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It sounds as if the NFL is near to making their decision as to the punishment for the players. But this morning, a story on PFT might pose a problem for the NFL.
Steve Smith claims Saints player admitted targeting him Posted by Michael David Smith on April 25, 2012, 6:46 AM EDT Panthers receiver Steve Smith says that when news broke of the Saints bounty scandal, he wasn’t the least bit surprised because he was previously told by a Saints player that dirty plays were encouraged. In fact, Smith said on the Dave Dameshek Football Program on NFL.com that a Saints player took a cheap shot at him during a game, and when Smith objected, the player told him that he had to do it because on the Saints’ defense, you get fined if you don’t take cheap shots. “I always knew Gregg Williams and his defenses would do that,” Smith said. “I actually had an altercation with a guy who told me firsthand. I was going out of bounds, and the guy went for my ankle. I said, ‘Hey, man, cut that out.’ He’s like, ‘Well, we get fined if we don’t go after your legs when you go out of bounds.’ . . . And actually this past year, this last game when we played them, I had a little conversation with Gregg Williams. . . . He took responsibility, he was saying it wasn’t right, but that’s who he was and that’s who he is.” Although some people will be inclined to believe any negative story that comes out about the Saints these days, Smith’s claim doesn’t make a lot of sense. Why didn’t he name the Saints player who told him that? Why did he wait until now to say anything about it? Why didn’t Smith mention it last season, when he was involved in an altercation with Saints safety Roman Harper, who hit him in the end zone after Smith scored a touchdown? Smith’s claims also don’t align with what we’ve previously heard about the Saints’ bounty program: Smith is saying that Saints players were fined for not taking cheap shots, which isn’t the same thing as being rewarded with bonuses for taking opposing players out. Smith, who has a habit of sucker punching teammates, also isn’t exactly the guy who has the best case for taking the high road when it comes to cheap shots. So as we add it to the pile of negative stories coming out about the Saints this offseason, Smith’s is a story that should be met with skepticism. web page The part of this story that could be a problem is where an unnamed Saints player claims he would be fined if he did not go after Steve Smith's ankles.
If true...if the players can prove that DC Greg Williams threatened to fine them if they did not do as told...it adds a new wrinkle to the motives the players were operating under.
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Why didn’t he name the Saints player who told him that? Why did he wait until now to say anything about it?
Just because this is the first time he said it publicly, doesn't mean he didn't tell anybody about it before.
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The Saints are just looking worse and worse. Between this kind of stuff and the spying on other teams evidence. If the evidence proves the allegations true
Talk about a low class organization. The NFL should come down really hard on them.
Players are suing the NFL for how they handle injuries/concussions, yet you've got coaches encouraging it and players doing nothing about that.
The Saints should have said something, someone should have reported something earlier or written an anonymous letter to ESPN/the NFL. If they want it to be their league, not the coaches or owner's league, they need to take some responsibility for this kind of stuff too.
Something should have been done much sooner
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If some action isn't taken against the players involved, it is a slap in the face to the players who were targeted.
Just because someone tells you to break the rules isn't an excuse to do so.
I also don't believe the fine aspect if they didn't do as told. That would have been easy enough to protest, blowing the whole thing wide open when it was happening.
At this point I doubt suspensions would be in order. My thinking is fines.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Cheaters never win....unless they are The Patriots, The Saints, or any MLB team... 
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If some action isn't taken against the players involved, it is a slap in the face to the players who were targeted.
Just because someone tells you to break the rules isn't an excuse to do so.
I also don't believe the fine aspect if they didn't do as told. That would have been easy enough to protest, blowing the whole thing wide open when it was happening.
At this point I doubt suspensions would be in order. My thinking is fines.
Yeah,, I agree, the "Being Fined' for not making what would be considered an illegal hit seems out of place in this situation. Not saying it didn't happen...I wasn't there, but it seems just a bit far fetched to me.
The Saints orgainzation from Loomis down seems to be infected with some kinda stupid bug.. add in the alligations of eavesdropping and that place is more disfunctional than the Browns.
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I think the NFLPA should kick any offending players out of any position of leadership in the NFLPA indefinitely.
It's crazy for the NFLPA to try to claim to want player safety when it has leaders who participated in such a thing.
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I could see them getting shut down for good.....and then replaced by LA!
