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Let's be honest though. Kobe might have had an All-NBA big man playing with him, but the Bulls talent was further ahead of the NBA than the Lakers talent was at the time.
Jordan and Kobe are 1 and 1a.
Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, Ron Harper, John Salley for a bit, etc.
And the talent level he was playing against wasn't NEAR what Kobe plays against.
1997 all-NBA team (Jordans 5th title) (minus Jordan)
Tim Hardaway, Hakeem Olajuwan, Grant Hill, Karl Malone
2010 All-NBA team (Kobe's 5th title) (minus Kobe)
Dwayne Wade, Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Kevin Durant
Kobe plays MUCH better talent.
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Time to change lob city to flop city mwf
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the Bulls were absolutely stacked for the 2nd 3yr run.
but, the first 3yr run the league was stacked more than the Bulls.
all NBA team from 1990/91 season (MJ's first title)
Magic
Jordan
Barkley
Malone
Robinson
By 1997, the league was so ingrained with hand-checking from Riley style defense that it's tough to gauge talent in that era. It was brutal to watch, but how much was just no fouls being called no matter what?
and despite that Jordan still put up better numbers than Kobe.
#gmstrong
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LeBron signed the same exact extension that Durant did when he was his age. His just had an opt out before the last year.
Just like I said with Lebron, if they wanted out, they didn't have to sign. Lebron eventually left, but there was interest for him to stay. Remember all the hoopla with that? He waited a few days to sign and some of the blowhards at bspn were all "HES NOT GONNA SIGN HES GOIN TO THE KNICKS!!!" and then Lebron signed soon after.
It's not like Lebron wanted out the minute he got to Cleveland, I think he wanted to stay. There just wasn't enough there in his eyes. That's not all on him, but he has to take his blame. I think Danny Ferry did just about everything he could but it just didn't work out.
OKC has the same situation, but if you look at that roster, they are in better shape. They sucked harder than we did and were able to nab a few other high picks.
Cavs biggest problem was getting nothing through the lottery in LBJ's first two years when we didn't make the playoffs. It just didn't work out.
I don't think Kevin Durant is going anywhere. That guy may be a member of the Thunder for the next 10+ years.
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Michael Jordan took a year off to play baseball. One more time for extra emphasis...Michael Jordan took a year off to play baseball. Then he came back and won three more titles.
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Just like I said with Lebron, if they wanted out, they didn't have to sign.
you mean he could have signed in Europe? or China?
if he signed anywhere in the NBA (even if he left and came back ala Childress), then the Cavs (for LeBron's extension) and Thunder (Durant's) could match it and he would be "stuck" with the team.
considering that the Cavs/Thunder could(and did) offer more than anyone else as their initial offer, it would be ludicrous for them to do anything else.
#gmstrong
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Yeah, but it was an extension, couldn't he have just said, "Hey, I'll play out the rest of this contract" and then go do what he wanted?
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Michael Jordan took a year off to play baseball. One more time for extra emphasis...Michael Jordan took a year off to play baseball. Then he came back and won three more titles.
You can say it as many times as you want, but unless you wanna talk about it in the baseball thread, it has no relevance to the Kobe vs. Jordan debate.
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For the record, I think Jordan is better than Kobe, but to act like there's not a debate is just silly.
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The point was...
LeBron had The Decision.
Durant announced he re upped on Twitter.
Different kind of people.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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For the record, I think Jordan is better than Kobe, but to act like there's not a debate is just silly.
Bill Russell laughs at the 5 titles vs. 6 Kobe/MJ argument..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Bulls fans here think nobody is in the class with Jordan. I think Kobe already is, if Kobe gets 6, how can you not compare the 2?
For all the talk of MJ, Magic has 5 and never really gets mentioned in that group.
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For the record, I think Jordan is better than Kobe, but to act like there's not a debate is just silly.
I think it is silly to act like there is a debate. You say Kobe played against great competition? Kobe's first title came against the Pacers (whose starting five was 34 year old Reggie Miller, 34 year old Mark Jackson, 33 year old Rick Smits, Dale Davis and Jalen Rose.) And Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team. Shaq averaged 30/15 for the playoffs.
His second title came against the 76ers (starting five - Iverson, Eric Snow, Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, and Theo Ratliff). Not exactly the dream team. This playoffs Kobe and Shaq were almost equals. But Shaq was still better. Another 30/15 for the playoffs.
Third title, New Jersey Nets (starting five - Jason Kidd, Kerry Kittles, Keith Van Horn, Kenyon Martin, and Todd MacCulloch). Kobe and Shaq were finally equal in these playoffs.
