I have no problem holding Weedon to the same standards as McCoy.
If he holds the ball too long when the play calls for it to leave his hand in 3 seconds, yep, I'll blame him. If he misses receivers when they're open downfield without a defender 10 yards from them, yep, I'll blame him. When he's unable to anticipate reads and hit receivers in "NFL-sized" windows of opportunity... yep, I'll blame him for that too.
I do agree with Ytown that Colt held this offense back in many ways. The reason why he's being replaced is because he did this, and he wasn't getting any better. If Weedon comes in and provides the same level of play and fails to progress... then yes, I'll be calling for another QB.
There is a level of excellence we need to expect from our QB play. And if our QB isn't at that level, then he better be progressing steadily towards it. If he's not doing that, then he needs to be replaced immediately. It's just that simple. QBs can be evaluated accurately in this system by our coaches and front office despite the poor play of those around him. Holmgren and Heckert have done that and decided it was time to try someone else. I'm happy they're not wasting any time trying to find "the guy." Now, if they'd just have to prove they can do that.
Quote: What are your expectations for Weeden this year?
I know you're probably directing this to TopDawg, but I'm feelin 7-9 this year.
All depends on how the rest of the draft pans out. If we get ourselves a WR and a RT, then that number seems realistic
Of course with injuries and stuff, who knows how things will pan out.
I mean, someone like Joe Thomas goes down and we're screwed. Playing in the AFC North, we can't afford injuries like the Chiefs suffered last year. That's basically game over
If he holds the ball too long when the play calls for it to leave his hand in 3 seconds, yep, I'll blame him. If he misses receivers when they're open downfield without a defender 10 yards from them, yep, I'll blame him. When he's unable to anticipate reads and hit receivers in "NFL-sized" windows of opportunity... yep, I'll blame him for that too.
Quote: What are your expectations for Weeden this year?
My expectations for Weeden ARE much higher than my expectations for Colt McCoy would have been.
Why? Because Colt McCoy sucks.
Weeden - Complete 60+% of his passes. 3,300 yards. 18+ TD's, 14- INT's
Colt would have to go up 3%, stay healthy for 16 games and manage to get 2 more TDs on the season (and 1 more INT) based on his per game averages from last year. The year where our offense was terrible, had no RT, and we needed a WR1 and RB1 (both of whom we could have right now for Colt).
I don't think that's such a big leap from last year's Colt stats.
Quote: What would my expectations have been for Colt McCoy?
See I don't hate Colt McCoy. I simply do not think that he is a good QB, and I think that having him try to play QB hurts this team, and its ability to win games. We will be a better team with him no longer taking snaps from under Center during real games.
We scored 13 points per game last year. Man ... let that sink in. 13 points per game. Oh ... I'm sorry .... 13.6 points per game.
That is historically awful. It is one of the worst performances ever in the history of the Cleveland Browns, and was almost as bad as the expansion Browns.
I watched Colt McCoy attempt to play the QB position last year,. and damn near get guys killed. I watched him ignore wide open receivers. i watched him throw passes that were completed, but which had no chance to go anywhere. I watched him, and this team, get worse as the year went on.
I watched receivers drop passes ..... until Wallace took over. Then I saw excitement from the receivers, and I didn;t see a bunch of dropped passes.
I don't hate Colt McCoy .... I just hate the way he played QB for my favorite team. I hate the fact that he turned our offense into one that was so bad that I was actually getting sympathy from Steelers fans instead of smack talk.
Will Weeden be better? I would say probably so. he really would be hard pressed to be worse. McCoy played a timid, scared QB. He played so far beyond "not to lose" that he reached "not to even compete" level. He did nothing well. Nothing. Now he has been replaced. This is a good thing.
You whine about anyone complaining about Colt McCoy, yet I'm not the one saying that I will blast the team if we don't make the playoffs and score 25 points per game, or any of the other stuff you have spewed on the board.Man ... read your posts. You come off as serial whiny.
You want to talk about hate though ......
Read your last statement. "My" first round QB and RB, and you'll be here to "remind" me. Yep ... that sounds rather like a fan to me.
I never said that we would make the playoffs this year. I did say that we better improve a great deal over last year. I said that we better improve significantly on the 13 points per game we put up last year. I have every reason to believe that this will happen.
I hope it will happen.
I would have hoped that we would significantly improve if McCoy had still been our QB, although I would have also known that there was no chance of this happening. Colt simply was not a good QB, and now he has been replaced. If Weeden isn't a good QB, then I suspect that he will also be replaced in a year or 2.
Whatever happens, I hope that the Browns finally develop a winner.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
No, I mean you were comparing win total with McCoy and with Weeden. But if we hadn't drafted Weeden, we'd have taken another player. I was wondering how you can compare those record expectations without knowing what the difference on the team other than the QB would be.
