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it's funny how these same players were blaming the coaching staff for what happened. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...-investigation/it's funny how the coaches and owner have already apologized and admitted it happened: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/765377...e-bounty-systemthere was obviously a bounty scheme. the NFLPA is trying to air all the dirty laundry because they think it somehow makes them look better, when it just makes the NFL on a whole look worse (players, coaches, league). they should take their punishment and move on. now, they are complaining about a system of appeals when Fujita was one of the main NFLPA player rep's that agreed to the thing. it's silly and makes them look petty.
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I have faith that if it turns out that Brees and Fujita are correct, it will all come to light.
But folks, Goodell is no dummy. He's a smart guy who isn't about to take punitive measures without true and verifiable facts so support his position. he knows the entire league is watching.. so is the media and the fans., he's really not dumb enough to take the NFL down a path he's unsure of.
I just don't think he or the folks at the NFL are that dumb.
Personally, I don't know what's true, I have no access to facts. Just media reports.
But I don't think I've ever heard of anyone accused of any crime that didn't say they were innocent. so it shouldn't come as a surprise that these guys and thier lawyers are talking as they are..
I'd expect nothing less
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IMO- Other than Modells move to Baltimore, Goodell is the worst thing that's happened to the NFL in my lifetime.
A power hungry little man who commands the spotlight and cares more about his self image than the sport itself. The day he was named commissioner was a sad day for the sport.....
JMHO
Wow, I see it the opposite. As a commissioner, I think he is the best in any of the sports, and as good as any sport has had in a good while. He takes action against teams, players, owners. It's exactly what you want IMO.
Here's the problem. You make a sport a public event. You ask and expect the public to support it for your living. In every way, the sport is open to the public.
On the other hand, you make one man judge, jury and executioner. You play cloak and dagger then make judgements upon people as a whole based on circumstantial evidence that you hide from the public until you have no other choice and feel the heat heavily before you decide yo reveal it. After you do reveal it, there is still no smoking gun, yet you use that to ruin and defame the name of others.
You get a "special circumstance" from Congress in order to have a legal monoploy and then feel somehow you don't owe due process to your employees.
This whole thing stinks to high heaven and it seems that there is evidence pointing to other teams guilt of the same. Let's face it Peen, this same thing has been going on for decades. If the NFL truely wished to address bounties, they would have made this thing far more wide spread rather than singling one team to make an example out of.
Then the commissioner has stated he holds "coaches to a higher standard than players", then turns around and hands out the same punishment to both?
When do the people in charge get the blame only? You know, the bosses who set and enforce locker room dicipline? The players did not cook up or invent this. That was the defensive coaching staff. I'm not so upset by the Fujita suspension, but to give Vilma the same punishment as the head coach after stating you hold coaches more accountable than the players?
The man speaks out both sides of his mouth. He's power hungry and wants more publicity for himself. Just like some officiating crews, he wants the game centered around him, more than around the game itself.
I can't stand the man for taking those responsible for implementing this program and giving one of the players the same punishment when he has plainly stated that management is more accountable than players.
He's a bold face liar!
Yes that's just my opinion, but I base it on hearing what the man said, and then watching what he's done. After that, I can't have an ounce of respect for then man period.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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You play cloak and dagger then make judgements upon people as a whole based on circumstantial evidence that you hide from the public until you have no other choice and feel the heat heavily before you decide yo reveal it.
Circumstantial evidence? who said? the players? The players attorneys?
The thing is, that argument holds water IF it's circumstantial. if it turns out to be strong evidence that clearly shows guilt, then there isn't a damn thing wrong with what Goodell has done.
I'm no lawyer, I don't play one on TV and I didn't stay at a holiday inn express last night.. But, I've yet to hear of a person accused of anything readily admit guilt.
I mean, even the kid that killed all those other kids in Chardon a few months back, just pleaded not guilty.
Evidence in that case is as clear as a bell.., he did it, that's it.. but he pleaded not guilty. (Yes, I recognize it's done that way to try and work the system in the clients favor and I recognize it's apples and oranges but you get my drift here)
bottom line, I didn't expect the players to just sit back and say, yeah,, we did it,, we're wrong, lock us up and throw away the key.  that would have been rather unique.,.
At some point, this is going to hit an impartial court.. and when it does, it's not going to be he said, she said.. one side will either prove guilt, or the they won't. we'll see.
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Why would the NFL do something so Public, if they had No Evidence?
I doubt they'd even go forward with only circumstantial evidence...
You can't just be suspending people because you THINK they did something..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Why would the NFL do something so Public, if they had No Evidence?
I doubt they'd even go forward with only circumstantial evidence...
You can't just be suspending people because you THINK they did something..
Exactly my point. no way Goodell goes out this far if he can't prove things.
Just no freakin way.
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it's funny how these same players were blaming the coaching staff for what happened.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...-investigation/
nolo...first, the information you are using is not the "latest".
Try reading the latest...
Joe Vitt denies pledging money to 'bounty' program
web page
League confirms Vitt wasn’t accused of contributing to bounty pool
web page
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just because the players (and some coaches) are changing their tune every 5 seconds doesn't mean that I cannot hold them accountable for what they said previously.
the whole thing stinks on both sides. the NFLPA seems like it's going to eventually get it's way and force out most of the evidence. which, is going to make a mess on both sides. more player suspensions will likely have to come about along with hurting the NFL image moving forward (which hurts the players as well).
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To be fair to the players, there was far, far more evidence of the pay-for-performance claims than the bounty claims. In fact, the Harper claim was the only one the league showed that resulted in a payout to a player for knocking a player out of a game.
Once again, it was the coaches who set this up and promoted it. And it was Goodell who stated he held management to a higher standard than the players. Yet it was Goodell who handed the exact same sentence to Vilma as he did Peyton.
