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Legend
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We need them in our economy, we want them in our economy. They're there for a reason.
Total bullcrap, we don't want them or need them. What we need and want is them out, so that american citizens can have jobs to feed their families, and we can quit wasting our tax dollars on them.
Furthermore, we need to stop incentifying the movement of jobs off shore. If a company wants to do that, fine, but the savings on labor should be enough of an incentive..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I represented a guy born in Sweden. At 8 months old, his entire family moved, legally, to the U.S. He never even thought about his immigration status. He became a drug addict and got busted. Then he cleaned himself up, go married, has two kids, and started a construction company that employs 35 people. He is now being deported to a country he's never set foot in since he was born, where they speak a language he doesn't know, away from his 3 and 5 year old kids, from his wife and parents, and his company has to be dissolved. That's 35 jobs we just threw down the toilet, not to mention all the volunteer work he does keeping people off drugs, sponsoring addicts, volunteering at church, feeding the hungry (they sponsor a family in the U.S.), and devastating his citizen children and wife, completing souring them to the U.S. government and forcing them to grow up without a father. It is a complete waste of federal resources and a travesty to human dignity. These are the laws you want to tout we should be bending backwards to enforce. Hogwash.
Aside from decendents of native americans, there is no one here that isn't the child of an immigrant, legal and illegal alike. The native language of our country is not English, its a thousand different Native American languages. Our forefathers all committed treason. Martin Luther King was a criminal. So was Rush Limbaugh. So was every citizen of the South during the civil war. So was every person who violated the countless idiotic laws that were and still are on the books in some places. Laws making it illegal to sleep with someone of a different race, to have oral sex with your spouse, or the number of jim crow laws that kept people from voting. There were laws against associating with a communist, laws against drinking alcohol, laws against exposing your ankles in public, laws against having japanese heritage. We've had slavery and legalized discrimination, rape, and child abuse at different times in our history. At a certain point, you have to grow a mind and stop believing that all laws are correct and must be obeyed no matter what. Sometimes laws must be broken for the greater good or to prevent a greater evil. Some laws violate God's law and nature's law. (I encourage anyone to show me the passage in the bible that talks about the sin of illegal immigration).
Our immigration policies cause more harm than good. Economic harm, security harm, and moral harm. I hear so many of you clamor for stricter enforcement of laws. That requires more money we don't have and will cripple businesses, further causing economic harm to our country just as we appear to be turning a corner in the recession. This war on illegal immigration is as much a waste as the war on drugs. The drug war will never be won. billions of dollars wasted. Keeping out people who are desperate for opportunity will never happen until there is no longer opportunity here. So you'll get your wish when our economy falls apart as bad as Mexico.
For every immigrant we waste resources prosecuting and deporting, that's another chance for a terrorist to get through, someone who actually wants to harm us as oppose to join us. We can either bankrupt ourselves trying to keep tabs on every person who tries to enter our borders, or we can accept the fact that there are some people who aren't born here that can contribute to our society and our economy. And don't come back with "just do it legally." If you are born in San Salvador, are a broke laborer who didn't attend college, and don't have family here, you can not become a citizen legally.
Not one person who was born in this country earned their citizenship. Not one. Being born here was nothing you did and nothing you can control. We are a nation that recognizes people by their merits, not the merits of their parents (In fact, that's actually in the Constitution). And I doubt there is one adult in the country who has not broken a law. If I meet one, it'll be the first. We have laws against speeding, against jaywalking, against littering, against not having a bell on your bicycle, against giving your child a sip of wine. We've all transgressed. Doesn't mean we don't deserve to live here and it doesn't mean we don't have something to contribute.
If you are ignorant of the truth of what the consequences of our immigration policies actually are, or the history of blaming immigrants for problems that they don't cause, or have up to this point just been blinded by the politics of sensationalist bigotry, then there is ample opportunity for you to learn the truth and when you do, I'm confident you will change as I have and your stance about immigration will change. If you refuse to learn, however, and wish to remain willfully ignorant, I'm not going to fight with you. You'll never change my stance by regurgitating the stats and opinions of anti-immigration hacks. I've been there, I've seen the other side, and I know that's its a bunch of BS.