Kobe and Shaq being equals probably led to their implosion.
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And Kobe wouldn't win another title until the Lakers were gifted another 7 footer.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Yeah, but it was an extension, couldn't he have just said, "Hey, I'll play out the rest of this contract" and then go do what he wanted?
no, the extension was just done the year before he was "technically" a RFA. he plays out that last year of the contract and then he just becomes a RFA with the Cavs having the right to match any offer.
what he could have done was play out that 1 year, take the qualifying offer (which is way less than what he got per year) and played out a 2nd year before becoming a FA (while the fans go into cataclysmic shock because there is absolutely no reason to do either of those things unless he is leaving)
noone has ever done that (Durant and Love being the latest examples of high-profile guys extending before that last year ended).
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IIRC, wasn't there a big deal about Melo resigning a full extension while LeBron, Wade and Co. only signed for 3 years?
Hmm.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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My only problem with Kobe is that from what I've read and heard, he's a god awful teammate
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And Kobe wouldn't win another title until the Lakers were gifted another 7 footer.
He was pretty much traded in 2007, but put the kibosh on it because the Bulls were giving up too much in return.
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I'm rooting for a Pacers/Thunder final... just to screw with the NBA, the networks and the "power" teams...
Beyond that, I have the same "anybody but the Heat" that most people have... behind that the teams I would NOT like to see win would be the Celtics, the Lakers.... I guess I would like to see a small market team win it all.. I could root for the Spurs even though they have had more success than the other small market teams...
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Quote:
And Kobe wouldn't win another title until the Lakers were gifted another 7 footer.
He was pretty much traded in 2007, but put the kibosh on it because the Bulls were giving up too much in return.
I find it hard to believe that, given the Kobe/MJ debate, he'd be fully ok with going to Chicago in the first place...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I'd love to see the Clippers win the whole thing.
Then we could say the Clippers won the big one before Lebron. That just sounds hilarious to me.
"FIALURE IS NOT AN OPTION...!"
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I think the networks at least could "sell" the Thunder in the Finals. Durant's first shot at a ring and all (vs. Bird's Pacer team is probably the angle).
But, Pacers v. Spurs would be an impossible sell. Spurs might have 4 titles in 10 years, but most casual fans are turned off by the previous years of pure defense (even though this year's version is worse on defense, better on offense).
I'd find that hilarious.
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Last edited by OSGuy; 05/08/12 02:19 PM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Quote:
Yeah, but it was an extension, couldn't he have just said, "Hey, I'll play out the rest of this contract" and then go do what he wanted?
no, the extension was just done the year before he was "technically" a RFA. he plays out that last year of the contract and then he just becomes a RFA with the Cavs having the right to match any offer.
what he could have done was play out that 1 year, take the qualifying offer (which is way less than what he got per year) and played out a 2nd year before becoming a FA (while the fans go into cataclysmic shock because there is absolutely no reason to do either of those things unless he is leaving)
noone has ever done that (Durant and Love being the latest examples of high-profile guys extending before that last year ended).
Yeah, then I'm mistaken. My bad. There's no way he could have gone down that road, he'd have been burned at the stake.
I still think there is no way Durant thinks about leaving. If anything I think he has a shot at maybe pulling in a really good player over the next few years. If he left, that'd be on him, as that is a championship caliber squad that is young.
It'd be foolish. We can look at the Cavs with Lebron and see reasons to why he left. Not saying it was right, but there was some writing on the wall.
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Durant got Westbrook and Harden.
LeBron got Luke Jackson and Shannon Brown.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Durant got Westbrook and Harden.
LeBron got Luke Jackson and Shannon Brown.
and let's not forget that Presti flipped his one mistake (Jeff Green) for Perkins
#gmstrong
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Orlando to start next season has...
Both Stan Van Gundy and Dwight Howard.
Dwight Howard.
Stan Van Gundy.
Neither.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I'm going out on a limb and saying SVG but not Dwight.
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Dwight. I can't see anybody trading for him until the deadline is close and Orlando is desperate to move him so that they don't get Decision'ed.
Van Gundy's time in Orlando may have run its course.
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I'm gonna say Dwight but no SVG, however any of those scenarios would not surprise me other than maybe both gone.
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anything is possible in that soap opera, but I think SVG will be fired within a week of the season ending for Orlando. they will try to make Dwight happy, realize that's impossible and swing a deal to get him out.
just not sure if that'll be easier before the draft in June or at the beginning of FA in July (i think more likely but still feeling out the new CBA rules)
no way they can let the Dwight saga play out for 'another' year, can they?