His actions do not line up with his claims. period.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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The thing is, that argument holds water IF it's circumstantial. if it turns out to be strong evidence that clearly shows guilt, then there isn't a damn thing wrong with what Goodell has done.
How so? Goodell plainly stated he held management to a higher standard than players before this all unraveled. Yet once bounty gate ended, he handed out equal punishment to vilma as he did the coaches. When after all, it is the coaches who are in charge of the players and set this thing up.
How is that living up to what Goodell said? So you think the people in charge of the locker room, the bosses, who set up this entire program, don't hold more of the responsability than the employees who work under them? Especially after Goodell saying he holds them to a higher standard than the players?
Surely you jest......
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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To be fair to the players, there was far, far more evidence of the pay-for-performance claims than the bounty claims. In fact, the Harper claim was the only one the league showed that resulted in a payout to a player for knocking a player out of a game.
Once again, it was the coaches who set this up and promoted it. And it was Goodell who stated he held management to a higher standard than the players. Yet it was Goodell who handed the exact same sentence to Vilma as he did Peyton.
His actions do not line up with his claims. period.
well, Greg Williams was the one who was the "head" of it and his punishment is to be exiled indefinitely with a very real chance he never gets to coach again (perhaps he can work in the league office eventually to help make sure something like this doesn't happen again)
Payton was exiled for a full year date - to - date. Not a season suspension that doesn't include OTAs, possible training camp, etc. like the players.
So, Vilma gets the 3rd harshest penalty given out.
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it's funny how these same players were blaming the coaching staff for what happened.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...-investigation/
nolo...first, the information you are using is not the "latest".
Try reading the latest...
Joe Vitt denies pledging money to 'bounty' program
web page
League confirms Vitt wasn’t accused of contributing to bounty pool
web page
It should be noted, the NFL released their evidence for Bountygate on Monday, to the players and then the media. Included in that evidence was the claim that Saints LB coach (now interim HC) Joe Vitt contributed $5,000 toward the bounty on Favre.
In the release of the evidence on Monday, the NFL produced a handwritten note that had Vitt's name written next to the dollar amount $5000 followed by the words, "QB out pool"
...Joe Vitt $5000 "QB out pool"
That handwritten note was used by the NFL as part of its evidence against Vitt, without naming the source.
Now, read this article from NFL.com....
New Orleans Saints coach Joe Vitt expands on denials of NFL claims in interview with Times-Picayune
06/20/12 6:23PM
New Orleans Saints assistant head coach Joe Vitt spoke with The Times-Picayune on Wednesday after releasing a statement earlier in the day denying some of the NFL's latest claims against him. He said he also called NFL commissioner Roger Goodell earlier in the day and offered to take a lie detector test.
Like others before him, Vitt continued the debate over semantics in this investigation. Vitt confirmed the existence of "cart-off" hits as part of a Saints' pay-for-performance program that rewarded players for a variety of big plays. But he insisted they were clean, legal hits that led to opponents' injuries.
As Vitt described it, "A cart-off is a legal hit. Knock the taste out of their mouth, they have to take a couple plays off and may come back into the game."
Vitt, however, said he has repeatedly insisted to NFL investigators that the Saints' defenders never targeted opponents with a specific intent to injure, never attempted to injure opponents with illegal hits and never singled out opponents with bounties on them.
"I stated from Day 1 to investigators - and I hope they took good notes - our players have done nothing wrong. Nothing wrong," Vitt said. "Our players never crossed the white lines with an intent to injure anybody."
Vitt said he hasn't wanted to speak up too much against the NFL's investigation because he didn't want to interfere with the players' appeal process, but he felt compelled to defend himself after some of the league's latest accusations.
Clearly upset with the fact that the suspended Saints coaches, players and management don't have a chance to clear their names in an open forum, Vitt said,
"The bylaws of the National Football League supersede the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights."
Specifically, Vitt was upset by the league's recent claim that he contributed $5,000 to a bounty against Minnesota Vikings quarterback Brett Favre in the 2010 NFC championship game. Here is the complete statement he released earlier Wednesday.
In a more detailed conversation with The Times-Picayune, Vitt also took issue with the league's characterization that he had corroborated the existence of the team's bounty program.
Vitt confirmed that he told league investigators that the Saints used terms like "cart-offs" and "whacks" (a legal hit that didn't result in injury), among other such details. Vitt, however, said he did not corroborate any of the league's more sweeping claims that the team had a "bounty" system in place.
Vitt again stressed that he had never heard the word "bounty" until the NFL's investigators brought up the term earlier this year. And he denied the existence of any bounties or any bounty program being in place. Vitt admitted that a pay-for-performance program was in place but said the league never asked about a pay-for-performance program - which means he wasn't intentionally lying when he denied the existence of a "bounty" program.
As for the specific bounty that was allegedly offered against Favre, Vitt said, "I never heard that. And that's exactly what I told investigators and told the commissioner. I never heard a player ever talk about putting Favre out of the game or injuring another player."
Vitt said he did confirm to the league, however, that the general attitude in the defensive meeting room the night before that game may have gotten "out of hand."
"We were fired up the night before the NFC championship game," Vitt said. "It was a fired-up meeting. It was a fever pitch and we had to have a fever pitch because it was a heck of a game. We were four quarters away from going to the Super Bowl."
Vitt was incensed by the fact that the NFL shared evidence with players and the media Monday suggesting that he pledged $5,000 toward a bounty on Favre. Vitt's name had been written next to that dollar amount and the words "QB out pool" on a handwritten note that the league used as part of its evidence, without naming the source.
Vitt said the NFL never showed him such evidence or accused him of offering such a bounty before he was suspended six games earlier this year. And he said Goodell confirmed to him that he didn't ever suspect Vitt of contributing money to any bounties or to the team's pay-for-performance program.
Vitt added that every time he has talked with Goodell, he believes the commissioner has been "absolutely great" and that the conversations have been positive. He remains disturbed, however, by the fact that the NFL is relying on such questionable evidence for some of its claims against the Saints.