Just know this: You will never win. You will never get rid of the illegal immigrants until you make them legal. You will never keep others out of our country until you make our country not worth living in for anybody. You will never keep enlightened people from feeling compassion for those who were not born into the privilege we were. And you will never stop me and people like me from trying to educate every kid who wants to learn, trying to employ every person who wants to work, and trying to fight every unjust and immoral immigration law that is on the books.
God bless you all.
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Legend
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Joined: Sep 2006
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And I doubt there is one adult in the country who has not broken a law. If I meet one, it'll be the first. We have laws against speeding, against jaywalking, against littering, against not having a bell on your bicycle, against giving your child a sip of wine.
People are not perfect, that's why we have laws. If someone intentionally violates a law, he should man up and take his medicine....not break the law first and then whine about the "unfairness" of it.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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there's alot there on that soapbox that can be nitpicked; I don't really care to, but I'm sure others would. this line made me laugh though: Quote:
For every immigrant we waste resources prosecuting and deporting, that's another chance for a terrorist to get through, someone who actually wants to harm us as oppose to join us.
because opening up the borders and allowing everyone to automatically get in and become citizens is going to make it "tougher" for terrorists to get into our country? please explain.
#gmstrong
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2nd String
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there's alot there on that soapbox that can be nitpicked; I don't really care to, but I'm sure others would.
this line made me laugh though:
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For every immigrant we waste resources prosecuting and deporting, that's another chance for a terrorist to get through, someone who actually wants to harm us as oppose to join us.
because opening up the borders and allowing everyone to automatically get in and become citizens is going to make it "tougher" for terrorists to get into our country? please explain.
the resources we spend on people who are clearly not a threat. Long after it has been determined that an illegal immigrant laboring as a busser in a restaurant is not a terrorist, for example, we continue to spend money arresting him, prosecuting him, transporting him, housing him in jail, having court hearings ( that require attorneys, clerks, U.S. Marshals, etc.), then shipping him back to his country, only to do it all again later. The same as if we put every citizen in the country through a 2 month detainment, investigation, and prosecution so we can catch the few domestic terrorist. Incredibly inefficient way to catch dangerous criminals.
American citizens get stopped at the border. They show their papers, maybe their names are run through a database, and they get through. Illegals take up countless hours and money sending them back, to no real effect on Illegal immigration, and that time and money is better spent actually protecting our border from violent terrorists.
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2nd String
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And I doubt there is one adult in the country who has not broken a law. If I meet one, it'll be the first. We have laws against speeding, against jaywalking, against littering, against not having a bell on your bicycle, against giving your child a sip of wine.
People are not perfect, that's why we have laws. If someone intentionally violates a law, he should man up and take his medicine....not break the law first and then whine about the "unfairness" of it.
Why not do both? MLK broke laws intentionally, as did George Washington. they manned up and took their medicine, then whined about the unfairness of it.
Many true criminals complain about how unfair the system is, how their upbringing caused their problems, blah blah blah. Illegal immigrants being prosecuted for illegal entry never complain about the unfairness of it. It's kind of amazing really, that they don't. They're upset about their situation, they worry about their families, they miss their job, but they don't complain. They know the risks. They man up and take the consequences. I'm the guy whining about what BS it is.
By the way, do you ever complain about getting a speeding ticket on a road where everyone else was going just as fast?
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Legend
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It's a sad tale you tell about that guy,, I feel for him and frankly, his parents were idiots for not dealing with this when he was a child.
As for him not taking care of it sooner, I couldn't get a Drivers License the first time without a Birth Certificate.. Same with a SS Card. I got my SS Card at the Post Office at the time. Things may have changed since then but seems as if somewhere along the line, he'd have had to show a Birth Certificate.
That should have been a tip off that something wasn't kosher..
oversight... sure. correctable, I'd think so.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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And I doubt there is one adult in the country who has not broken a law. If I meet one, it'll be the first. We have laws against speeding, against jaywalking, against littering, against not having a bell on your bicycle, against giving your child a sip of wine.
People are not perfect, that's why we have laws. If someone intentionally violates a law, he should man up and take his medicine....not break the law first and then whine about the "unfairness" of it.
By the way, the context of that statement was that being a criminal doesn't make you a bad person, or make the law correct. Calling an illegal immigrant a criminal as a foundation for coming down on people without papers is hypocritical,that's my point. Unless you feel it's okay to banish citizen's from their homes and their families for intentionally going over the speed limit, that stance is BS.
