DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk K-9 Consensus OK, QB or WR. Who makes the other better?

We have an interesting dynamic this coming year for a small experiment.

The Jaguars are starting a 2nd year QB who put up some numbers similar to those put up by Colt McCoy for the Browns last year. The Jaguars have a great RB, and added Lee Evans as a free agent, and Justin Blackmon in the draft.

The Browns kind of went the opposite route. They needed a RB, so they added a potentially great RB, drafted a new QB, and largely left their receiving corp alone, expecting better QB play to improve the receivers play.

Both teams were pretty bad last year, with the Browns being slightly worse on offense, and record-wise.

The Browns scored 13.6 PPG, and the Jaguars scored 15.2 PPG. The Browns went 4-12, and the Jaguars went 5-11. The Browns scored 218 points last year, and the Jaguars scored 245. Neither was effective on offense to any degree.

So ..... does the new QB improve the receivers in Cleveland more, or does the new receiver improve the QB in Jacksonville more?

Which teams sees their passing game improve more?

Who Improves His Team More? single choice
	The QB Weeden Improves His Receivers and Passing Game More
	The WR Blackmon Improves His QB and Passing Game more
Votes accepted starting: 04/29/12 02:55 PM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

Great/Good QB's put the ball where the WR needs it and makes the WR's job easier.

Branch left New England and was average at best until he went back to New England and Brady.

Lance Moore was on our roster and we didn't see enough to keep him. When he went to New Orleans, he becomes a ball catching machine for Brees.

Manning has made Blair White look like an elite WR at times. Reggie Wayne had his worst season since 2003 without Manning.

You need a "Neither because they're both rooks and will have a minimal impact in their first year." That would be my choice.

This site is 99% Browns fans.

What way do you think they're going to vote on this particular poll?

I'm just curious ...... because some people made such impassioned pleas for is to get a WR, and that it wasn't "fair" to judge our QB until and unless he had weapons everywhere. They said that it would be impossible for a QB to succeed with the receivers we have.

Anyway ..... I was just curious as to how people felt now that we will have a different QB, but largely the same receivers. If someone has strength in their convictions, then they should believe that the Jaguars will improve far more than the Browns will next year.

I happen to believe that the Browns will improve more, because they have a new QB.

I'd rather have Brett Favre and worst all time receiver than, worst all time quarterback and Jerry Rice. The quarterback touches the ball every play.

Plus if the qb drops back, drops the ball, and watches a defender run it for 6 points, how great is the importance of the receiver on that play.

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So ..... does the new QB improve the receivers in Cleveland more, or does the new receiver improve the QB in Jacksonville more?

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Has there ever been a more "homer" question to put Browns fans?

Not really, given that so many hated the Weeden pick, and thought that McCoy would be much better with "better" receivers.

QBs can help WRs but the WRs still need to be decent.
WRs can help the QBs but the QBs still need to be decent.

We're talking about Blaine Gabbert here. So, I'm not sure this is the best test-case.

I picked this case because Blaine Gabbert was remarkably similar to Colt McCoy last year .... except that he was a rookie.

Gabbert should make that leap forward that most players make from rookie to sophomore. Plus, of course, he will have the wide receiver who is supposed to make all the difference in the world for a QB.

Gabbert is garbage. I called that one right lol.

There were a few on here saying we needed to draft him.

So glad we didn't.

It really works both ways.
You can have the best wrs and a . qb and both look bad.
You can have the best qb and . wrs and both look bad.
Then again, you can take an average qb and pack talent around him and win, or win with a great qb and average talent.
The Bears and Ravens have both won it all with tough defenses and average qb play with top tier running games.
As best to my knowledge, no qb has ever won it all with no defense or talent on offense.

Interesting that, with a QB who was WORSE than McCoy, they scored MORE points and won MORE games, though only one. Don't know about their SOS, but it couldn't have been much easier than ours.

That must mean that running game and defense have something to do with it.

yeah, having the best RB in the NFL last year might help matters a bit (MoJo had the best year).

I saw far too many passes on Blackmons "highight reel" that hit him in stride, right over the shoulder with touch and in areas only he could catch it.

I'm very glad we drafted the guy who made those passes rather than the guy who caught all of those "easy ones".

First off, excellent poll. And I like the way you framed it. I'd like to believe that by year's end, we will have a definitive answer.

Prior to the draft, I was one of the fans who felt that McCoy would be much better if the Browns gave him better receivers. I loved the T-Rich pick, and then wanted the best available WR with the #22... so I'd be a hypocrite to say that I think the QB makes all the difference.