Vitt said if that piece of paper was inaccurate or falsified, then it should call into question the authenticity of other pieces of the league's supposed evidence as well.
"There's gotta be some concerns from the league's standpoint and anybody's standpoint about the authenticity of any of these documents. I think that's a huge concern," Vitt said. "It looks like that document has been falsified or tampered with. What kind of credibility do they have if they take documents like that and show it to players?"
Vitt declined to name the suspected source of that document or any unnamed accusers who have provided testimony to the league. But Vitt said if this case ever gets to a court of law, he doesn't believe a lot of the accusations will hold up.
"The truth is starting to come out," Vitt said.
When asked why he and other suspended members of the Saints' management and coaching staff didn't put up much of a public fight when they were punished earlier this year, Vitt again said he didn't want to comment since the players' appeals process is still ongoing, but he said he would comment in the future. And he said part of the reason is that the coaches don't have the same kind of appeals process available to them that players have - and certainly not that most average people have available.
"But we're gonna keep fighting the fight. We're not gonna back down," Vitt said.
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Vitt questions whether bounty evidence has been “falsified or tampered with”
Posted by Mike Florio on June 21, 2012, 11:17 AM EDT
The floodgates officially are open.
After weeks of silence, which many believed was motivated by fear of additional sanctions from the league office, the coaches who have been suspended as part of the bounty/pay-for-performance program are beginning to speak out aggressively regarding the league’s case against players accused of offering, paying, or receiving money for inflicting injury.
It has begun with Saints interim head coach/assistant head coach/linebackers coach Joe Vitt. In the wake of Wednesday’s statement in which he expressed dismay over the sheet of paper that accuses him of putting up $5,000 for the alleged bounty on Brett Favre in the 2009 NFC title game, Vitt elaborated in remarks to Mike Triplett of the New Orleans Times-Picayune.
“There’s gotta be some concerns from the league’s standpoint and anybody’s standpoint about the authenticity of any of these documents,” Vitt said regarding the key piece of paper that apparently lists the money pledged for the 2009 NFC title game. “I think that’s a huge concern. It looks like that document has been falsified or tampered with. What kind of credibility do they have if they take documents like that and show it to players?”
He’s right. The one useful needle in the 50,000-page haystack contains a major flaw. The notes prepared by a still-unknown person suggest that Vitt ponied up $5,000 to whoever knocked Favre out of the game. So if as to Vitt the notes aren’t reliable, how are they reliable as to Jonathan Vilma (who is shown as kicking in $10,000) or anyone else?
The league has said that the offer appearing on the notes was corroborated by three people: Gregg Williams, Mike Ornstein, and someone whom the league won’t name. But Ornstein has said he didn’t tell the league Vilma had offered $10,000.
Williams hasn’t said anything, but there’s a chance Williams will be emboldened by Vitt’s decision to talk tough.
“I stated from Day 1 to investigators — and I hope they took good notes — our players have done nothing wrong. Nothing wrong,” Vitt said. “Our players never crossed the white lines with an intent to injure anybody.”
Apart from the issue of innocence or guilt (and as I’ll explain during and after today’s PFT Live the issue of guilt or innocence really is a question of semantics), Vitt has a problem with the league’s procedure for passing judgment on the players.
“The bylaws of the National Football League supersede the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights,” Vitt said. While the players aren’t “on trial” in the criminal sense of the word (and thus not entitled to the protections of the Constitution), the fact remains that the NFL and the NFLPA have crafted a quasi-judicial procedure for handling matters of discipline without an outside person deciding whether the player did what he’s accused of doing. And the procedure that the NFL administers must be fair and impartial, especially where the player loudly disputes the allegations against him.
Without a fair process, it’s impossible to get to the truth. And so people like Vitt have taken matters into their own hands.
“The truth is starting to come out,” Vitt said. “[W]e’re gonna keep fighting the fight. We’re not gonna back down.”
Moving forward, it’ll be interesting to see whether Williams or anyone else follows Vitt’s lead in trying to get the truth out, whatever the truth may be.
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Someone is lying like hell...either Vitt or the NFL. If it is Vitt who is lying, why wouldn't Goodell nail him with lying or covering up his involvement in the bounty program?
It should be noted, it did not take the NFL long to back down on their claim that Vitt contributed*5k to the Favre bounty, even though Vitt's name appeared on the list which was used as evidence to used by the NFL and presented to the media?
A little more on this paper that had Vitt's name on it...it was "a list" of contributers to the bounty on Favre.
...at the top of the list it said "Minny Game" and "QB Out"
...underneath that heading it had a list of names and dollar amounts
...names such as Saint players Vilma, Grant
...the name of Saints team consultant, Mike Ornstein, was on the list.
...and the list with the heading "Minny Game"...had Vitt's name, with $5000 written beside his name, with QB OUT beside the dollar amount.
Minny Game
Joe Vitt....$5000....QB Out
Someone is lying...either Joe Vitt or Goodell and the NFL.
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I can understand some wanting to forget about this bounty crap but what is going on affects one of our own players, Scott Fujita. The following article by Mike Florio raises some serious questions about how the NFL perceived the information they gathered and presented as "evidence" of a bounty program.
At the end of the article is a very good video presentation by Mike Florio that helps to explain some of the circumstances. When this Bountygate story first broke, Florio, who previously was a lawyer, was squarely in the NFL's corner about their claims against the Saint coaches and players. As the NFL's "evidence" has been made public, Florio has become more skeptical of the entire situation.
Where this ends, I have no idea...
To hear the video, click the link at the bottom and scroll down to the end of the article.
