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.. " There are 4 Elite players...Russell, Quinn, Thomas and Calvin... " ............................................................................................... I just posted on another thread that there two Elite players in this draft , Thomas and Calvin... .. thats it ! .. I am not all that worked up over either QB ....... 
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that is your opinion. Peterson could be elite just like the others you mentioned. Alot of people thought theat LT was not all that great either. I would be ok with any of those top players and hope they would help our team. Again, Savage knows alot more than we do no matter what ya'll think.
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If you're going to refine the use of 'elite' you're going to have to take thomas and possibly quinn out as well.
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Aren't we getting a little jobbed up here by throwing around the word "Elite" ??
It all comes down to how one wants to interepret the definition. To be blunt, if we're going to use elite as it pertains to every single draft every single year, there are 5-7 elite prospects in this draft, and Peterson is one of'em.
By another definition, one that's going to be used to determine a HOF player, there's only ONE truly elite guy in this draft and that's Johnson.
Peterson might fall because there are enough teams picking in the top-10 that don't need RB's. That doesn't devalue Peterson, simply because he isn't falling because of talent, but because of circumstances.
I'm not at all for taking Peterson over Thomas, but his injury problems, which are very legitimate concerns, doesn't stop him from being an elite prospect. All it really does is make him more of a "boom or bust" player.
There's Johnson all by himself in this draft, then there's the 2nd tier of elite players in Thomas, Russell, Peterson, Quinn, Jamaal Anderson, and Okoye. If there's any truth to devaluing some of these players, it's that Russell is PURE potential, as his mechanics are atrocious right now. Quinn is up there because he's a QB and has obvious holes in his deep ball and leadership abilities. Okoye is all upside as well because he's a freakin' baby at 19, and Anderson is this year's Mario Williams, who's got all-pro ability but is inconsistent. As good a propsect as Thomas is, his knee is an issue as is his experience. He isn't coming into the league NFL-ready. He's got more upside than Brick, and I'm sticking by my statement that he's going to be a better pro (I was 100% bullseyed on Brick and his shortcomings), but he's less ready to start than Ferguson was.
Johnson's the only elite guy in this draft. The rest have holes. That's the difference.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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... " that is your opinion... " .................................................. Ah, well , yea ! I thought thats what the board was for ??   And my fell Dawgs Like.. Toad , EO , Vers , Peen .. Will have one too 
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.. " There's Johnson all by himself in this draft, then there's the 2nd tier of elite players " .................................................................................................. I reffer to differ Amigo .. I think JT is in the first tier  .. Ah , and thats what Sundays are for ; Well September - Jan... 
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Legend
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"Alot of people thought theat LT was not all that great either."
Not a lot...just Butch 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Legend
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"If you're going to refine the use of 'elite' you're going to have to take thomas and possibly quinn out as well."
Sorry...of course you are entitled to your opinion.
There are 4 legit Elite players that teams Covet and wish to move up...How many people you hear talking to Zona to get to their 5th spot? Thats cause there aren't 5 And people are contacting us and Tampa...simply put cause there are 4 of them.
I'm basing this on fact and not opinion. As mentioned have your opinions.
There are 4!
JMHFact
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Legend
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There are 4 legit Elite players that teams Covet and wish to move up...How many people you hear talking to Zona to get to their 5th spot? Thats cause there aren't 5 And people are contacting us and Tampa...simply put cause there are 4 of them.
Game,set,match!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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There are 4 Elite players...Russell, Quinn, Thomas and Calvin.
Those are the 4 said to be coveted by teams to pay what must be paid to move up in this draft.
And to get into the top 4 to get one the FAB 4 will cost a lot more than the Chart!
And the Chart is quite expensive by itself....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Here I go quoting Boomer Esiason again: " A young QB improves the most between his first and second season" So, during this coming season either Frye "gets it" or he doesn't.
His second season was last year. He started as a rookie and started all of last season.
Exactly. And Frye did not improve and maybe even regressed. I just don't see Frye as a starter in this league, a capable back up, yes but not a starter.
Can you fairly consider those 4 starts in 2005 as a "season" , and could you consider Frye's regression to be b/c of the offensive line's regression.? There are alot of differing opinions on Frye's capabilities. The consensus is that he is at least a capable back-up and spot starter. So, having Frye on the squad gives the Browns the option of drafting a QB and having the rookie sit for a year and an insurance policy in case the draftee is a bum. This is a good position. I'm also assuming that either Russell or Quinn will be available.