To be completely truthful, I think it's more of a 50/50 proposition. I think the QB can make the WR's better and the WR's can make the QB better... so trying to figure out which one has the most impact on total success is kind of like trying to figure out which came first, the chicken or the egg.

Hopefully Weeden can make the WR's better. And hopefully the receivers can show that they are capable of better results when they have a quality QB throwing them the ball.

But at the end of the day, I think all of the pieces fit together and work like a well oiled machine. The O-line can make or break a QB. The QB can make or break the WR's. The running back can make or break the entire offensive gameplan... the quality of the coaching and the playbook plays a role.... So it's hard to reduce it down to just QB's and WR's.

If the Browns don't have success this year, there will be a contingent of fans that feel Weeden is to blame and that the team should have stuck with McCoy. There will be another contingent that feels the receivers are to blame, but this will just further confirm that the team should have stuck with McCoy and given him a top receiver.

If the Browns do have success, it won't prove anything in some fan's eyes, because they will say that the addition of Richardson and the improvements on the O-line would have turned McCoy into a winner as well. Some fans will act like McCoy could have been equally as effective with Richardson and a revamped line. Especially considering that the Weeden pick could have been used on a receiver. So for these fans, success will not be a confirmation of H&H's vision being the right vision. They will say things like "there's more than one way to skin a cat, and this just happened to be one of them". Maybe they will be right... who knows.

So unfortunately, no matter what happens, I doubt we will have a clear consensus on anything.

I expect the Jags offense to improve more than the Browns. They already have an established running attack. Blackmon will give them an offensive weapon they haven't had since Jimmy Smith. Whatever happens at QB in Jacksonville, they won't be starting a rookie QB.

The Browns will be starting a rookie QB (barring injury or flat-out suckitude), a rookie RB and a rookie RT. The WRs are, basically, the same flotsam we trotted out last year at the position. Unless they improve dramatically this season, it won't matter who is slinging the football their way. This offense will struggle (particularly in our own division).

Like I said ... it will be an interesting experiment.

There is already talk in Jacksonville that Henne will beat out Gabbert.

I think our team is proof of the thinking by NFL types.

We addressed the QB position and not the receiver position.

but only because the WR they wanted was already taken...

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OK, QB or WR. Who makes the other better?

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Yes.

Oh yeah. It's the coach.
It's gotta be the coach.

JMHO, but another wrinkle needs consideration. The coaches put players into situations where they can have succcess. Players then execute, hopefully successfully. I do not believe these teams had aggressive O last season. Others here have noted and know that play(call)ing not to lose is not the same as doing so to win, and I feel this is reflected in the stats/records of the initial post. It certainly is not all of the issue by any stretch, but factor in the drops and we have the soul of the problem
Go after people with a clear starting rotation aggressively. If you don't catch, then you don't play. If you don't contribute, then you don't stay. But I have to believe that we improve statistically this year and the record improves as a result. But I believe getting better will need an improved sideline AND talent AND performance. I hope.

they can't exist without each other. I think that if receivers drop balls for weeden like they did for McCoy and Wallace, Weeden won't look any better..

No doubt the QB.

Now add Gordon to the mix.

j/c,

Isn't this the same as ... "what came first the chicken or the egg" debate?



I think that neither can or will reach their full potential without the other

Some QBs have the ability to put the ball in the right spot almost everytime. Some QBs do not have that ability, they tend to put it everywhere around the WR.

I would think it's a lot easier to catch a ball from the first type than the second type.

Phillip Rivers is the counter example. Aging Gates and no Vincent Jackson and he goes to hell.

Well, Rivers had a horrible game against Denver, throwing 4 INT.

However, looking at his numbers .... he is on pace for a career high in completion percentage. He is on pace for over 4000 yards. He is on pace for 27 TD, which is what he threw last year. If he throws INTs at the same pace as he had going into the Denver game, then even with that game he is on pace for 20 INT, which is what he had last year. I think that Rivers problem is more the head coach than anything else. Obviously the team around a QB makes a difference, but Rivers is very likely to have a year that is very close statistically to what he had last year. The one big difference is in his yards/pass attempt, which have really dropped from prior years.

really? you are going to try to defend your view that way? ok, since you are trying to continue down this road:

he's had the same head coach as the past few seasons.

last season he saw a significant dropoff in performance. Vincent Jackson only played 6 games, Gates played 13 while battling injuries. This was also his first season without 3rd down guru RB Darren Sproles.

this season his performance has dropped off even more. 4K is nice yards, but not when you are expecting 4600yds. completion% is nice, but YPA went from 8.8, 8.7 with his weapons to now 7.1 (no VJ deep threat). QB rating was in the 100s, now 85.3. for the year he is on pace for:

3978yds 27TDs 24INTs