Evidence against Fujita shows that bounty case is all about semantics
Posted by Mike Florio on June 21, 2012, 8:45 PM EDT
Lost in the debate regarding whether Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma offered a $10,000 bounty on Brett Favre prior to the 2009 NFC title game and whether former Saints defensive end Anthony Hargrove said, “Bobby, give me my money” after it appeared Favre had been knocked out of the 2009 NFC title game is the fact that former Saints linebacker Scott Fujita faces no specific allegation that he contributed to the alleged bounty on Favre — or to any specific bounty on any specific player.
Instead, the bounty case against Fujita consists of two claims: that he contributed money for the pool that paid players for sacks and forced fumbles (which necessarily isn’t and can’t be a “bounty”), and that he contributed $2,000 to the “general” pay-for-performance pool prior to the 2009 NFC title game.
(The latter comes from the same notes that the NFL regarded as sufficiently unreliable to result in Saints assistant head coach Joe Vitt even being asked about whether he contributed $5,000 to the alleged bounty on Favre. But those same notes nevertheless have fueled Fujita’s punishment.)
So why has Fujita been suspended three games to start the 2012 regular season?
The answer comes from the league’s focus on the payment of cash for big, clean, legal hits that caused a player to leave, for part of the game (clumsily dubbed a “cart-off” by the Saints) or for the rest of the game (less clumsily labeled a “knockout”). That’s why the NFL seized so aggressively upon Mike Triplett’s recent interview with Saints linebacker Scott Shanle, who as Triplett writes “admitted some wrongdoing on the Saints’ part, including the existence of rewards for legal hits that led to injuries and terms such as ‘cart-offs’ and ‘knockouts.’”
And so the league’s case against the players amounts to a contention that the pay-for-performance program included payments for big, clean, legal hits that caused a player to exit the field, whether for one or more plays or the rest of the game. The problem with the league’s logic is that, even without the extra cash, professional football players (especially defensive players) already are paid to deliver big, clean, legal hits. The goal in delivering big, clean, legal hits is to break the opponent’s will or, at a minimum, get him thinking not about doing his own job, but about avoiding another big, clean, legal hit.
An unspoken (usually) goal of delivering big ,clean, legal hits is to make opposing players unavailable to play. As long as the big hit is clean and legal, there’s no rule (yet) against trying to hit a player so hard that he can’t keep playing.
Perhaps that’s why the NFL has felt compelled to make its case seem stronger than it is, and to make the Saints’ behavior seem more sinister than it was. By painting a picture of players who were looking to go beyond the rules to inflict injuries, the league successfully has glossed over the philosophical question of whether a player who already is paid to deliver big, clean, legal hits should be punished for receiving a little extra pay to (wait for it) deliver big, clean, legal hits.
It’s not that the Saints were trying to injure players. It’s that the Saints were offering extra money for big, clean, legal hits that advanced the pre-existing objective of victory through attrition, a concept that has been part of the game since the game was invented.
This inconsistency first surfaced when comparing the huge gap between Gregg Williams’ cartoonish remarks the night before the January 2012 playoff game against the 49ers and the absence of any extracurricular hits or stomps or knee-whackings or conduct other than big, clean, legal hits. (Of course, most of the big, clean, legal hits applied in that game were applied to members of the Saints.) But the distinction between talk and action largely has been lost in the stream of flawed evidence leaked and/or published by the league.
So instead of debating whether it’s fair and just to dub as a “bounty” program money paid to a player for doing the job he already is paid to do, much of the debate has centered the accuracy and credibility of the league’s interpretation of items like: the Anthony Hargrove declaration; the Mike Ornstein email of September 2011; the bounty ledger that was summarized for Jason Cole of Yahoo! Sports; the specific proof that Jonathan Vilma offered a $10,000 bounty on Brett Favre; and the question of whether sideline video from the 2009 NFC title game actually proves that Hargrove said, “Bobby, give me my money.”
Maybe that’s precisely what the league has wanted. Maybe the league hopes to avoid a full-blown debate on what’s really going on here. Players were paid extra money for doing the jobs they already were paid to do. Absent proof linking the pooled cash to dirty or illegal hits aimed at inflicting injury, the Saints did nothing between the white lines that any other team ever sets out to do. Instead, some members of the Saints simply got a little extra money for doing what they already were supposed to do.
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I'd rather we cut Scott months ago.
If he wants to hang around and be an LB Coach kind of guy. Sure.
As a player? No thanks.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I'd rather we cut Scott months ago.
If he wants to hang around and be an LB Coach kind of guy. Sure.
As a player? No thanks.
Yeah, Fujita has really lost a pair of steps as opposed to losing a step. He's been hurt every year he's been a Brown, and he hasn't been hugely impactful compared to his salary.
I would rather see what the rooks can do. I really think that JMJ is the future at one spot, and Acho just might be a nice situational guy at the other outside spot.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Fujita to Goodell at appeal hearing: “What the hell are you doing, Roger?”
Posted by Mike Florio on June 22, 2012, 8:48 PM EDT
Lawyer Peter Ginsberg wasn’t the only one who had tough words for Commissioner Roger Goodell at Monday’s appeal hearing in the bounty case. Browns linebacker Scott Fujita was far more brief, and far more pointed.
“I saw [Goodell] in the [appeal] hearings and he offered to shake all of our hands,” Fujita told Dave Zirin of SiriusXM Radio’s Edge of Sports Radio, via SI.com. ”Some of the other players didn’t, but I went ahead and shook his hand, and I just said to him, ‘What the hell are you doing, Roger?‘”
How did the Commissioner respond?
“He had nothing to say,” Fujita said. ”His face sure turned red, though.”
So much for the draft-night man hugs.
Fujita also addressed the merits of the situation, echoing the notion that the Saints had a pay-for-performance system coupled with tough talk but no deliberate intent to injure.