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Just clicking
Reading Line Judges post with all the quotes,, (not sure who said all of that)
Look, in his rookie season, Frye started what, 4 games or 5... what's the difference.. if someone hates Frye or doesn't believe he can get the job done, they are going to point to those 5 games his rookie season and say, SEE, last year was his second year and he should have shown more improvement.
Those that think Frye still can get it done are saying,, hey, he only started 4 or 5 games in his rookie season, does that even count..
You guys all crack me up. Depending on your desire or point of view, you use the exact same facts and then you take them to mean what you want them to mean.
But what's worse, you are all doing the same thing over and over again. You are confusing Ability with Production.
Ability is What the player is personally and physically capable of doing.. He's either got it or he doesn't and you can usually see that in practice..
Production is what you see in the stats after a game or season.
Two things:
1. You can't believe your eyes totally at practice because he's not being chased by 300lb linemen that are attempting to kill him.
2. You can't believe everything you see in the stats because they don't always reflect what actually took place in a game (for instance, an INT is listed as an INT,,, Even if it bounces out of a receivers hands directly into a defenders hands.. there is no allowence for that occurance)
What does all that mean.. well to you and I, not much. We are gonna believe what we want to believe.
But the proof is in the pudding so to speak. If Savage drafts Quinn or Russell, then those who don't believe in Charlie will feel vindicated. Doesn't mean they are right, but they will feel that way.
Those that think that Charlie can still get it done are gonna feel stabbed in the heart. Doesn't mean they are wrong either. Just means, the FO of the team doesn't see it thier way.
Time will tell. IF we dump Charlie and he goes on to fame elsewhere, it's gonna be all those people that liked him here saying I TOLD YOU SO!.. If he flops, it will be the haters saying the same thing..
In other words,,, None of us can win this battle... so why bother?
In a few weeks, everything will be clearer,,
Personally, I'm not 100% sold on Charlie either.. The kid has heart and grit, but does he possess the ABILITY to get the job done? Frankly, I don't know.
But, IMO, he showed me just enough to earn the chance behind an improved Oline and some better playcalling in order to find out... It wouldn't hurt if his receivers caught the damn ball either.
But hey, that's JMO,,, and it's meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Personally, I'm not 100% sold on Charlie either.. The kid has heart and grit, but does he possess the ABILITY to get the job done? Frankly, I don't know.
But, IMO, he showed me just enough to earn the chance behind an improved Oline and some better playcalling in order to find out... It wouldn't hurt if his receivers caught the damn ball either.
But hey, that's JMO,,, and it's meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
I agree with your post in its entirety. But the part I quoted is IMO what MOST people who think we should fix the OL first believe.
It's not that many of us have ordained Charlie as "The MAN",but that we believe the jury is still out and he deserves at least a fair shot behind a decsent OL. If we can run the ball and protect Charlie,we will soon find out the answer to all of our questions.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Well your right about one thing Daman and that's that no one is going win this arguement here on this board. The rest we can agree to disagree. I happenedd to have thought that Frye was going to be a capable QB after his first 4 or 5 games but last year showed me something else and I'll stand by my conviction that Frye isn't going to be a starter in this league, a capable backup, a spot starter at best.
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Game,set,match!
Not yet  There are 4 or 5 players that people are "guessing" are elite. Three to five years from now some of those guys could be busts while fans are screaming about how did THIS GUY drop to the late first round, second round, third round, etc, etc. There will also be players who are undrafted yet end up being very good NFL players. We will not know for several years who the "Elite" players in this draft really were.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Well your right about one thing Daman and that's that no one is going win this arguement here on this board. The rest we can agree to disagree. I happenedd to have thought that Frye was going to be a capable QB after his first 4 or 5 games but last year showed me something else and I'll stand by my conviction that Frye isn't going to be a starter in this league, a capable backup, a spot starter at best.
The debate over Charlie is endless. Opinions vary, but in the end the point should be moot.
Charlie may or may not be the guy, but that doesn't change the fact that simply plugging another QB in behind a broken OL will yield the same results.
Fix the OL to where we can establish a running game and protect the QB and many of these variables behind evaluating the QB go away. Whoever's back there at least has a chance.
I don't understand why we can't all be in agreement that fixing the OL needs to be done regardless of who's at QB and that bringing in another QB without addressing the OL will inevitably lead to us all reading the same threads next year that we've been reading for the last 8 years - but we'll replace the names "Couch" and "Frye" with the next victim.
Can't we all just agree to take a step back and put an end to the cycle for once by building things the right way?