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anything is possible in that soap opera, but I think SVG will be fired within a week of the season ending for Orlando. they will try to make Dwight happy, realize that's impossible and swing a deal to get him out.
just not sure if that'll be easier before the draft in June or at the beginning of FA in July (i think more likely but still feeling out the new CBA rules)
no way they can let the Dwight saga play out for 'another' year, can they?
What's the alternative? Being a lottery team? Not all that fun, as we are find that out again.
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Any chance Orlando can swing Dwight for a lottery pick this year?
Would anyone give one up for Dwight?
I'd rather have Davis than Dwight, but if they are going to trade him, they could get a young guy aswell...
The ONLY problem is, nobodies going to trade for him without a new deal on the table, basically allowing him to pick his spot.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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And he's not going to want to go to a lottery team.
I'm not gonna lie, I'd probably take him if I were the Cavs and had the chance, but I'm kinda glad we're out of that mix, the guy has turned into a diva the last few years. I'm happy going with the lottery and drafting guys who want to be a part of building something, instead of a guy who wants it all set out for him.
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the Blazers would be the obvious choice. they have 2 lottery picks, they have a good young base. but, Dwight has made it clear that he wanted a select group of places and Portland was not on that list.
for fun, could you imagine Dwight in Golden State? SF is a cool town, great fanbase, and he'd actually make that team decent at defense by himself.
is 1 lottery pick and a 2014 1st round pick enough for Orlando to give up Dwight for? and, can they make it work under the cap?
--------------------
I just don't believe if they go through this soap opera they'll be any better than a 4seed next year and they'll get so frustrated they might make a rash decision at the deadline.
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Relating it to Kobe is a good way to put it, how you feel about LeBron is more how I feel toward Kobe, I don't hate him, and I don't root for him but his "adultery" scandal really tarnished an athlete I used to be a fan of. Quote:
Why?
Because he's a whiny d-bag, and always has been the biggest drama queen in the league.
His comments post-decision when someone asked him if Lebron tried to get him to come to Cleveland before they decided on Miami are enough alone. Go look them up.
I just don't care about Lebron anymore. I don't hate the guy, I don't root for him. He gave us 7 fun years of exciting basketball. Wade just irritates me. Just a guy I can't stand, and didn't like even when we had Lebron.
You know how some people just hate Kobe? I don't hate Kobe at all. I have always been neutral (although some of his fanboys are laughable) well I feel that way about Wade.
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Remember back in 2000-2004, when we had an Olympic team that featured guys like Vince Carter, Allen Iverson and Stephen Marbury ... and they just felt they only needed to show up and the gold medal was theirs. They had this sort of brash cockiness about them, and you almost wanted to cheer for the other teams to beat them (if not just outright rooted for them).
So then they lost in 2002 and 2004 ... and they brought in this new team of youngsters that you could really pull for again. And when they won in 2008, it felt like an acomplishment again.
... Now with the same guys, it's almost like we're back to 2004. We got whiny entitled babies, we've got floppers, we've got guys that just seem like they should have the medals shipped straight to their house. It's hard to root for these guys again.
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Pretty much, I don't think they're all like that, but too many of the good ones are.
The one great thing about the playoffs is that it weeds out the guys like that. You find out who the quitters are and who the guys who want to put that extra work in are.
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Steve Kerr wrote a nice article about changing the Draft age limit to 20.
I agree with him.
In the case of LeBron, laying against College level players really wouldn't have improved his game too much IMO. But I think everything else could have improved him as a person.
What if he made it to the Final Four (I assume with Ohio State) and playing all those high pressure games could of helped him with his late game non-heroics.
Maybe being on a College Basketball team, would of seperated him from his "friends" and given him a role model (his coach) or maybe just in general, he could of grown up?
And then you look at a guy like Irving, most knew he was talented, but only playing one year (11 games total) we didn't know WHAT we were getting, what if he turned out to be a Kwame Brown? Where would we be then?
The NBA already has an age limit, I think pushing it back another year would only benefit the players, and the league.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I've been of the opinion, since they changed the eligibility requirements, that kids should have the option to declare for the draft straight out of high school, but if they opt to play college ball they should have to stay either 2 or 3 years minimum (3 is my preference). There are some players who clearly have the skill set to excel right away. I don't think they should be denied the option. However, while I'm not a big college hoops fan, I hate the one-and-done stuff. I don't think there's a more disingenuous situation in major sports than a kid enrolling in a couple gen ed courses for a semester before he enters the draft and heralding him as a "student-athlete".
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