“I know exactly what [happened] and what didn’t,” Fujita said. ”The problem with this whole thing is that it’s just an unfortunate situation where you have a defensive coordinator [Gregg Williams] who I like a lot, but said a lot of really vulgar, inappropriate, outlandish things. You couple that with some guys who occasionally throw in some money for big plays — which I have admitted to doing — and it becomes a perfect storm, and also it comes at a time politically when I think the league was looking for something like this.
“So, it’s unfortunate. It’s unfortunate that a lot of players have been dragged into it when the reality is it’s just a kind of loose, joking around, performance-type system of motivation coupled with some really, really inappropriate language that I’m sensitive to, but again, it is just language.”
Fujita apparently wants the NFL to focus on what the program was, and to clarify what it wasn’t.
“People said I was stupid for confessing to paying for big plays. I didn’t think of that as a big deal,” Fujita said. ”Is it against the rules? Technically, yeah, it’s against the rules, but that’s the way it was done when I was a young player and I’m not ashamed of that. If that’s what I’m going down for, let’s call it for what it is. The problem is that the league has billed this thing as being this super-organized pay-to-injure scheme, which it never was.
“Now, it turns out when the evidence is getting released that there is actually very little to nothing on anything pay-to-injure related, especially as it pertains to me. So, again, if it’s pay-for-performance, let’s call it what it is, and if I have to take my medicine for that, I’ll do that, and we’ll move on, but that’s not what the league has billed this as.”
Fujita explained that the issue is about more than the money he’ll lose during a three-game suspension.
“Another thing I have a hard time with is that a lot of people just say, ‘You only have a couple games [suspension]. Just be glad with what you got. Stop complaining and move on.’ It’s more than just a couple games,” Fujita said. ”My reputation is a lot more valuable to me than three game checks. So for someone to say ‘just take your medicine and move on,’ my response is no. If you’re accused of something you didn’t do, and they were going to not only ruin your reputation, but also take a lot of money away from you, you would not just lie down. So it’s troubling. It’s been hard for me. It’s been a stress at home. I’m lucky to have such a supportive family with young kids who don’t understand any of this kind of stuff so that brightens my day, but it has been very hard for me.”
The good news is that the discussion of the actual or perceived flaws in the NFL’s investigation could be prompting the league to focus on precisely why the players are being disciplined — for contributing to and participating in a pay-for-performance system that created an incentive to inflict injury on opponents (regardless of whether they actually did) and not for deliberately attempting to inflict injury in exchange for cash.
The bad news is that it’s too late to put the bounty toothpaste back in the tube. The Saints were painted as a marauding gang of Gilloolys in March; calling it what it really was in June will do nothing to change the perception that has been cemented into the public’s collective consciousness.
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IMO no one really cares about Fujita in the grand scheme of things..
He should just let it go..
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At this point, I think Fujita is thinking about his next career, whether it be in coaching or the broadcast booth. He's intelligent, articulate, and telegenic - he'd be a natural at color commentator. But his image needs rehabilitating after all this.
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IMO no one really cares about Fujita in the grand scheme of things..
He should just let it go..
I believe that when a man feels he is being falsely accused and his character os being questioned, the only option one has is to stand and fight.
Image? Well, Mangini and Spy Gated din't exactly endear him to the league and he's working for ESPN. And then there's Michael Irvin. I could go on......
But his "image" won't prevent him from being a commentator. I mean he didn't pull a Marv Albert or anything.
 Just sayin'......
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At this point, I think Fujita is thinking about his next career, whether it be in coaching or the broadcast booth. He's intelligent, articulate, and telegenic - he'd be a natural at color commentator. But his image needs rehabilitating after all this.
Is Scott Fujita's involvement in Bountygate a distraction to this team?
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Only if they have ADD. Hey look! A bunny!
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You saw my bunny?
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 I'm just saying that we will be hearing about this during the games, because Fujita is associated with the story, so by association we will be linked to Bountygate, especially with his rebel stance and blatant disregard for authority (the Commissioner).
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jc
I think the whole boutygate thing has been totally blown outta proportion from the get-go...
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Bounty coaches fear further sanctions from league office
Posted by Mike Florio on June 26, 2012, 10:19 PM EDT
Saints quarterback Drew Brees apparently has been informed correctly.
In reference to men like Sean Payton and Gregg Williams, who have said nothing since players raised questions regarding the quality of the league’s bounty investigation, Brees told Dan Patrick on Tuesday that Brees has been “informed a lot of those coaches feel there are further sanctions being held over their head if they don’t cooperate with the investigation.”
Brees comments mesh with information that multiple sources have shared with PFT in recent days. We’re told that Payton and Williams have been quiet because they are concerned about retribution from the league office, if they publicly undermine the league’s position regarding the player suspensions in any way.
As one source explained it, the scorched-earth investigation that the NFL conducted in late 2011, which included a review of the Saints’ computer system, may have yielded other information on which additional sanctions could be based, if the league is so inclined.
There’s currently no evidence that the fears are anything other than unfounded, and the league has said or done nothing to threaten the coaches with further sanctions. Indeed, NFL general counsel Jeff Pash said on Friday’s PFT Live that Williams can speak publicly about the bounty situation, if he wants. Payton presumably can, too.
Interim head coach Joe Vitt, suspended six games by the NFL, already has expressed disagreement with the contents of the most important document in the bounty case — the notes of alleged contributions to the quarterback bounty pool before the 2009 NFC title game. The notes claim Vitt kicked in $5,000, and Vitt vehemently disputed that information, suggesting at one point that the bounty evidence may have been “falsified or tampered with.”
The fact that Vitt spoke out doesn’t make it unreasonable for Payton and Williams to be concerned. Still, we’ve heard from multiple sources that Williams wants to comment publicly, specifically regarding the league’s contention that Williams corroborated the claim that linebacker Jonathan Vilma offered $10,000 to anyone who knocked Brett Favre out of the 2009 NFC title game. But Williams to date has been muzzled by his lawyer, who apparently believes that any effort to dispute the notion that Williams threw a player under the bounty bus will be overcome by the impact of disputing the league’s evidence on Williams’ ability to be reinstated after the 2012 season.
