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Yeah, just like at first Goodell said it was the voice of Hargrove on the audio tape. Once a voice expert backed up Hargroves claims, then goodell changed things. Then he said it doesn't make any difference if it was the voice of Hargrove. Then he said it proves that Hargrove knew about it so his punishment still stands. What a crock! That would mean everyone within ear shot of what he said knew it too and ALL of them should be suspended. You still don't get it? I'm not simply speaking about Fujita. I'm speaking of who the NFL is using as a source. I'm talking about the NFL suspending a guy based on his comment, "I want my money", then when finding out they can't say for sure it was him, suspending him anyway. I'm talkig about a power hungry, manipulative guy who doesn't really care when he's wrong (as with Hargrove), but still refuses to change anything! How can you claim to suspend a guy based on "his comment", then when you realise you can't prove it was his comment at all, you suspend him anyway? You don't see a problem with that? http://sports.yahoo.com/news/second-piec...00476--nfl.html
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Pitt...It is not just the players who are "openly" questioning Roger...and Roger's response to the information in question...SILENCE !!!
New Orleans Saints coach Joe Vitt expands on denials of NFL claims in interview with Times-Picayune
06/20/12 6:23PM
New Orleans Saints assistant head coach Joe Vitt spoke with The Times-Picayune on Wednesday after releasing a statement earlier in the day denying some of the NFL's latest claims against him. He said he also called NFL commissioner Roger Goodell earlier in the day and offered to take a lie detector test.
Like others before him, Vitt continued the debate over semantics in this investigation. Vitt confirmed the existence of "cart-off" hits as part of a Saints' pay-for-performance program that rewarded players for a variety of big plays. But he insisted they were clean, legal hits that led to opponents' injuries.
As Vitt described it, "A cart-off is a legal hit. Knock the taste out of their mouth, they have to take a couple plays off and may come back into the game."
Vitt, however, said he has repeatedly insisted to NFL investigators that the Saints' defenders never targeted opponents with a specific intent to injure, never attempted to injure opponents with illegal hits and never singled out opponents with bounties on them.
"I stated from Day 1 to investigators - and I hope they took good notes - our players have done nothing wrong. Nothing wrong," Vitt said. "Our players never crossed the white lines with an intent to injure anybody."
Vitt said he hasn't wanted to speak up too much against the NFL's investigation because he didn't want to interfere with the players' appeal process, but he felt compelled to defend himself after some of the league's latest accusations.
Clearly upset with the fact that the suspended Saints coaches, players and management don't have a chance to clear their names in an open forum, Vitt said,
"The bylaws of the National Football League supersede the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights."
Specifically, Vitt was upset by the league's recent claim that he contributed $5,000 to a bounty against Minnesota Vikings quarterback Brett Favre in the 2010 NFC championship game. Here is the complete statement he released earlier Wednesday.
In a more detailed conversation with The Times-Picayune, Vitt also took issue with the league's characterization that he had corroborated the existence of the team's bounty program.
Vitt confirmed that he told league investigators that the Saints used terms like "cart-offs" and "whacks" (a legal hit that didn't result in injury), among other such details. Vitt, however, said he did not corroborate any of the league's more sweeping claims that the team had a "bounty" system in place.
Vitt again stressed that he had never heard the word "bounty" until the NFL's investigators brought up the term earlier this year. And he denied the existence of any bounties or any bounty program being in place. Vitt admitted that a pay-for-performance program was in place but said the league never asked about a pay-for-performance program - which means he wasn't intentionally lying when he denied the existence of a "bounty" program.
As for the specific bounty that was allegedly offered against Favre, Vitt said, "I never heard that. And that's exactly what I told investigators and told the commissioner. I never heard a player ever talk about putting Favre out of the game or injuring another player."
Vitt said he did confirm to the league, however, that the general attitude in the defensive meeting room the night before that game may have gotten "out of hand."
"We were fired up the night before the NFC championship game," Vitt said. "It was a fired-up meeting. It was a fever pitch and we had to have a fever pitch because it was a heck of a game. We were four quarters away from going to the Super Bowl."
