 people actually did it correctly and some of the more infamous posters didn't put their mark down for posterity. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who you THINK the Browns will pick in rounds 1-4? 1a) Trent Richardson, RB, Alabama 1b) Coby Fleener, TE, Stanford 2) Brandon Boykin, CB, Georgia 3) Chris Givens, WR, Wake Forest 4a) Donald Stephenson, OT, Oklahoma 4b) Demario Davis, LB, Arkansas State
Who you WANT the Browns to pick in rounds 1-4?
1a) Morris Claiborne, CB, LSU 1b) Reuben Randle, WR, LSU 2) Doug Martin, RB, Boise State 3) Mitchell Schwartz, T, California 4a) George Iloka, FS, Boise State 4b) Joe Adams, WR, Arkansas
STEALS (round 2 or later players) **optional
Mohamed Sanu, AJ Jenkins, Lavonte David, Mike Martin, LaMichael James, George Iloka, Donald Stephenson, Ryan Broyles, Tank Carder, Mike Daniels, Boom Herron
TURDS **optional
Nick Perry, Shea McClellin, Andre Branch, Mike Adams, Brock Osweiler, Bruce Irvin, Michael Brockers
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
Quote: I want to trade up a bunch. Turn 13 picks in to maybe 6 players.
I wouldn't mind moving next years #1 in the process.
This quantity thing doesn't mean crap to me. I like quality.
Give me 4 quality players for all the picks and I am good to go.
Hey I'm with you buddy. I'd rather have 6 picks in the first 3 rounds than 20 picks in rounds 4-7...
I absolutely wouldn't consider trading away next years #1 though... primarily because there is not going to be anything on the board that is worth it. Unless you are talking about getting TWO of Richardson, Kalil, Blackmon... Now that would be interesting.
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