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Of course remember...unless you can Trade Down and still remain in the top 4. In that case you would take much less.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Legend
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I don't understand why we can't all be in agreement that fixing the OL needs to be done regardless of who's at QB and that bringing in another QB without addressing the OL will inevitably lead to us all reading the same threads next year that we've been reading for the last 8 years - but we'll replace the names "Couch" and "Frye" with the next victim.
I'll give you two simple answers Danglet.
1. It doesn't matter who we have at QB, if he isn't at tall as Payton Manning, doesn't have the mobilty of Elway, doesn't have as quick a release as Marino and isn't as smart as Kosar, then, to some people, he'll be a bum!
OR
2. If he wasn't drafted near the TOP of the 1st round, then to some, He's a bum and no matter what, can't be an elite QB. (anyone want tom brady)
Nobody will admit they think or believe either of those because when you put it out there like that, it looks just plain silly.
Then there are those that are as sincere as they can be.. They just feel the QB is the most important position on the team and that Charlie, for all his good intentions, just isn't good enough.
My only comment is this, if the QB is the MOST important position, then doesn't it stand to reason that those that Protect the QB are equally important?
Nobody has ever actually answered that one for me yet..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I understand we don't know who the "elite players" may turn out to be GM. I think the refrance was "elite prospects" in this draft. And as eotab stated,we haven't heard ANY rumors saying that any team has tried to "move up to #5". Only through the fourth pick. Which would indicate that there are not "5 elite prospects" in this draft. Now who those four are? That my friend is debatable depending on who you ask IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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And ......one name comes to me over all this qb....discussions...
Joe Montana..............
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I don't understand why we can't all be in agreement that fixing the OL needs to be done regardless of who's at QB and that bringing in another QB without addressing the OL will inevitably lead to us all reading the same threads next year that we've been reading for the last 8 years - but we'll replace the names "Couch" and "Frye" with the next victim.
None of this is an exact science. I remember talking to a fan a couple of years ago - who honestly believed that Gerrard Warren and Courtney Brown were the best d-line tandem in the NFL. Opinions VARY wildly.
You could make a post that says, "Can we all agree that puppy dogs are cute?" and people would oppose you. 
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I don't understand why we can't all be in agreement that fixing the OL needs to be done regardless of who's at QB and that bringing in another QB without addressing the OL will inevitably lead to us all reading the same threads next year that we've been reading for the last 8 years - but we'll replace the names "Couch" and "Frye" with the next victim.
None of this is an exact science. I remember talking to a fan a couple of years ago - who honestly believed that Gerrard Warren and Courtney Brown were the best d-line tandem in the NFL. Opinions VARY wildly.
You could make a post that says, "Can we all agree that puppy dogs are cute?" and people would oppose you.
Sad, but true. merth.
The biggest part of the frustration to me is most of us have been reading this board for years. Every year most of the threads could just be saved and reposted with a different player's name or even coach's name for that matter. The same problems over and over and over....
At some point you have to agree to stop banging your head against the door and just turn the knob - you know what I mean.
Same 'ol same 'ol just isn't working.
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Actually...I was just mentioning the chart values....If by less you mean number of picks then you are right....In the realm of value...it is Far more expensive to move up from 4 to 3 then it is for say 16 to 15.
the drop in points in the first couple spots is 400 points or a mid 2nd rounder where around 16 or so the drop is about 50 points or a low 4th rounder.
I mean if we are strictly looking at points...and in the end we aren't.....we could get 1st & 2nd from Tampa and we give 1st 4th & 5th (or Tampa gives us this year 1st & 3rd and next years 2nd for our 1st and 4th)
But if we are talking about # of picks...then yes the further down you go the far more expensive it gets...That is where you start talking about multiple first rounders....and if all you have is one then next years is usally worth the same position 1 round down...So in the Case of Houston @ #10 we are loking at This Years 1st & 2nd along with next years 1st just for our #3 overall....ok maybe we add a 5th to even up a little)
So yes, if we drop and stay in the top 4...we would take less number of picks.....but the value in points should still be somewhat similar which is expensive enough.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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You could make a post that says, "Can we all agree that puppy dogs are cute?" and people would oppose you.
No they wouldn't because all puppy dogs are CUTE
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Are not....lol
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Are too 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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At some point you have to agree to stop banging your head against the door and just turn the knob - you know what I mean... Same 'ol same 'ol just isn't working.
I 100% agree. But, all of this is opinion.
PRO: We have to take a franchise QB like Peyton Manning.
CON: We got burned with Tim Couch.
PRO: We have to take a franchise RB like LT.