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2nd String
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It's a sad tale you tell about that guy,, I feel for him and frankly, his parents were idiots for not dealing with this when he was a child.
As for him not taking care of it sooner, I couldn't get a Drivers License the first time without a Birth Certificate.. Same with a SS Card. I got my SS Card at the Post Office at the time. Things may have changed since then but seems as if somewhere along the line, he'd have had to show a Birth Certificate.
That should have been a tip off that something wasn't kosher..
oversight... sure. correctable, I'd think so.
He was legally here. He was a legal permanent resident with a green card. Once you commit a drug offense, you get deported. No exceptions. He has drivers' license, a social security card, and all that. Doesn't matter.
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This is a really long post, so I apologize about that. I think I offer something of an interesting viewpoint, as I'm an American citizen working full-time in a Mexican assembly plant (as a project engineer). I just wanted to point out what I believe is the unknown or little-known hypocrisy coming from illegal aliens coming from Mexico. That's just my opinion based on my experience of living in California and, lately, working in Mexico.
Since this is rapidly devolving into a general immigration thread, I just wanted to share a couple things from my experience over the past 1.5-2 years. My position in the company I worked for was eliminated, so to keep my working on this project I have, the manufacturing facility in Mexico grabbed me. I commute almost every day to Mexico, and I'm officially a Tijuana employee.
1. Work permits - Mexico is crazy about work permits. If I come down to work for one day (which I frequently did before the change), I had to have my work permit with me. Even today, I get my work visa checked every day at the gate. If it's expired and I haven't renewed it, I get turned away (can't enter the building). If the office of immigration shows up and I don't have my docs on me (I'm not even talking about if they're current and everything), they haul me off to jail, slap me with a ~$500 fine, and hit the company with a several hundred thousand dollar fine (I think, all I know is it's big). The penalty is the same if I don't carry the paperwork with me at all times as if my paperwork is expired. Let me reiterate that the guards that I'm on a first-name basis with won't let me into the building if I don't have my work permit on me. I compare the laws and the enforcement of those laws between Mexico and USA and just laugh.
1a. Work Permits (continued) - Do you know how much of a pain in the ass it is to get a "permanent" work permit in Mexico? It's a several month process that requires tons of paperwork and 1 or more interviews (I wouldn't know, I'm getting by on temporary work visas until the company forces me to get a permanent one... one headache at a time, I say). I'm not 100% sure if I would be able to afford it on my own, either, and I'm an engineer.
2. Language - I learned Spanish (well, Spanglish, but close enough) to work in Mexico. When it became official that I was working down here, they (the folks that I work with) made a point make sure I was learning Spanish and not relying on others understanding my English. I don't really have a problem with this. I work in this country, so I learn the language (it works both ways), and the folks here have been really patient with me. The only thing is, I can really sympathize folks up in the states who have to learn English. Learning a new language is tough, and it's so frustrating to sit there and struggle to communicate. Really embarrassing when I have to umm and stutter my way through simple sentences in a meeting.
3. Enforcement of borders - Actually, I'm talking about Mexico enforcing it's own southern border. While much is made of the US enforcing it's own southern border, and the outcry you hear from the general Hispanic population, you don't hear much about Mexico's enforcement of its own southern border. I almost spit out my coffee when they were talking about building a huge fence along the entire MX - Guatemala border to keep illegal aliens from taking construction jobs from Mexican citizens. Go ahead, laugh, but it's true. Other measures to keep aliens out of Mexico aren't documented, but are talked about (shoot-on-sight and the like). Illegal aliens flooding in from Guatemala are a real problem for Mexico's southern states, and they are responding to it. I never hear about giving those people amnesty or any garbage like that. What drives me nuts is that there's this huge debate about illegal aliens from Mexico here in the US, but then in Mexico the same problem (and its solution) is so simple. Drive them (Guatemalans) out and keep them out.
4. Voting - Did you know that you need an official voting card to vote in Mexico's elections? That doesn't sound like much, but just think about it for a minute. You need an official document from the government that says you can vote. You know who can't get one of those? Immigrants (legal or not). Could you even imagine the uproar if the US government were to start up that type of rule (effectively keeping anybody without proper papers from voting in any elections)? I know I can't.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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2nd String
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This is a really long post, so I apologize about that. I think I offer something of an interesting viewpoint, as I'm an American citizen working full-time in a Mexican assembly plant (as a project engineer). I just wanted to point out what I believe is the unknown or little-known hypocrisy coming from illegal aliens coming from Mexico. That's just my opinion based on my experience of living in California and, lately, working in Mexico.