So Brees’ sources are solid. Payton and Williams want to coach again, and they believe that, for now, silence is the best way to make that happen.
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jc
I think the whole boutygate thing has been totally blown outta proportion from the get-go...
td...it's been my opinion from the beginning, this case is going to used by the NFL as part of their defense in another, much larger, much more important and potentially, much more costly case for the NFL...the concussion litigation.
Roger is trying to set the table for NFL lawyers so they can use this so called "Bounty case" as part of the NFL defense in the concussion case.
IMO, the NFL wants to be able to point to the players and say something along the line of...how can the NFL be held responsible for concussions when the players set up a bounty system (like the Saints did), to hurt their fellow NFL players?
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The players really need to take their medicine and move on. If this thing gets into criminal court, it would not be good for anyone involved. This is Tonya Harding stuff.
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jc
I think the whole boutygate thing has been totally blown outta proportion from the get-go...
td...it's been my opinion from the beginning, this case is going to used by the NFL as part of their defense in another, much larger, much more important and potentially, much more costly case for the NFL...the concussion litigation.
Roger is trying to set the table for NFL lawyers so they can use this so called "Bounty case" as part of the NFL defense in the concussion case.
IMO, the NFL wants to be able to point to the players and say something along the line of...how can the NFL be held responsible for concussions when the players set up a bounty system (like the Saints did), to hurt their fellow NFL players?
I really hate to say it, but I agree with mac.
This whole thing is a sham from the get-go.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
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jc
I think the whole boutygate thing has been totally blown outta proportion from the get-go...
td...it's been my opinion from the beginning, this case is going to used by the NFL as part of their defense in another, much larger, much more important and potentially, much more costly case for the NFL...the concussion litigation.
Roger is trying to set the table for NFL lawyers so they can use this so called "Bounty case" as part of the NFL defense in the concussion case.
IMO, the NFL wants to be able to point to the players and say something along the line of...how can the NFL be held responsible for concussions when the players set up a bounty system (like the Saints did), to hurt their fellow NFL players?
I really hate to say it, but I agree with mac.
This whole thing is a sham from the get-go.
I have to say, it sounds possible to me
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The players really need to take their medicine and move on. If this thing gets into criminal court, it would not be good for anyone involved. This is Tonya Harding stuff.
mourg...if you were not guilty of what the NFL is charging, would "you" simply "take their medicine and move on" ?
I know I wouldn't...
Might say something about those who choose to stand and fight for what they feel is right.
Thank goodness there are people who refuse to just give in when things get tough...what a boring world this would be if everyone simply submitted to the powerful.
BTW, I have to hand it to the Saints acting HC, Joe Vitt...he pretty much told Godell and his thugs to stick their bounty claims where the sun does not shine.
Vitt even offered to take a lie detector test...sure would like to Roger take a lie detector test.
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jc
I think the whole boutygate thing has been totally blown outta proportion from the get-go...
td...it's been my opinion from the beginning, this case is going to used by the NFL as part of their defense in another, much larger, much more important and potentially, much more costly case for the NFL...the concussion litigation.
Roger is trying to set the table for NFL lawyers so they can use this so called "Bounty case" as part of the NFL defense in the concussion case.
IMO, the NFL wants to be able to point to the players and say something along the line of...how can the NFL be held responsible for concussions when the players set up a bounty system (like the Saints did), to hurt their fellow NFL players?
Perhaps there was a man on the grassy knoll.
It's just as likely that the NFL will pass liability to the equipment manufactures. I'm sure with their plethora of mouth peaces that they can tie any class action suit up in litigation for years.
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mourg...if you were not guilty of what the NFL is charging, would "you" simply "take their medicine and move on" ?
You assume they are innocent, and before you spout any "innocent till proven.." crap..
They've already been FOUND guilty. That's why they were suspended.
It's over. Move on.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Vilma complaint outlines all aleged flaws in bounty case
Posted by Mike Florio on July 1, 2012, 11:26 PM EDT
Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma may have passed on the opportunity to prove his case for innocence in front of Commissioner Roger Goodell, but Vilma has unloaded in a 27-page, 180-paragraph civil complaint.
In Vilma’s new lawsuit against the NFL, a copy of which PFT has obtained, lawyer Peter Ginsberg details every alleged flaw in the case against Vilma, and to a certain extent the other players suspended for involvement in the Saints bounty program.
Heavy on factual contentions and light on legal theories, the lawsuit requests only two things: (1) an order of “specific performance” requiring Goodell to rule on the bounty appeals; and (2) a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction preventing the league from implementing the suspension against Vilma if the suspension is upheld.
Along the way, Ginsberg makes the following claims on behalf of Vilma:
1. Vilma was willing to meet with Goodell before the one-year suspension was imposed, but Vilma wanted to review in advance the materials gathered by the league “‘which the NFL contend[ed] provided a basis to investigate Vilma.’” In exchange, “Vilma offered to provide the NFL with complete ‘detail[] [of] Vilma’s knowledge regarding [the Bounty Program] allegations.” The league declined to do so, so Vilma declined to meet with Goodell.
2. Goodell issued a “gag order” on former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, preventing him from speaking to about about the investigation.
3. Goodell made “personal conclusions and described possible discipline” of players in a March 21 press release, even though he had not disciplined any players and planned to eventually serve as the supposedly impartial arbitrator.