CON: We got burned with (1st round) Green. There is a HUGE injury risk with AP.
PRO: We have to take the BPA - Calvin Johnson
CON: Taking multiple top 10 WRs didn't do much for Detroits win total. BE has been... ehh.
PRO: We have to take a franchise LT like Pace/Ogden. Joe Thomas!
CON: Robert Gallery was SUPPOSED to be a franchise LT too. Faine (1st round) was run out of town.
It is not an exact science. We can scream - yell - debate. NONE of these kids have played a single down of NFL football. Some of them will boom - some of them will bust. We are not driving the bus. We are passengers.
Just relax and hope for a smooth ride.
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what fun would that be? 
[color:"brown"] Top Dawg[/color] ![[Linked Image from dawg-pound.net]](http://www.dawg-pound.net/uploads/brownsfan.png)
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It is not an exact science. We can scream - yell - debate. NONE of these kids have played a single down of NFL football. Some of them will boom - some of them will bust. We are not driving the bus. We are passengers.
Just relax and hope for a smooth ride.
Oh - I probably should have clarified - I don't think drafting Joe Thomas = fixing the OL. (I wish that were all that was involved).
I can see where my comments came across as draft related, but that wasn't my intention.
My statement is more general in the sense that year after year we continue to fail to be able to run the ball (once a Browns staple) or protect the QB (especially when we need to) yet every year the majority of debates seem to center around whether the QB is good enough.
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yet every year the majority of debates seem to center around whether the QB is good enough.
That's because a vast majority of people you see posting on these boards, while they may be great fans, they're not league experts by any means (I'm trying to say this as nicely as possible, *L*).
They look at the easiest guy to spot and point a finger at, and they can't be convinced of anything other than the fact that "HE" is the guy that is the problem with this organization.
[color:"brown"] Top Dawg[/color]
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Poser
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That sound was the hammer hitting the nail firmly on the head.
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That's because a vast majority of people you see posting on these boards, while they may be great fans, they're not league experts by any means (I'm trying to say this as nicely as possible, *L*).
Are you saying that you are qualified to be called a league expert? Or is this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? You think that was nice,, I think it was condecending!
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They look at the easiest guy to spot and point a finger at, and they can't be convinced of anything other than the fact that "HE" is the guy that is the problem with this organization
If you would have simply identified them as average fans and then made this statement, you would have been fine..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No, I'm not saying I'm an expert at all, nor am I implicating anyone in particular
There are plenty of Charlie doubters who have their stuff together and have valid points about the guy's weaknesses...I'm simply giving Danglet an explanation as to why people seem to attack the quarterback despite other glaring issues that contribute to his success or lack thereof.
[color:"brown"] Top Dawg[/color]
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yet every year the majority of debates seem to center around whether the QB is good enough.
That's because a vast majority of people you see posting on these boards, while they may be great fans, they're not league experts by any means (I'm trying to say this as nicely as possible, *L*).
They look at the easiest guy to spot and point a finger at, and they can't be convinced of anything other than the fact that "HE" is the guy that is the problem with this organization.
It's human nature to watch the football, the QB is the focus of nearly all spectators. It's only natural that the QB gets the brunt of fan discussion.
[color:"white"]
Go Browns
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Hell the experts cant get it right most of the time. Otherwise once you found one there would never be a need to hire a new GM.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
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Still doesn't make it right Mav!
Ok Top,, I understand
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Still doesn't make it right Mav!
I agree with you 100%...this board is actually a refreshing place in this regard...People here tend to have a pretty good eye for other positions or at least the importance of the pieces around the QB position and the influence these pieces have on the success of a QB.
Some boards, even the mention of drafting Joe Thomas is scoffed at...I've had discussions where people dont think Thomas is worth a top 10 pick...Silly Season.
[color:"white"]
Go Browns
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Quote:
I've had discussions where people dont think Thomas is worth a top 10 pick...Silly Season.
the only reason for someone on one of these message boards to say that Thomas isn't a top 10 pick is if they have an agenda.. misinformation or disinformation or they are just plain stupid..
Maybe he is or maybe he isn't the right guy for the Browns, but not a top 10? geez,, how dumb
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,720
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,720 |
Quote:
the only reason for someone on one of these message boards to say that Thomas isn't a top 10 pick is if they have an agenda.. misinformation or disinformation or they are just plain stupid..
Maybe he is or maybe he isn't the right guy for the Browns, but not a top 10? geez,, how dumb
Now there there. I think that sounds a little conda.........ah,never mind.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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