Quote: I really wish you'd stop saying you're using "other peoples standards" while completely making stuff up.
Child, please.
I'm not making things up.
You know it.
No, what I know is that you're making a fool out of yourself saying you're using other peoples standards while saying that you expect EVERY pass to get 10 extra yards
You see, that's what you expected out of McCoy. You wanted every completed pass to result in a first down. You wanted an 8 yard pass over the 1st down marker when there was nobody open there and McCoy checked it down. God help the kid if there was actually (a rare occasion to be sure) a receiver open down field and McCoy didn't see them.
I LOVE the Weeden pick. When we came up at #22 I looked at my buddy who is a Chiefs fan and said, "I hope this is Weeden"
It was kinda funny ...... I was on the boards last night when the pick came in, and I went "Yes!!!!!" while everyone else was screaming "No!"
I fully expected us to take Weeden. (especially once we passed on Tannehill) I really don't know why anyone was surprised. We desperately needed a QB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: because we have a new QB learning a drastically different system than the one he's run previously and we've added so much talent to the offense. Duh.
You mean that the Air Raid college offense doesn't project well to the NFL? Really? And Weeden will now have to learn how to make quick reads required by the WCO?
Well now. I didn't know that. What do you think Weeden's champions will say abou that? You think that when he sucks in year #1, that they'll ask for year #2? Maybe by then, they'll be ready to champion another QB to be drafted in the first round.
Which one do you think they'll ask for the next regime to draft?
Quote: I'm curious to know why you expect more than 4 wins.
On most draft days I'm disappointed when we don't get the guys I want. I was upset when we drafted TJ Ward, I was upset with drafting Phil Taylor, Sheard, and Little last year. And I've been upset with years before that.
But, I like what Heckert has done with this team. I like Dick Jauron as our D-Coordintaor. And I like bringing in Brad Childress as our O-Coordinator. I wish we never lost our old special teams coach, but that's in the past.
Anyway, I do feel like things are going in the right direction.
While I wasn't into the idea of drafting Weeden, I do recognize that Colt has some things that go against him. He doesn't have a very good arm and his timing on his throws is sometimes very off. When we drafted Colt, I was expecting a much more accurate QB.
What drafting Weeden shows me is that the FO and coaching staff, really think that Colt McCoy's flaws are hindering the offense. I didn't think that this was the case originally, but that is what is apparent. They work with this guy in practice, they have the best view of the game, and they watch the games over and over again. That guy who used to be the Miami OC, whatever his name is, knows McCoy up and down.
Obviously, they felt that Brandon Weeden would significantly upgrade the QB position. It's not like they're trying to sabotage the Browns and just picking guys without thinking about it.........
I'm very interested in seeing how today goes, and I'm praying we get a RT to handle a problem that's plagued our O-Line for years.
But overall, I do think that we finally have a decent organization. And that some people here want to rip it apart seems ridiculous to me. Heckert screwed up with Hardesty so far. That's it. McCoy was a third round pick. I do wish that Heckert was better at not drafting guys who have injury issues, but so far last year and this year; he didn't do that.
I'd really like to give this FO and coaching staff a real chance. And some people on here are just so doom and gloom. I want to watch the Browns, see an improved offense and a decent defense, and look forward to another year of building ourselves a real team. We need talent before we can become good. That takes patience.
We've had so little talent for so long, I mean, what past player on the Browns was a "good" player on any other team. Lance Moore? lol. Kamerion Wimbley was decent with the Raiders. Jeff Faine (couldn't cut it in the AFC North). KW2, got a 2nd round pick for him (which we probably squandered), and he blocked probably worse than Evan Moore. Braylon had a good year with the Jets, and now he can't find a team. Andra Davis (what happened to him?) and Andre Johnson (or Davis, the WR who was tall and fast and had a good rookie year for us awhile back). Oh, and Super Bowl Champ Shaun O'Hara! So, in reality, this organization has been a mess for awhile. Brodney Pool played well with the Jets, but I didn't want those concussions on my conscience. I was happy to let Brod go, although I loved him as a player.
Finally, I see us getting good players. Phil Taylor, Sheard; both these guys could start on most teams in the NFL. Joe Haden, he'd start anywhere. TJ Ward is one of the better safeties (and hopefully he can keep moving these injuries behind him). Greg Little was one of the better rookie receivers last year, coming off not playing or practicing really at all the year before. D'Qwell Jackson won like comeback player of the year or something like that. And Joe Thomas, of course, is the best player at his position probably in football. Or at least one of the top 3.
I do like where we're headed, and when I see these decisions and i'm like I just try to have faith in Heckert, because he's picked better than anybody we've had since coming back in 99 or 2000 or whatever. Just gotta be patient, find a system and let it be put in place.