Ginsberg also outlines the alleged flaws in the investigation, focusing on the follwing:
1. The refusal to make certain witnesses available at the June 18 appeal hearing;
2. The failure to deliver the exhibits to be introduced at the June 18 appeal hearing within three days (i.e., 72 hours) of the start of the hearing;
3. The production of only 16 exhibits consisting of 182 pages from a file that supposedly includes 18,000 total documents and 50,000 total pages;
4. The failure to produce any notes taken during witness interviews;
5. The failure to produce original documents;
6. The refusal to produce any potentially exculpatory evidence;
7. The reliance on documents generated after the discipline were imposed;
8. The alleged mischaracterization of the Anthony Hargrove declaration;
9. The alleged mischaracterization of the Anthony Hargrove video from the 2009 NFC title game;
10. The alleged mischaracterization of the September 2011 Mike Ornstein email message regarding an alleged $5,000 bounty on Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers;
11. The failure to include the September 2011 Mike Ornstein email message in the evidence to be introduced at the appeal hearing;
12. The alleged mischaracterization of the 2009 email message from Ornstein to Williams, which Vilma claims reflects a commitment by Ornstein to contribute money to Williams’ charitable organization (Ornstein allegedly explained this to Goodell, urging him to confirm it via the charity’s financial documents);
13. Ornstein’s contradiction of the claim that he corroborated the allegation that Vilma placed a $10,000 bounty on Brett Favre prior to the 2009 NFC title game;
14. The failure to make Ornstein available to testify at the June 18 appeal hearing or to produce notes of his interview(s);
15. The strong denial by Saints interim coach Joe Vitt that Vilma placed a bounty on Favre or anyone else;
16. The failure of the league to disclose that Williams never acknowledged to the NFL the existence of a bounty program;
17. The alleged problems with the ledger information apparently leaked to Jason Cole of Yahoo! Sports on June 1, 2012, and the failure of the league to introduce the ledger as evidence at the June 18 appeal hearing;
18. The reliance upon the statements of Mike Cerullo, a disgruntled former Saints employee;
19. The problems with the typewritten version of handwritten notes regarding the bounty on Vikings quarterback Brett Favre, which Vilma contends were created “well after” the 2009 NFC title game;
20. The failure to issue a ruling on the appeal by Monday June 25, 2012, one full week after appeal hearings at which Vilma offered no substantive defense.
It’s unknown whether Vilma will get a chance to prove all of these allegations, and whether his ability to do so will result in his suspension being overturned. It’s clear, however, that “Phase Two” has begun — and that it could last a lot longer than Phase One.
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Vilma suit outs Mike Cerullo as bounty whistleblower
Posted by Mike Florio on July 2, 2012, 8:17 AM EDT
The latest Jonathan Vilma lawsuit blows the whistle on many things regarding the bounty investigation. It also blows the whistle on the notorious whistleblower.
Though it’s been widely rumored that former Saints defensive assistant Mike Cerullo is the person who resurrected the bounty probe by reaching out to the league office in 2011, Vilma’s civil complaint makes it clear that Vilma believes Cerullo created the present mess.
Vilma also believes that Cerullo is acting out of spite. At paragraph 105 of the complaint, Vilma alleges that the Saints fired Cerullo after he “disappear[ed] from the Club during the 2009 Season and provid[ed] a pretextual excuse that was shown to be inaccurate” and he “disappear[ed] from the Club during the week leading up to the Super Bowl in 2010, again giving a pretextual excuse that was shown to be inaccurate.”
After the Super Bowl win, Cerullo received “a cubic zirconia Super Bowl ring facsimile rather than a genuine Super Bowl ring, for which Cerullo has strenuously and vehemently expressed his resentment.”
At paragraph 106, Vilma alleges that Cerullo “pledged revenge against the Saints,” and particularly against assistant head coach/linebackers coach Joe Vitt.
At paragraphs 107 and 108, Vilma alleges that the NFL “relied principally upon Cerullo’s statements” during the bounty investigation, and that the disciplinary decisions were based on the results of “multiple interviews” of Cerullo.
At paragraph 109, Vilma claims that Cerullo “retracted his previous claims” during an April 2012 communication with Goodell.
At paragraph 124, Vilma alleges that Cerullo created the notes regarding the persons who pledged money to the Brett Favre bounty “well after the 2009 NFC Championship Game and in an effort to gain revenge against the Saints for terminating his employment.”
If Vilma’s allegations are true, the bounty case against him and the other players has been seriously undermined.
It’s not the first time a disgruntled former employee has caused problems for the Saints. Former director of security Geoffrey Santini brought to light the Vicodin scandal that ensnared Vitt and coach Sean Payton. Also, it’s believed that a disgruntled former Saints employee provided information to ESPN regarding the fairly recent (but already largely forgotten) claim that G.M. Mickey Loomis had the ability to eavesdrop on opposing coaches.
And so the broader message to the Saints organization is either that they need to treat their employees better, so that they don’t become disgruntled and share secrets with others, or that they need to do a better job of screening applicants who could eventually tell lies about the organization. Or perhaps both.
For the league, the broader message is that there’s no longer any reason to protect Cerullo. He has been outed in a federal lawsuit. Release his notes and the summaries of all interviews to the players and their lawyers, and let’s see what Cerullo had to say.
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Cerullo suddenly becomes key player in bounty case
Posted by Mike Florio on July 2, 2012, 4:10 PM EDT
After weeks of having his name on the fringes of the Saints bounty investigation, linebacker Jonathan Vilma has yanked former Saints assistant Mike Cerullo into the middle of the radar screen.
Cerullo, according to Vilma, blew the whistle on the situation. Cerullo, according to Vilma, is lying. Cerullo, according to Vilma, simply wants revenge against the Saints for firing him after the 2009 season.
Cerullo, according to Vilma, specifically wants revenge against interim head coach Joe Vitt. And Cerullo, according to Vilma, created the notes that reflected the alleged contributions to the Brett Favre bounty. And those notes show a $5,000 contribution from Joe Vitt. And the NFL never accused or suspected Vitt of making any contribution to any bounty pool.
So what does it all mean to the bounty case? I tried to make sense of it during Monday’s PFT Live.