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I could see them getting shut down for good.....and then replaced by LA!
That would be a rags to riches to rags story. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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 sorry I forgot the purple font........
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Saints' Vilma suspended for 2012 season (Entire Year)
Scott Fujita (3 Games), Anthony Hargrove (8 games) and Will Smith (4 Games Each) also suspended for role in Saints' "bounty" scandal
web page
Well we lose Fujita for 3 games, maybe he can be available for the remaining 13, since he has yet to be there for the full 16 for us. 
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If Fujita truly had knowledge of these bounties, etc. (and I don't know how he could say that he didn't), what a hypocrite. Out there trying to hurt guys, then advocating for player safety.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Should add that I think these are what was expected, and actually seems pretty fair to me. Hate that Fujita is linked in it all, but the three games signifies that he wasn't as 'guilty' as the others, still guilty though.
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
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I haven't read all the specifics as to why Vilma gets a year and some of the others get less, but it sounds fair to me.
The best thing these guys can do is to not appeal.
What hasn't been discussed as far as I know is how many players in the years in question sustained injuries against the Saints?
Were these just freak accidents or was a bounty paid when these players left the game??
Not that there would be recourse, but it would be interesting to know none the less.
I think I would just cut Scott Fujita. The more I think about it, I don't want him on my team. When you are a part of the funding process to deliberately knock guys out of games, you crossed a line I can't cross.
If he sticks around, I would hope a few team leaders on O like Joe T asked him to step aside. If he didn't, go to the coach and tell him you are injured until this punk is off the team, then limp around....see who the team wants more.....Joe T. or Scotty.
Beam out Scotty.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I read that Vilma was a notch below Greg Williams in the whole thing going down. Maybe he was the guy collecting money and deciding who won?
I like Scott Fujita, and we'll miss him for a few games, and maybe his suspension is unfair if it's true that he only took part in paying for positive plays from special teamers, but I think it had to be done. They have to make an example of these guys. You can't let this happen again.
I really didn't have a problem with Greg Williams' speech that was released a month ago, other than the part about targeting a guys knee, although if the play is clean? the play is clean.
Honestly, any of these former players who think being paid on top of the 6 or 7 figure incomes they already make, for hits leading to guys being carted off is "just football", need to maybe re-evaluate their lives and the way they look at people.
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Four players suspended only? Well you would think a lot more would be involved. As wonder if there will be more suspensions coming along other than four!?
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jc...
Vilma got the same punishment in terms of length of time (1 yr) as Sean Payton received. Sounds fair, right?
Vilma will lose a years salary, same as Sean Payton, right?
Vilma is losing approx 1/10 of his career earnings...based on a 10 year career.
Sean Peyton is losing approx 1/30 of his career earnings...based on a 30 year career.
Clearly, the football player is being punished more severely than his headcoach in terms of career earnings.
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Greg Williams kicked out of the league for at least a year and most probably will never be back in the league again as he's now seen as a pariah.
Clearly the player who (allegedly) aided in orchestration of the program itself isn't being punished as severely as the coach who (allegedly) orchestrated the program.
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Quote:
Vilma is losing approx 1/10 of his career earnings...based on a 10 year career.
Sean Peyton is losing approx 1/30 of his career earnings...based on a 30 year career.
Clearly, the football player is being punished more severely than his headcoach in terms of career earnings.
No, they are being punished equally. A year is a year. If a 20 year old kid and an 80 year old man both commit a felony and get 20 years in prison one will get out when he is 45, the other will likely die in prison... does that mean the punishment should be adjusted based on age?
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Tulsa...you will notice, I used the comparison between the two who got the same punishment?
Williams will most likely be back to coaching next season, as long as he does what the commissioner deems appropriate, during his timeout.
Williams appropriate conduct might include testifying against the Vilma and Willis during the appeals process.
There seems to be a problem with the information or evidence Goodell is relying on to justify his punishment of Vilma. Did Vilma throw $10k of his money into the pot as has been reported?
Player denials highlight Gregg Williams’ role in appeal process
May 2, 2012, 8:58 PM EDT
Former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams has confessed to administering a bounty system, accepting without appeal his indefinite suspension. When NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell considers Williams’ request for reinstatement after the season, Goodell “will give close attention to the extent to which Coach Williams cooperates with the NFL in any further proceedings.”