Since this is rapidly devolving into a general immigration thread, I just wanted to share a couple things from my experience over the past 1.5-2 years. My position in the company I worked for was eliminated, so to keep my working on this project I have, the manufacturing facility in Mexico grabbed me. I commute almost every day to Mexico, and I'm officially a Tijuana employee.
1. Work permits - Mexico is crazy about work permits. If I come down to work for one day (which I frequently did before the change), I had to have my work permit with me. Even today, I get my work visa checked every day at the gate. If it's expired and I haven't renewed it, I get turned away (can't enter the building). If the office of immigration shows up and I don't have my docs on me (I'm not even talking about if they're current and everything), they haul me off to jail, slap me with a ~$500 fine, and hit the company with a several hundred thousand dollar fine (I think, all I know is it's big). The penalty is the same if I don't carry the paperwork with me at all times as if my paperwork is expired. Let me reiterate that the guards that I'm on a first-name basis with won't let me into the building if I don't have my work permit on me. I compare the laws and the enforcement of those laws between Mexico and USA and just laugh.
1a. Work Permits (continued) - Do you know how much of a pain in the ass it is to get a "permanent" work permit in Mexico? It's a several month process that requires tons of paperwork and 1 or more interviews (I wouldn't know, I'm getting by on temporary work visas until the company forces me to get a permanent one... one headache at a time, I say). I'm not 100% sure if I would be able to afford it on my own, either, and I'm an engineer.
2. Language - I learned Spanish (well, Spanglish, but close enough) to work in Mexico. When it became official that I was working down here, they (the folks that I work with) made a point make sure I was learning Spanish and not relying on others understanding my English. I don't really have a problem with this. I work in this country, so I learn the language (it works both ways), and the folks here have been really patient with me. The only thing is, I can really sympathize folks up in the states who have to learn English. Learning a new language is tough, and it's so frustrating to sit there and struggle to communicate. Really embarrassing when I have to umm and stutter my way through simple sentences in a meeting.
3. Enforcement of borders - Actually, I'm talking about Mexico enforcing it's own southern border. While much is made of the US enforcing it's own southern border, and the outcry you hear from the general Hispanic population, you don't hear much about Mexico's enforcement of its own southern border. I almost spit out my coffee when they were talking about building a huge fence along the entire MX - Guatemala border to keep illegal aliens from taking construction jobs from Mexican citizens. Go ahead, laugh, but it's true. Other measures to keep aliens out of Mexico aren't documented, but are talked about (shoot-on-sight and the like). Illegal aliens flooding in from Guatemala are a real problem for Mexico's southern states, and they are responding to it. I never hear about giving those people amnesty or any garbage like that. What drives me nuts is that there's this huge debate about illegal aliens from Mexico here in the US, but then in Mexico the same problem (and its solution) is so simple. Drive them (Guatemalans) out and keep them out.
4. Voting - Did you know that you need an official voting card to vote in Mexico's elections? That doesn't sound like much, but just think about it for a minute. You need an official document from the government that says you can vote. You know who can't get one of those? Immigrants (legal or not). Could you even imagine the uproar if the US government were to start up that type of rule (effectively keeping anybody without proper papers from voting in any elections)? I know I can't.
Thanks for the education. I didn't know all that. I can't say I'm crazy about the Mexican government at all.
As to your last point, there actually is a movement by republicans here to require people to have a special document to vote - voter ID card . I'm sure there are plenty on this board that support it. The true target appears to be minorities, since illegals almost never even attempt to vote for fear of being caught and deported.
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Legend
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I can't argue with your first point. I was expecting you to argue something like, "so you want to be more like the Mexican government?"  To clarify (since my posts are pretty much me mentally throwing up via keyboard), I just wanted to draw people's attention to similar issues going on in Mexico, where Mexico and its citizens are on the other side of the debate, and their reactions. I don't understand how a voter ID card discriminates against anyone that is legally here in this country. You lost me on that one.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Legend
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I can't argue with your first point. I was expecting you to argue something like, "so you want to be more like the Mexican government?"