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The NFL's key source for information/evidence in Bountygate is a "disgruntled" former Saint assistant coach of questionable character, who was fired by the Saints after their Super Bowl win in 2010.
This is the guy who produced the ledger showing the names of players and coaches and the amounts pledged for bounties...a former employee who “pledged revenge against the Saints,” and particularly against assistant head coach/linebackers coach Joe Vitt.
Joe Vitt's name appeared in Cerullo's ledger claiming he donated $5000 to the Favre bounty. Vitt is now the acting HC who offered to take a lie detector test to prove his innocence.
...Joe Vitt might be telling the truth...and that is a problem for Roger Goodell.
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jc
I think the whole boutygate thing has been totally blown outta proportion from the get-go...
td...it's been my opinion from the beginning, this case is going to used by the NFL as part of their defense in another, much larger, much more important and potentially, much more costly case for the NFL...the concussion litigation.
Roger is trying to set the table for NFL lawyers so they can use this so called "Bounty case" as part of the NFL defense in the concussion case.
IMO, the NFL wants to be able to point to the players and say something along the line of...how can the NFL be held responsible for concussions when the players set up a bounty system (like the Saints did), to hurt their fellow NFL players?
I really hate to say it, but I agree with mac.
This whole thing is a sham from the get-go.
No doubt about it. Ruining the name of a few for something that goes on almost everywhere just to position themselves to protect the league in a much broader case upcoming.
And people wonder why I can't stand Goodell?
It will become far more obvious as the whole concussion case becomes front page news and unfolds........
The whole thing will be shifted back to the coaches and players and the league will try to play innocent....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Fujita really had no grounds to complain, as he had repeatedly admitted to violating salary cap rules by contributing to a performance fund in violation of the rules. It could have been a "good teammate" thing ..... but it was illegal under the salary cap rules. He really has no room to complain. NFL rejects bounty appeals; Cleveland Browns' Scott Fujita must miss first three games | cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/07/nfl_upholds_suspensions_in_sai.htmlCLEVELAND, Ohio – NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell has upheld his suspension of Browns linebacker Scott Fujita and three other players disciplined for their alleged role in the New Orleans Saints bounty program. The commissioner, who made his original rulings in May, released his decision not to alter the judgments today, two weeks after the four players had an opportunity to appeal to him and other NFL officials in New York. Fujita will miss the first three regular-season games. New Orleans linebacker Jonathan Vilma, who has a defamation case against the league pending, is banned for the entire 2012 season. Saints defensive end Will Smith received four games; and defensive end Anthony Hargrove, now with Green Bay, must sit eight games. Goodell said none of the four players provided evidence to change the league's mind on the pay-for-performance system that was run by former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams from 2009-2011. "Although you claimed to have been 'wrongfully accused with insufficient evidence,' your lawyers elected not to ask a single question of the principal investigators, both of whom were present at the hearing (as your lawyers had requested); you elected not to testify or to make any substantive statement, written or oral, in support of your appeal; you elected not to call a single witness to support your appeal; and you elected not to introduce a single exhibit addressing the merits of your appeal," Goodell wrote in a letter to the players. "Instead, your lawyers raised a series of jurisdictional and procedural objections that generally ignore the CBA, in particular its provisions governing 'conduct detrimental' determinations ... " The NFL Players Association issued a statement saying it will continue to pursue all options. “The players are disappointed with the League’s conduct during this process,” the statement said. “We reiterate our concerns about the lack of fair due process, lack of integrity of the investigation and lack of the jurisdictional authority to impose discipline under the collective bargaining agreement. “Moreover, the Commissioner took actions during this process that rendered it impossible for him to be an impartial arbitrator.'' Fujita received the lightest suspension but arguably has been the most vocal of the four players about not only the investigation but also the league’s stance on player-safety issues. He called the NFL probe a “smear campaign” two weeks ago and asked the Commissioner, “What the hell are you doing, Roger?” during his appeal. The 32-year-old linebacker repeatedly has said he's never contributed money to the Saints' bounty system that allegedly offered cash bonuses for injurious and big hits on targeted opponents. Evidence released by the NFL to reporters on June 18 seemed to support his claim, but NFL spokesman Greg Aiello told The Associated Press recently the league stands by its finding that Fujita gave “more than token amounts” of money to a pool that also rewarded injury-producing hits called “cart-offs” and “knockouts.” In an email response to the Plain Dealer, Fujita said "I am in favor of any process that leads to an honest and fair resolution and that gets the whole truth out on the table.'' He also said that he wasn't surprised by the ruling, but that he'd defer to the NFLPA for further comment. He is a member of the NFL Players Association executive committee and a vocal advocate for player safety. Some current and former teammates have wondered if his suspension is possible retribution for his role with the union during and prior to the 2011 lockout. He played for the Saints during the 2006-09 seasons before joining the Browns in 2010. The league probe covers the 2009-11 seasons. In his letter to the players, Goodell left open the chance to meet with him again. “While this decision constitutes my final and binding determination under the CBA, I of course retain the inherent authority to reduce a suspension should facts be brought to my attention warranting the exercise of that discretion,” Goodell wrote. “The record confirms that each of you was given multiple chances to meet with me to present your side of the story. You are each still welcome to do so.” It's unlikely the players will request such a meeting. If Fujita cannot play the first three games, the Browns will have a decision on who to start. They could switch Chris Gocong from weak-side to strong-side linebacker and start Kaluka Maiava as they did late last season after Fujita broke his hand. The Browns also could start rookie fourth-round linebacker James-Michael Johnson at Fujita's spot. Beyond the players, Goodell previously suspended Saints coach Sean Payton for the season; Williams indefinitely; and assistant Joe Vitt for six games. Saints general manager Mickey Loomis was docked eight games.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Does anyone really care about all the bounty stuff anymore?
Obviously if it was the Browns we'd care. But it's not, and I don't even want Fujita here.
I could not care less I think...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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