That broad term presumably includes appeal hearings conducted in connection with player suspensions. Given that both Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma and Saints defensive end Will Smith have strongly denied funding the bounty pool, testimony from Williams regarding the NFL’s assertion that Vilma and Smith “assisted” Williams with the establishment and funding of the bounty pool will go a long way toward confirming the NFL’s position via the appeal process.
For Williams, that’s a problem. He can’t return to the NFL unless he cooperates with “further proceedings,” but if that cooperation consists of testifying against his players in New Orleans, players in St. Louis or elsewhere may be even less inclined to respond to him.
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Last edited by mac; 05/03/12 08:46 AM.
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Quote:
There seems to be a problem with the information or evidence Goodell is relying on to justify his punishment of Vilma. Did Vilma throw $10k of his money into the pot as has been reported?
How is there a problem with it? None of it has been released.
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cooperation consists of testifying against his players in New Orleans, players in St. Louis or elsewhere may be even less inclined to respond to him.
web page
He might have worn a wire..they(Saints) seem to be good at that sort of thing
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I like how you have every year of Payton's possible coaching career being weighted equally. The few 25-50K years at the beginning building up to the point he is at now as a SB winning HC and ignoring the possibility he gets fired over this, has to spend years as a lesser-paid OC, etc.
also, Vilma is in year9 now and is only 30yo. there is a good chance he has a 15 year career (assuming this scandal doesn't blacklist him, which I don't think it will, but could)
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oh, and finally, as has been mentioned, Gregg Williams was the main coach responsible and he was banned indefinitely.
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let's be honest. the NFL had to send a message. the message was sent. I don't think a year suspension is out of line. and, i'm surprised more players weren't suspended.
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What was Payton's role in this whole thing? Was it just turning a blind-eye to what his assistant coach was doing with his players?
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What was Payton's role in this whole thing? Was it just turning a blind-eye to what his assistant coach was doing with his players?
At least that but the NFL had warned the organization to stop it after being notified that it was going on and evidently he, as the head coach, failed to monitor it and make sure it got stopped.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
jc...
Vilma got the same punishment in terms of length of time (1 yr) as Sean Payton received. Sounds fair, right?
Vilma will lose a years salary, same as Sean Payton, right?
Vilma is losing approx 1/10 of his career earnings...based on a 10 year career.
Sean Peyton is losing approx 1/30 of his career earnings...based on a 30 year career.
Clearly, the football player is being punished more severely than his headcoach in terms of career earnings.
Not really....players usually make more....that is the problem with your whole "union" take and stance when it comes to the poor "union" against the world.
These guys tried to hurt other "union" members. Does that register??
Quit sticking up for "union" members and not sticking up for others.
Obviously some of these guys don't see it as a "brotherhood".
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Not really....players usually make more....that is the problem with your whole "union" take and stance when it comes to the poor "union" against the world.
peen...really?...might want to check your facts in this case.
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These guys tried to hurt other "union" members. Does that register??
Do you really believe NFL players do or should take it easy on their opponents and fellow union members, because they are all members of the NFLPA?
Most football players understand the dangers of the game and accept the threat of injury as part of the game. Those who believe NFL football should be a "gentleman's sport" because everyone is a member of the Union, are out of touch with reality.
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Quit sticking up for "union" members and not sticking up for others.
peen...shame on me...I'm not following the crowd !!!
Never been a follower in my life peen, not gonna start now...
...besides, "If everybody had like minds, we would never learn."
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Do you really believe NFL players do or should take it easy on their opponents and fellow union members, because they are all members of the NFLPA?
Most football players understand the dangers of the game and accept the threat of injury as part of the game. Those who believe NFL football should be a "gentleman's sport" because everyone is a member of the Union, are out of touch with reality.
 Good Lord. You know very well he was referring to bounties and intent to injure, not the normal risks of playing professional football.
Solidarity! 
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
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Thanks, but he knows that. He just can't call a union member wrong, so he just starts his mumbo jumbo trying to twist and turn things in another direction.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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To which I, again, ask ...... what about all of the union members who were injured by their fellow union members taking cheap shots at them? Who protects them ....or is it enough that they get a pound of flesh from the coaches and GM involved, while the players who led the actions on the field are allowed to escape punishment scot free?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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What I want to know is why all the players didn't go to the union to advise they were "pressured" into taking part in the bounty.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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What I want to know is why all the players didn't go to the union to advise they were "pressured" into taking part in the bounty.
that's a damn fine question.