Vitt was incensed by the fact that the NFL shared evidence with players and the media Monday suggesting that he pledged $5,000 toward a bounty on Favre. Vitt's name had been written next to that dollar amount and the words "QB out pool" on a handwritten note that the league used as part of its evidence, without naming the source.
Vitt said the NFL never showed him such evidence or accused him of offering such a bounty before he was suspended six games earlier this year. And he said Goodell confirmed to him that he didn't ever suspect Vitt of contributing money to any bounties or to the team's pay-for-performance program.
Vitt added that every time he has talked with Goodell, he believes the commissioner has been "absolutely great" and that the conversations have been positive. He remains disturbed, however, by the fact that the NFL is relying on such questionable evidence for some of its claims against the Saints.
Vitt said if that piece of paper was inaccurate or falsified, then it should call into question the authenticity of other pieces of the league's supposed evidence as well.
"There's gotta be some concerns from the league's standpoint and anybody's standpoint about the authenticity of any of these documents. I think that's a huge concern," Vitt said. "It looks like that document has been falsified or tampered with. What kind of credibility do they have if they take documents like that and show it to players?"
Vitt declined to name the suspected source of that document or any unnamed accusers who have provided testimony to the league. But Vitt said if this case ever gets to a court of law, he doesn't believe a lot of the accusations will hold up.
"The truth is starting to come out," Vitt said.
When asked why he and other suspended members of the Saints' management and coaching staff didn't put up much of a public fight when they were punished earlier this year, Vitt again said he didn't want to comment since the players' appeals process is still ongoing, but he said he would comment in the future. And he said part of the reason is that the coaches don't have the same kind of appeals process available to them that players have - and certainly not that most average people have available.
"But we're gonna keep fighting the fight. We're not gonna back down," Vitt said.
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I'd ask Mr. Vitt when "bounty" and "illegal hit" became synonomous, but he doesn't sound like he's intelligent enough to answer that one. Or perhaps the only hits that can knock players out of games or injure them are illegal hits? 
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Quote:
Vitt confirmed the existence of "cart-off" hits as part of a Saints' pay-for-performance program that rewarded players for a variety of big plays. But he insisted they were clean, legal hits that led to opponents' injuries.
Legal hits or not, this statement is an admission of paying players to injure someone. Sounds like a bounty to me.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
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Quote:
Quote:
Vitt confirmed the existence of "cart-off" hits as part of a Saints' pay-for-performance program that rewarded players for a variety of big plays. But he insisted they were clean, legal hits that led to opponents' injuries.
Legal hits or not, this statement is an admission of paying players to injure someone. Sounds like a bounty to me.
but he never heard the actual term "bounty" before 
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, Roger Goodell isn't a dummy. he's not dumb enough to take this kind of action against players and coaches without evidence to support his position He's more than well aware of the credibility issue he'd create if he took arbitrary actions such as these without some foundation of proof.
So while we may, as fans, never see all the proof, I get the feeling the outcome will not change if this gets in front of a judge.
So all the bellyaching by the players and coaches involved is really positioning to get the fans to move to their side of the argument.
I DO believe there was a bounty program, I DO believe there was bonus money paid if you took a guy out of the game.
I don't believe Goodell could get the league to believe him without proof. 31 other owners could shut him down if they thought he was acting out of bad faith.
they haven't.. and they are HIS boss.
everything else is window dressing...
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Quote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Roger Goodell isn't a dummy. he's not dumb enough to take this kind of action against players and coaches without evidence to support his position He's more than well aware of the credibility issue he'd create if he took arbitrary actions such as these without some foundation of proof.
So while we may, as fans, never see all the proof, I get the feeling the outcome will not change if this gets in front of a judge.
So all the bellyaching by the players and coaches involved is really positioning to get the fans to move to their side of the argument.
I DO believe there was a bounty program, I DO believe there was bonus money paid if you took a guy out of the game.
I don't believe Goodell could get the league to believe him without proof. 31 other owners could shut him down if they thought he was acting out of bad faith.
they haven't.. and they are HIS boss.
everything else is window dressing...
well said. add to it that would Benson (Saints owner), Loomis (Saints GM), Payton (Saints HC), and Gregg Williams (ex-Saints DC) all be willing to succumb to massive punishments and having their careers and Superbowl victory tainted in the public eye if there was not truth to the claims by Goodell and the NFL?