We do need stability. That's essential. We won't get better without it. So when I see people say "If we don't win 7 games next year, everyone should get fired", that's ridiculous. There's so many factors that go into a season. What if a key player is injured, what if many key players are injured. There's just too many factors. I don't like doing things like that. I like watching, seeing the situation as it is, and making my opinion based on that
I haven't read any posts but I know some are melting down but I'll tell ya something, I like the selections..sure I wanted Weeden later but it didn't happen for the same reason Heckert had to move to get TR @3...so I WON'T COMPLAIN one bit..people the still have 10 picks..
Quote: I haven't read any posts but I know some are melting down but I'll tell ya something, I like the selections..sure I wanted Weeden later but it didn't happen for the same reason Heckert had to move to get TR @3...so I WON'T COMPLAIN one bit..people the still have 10 picks..
I thought we lost three in the Richardson pick and then used a pick on Richardson and a pick on Weeden. That's 13 down to 8. 8 Picks left. Of course, how many of those are comp. picks?
If we can somehow get ourselves a RT and WR in the 2nd round (trade up with our third and a fourth, may be next year's third or fourth), we'll be looking pretty good.
Must draft one of Glenn, Martin, or Massie at 37. We have to protect our two new 1st round investments. We can find a WR later much easier than a stud RT (plus, our WR should be greatly improved with a "real" QB throwing them the ball). I am going to be very upset if we don't find a RT in this draft and it leads to Weeden/Richardson getting killed.
Quote: I'm a big fan of Nick Toon out of Wisconsin.
Since he'll be there in the 3rd, I'd be okay with going Johnathan Martin at #37 if he's there, then Nick Toon at #67.
See, I want Cordy Glenn. He's a big boy but still an athlete.
He'd do a great job opening up holes for Richardson and he can withstand a bull rush, that's for sure. But I'd still be okay with Martin too. Or even this Massie guy. Just someone who can man the RT spot and do a decent job
I have my doubts about Weeden as well guys but if you watch some of his games you have to admit the basic skills are there. I love the overhead type delivery, very quick release, arm strength and touch when he needs it. Some of the throws he makes here, Colt would have to wind up 3 times to make.
None of those seasons ended with the Browns making the playoffs.
Shall I go back further?
Let's take a look at the last 10 years.
In 2006, the Browns went 4-12.
In 2005, the Browns went 6-10.
In 2004, the Browns went 4-12.
In 2003, the Browns went 5-11.
In 2002, the Browns went 9-7 and made the playoffs.
Now, since we've done that, let's take a look at how many head coaches and front offices we've had over that span.
From 2002 through mid-season 2004, the Browns had HC Butch Davis. To be fair, Davis was also the HC in 2001. He quit on the team and Terry Robiskie was given the interim job.
From 2005 through 2008, the Browns had HC Romeo Crennel.
In 2009 and 2010, the Browns had HC Eric Mangini.
Last year, we had a new HC and a new scheme under Pat Shurmur.
Under Davis' regime, we had 3 different starting QBs (Couch, Holcomb, Garcia) in those 4 seasons.
Under Crennel's leadership, we had 3 more different starting QBs (Dilfer, Frye, Anderson) in 4 seasons.
Then, under Mangini two-year reign, we got two more starting QBs (Quinn, McCoy).
Now, under Shurmur, in only his second season, we're going on QB #2 (McCoy, Weeden).
Tell me why you think that the pattern in Cleveland will change? Will Shurmur get 3 years instead of 2 or 4? Will Holmgren & Heckert have their jobs if the Browns don't make the playoffs? What if the Browns suffer yet another 4 or 5 win season?
There was, when the schedule was released, an article on NFL.com (the league's own website) stating that the Browns could start 0-13! I think it's since been removed but there are many articles referencing it.
The article had asked the question 'Guess when the Browns get their first win' in a comedic game show type of fashion.
I think the Browns could, with Weeden as the field general and this front office making the decisions, actually go 0-16. It won't matter that Richardson is on the team and it won't matter that the best player on the team is still the team's LT, Joe Thomas.
Let's just be candid about this team and this franchise. It sucks from ownership down to the front office to the product on the field.
I think it's funny that either of you are making judgments on a guy who hasn't even stepped on an NFL practice field.
This is what we know. Our coaching staff/front office doesn't think Colt McCoy is a starting QB. No one has any clue how Weeden will perform, but if McCoy wasn't the answer we needed a QB.
That's a fair question. I really can't say. All I can say is that I had expected that the front office had their man as the HC. I never thought he'd do double duty as the OC also. That's not McCoy's fault though. What I actually think happened was that McCoy ended up paying for Shumur being so far over his head that he'd have drowned had it not been Holmgren holding his head above water (his hiring being Holmgren's decision).