To clarify (since my posts are pretty much me mentally throwing up via keyboard), I just wanted to draw people's attention to similar issues going on in Mexico, where Mexico and its citizens are on the other side of the debate, and their reactions.
I don't understand how a voter ID card discriminates against anyone that is legally here in this country. You lost me on that one.
I have a voters registration card that I have to display along with photo ID when I vote here.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Tangent alert: I'm also biased by the government and party sponsored ads on radio. Those things are brutal to listen to (obnoxious), and are flooding certain popular radio stations in the San Diego area. Certain (English-speaking) radio stations broadcast their signals out of Mexico. I'm assuming the reason for this is $$$ and possibly allowing the tower to broadcast with a higher intensity (just a guess). Part of the deal is that a certain amount of broadcast time is set aside for ads run by the Mexican government and political parties. Man, those ads are brutal. They're poorly translated, narrated by the same people (same voices) broadcast 5-6 at a time, and often the exact same ad is repeated (you know, just to make sure they heard you). This alone would drive any unbiased person to hate anything Mexcio... 
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Legend
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The difference is that, in Mexico, a voter ID card is mandated by the federal government. In the US, it's up to the states, so some states have ID requirements, and some don't. I don't know which states do what.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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2nd String
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This alone would drive any unbiased person to hate anything Mexcio...
Except tacos. Nobody hates tacos.
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Legend
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Can you find me any state that has seen a drop off in minority participation in elections since implementing voter ID laws?
In Ohio, we have a voter ID law that is so lax that it is almost worthless .... but it's a start. It requires a voter to provide some form if ID, even if it's only a utility bill, bank statement, or government check.
A voter who has absolutely no ID can still vote a provisional ballot and provide ID at a later time.
It just amazes me that people have some major problem with proving that they are legally eligible to vote in US and Local elections. This is a right reserved for citizens, and only citizens should be allowed to participate. If someone wants non-citizens to vote, then put together a Constitutional amendment and start the amendment process. Otherwise, it's not hard to get an ID. In some states, they will even pay for the ID for poor residents. The only reason for people to stand in the way of voter ID laws is to try and creatively add voters to the rolls who are not legally eligible to vote. People can whine about how "hard" it is to get an ID ...... but it really isn't. It takes about 15 minutes. It is a minimal cost, and most state statutes allow for the cost to be paid for poor people who cannot afford it.
If someone wants to make the effort to vote, I don't think that it is too much to ask that they also take the time to prove that they are legally eligible to vote ...... just like I do when I vote.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I honestly don't know much about the voter ID stuff and don't have much of an opinion. I just have heard the summary of opinions on the news claiming that the target is minorities. I don't know why that is.
I do remember what a huge debacle the ID thing was in Florida in 2000, where something like 90,000 people, the vast majority who were black, were denied access to vote because they didn't have IDs, or they had the same name as a felon or something? anybody remember that?
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Legend
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The reason that Democrats say that it targets minorities is, frankly, because they can say that. They have no proof, and I still dare someone to show me how voter ID laws affect minority turnout.
As far as Florida, I don't recall 100%. I don't know what the situation was, but all people eligible to vote should be allowed to do so, and those who are not should absolutely not be allowed to. That's why the provisional ballot system is so important, if used properly.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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It's a sad tale you tell about that guy,, I feel for him and frankly, his parents were idiots for not dealing with this when he was a child.
As for him not taking care of it sooner, I couldn't get a Drivers License the first time without a Birth Certificate.. Same with a SS Card. I got my SS Card at the Post Office at the time. Things may have changed since then but seems as if somewhere along the line, he'd have had to show a Birth Certificate.
That should have been a tip off that something wasn't kosher..
oversight... sure. correctable, I'd think so.
He was legally here. He was a legal permanent resident with a green card. Once you commit a drug offense, you get deported. No exceptions. He has drivers' license, a social security card, and all that. Doesn't matter.
I'm no lawyer, but isn't there a difference between a natural born citizen, naturalized citizen and legal permanent resident?
How old was this guy,, why didn't he try to become a citizen?
Look, I know what I"m saying is hindsight. but if you look above at an earlier post of mine, I really truly believe that people that want to live here, should become US citizens. period..
Like I said, I feel for the guy.. it's a sad tale to be sure. I wish him the best. everyone screws up at one point of another.. hope it works out for him.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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It's a sad tale you tell about that guy,, I feel for him and frankly, his parents were idiots for not dealing with this when he was a child.