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Quote:
Quote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Roger Goodell isn't a dummy. he's not dumb enough to take this kind of action against players and coaches without evidence to support his position He's more than well aware of the credibility issue he'd create if he took arbitrary actions such as these without some foundation of proof.
So while we may, as fans, never see all the proof, I get the feeling the outcome will not change if this gets in front of a judge.
So all the bellyaching by the players and coaches involved is really positioning to get the fans to move to their side of the argument.
I DO believe there was a bounty program, I DO believe there was bonus money paid if you took a guy out of the game.
I don't believe Goodell could get the league to believe him without proof. 31 other owners could shut him down if they thought he was acting out of bad faith.
they haven't.. and they are HIS boss.
everything else is window dressing...
well said. add to it that would Benson (Saints owner), Loomis (Saints GM), Payton (Saints HC), and Gregg Williams (ex-Saints DC) all be willing to succumb to massive punishments and having their careers and Superbowl victory tainted in the public eye if there was not truth to the claims by Goodell and the NFL?
This is just me talking, but if I knew that I did it, I'd shut up and take my punishment.
If I wanted to make this into a PR War (which is what I think the accused are doing), I'm bellyache like crazy.
In the end, the only guy I believe is fujita. He doesn't strike me as the kinda guy that would get involved, but, how do we know.
Point is, no way in hell Goodell takes this action without proof.. No way.. unless he suddenly became the biggest idiot on the planet..
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Which cliche applies....hmmm....how about...Where there's smoke, there's fire....
The CBA gave him ultimate power and he's using it. If the players don't like it, they shoulda thought about it before agreeing to the terms.
I've always fallen on the side of the "company" over the "workers" when it comes to pro sports, and this case is no different to me.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Which cliche applies....hmmm....how about...Where there's smoke, there's fire....
The CBA gave him ultimate power and he's using it. If the players don't like it, they shoulda thought about it before agreeing to the terms.
I've always fallen on the side of the "company" over the "workers" when it comes to pro sports, and this case is no different to me.
Yes, he has the power not to be held accountable in a court of law (so far) and knows he doesn't have to bare the burden of prof that someone has to in a court of law.
He also knows that there is a huge law suit coming about the NFL not doing their due dilligence in regards to concussions. So if you can make the coaches and players look like the ones who are responsible and not the league itself, they will save hundreds of millions of dollars.
Damon is right..... Goodell is no dummy.....
Follow the money and the answer will become clear....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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so, Benson/Loomis/Payton/G.Williams are just "in on it" then?
they are sullying their reputations and their Superbowl win for the good of the shield?
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They have no union or representation with which to stand.
I believe they feel if they open their mouth, their entire careers will be over.
And I must ask, if the "bosses" are the ones who set up the program, why are their employees being punished for it? I think it's funny how so many are refusing to make those who are supposed to be in charge take the responsability for this and somehow feel those who work for them were no more than following the bosses plan.
I think a bounty program by definition is for dirty or illegal playing tactics by league rules. Not being rewarded for clean hits which are legal by NFL rules.
The whole thing is a farce.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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If I was a player who was injured while playing the Saints during the years in question, I'd seek damages against the parties involved.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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yes, the coaches should be held more accountable and they have been.
Gregg Williams is facing an indefinite suspension and it's hard to say if another team will take a chance on him being their DC again (knowing that his defenses will be under the microscope by the NFL and media).
Payton is facing a true 1 year ban from the NFL. Not just the regular season like Vilma, but the entirety of the season with no contact from any NFL personnel at any level (or he will not be re-instated. it's NCAA-like where he is supposed to report even chance encounters to the NFL). You won't see him on TV, you won't see him attending practices of other teams, or anything else non-coaching coaches do.
Benson saw his team's SB championship sullied. The one glorifying moment in the history of the franchise now has a stigma attached to it. Any financial penalty given is minute compared to that.
And, Benson (and the owners) are Goodell's boss. Not the other way around. If he felt the thing was unfair, I doubt he would allow it to happen that way.