I can get it if one guy was pressured and felt he'd lose out on the job if he didn't play along.. that I get, But if 3 or 4 or 5 or more of the top players that are feeling pressure in this manner stand up, go to the league and say,, hey.., this is what's happening. I guarantee you,, it would stop and williams would ahve been fired on the spot...
And no player would have needed to feel threatened..
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What I want to know is why all the players didn't go to the union to advise they were "pressured" into taking part in the bounty.
I agree.
I bet that part of it was the fact that there were coaches and players who were team leaders both saying the same thing about taking out other players. If it was just coaches pushing the agenda, then perhaps there would have been players rebelling against it. However, when the entirety of the team's leadership is pushing an agenda, then it can appear to be the right course, even if it isn't.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Rex Ryan wrote last year about “dotting” opposing players
Posted by Mike Florio on May 6, 2012, 7:21 PM EDT
On March 2, the NFL told the world that the Saints had been using a bounty system for three straight seasons, offering players money for “cart-offs” and “knockouts.” On March 3, Jets coach Rex Ryan issued a statement claiming he has never used them.
“This is something that is being handled by the NFL office,” Ryan said. “I’ve never condoned it and I’ve never coached it.”
But while Ryan may not have condoned or coached the habit of offering money to players for knocking opposing players out of games (whether they leave on their own power or via a stretcher or a golf cart), Ryan has condoned — and coached — the habit of knocking opposing players out of games. We know this because Ryan said so in his 2011 book, Play Like You Mean It.
From pages 16-17 of the chapter called Blunt-Force Trauma: “Each game we might also designate an opposing player with a dot. Players don’t want to be dotted by the New York Jets, because that means we want that dude knocked out of the game. Of course, it has to be legal and by the book. We don’t play dirty, and no way will we intentionally hurt a player with an illegal, cheap shot. We dot players fair and square. There are players out there who think they are badasses, and you just might see two of our players knock the hell out of him. Pow! Pow! That’s our mentality. Everything we do is aggressive and, hey, we may make a mistake, but we will go one hundred miles per hour and we will knock the hell out of you. Big hits create turnovers. You haven’t been Punked — you’ve been Dotted!”
Last year, when I read Ryan’s book, I applied a Post-It note to that paragraph, but it didn’t strike me as anything scandalous or improper or worth mentioning in a separate post. In the wake of the Saints’ bounty investigation, the mentality exhibited by Ryan doesn’t seem all that different than the mentality underpinning the pool of cash that went to players for making big plays — whether interceptions or fumble recoveries or knocking “that dude” out of the game.
The only difference between what the Saints did and what Ryan does is that the Saints violated the salary cap by paying players for doing things they already were being paid to do. The Saints didn’t want to injure players, notwithstanding the cartoonishly graphic urgings of former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams. They simply wanted to knock players out of games. Just like Rex Ryan.
But since an attempt to knock a player out of a game necessarily may inflict injury on the player, the NFL felt compelled to take severe and swift action. So why has the punishment been confined only to the Saints?
The goal here isn’t to get the Jets in trouble. The goal is to illustrate that the rabbit hole goes far deeper than the NFL cares to admit. Instead, the league wants to pour cement in it, hammer the Saints in order to get everyone else’s attention, and move on.
Here’s hoping that the effort includes telling Rex Ryan that it’s no longer acceptable to “dot” opposing players.
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For the record, from the beginning of Bountygate, I have said it was wrong to offer money to the players, for injuring players.
This article might give a better understanding of how wide spread it is for teams and coaches to ask their players to pay particular attention to specific members on their opponents teams.
Rex Ryan targeted specific players ...
Some may not understand, but this type of encouragement from the coaches to their players goes on at all levels of football..high school, college and Pros. It is routine for coaches to single out specific members of an opponents team and encourage your players to hit that player as hard as you can.
I never heard a coach say he wanted a specific player injured, but coaches definitely wanted the best effort from his players, especially against some players. IMO, coaches use this tactic to challenge their own players (or team) to raise the level of their play...to play more aggressively. We are not talking about taking illegal shots that can be penalized, but legal hits.