As for him not taking care of it sooner, I couldn't get a Drivers License the first time without a Birth Certificate.. Same with a SS Card. I got my SS Card at the Post Office at the time. Things may have changed since then but seems as if somewhere along the line, he'd have had to show a Birth Certificate.
That should have been a tip off that something wasn't kosher..
oversight... sure. correctable, I'd think so.
He was legally here. He was a legal permanent resident with a green card. Once you commit a drug offense, you get deported. No exceptions. He has drivers' license, a social security card, and all that. Doesn't matter.
I'm no lawyer, but isn't there a difference between a natural born citizen, naturalized citizen and legal permanent resident?
How old was this guy,, why didn't he try to become a citizen?
Look, I know what I"m saying is hindsight. but if you look above at an earlier post of mine, I really truly believe that people that want to live here, should become US citizens. period..
Like I said, I feel for the guy.. it's a sad tale to be sure. I wish him the best. everyone screws up at one point of another.. hope it works out for him.
There is no difference between a person born here and a naturalized citizen. A legal permanent resident is a citizen of another country. They have a green card.
he was in his forties. I imagine it never occurred to him because no one cared 30 years ago, and it never had an effect on his life, other than voting, which the majority of citizen don't even bother to do. He never thought he would face deportation before he became a drug addict. It was obviously a mistake, but there is no question he wants to be here. He's never known any other home in his life, never even visited Sweden. has no family there at all.
And it didn't work out for him. He's being sent away, his family is devastated, his business is destroyed, and he'll have to start completely over in a foreign country where he doesn't speak the language or even have a drivers license. His two little girls are inconsolable. His wife is trying to figure out how to move to Sweden from California. They don't have a place to live, a job, or a friend in that country. It'd be like you getting fired, thrown in jail, and deported to Istanbul tomorrow. I just hope to God he doesn't relapse, because if he does, he'll probably end up dead. His recovery from drug addiction and the strides he made in his life were one of the most impressive things i've ever witnessed. It breaks my heart what his kids are going through. Multiply that by 10,000,000, and you have a sense of the current state of immigration. It's a daily tragedy. Which really says something, because most of them are willing to risk it for the CHANCE at a decent life.
But let's throw them in jail and kick their kids out of school, because people born here might have to pay an extra buck or two in taxes.  How some people can call themselves a Christian with a straight face is baffling.
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Legend
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On the other hand .......
We have rules and laws governing legal immigration. These are an absolute necessity if we are to even hope to manage the influx of people into our country. Part of the process should be that the immigrant abides by our laws while he is here.
If a citizen is caught doing something illegal, then he can be put in jail as a punishment. I would imagine that this is an enormous strain on a family. They would be missing a paycheck, and probably the biggest paycheck in the family.The kids would have to be without their dad. The family might have to move as a result. Businesses are destroyed, and lives are forever altered.
Should we then just ignore our laws and not jail people who commit crimes because it could have a negative effect on their family? People make decisions, and they have to live with them. What happened to the guy you brought up is really unfortunate, but he knew the rules, and he chose to break them.
It is terrible that this had such a strong negative impact on his family .... but he is the one who broke the law. It sucks that his family, as is often the case in such situations, has to pay the price.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Wow, a lot of good discussion going on... as far as the guy from Sweden, sounds like a bad situation. Unfortunately we have laws to govern 300+ million people. I wish we could inject some common sense into those laws because sometimes the strict application of the law doesn't seem to fit and this looks like one of those cases. I also understand that MLK and others have taken a stand against what they feel are unjust laws to make a political statement... I have no problem with that but be prepared to pay the price if you do. If enough people do, or enough people of high profile do, they have had success in getting laws changed. If that's your mission, go for it.... but as long as it's the law, expect to be punished if you break it in protest. As far as the immigration/guest worker provisions in Mexico and how they handle their southern border, I've heard most of that before and it doesn't surprise me... As for what injustices we did 200-300 years ago and felt justified in doing.. I don't really care, we are supposed to be going forward and correcting those... sometimes I wonder if we are, but we are supposed to be. Quote:
You will never keep others out of our country until you make our country not worth living in for anybody.
This is the most telling comment in your whole soapbox rant.... because we are on our way there. 
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Quote:
You will never keep others out of our country until you make our country not worth living in for anybody.