As far as the coaches "not having a union" and "being afraid for their careers" that does not seem to be preventing Vitt from combatting the media reports publicly. Why would Gregg Williams allow his future career to be ruined (and past reputation destroyed) if it wasn't true?
I agree that the whole thing has been clunky. I agree that the NFLPA should have never agreed to giving Goodell the authority to sentence and hear the appeals (Fujita has no right to complain since he helped negotiate though). I agree the FO/coaches who created and kept the system going should be punished more severely than the players.
However, I don't agree that the players should be given a free pass for their part in the program.
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Quote:
If I was a player who was injured while playing the Saints during the years in question, I'd seek damages against the parties involved.
Holy smokes, I hadn't even thought of that angle. Wow,, what a mess that could turn out to be.
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Im not sure if this has been mentioned. Teams have to have injury reports and maybe the Saints were using the reports to target a certain area on a player thats been injured in the past.
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Im not sure if this has been mentioned. Teams have to have injury reports and maybe the Saints were using the reports to target a certain area on a player thats been injured in the past.
yes, that is specifically what is mentioned in the released video of the pregame pep-talk from Gregg Williams (vs. 49ers where he mentions Gore's ankles and players who have had concussions issues - saying to 'kill the head')
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Quote:
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If I was a player who was injured while playing the Saints during the years in question, I'd seek damages against the parties involved.
Holy smokes, I hadn't even thought of that angle. Wow,, what a mess that could turn out to be.
Yep.
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http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/19578...esponsible-moveMr. Freeh looks like he gets to put his personal stamp on all the major scandals of 2011/2012. The Penn State report just dropped, so he's working on Bountygate now (directly hired by Mr. Benson of the Saints).
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jc...
Joe Vitt files affidavit in support of Jonathan Vilma, rips investigation
July 17, 2012
Saints interim coach Joe Vitt submitted his own affadavit backing linebacker Jonathan Vilma’s request for a temporary restraining order, following Vilma and Saints trainer Scottie Patton’s.
Vitt also used the forum to deny the existence of the bounty system, the one which he was suspended six games for his role in by NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell.
“While I anxiously await being able to provide substantive and truthful testimony and information about the allegations made by Mr. Goodell regarding the so-called but non-existent Bounty Program, and to refute that the Saints ever had a bounty on an opposing player and set out to injure anyone or to encourage any other Saints player to injure anyone, I will restrict my Affidavit here to issues that I have been informed are relevant to Mr. Vilma’s Motion to Restrain Temporarily the Suspension,” the affidavit said, according to the New Orleans Times-Picayune.
He also echoed previous statements that Vilma needed to participate in training camp.
“The Suspension, and our inability to work with Mr. Vilma, in my opinion jeopardizes the entire Saints football team and our 2012 -2013 Season,” Vitt said in the affidavit.
That’s good strong language for a legal brief, but it does perhaps ignore the football reality, that Vilma was in decline last year. There’s a reasonable argument to be made they’ve upgraded at the position with Curtis Lofton. But that’s a different affidavit for a different day.
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Goodell’s Offer to Reduce Vilma’s Suspension Proves Commissioner is Terrified of Losing in Court: Fan’s Opinion
By Patrick Michael | Yahoo! Contributor Network – 2 hours 58 minutes ago
..
After the New Orleans Saints defeated the Arizona Cardinals 17-10 in the Pro Football Hall of Fame Game, I didn't think anything could top that story. Then rumors began circulating that NFL commissioner Roger Goodell had offered to reduce Jonathan Vilma's bounty suspension to eight games if he dropped his lawsuit. This proves that Goodell is trying to avoid a devastating loss in court.
Jonathan Vilma vs. Roger Goodell
After receiving a season-long suspension for his role in the Saints' alleged bounty program, Jonathan Vilma sued Roger Goodell and the NFL. In the federal court hearing on a potential temporary restraining order, Judge Berrigan had harsh words for the commissioner and how the NFL adjudicated the bounty punishments.
Already under fire, Roger Goodell cannot afford to lose to Vilma in court. If Judge Berrigan were to grant Vilma's TRO request and the Saints LB gets his suspension thrown out, Goodell could not survive such a defeat politically. I believe Goodell is only offering Vilma a reduced suspension to get him to drop his defamation lawsuit.