Players in High School and College are rewarded, not with money, but with symbols such as the decal that Ohio State's players exhibit on their helmets...which are rewarded based on performance.
The idea of aggressive play being rewarded is engrained in our players by the time they reach the Pro level. Adding the money as incentive is where the Saints crossed the line, but it is not difficult to understand the use of such incentives to motivate your players, minus the pay.
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How do you "knock someone out of the game" without injuring them?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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What bugs me the most about all this is one point that I've not heard mentioned.
These players that agree to hit a player so hard that it would cause him to have to leave the game aren't thinking. They are hurting thier brothers.. thier union brothers .
Tackle them,, you bet,, make them know you mean business.. gotcha, make them know that if they come into your area, it's not going to be any fun at all.
BUT, Injure them on purpose? What are they, idiots?
I don't want to turn this into touch football.. not be any means. I like a good hit as much as anyone. I love seeing a running back like Kevin Mack, steamroll a player.. it's fun..Wouldn't want it to change.
But damn,, purposely knocking a guy out of a game? for me, that's going to far.. way way way too far.
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,635
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,635 |
In my opinion, Ryan and Williams are on opposite sides of a very, very thin line.
Ryan approaches it in the way I believe it should be. Play 100% and 100 mph all the time. Football is a mental/emotional game as much as it is physical, so if you can knock around the other team's "badass", that really gives your team a mental advantage. If you do it within the boundaries of the rules, I see no problem with it. There shouldn't be any rules on how hard you can hit someone, as long as the way you hit them is within the rules.
I relate this to hockey. If you lower your shoulder and put it into the opposing players chest (textbook clean hit) and knock them clear out of the rink (hit them really hard), then you shouldn't get a penalty. If your stick comes up high and you just tap them on the helmet/head/face, you should get a penalty, regardless of the force you use.
To me, Ryan is talking about the first type of hit. He's talking about hitting someone clean, but doing it really really hard, and I think that should be encouraged. Williams advocated doing the latter, and so he got what was coming, in my opinion.
"FIALURE IS NOT AN OPTION...!"
-mac
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,563
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,563 |
I don't have a problem with the way it was described in the excerpt from Ryans book..I don't take issue with him for wanting his guys to play all out, 100% of time. That's as it should be.
My problem is as much with the players that go along with intentionally injuring another player.. as it is with the coach that teaches or demands that act.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,887
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,887 |
To add to that point too, for as much of a frat party as he's been running in New York, I haven't seen anything (at least yet) where Ryan in any way offered, condoned, or turned a blind eye to financial incentives being offered to players who took an opposing player out of the game.
That's the central issue, IMO, behind Williams.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,147 |
Report: League “misrepresented” Gregg Williams’ interviews Posted by Mike Florio on May 7, 2012, 8:48 PM EDT When it comes to the question of whether the NFL should release all evidence related to the Saints alleged bounty program, the evidence in favor of putting all cards on the table continues to grow. The latest chunk of it comes from Mike Triplett of the New Orleans Times-Picayune, who buries a bombshell in an article regarding the fallout of the Anthony Hargrove declaration. Writes Triplett: “[A]ccording to a source close to [former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg] Williams, the NFL has also misrepresented what Williams said in interviews with the league. According to the source, Williams never admitted a ‘bounty program’ was in place and that the league ‘rephrased his statements to satisfy its needs.’ The source also said Williams never identified any players for their involvement in a pay-for-performance or bounty program.” Those are strong, stunning allegations. Given the mounting attacks on the quality of the league’s evidence, the time has come for the NFL to disclose it. All. Publicly. Every piece and shred of it. It’s far too late for the NFL to hide behind “personnel matters” and “privacy rights.” Through a series of detailed statements that the NFL has released containing summaries and characterizations of evidence, the reputations of Gregg Williams, Sean Payton, Joe Vitt, Mickey Loomis, Anthony Hargrove, Scott Fujita, Will Smith, and Jonathan Vilma forever have been sullied. The least the league can do at this point is share with all of us the evidence that justified publicly branding these eight men as cheaters, liars, and worse. This isn’t about exonerating Williams, who delivered a fatal blow to his own reputation the night before the Saints faced the 49ers in the 2011 NFC playoffs. But the league has painted all of eight men with the same broad brush. The time has come to take a scalpel to the evidence and figured out exactly who did what. web page
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