This is the most telling comment in your whole soapbox rant.... because we are on our way there.
Heading there, but we are still a destinaton for others to get here. And instead of punishing them and deporting them when we find them, we basically slap their wrist and let me go. Heck, we even bend over backwards to help them out.
Look at L.A. when they want to stop towing and imponding illegal immigrant's cars if they are found driving without a license. They want to let them get someone with one to drive it home. However, if you ever had a license and get caught doing the same thing, they'll impound your car. So in L.A. it's better to never get a license and just drive anyways, because after all there is no real punishment to do so. Of course, they are doing this because it is a "hardship" on their family. Their family shouldn't be here to begin with and it shouldn't be easy to live here illegally. I understand that we simply cannot deport them all, but why in the world are we making it easier for them to stay here? This is sending a message to tell others to come here because there is really no punishment to do so.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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Legend
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You should know, this guy you mention isn't the kinda illegal immigrent I want kicked out of the country.. First of all, he's not here illigally from what you say.. so don't compare apples to oranges.
I'm talking about the folk that come here in the dead of night in the back of a truck or running across the borders and then use up resources that you and I pay for.
Them, I want gone,, outta here.. No Questions Asked.
Your guy is a much different situation. I'm having a hard time believing that something/someone can't see this for what it is,,, misuse of power and a law.
JMHO however
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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2nd String
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Quote:
You should know, this guy you mention isn't the kinda illegal immigrent I want kicked out of the country.. First of all, he's not here illigally from what you say.. so don't compare apples to oranges.
I'm talking about the folk that come here in the dead of night in the back of a truck or running across the borders and then use up resources that you and I pay for.
Them, I want gone,, outta here.. No Questions Asked.
Your guy is a much different situation. I'm having a hard time believing that something/someone can't see this for what it is,,, misuse of power and a law.
JMHO however
You mean hispanics.
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2nd String
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You will never keep others out of our country until you make our country not worth living in for anybody.
This is the most telling comment in your whole soapbox rant.... because we are on our way there.
Heading there, but we are still a destinaton for others to get here. And instead of punishing them and deporting them when we find them, we basically slap their wrist and let me go. Heck, we even bend over backwards to help them out.
Look at L.A. when they want to stop towing and imponding illegal immigrant's cars if they are found driving without a license. They want to let them get someone with one to drive it home. However, if you ever had a license and get caught doing the same thing, they'll impound your car. So in L.A. it's better to never get a license and just drive anyways, because after all there is no real punishment to do so. Of course, they are doing this because it is a "hardship" on their family. Their family shouldn't be here to begin with and it shouldn't be easy to live here illegally. I understand that we simply cannot deport them all, but why in the world are we making it easier for them to stay here? This is sending a message to tell others to come here because there is really no punishment to do so.
I live in LA. I'm a lawyer here. You have absolutely zero idea what you are talking about.
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Quote:
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You should know, this guy you mention isn't the kinda illegal immigrent I want kicked out of the country.. First of all, he's not here illigally from what you say.. so don't compare apples to oranges.
I'm talking about the folk that come here in the dead of night in the back of a truck or running across the borders and then use up resources that you and I pay for.
Them, I want gone,, outta here.. No Questions Asked.
Your guy is a much different situation. I'm having a hard time believing that something/someone can't see this for what it is,,, misuse of power and a law.
JMHO however
You mean hispanics.
Hispanics, Asians, Indians, Germans, French, Italian, English, Scottish, Canadian, Russian. ANYONE who is here illegally should be shown the door. Don't turn this into a racism issue because it isn't. It is an issue of depleting our resources for people who shouldn't be here in the first place.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
You should know, this guy you mention isn't the kinda illegal immigrent I want kicked out of the country.. First of all, he's not here illigally from what you say.. so don't compare apples to oranges.
I'm talking about the folk that come here in the dead of night in the back of a truck or running across the borders and then use up resources that you and I pay for.
Them, I want gone,, outta here.. No Questions Asked.
Your guy is a much different situation. I'm having a hard time believing that something/someone can't see this for what it is,,, misuse of power and a law.
JMHO however
You mean hispanics.
I mean anyone., hispanics, Iranians, French, British,, I don't care.., if you come here illegally, I want you gone. I don't care if you are from a friendly country, unfriendly, oil rich etc. if you cross our borders illegally, I want you gone.