I will not offer Jonathan Vilma legal advice. However, if he accepts Goodell's offer, Vilma would still be tacitly admitting guilt. Even accepting a one-game suspension would prove him guilty. On the other hand, Vilma stands to regain half his 2012 Saints' salary if he accepts the offer.
Roger Goodell also knows that if Judge Berrigan rules there is no evidence of a bounty program in New Orleans, then perhaps even the Joe Vitt, Mickey Loomis, and Sean Payton suspensions would be back in play. If Goodell was wrong, do the New Orleans Saints get their $500,000 fine back? And would the Saints get an extra draft pick in 2013 to make up for the second round pick in 2012 they can't get back?
As you can see, this is beyond a nightmare scenario for Roger Goodell. The ramifications of Judge Berrigan ruling in favor of Jonathan Vilma would be catastrophic for the commissioner. Only a doomsday scenario such as this could motivate Goodell to reduce Vilma's suspension to eight games.
Jonathan Vilma and his attorney, Peter Ginsberg, have a critical decision to make. The impact of Vilma's decision will affect his career, the New Orleans Saints, Roger Goodell, and the NFL. Stay tuned.
Patrick Michael lives in New Orleans and has always been a big fan of the New Orleans Saints. Patrick's favorite Saints season was 2009 when New Orleans won Super Bowl 44. Follow Patrick Michael on Twitter at patmichael84.
Source
ESPN broadcast of Sportscenter on August 5, 2012
More from this contributor
How Roger Goodell used the New Orleans Saints to win his crusade against violence
Is public opinion swinging in favor of the New Orleans Saints?
Second piece of bounty evidence officially refuted
The glory of the Saints
Game summary of Super Bowl 48
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If I'm Vilma, no way do I take Goodell's deal...
I wonder how many endorsement deals Goodell's case against the Saints cost Vilma?
The other players who have alread been tried and executed by Goodell and the NFL...all of them need to file defamation of character suits against Goodell and the NFL, just like Vilma did.
The damage done to each of player's character, due to Goodell's ill-advised pursuit of this case, just in terms of their future earnings potential, outside of football or after the players have retired from football..it's hard to put a dollar figure on the damages.
This is a big case that could end up backfiring on Goodell and the NFL..
...this case could be huge.
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Quote:
Only a doomsday scenario such as this could motivate Goodell to reduce Vilma's suspension to eight games.
yep, that's it. that's the only reason that he could offer the reduction.
look, the NFL doesn't want all the evidence in the public's eye. that's obvious. it's bad for the NFL (and players long-term). Vilma cares about getting his last couple years of salary, the short-term. So, he wants to fight this and get that $$.
from one side, I understand that NO is very likely not the only place this was going on. and the NO players feel unjustly victimized for something that was happening rampantly. on the other side, the NFL had to make an example in order to curb this type of behavior, NO had been warned multiple times over multiple years to stop this and had not.
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Here is the take from perhaps the best source for information on this case...PFT and Mike Florio, who is a lawyer by trade.
Report: League offers to cut Vilma’s suspension in half
Posted by Mike Florio on August 6, 2012, 7:36 AM EDT
There’s nothing like a looming court date to make parties serious about working out their differences on their own.
With Judge Helen G. Berrigan posing questions during a July 26 hearing that suggested she may be leaning toward lifting linebacker Jonathan Vilma’s suspension — and possibly overturning all of the suspensions later — the league reportedly has offered a middle ground. According to Ed Werder, Adam Schefter, and Chris Mortensen of ESPN.com (what, did they take turn typing the letters?), the NFL has offered to reduce Vilma’s suspension to eight games.
Though Steve Wyche of NFL Network said on NFLAM said that no specific offer has been made, the report comes at a time when it makes sense to be talking about possible alternatives to a court-ordered outcome.
The report also comes in the wake of a report by Jason Cole of Yahoo! Sports that, if the NFLPA had cooperated with the league’s process, Vilma may have ultimately been suspended only four games. Setting aside for now the serious disconnect between legal gamesmanship and the notion of doing the right thing, the leak to Cole may have laid the foundation for the news of what could be characterized as backpedaling by the league office.
Indeed, that’s the obvious initial reaction to the report from Werdscheftenson. The league by all appearances has blinked. Coupled with Cole’s report, the spin could be that the NFL is simply trying to finish this thing where it would have ended if Vilma hadn’t refused to participate in the process.
When Commissioner Roger Goodell hammered Vilma et al., we suggested at some point the possibility that Goodell deliberately overshot with the penalties so that he could prove the appeal process works — even if it makes him look wishy-washy for second-guessing his initial decision. Vilma prevented that from happening by refusing to throw himself on the mercy of what the players regard as a kangaroo court.
Of course, no offer to reduce the penalties may matter. Vilma and the other players continue to believe that they did nothing wrong. More specifically, they believe there were no bounties. They concede there was a pay-for-performance system, and the league still hasn’t made it clear that the penalties flow primarily from offering cash for applying clean, legal hits in a way that prevents an opponent from continuing. (For example, the Sunday night hit by defensive tackle Sedrick Ellis on Cardinals quarterback Kevin Kolb would have been regarded as a “knockout” in a regular-season game, even though Ellis broke no rules in dragging Kolb down.)
Once the two sides start speaking the same language, maybe they can find a middle ground. For now, our guess is that Vilma and the players will regard the offer as a sign of weakness, and that they’ll keep pushing for a court order scuttling all of the suspensions — or at a minimum requiring the parties to appoint a neutral arbitrator.
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While I'm convinced that the things that the Saints are accused of did indeed occur and I do believe they are NOT good for the game of football. Not good for the Players and really, not good for the fans and certainly not good for labor relations between the players and league, I do believe that Goodell went overboard.
If players around the league circled the wagons around Goodell for his attempt to protect them, I think that might sway my thinking. But they haven't. That tells me that the saints got caught doing the same things that many other teams do.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Vilma and the other players continue to believe that they did nothing wrong. More specifically, they believe there were no bounties.
Saying that getting paid for a "cart off" is not a bounty is akin to Clinton saying what he did with Monica Lewinsky wasn't "sexual relations".
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
While I'm convinced that the things that the Saints are accused of did indeed occur and I do believe they are NOT good for the game of football. Not good for the Players and really, not good for the fans and certainly not good for labor relations between the players and league, I do believe that Goodell went overboard.
Daman...playing "tackle" football, can lead to a player being injured.
I can't say it any plainer than that...
At the NFL level, they (the players and coaches) have had a system, off the books, of rewarding each other for performing well on the field. It is a system of reward similar to a player making an outstanding play when they were in college or in high school and getting a sticker to put on your helmet.
You can't put a sticker on NFL helmets, per NFL rules...and now the players have reached the pro level, so they rewarded each other with money for making outstanding plays.
That system has been around long before Goodell became commissioner and just how many teams participated in an unofficial pay for performance scheme is unknown, but a lot of NFL teams have had similar reward systems for their players. I have little doubt that some players may have called it a bounty, but it was not to intentionally hurt an opposing player.
Those who have little experience in football do not understand how hard it is to "intentionally hurt" another player. Some seem to believe it is easy and can happen on demand...which is totally false, unless we are talking about illegal hits/cheap shots.
Even with illegal and cheap shots, it's hard to injure an opposing player or to do so on demand...it just does not work that way.
I firmly believe Roger Goodell choose to pursue this pay for performance case to make an example of the Saints in an attempt to shift the focus/responsibility for head injuries from the NFL to the players themselves...AS IT RELATES TO the upcoming concussion lawsuits.
As a PR tool, I believe the NFL may have succeeded, as many fans now believe it's the players fault that they suffer so many concussions...that is total crap.
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If players around the league circled the wagons around Goodell for his attempt to protect them, I think that might sway my thinking. But they haven't. That tells me that the saints got caught doing the same things that many other teams do.
daman...you and I differ on whether Goodell was trying to "protect" the players by going after the Saints for their version of a "pay for performance" program.
Goodell and the NFL have been on a PR campaign to show how much they care about the player's health ever since the players learned that the NFL had intentionally withheld information dating back to the 1920s that showed the NFL knew about the dangers of repeated concussions and never shared that information with the players or their union.
Go back and look at the timeline where Goodell began to hand out fines for certain hits, especially HELMET TO HELMET hits...and you will see it coincides with the moment the players learned that the NFL withheld the concussion information from them.
Suddenly, the NFL cares about concussions...after hiding information about the dangers of repeated concussions for 80 yrs...
... just a coincidence?...I think not !
Last edited by mac; 08/06/12 09:40 AM.
GM strong...
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Legend
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Quote:
At the NFL level, they (the players and coaches) have had a system, off the books, of rewarding each other for performing well on the field. It is a system of reward similar to a player making an outstanding play when they were in college or in high school and getting a sticker to put on your helmet.
You can't put a sticker on NFL helmets, per NFL rules...and now the players have reached the pro level, so they rewarded each other with money for making outstanding plays.
do they give out stickers in college for "cart-offs"?
(note: they very well might at some schools. and, if so, it's wrong)
#gmstrong
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pay for performance
So that's the new spin phrase for unsportsmen like behavior? 
Rubbish!
They are already compensated for their performance ... It's called a contract.
As far as the concussion issue and a separate one at that ... It was an issue long before the Commissioner took his post, but you keep on making the case for your sacrificial lamb.
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Legend
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Daman...playing "tackle" football, can lead to a player being injured.
I can't say it any plainer than that...
Right. The reason people give you a hard time is you talk out both sides of your mouth. On one hand you say there was no bounty and these guys were just playing tackle football.
On the other when one bangs his head and gets a concussion you say it's the NFLs lack of concern for the players.
If you were consistent in your opinion it might mean something, but it seems to me you simply line up against the NFL no matter what.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Daman...playing "tackle" football, can lead to a player being injured.
I can't say it any plainer than that...
This has been your stance from the beginning, and it couldn't be more WRONG in this situation...
Do people get hurt playing football? Yes of course, hell people get hurt PRACTICING football...
But here's the deal, The Saints were found to be taking it a step further, and TRYING to injure people...
And that is just something you do not do...
I don't know why you get get that... (well I do know why, because you hate Goodell and Co.)
Side Note: I don't know why everyones surprised about the Vilma thing, the PURPOSE of his Defamation suit was to get his suspension reduced. The old, you give me what I want i'll drop the suit ploy...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Legend
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do they give out stickers in college for "cart-offs"?
(note: they very well might at some schools. and, if so, it's wrong)
nolo...Whose system was this?
Who rewarded the players for cart offs? Who wanted the "cart offs"?
People talk about "cart offs" like they can given out on demand...
...fact is, most "cart offs"...likely 99.9%...are pure accident and unintended.
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...fact is, most "cart offs"...likely 99.9%...are pure accident and unintended.
I'd like to see the source to back up this "Fact".
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Legend
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...fact is, most "cart offs"...likely 99.9%...are pure accident and unintended.
I'd like to see the source to back up this "Fact".
Ditto.
Vilma may be fighting this in court, but thus far every court has found that Goddell has the right to mete out punishment, and that players have a right to an appeal process. Beyond that, unless there was some egregious violation of their rights, there is nothing the court can, or will, do.
If Vilma has a deal that would cut his suspension in half, then he should grab it ASAP.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Daman...playing "tackle" football, can lead to a player being injured.
I can't say it any plainer than that...
Thanks for clearing that up for me Mac.. I thought Tackle Football was for wimps and that nobody ever got injured 
Putting a bounty on a player to get him knocked out of the game is wrong.. I can't put it any clearer than that.
What bugs the hell out me is, these players are part of a union. They are brothers of sorts.. why would they allow anyone to purposely injure another player. Why would they accept that as common practice.
You talk to a UAW employee and have a GM Supervisor tell a GM union guy to do something to Ford union guy,, man, you will have all kinds of grievances filed.
But somehow, in the NFL, it's allowed.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The problem is.
mac doesn't think there were any bounties...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Quote:
pay for performance
So that's the new spin phrase for unsportsmen like behavior?
Rubbish!
They are already compensated for their performance ... It's called a contract.
As far as the concussion issue and a separate one at that ... It was an issue long before the Commissioner took his post, but you keep on making the case for your sacrificial lamb.
fl...if you have been following this case from the beginning, you would know that the phrase "pay for performance" has been used.
"Bounty" has been used too, but it seems Roger Goodell and the NFL are having some problems proving their was a "Bounty" system.
Here is a good read...
Saints' 'pay for performance' system commonplace in NFL
By Bucky Brooks NFL.com
Analyst, NFL.com and NFL Network
Updated: March 3, 2012 at 12:03 p.m
The news of the New Orleans Saints operating a "bounty" program from 2009 to 2011 under defensive coordinator Gregg Williams has created quite a stir since the news broke Friday, but I will let you in on a dirty little secret: The practice is commonplace throughout the league.
While the salacious details of the "pay for performance" program certainly will draw the ire of Commissioner Roger Goodell, the act of players providing cash bonuses to their teammates for impact plays has been a part of the league's subculture for years.
From my rookie season in 1994 to my final year as a scout in 2007, I was associated with several teams that incorporated various forms of the "bounty" program cited in New Orleans. Most of those bonuses were tied to sacks, interceptions, forced fumbles and return touchdowns, but big hits and knockout shots were also included in the payouts. The financial incentives were established by players prior to the season, typically within a position group, and the payouts ranged from a few hundred dollars to $1,500 at the max.
The money used to make the payments came from fines for various mental errors on the practice field or in games, and the group would designate which players were worthy of receiving the gifts. The intent of the program was to promote accountability for players for their play on the field, while also adding a competitive element to the group.
As silly as it sounds to those on the outside, the thought of collecting a few hundred bucks from your teammates for a big play provides a bit of motivation for a player already cashing huge checks for his performance. Players have been known to shout "cha-ching" (mimicking the sound of a cash register) on the field following turnovers, and the byproduct of utilizing such a "kitty" program is better camaraderie among the group.
In addressing the damning allegations of placing bounties on opposing players, I would like to believe the Saints instituted policies that rewarded defenders for hard but clean shots that separated ball carriers from the ball. These "knockout" shots, as we called them, were not inflicted with the intent to injure, but rather to establish a physical tone that created hesitation and fear in the minds of offensive players venturing across the middle of the field.
Offensive players might scoff at the notion of intimidation impacting the game, but there is something to putting teeth-rattling collisions on tape that alters the way future opponents play the game. If you don't believe me, look at the way receivers short arm balls with defenders in close proximity, or how quarterbacks flinch with rushers bearing down on them. Simply put, big hits matter in this game, and defensive coaches and players overemphasize the importance of physicality.
To illustrate that point, I will point to an example from my time with the Kansas City Chiefs during which we routinely would reward players with framed pictures of their big hits in team meetings. This certainly didn't promote dirty play or encourage defenders to play beyond the whistle, but receiving recognition for a bone-jarring hit definitely was motivating.
The New Orleans Saints won Super Bowl XLIV behind a hard-nosed, aggressive defense that specialized in creating takeaways and pummeling opponents, and Williams' "pay for performance" system is a time-honored tradition in locker rooms across the league.
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There does seem to be a conflicted of interest there, but on the same hand I'm not a where of any grievances filled by another union member against another player/member.
I only mentioned this, because I'm not a where of any ... I could be mistaken.
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I have less of a problem with the term or phrase "Bounty Gate" then "Pay for Performance" ... It's sounds too politically correct in nature and dilutes any such wrong doing by trying to generalize what happened as "come place" in the League.
I don't think that it was a League wide problem (I have followed the case enough to come to that conclusion) and as I said they are already payed for their performance when they signed their contracts, make the playoffs, get endorsements, ect....
Maybe you do not see this as an integrity of the game issue, that it truly is. This is a bigger issue then the few named defendants.
It's not just a purple herring Mac.
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The Lawsuit is supposedly about defamation of character.. not about the right to mete out punisments. Goodell is saying that Vilma DID knock people out of games intentionally.. not that he tried to. In a defamation of character suit it is usually figured as ... Do or Do not.. there is no try.. Either he did knock someone out.. and he is being punished for it.. or he did not knock someone out and should not be punished. Vilma is saying that he did not knock anyone out.. and the punishment defames his reputation.. 
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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