If you come here legally, take proper steps to set up residency (whatever they are) find a job, become a citizen when you allowed to, pay your taxes, obey our laws.,., then I got no problem with you being here.. NONE..
did I make that clear enough for you..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You will never keep others out of our country until you make our country not worth living in for anybody.
This is the most telling comment in your whole soapbox rant.... because we are on our way there.
Heading there, but we are still a destinaton for others to get here. And instead of punishing them and deporting them when we find them, we basically slap their wrist and let me go. Heck, we even bend over backwards to help them out.
Look at L.A. when they want to stop towing and imponding illegal immigrant's cars if they are found driving without a license. They want to let them get someone with one to drive it home. However, if you ever had a license and get caught doing the same thing, they'll impound your car. So in L.A. it's better to never get a license and just drive anyways, because after all there is no real punishment to do so. Of course, they are doing this because it is a "hardship" on their family. Their family shouldn't be here to begin with and it shouldn't be easy to live here illegally. I understand that we simply cannot deport them all, but why in the world are we making it easier for them to stay here? This is sending a message to tell others to come here because there is really no punishment to do so.
I live in LA. I'm a lawyer here. You have absolutely zero idea what you are talking about.
"OH I'm a lawyer in LA! I know more than you!" Then you care to enlighten us with your "facts" and say why I am so uninformed.
Los Angeles Police Commision approves Car Impound Changes. And BTW, the unlicensed drivers in the story, normally are illegal immigrants. They ar not some teenager who hasn't got their license yet. And, the key words in this article is "Drivers who caused an accident, were previously stopped without a driver's license or who had their licenses suspended or revoked would not qualify for leniency." which basically means if you have ever got a license to begin with and follow the law in that aspect, you do not qualify. And, how are the police going to keep track on how many times a person with no legal documentation got pulled over for driving without a license? Do you really believe they will be able to maintain a database like that?
But please if I do not know what is exactly going on, then please tell me why I am so wrong instead of just claiming that I am with nothing to back it up.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
Quote:
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You should know, this guy you mention isn't the kinda illegal immigrent I want kicked out of the country.. First of all, he's not here illigally from what you say.. so don't compare apples to oranges.
I'm talking about the folk that come here in the dead of night in the back of a truck or running across the borders and then use up resources that you and I pay for.
Them, I want gone,, outta here.. No Questions Asked.
Your guy is a much different situation. I'm having a hard time believing that something/someone can't see this for what it is,,, misuse of power and a law.
JMHO however
You mean hispanics.
I mean anyone., hispanics, Iranians, French, British,, I don't care.., if you come here illegally, I want you gone. I don't care if you are from a friendly country, unfriendly, oil rich etc. if you cross our borders illegally, I want you gone.
If you come here legally, take proper steps to set up residency (whatever they are) find a job, become a citizen when you allowed to, pay your taxes, obey our laws.,., then I got no problem with you being here.. NONE..
did I make that clear enough for you..
It's the whole, "You are against illegal immigration, therefore you are a racist who hates hispanics." excuse.
Of course, there is going to be more illegal immigrants that are hispanic. It's a lot easier for them considering they share an easy land bridge to get here from the south rather than trying to swim across an ocean(Yes, I know they can take a boat). If they were white, canadian or whatever, they should not be here.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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Legend
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A lot of prosperous countries in Europe are having major problems with immigration as well from eastern europe and the middle east, it's destroying their economies and their way of life.. What happened to good old days when a country had it better than you, you simply mobilized an army, conquered them, killed the king, and took the women? Now you sneak in, get an apartment for 14 people and bleed them to death by using their schools, hospitals and other services... it was so much cleaner the old way.
yebat' Putin
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2nd String
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You will never keep others out of our country until you make our country not worth living in for anybody.
This is the most telling comment in your whole soapbox rant.... because we are on our way there.
Heading there, but we are still a destinaton for others to get here. And instead of punishing them and deporting them when we find them, we basically slap their wrist and let me go. Heck, we even bend over backwards to help them out.
Look at L.A. when they want to stop towing and imponding illegal immigrant's cars if they are found driving without a license. They want to let them get someone with one to drive it home. However, if you ever had a license and get caught doing the same thing, they'll impound your car. So in L.A. it's better to never get a license and just drive anyways, because after all there is no real punishment to do so. Of course, they are doing this because it is a "hardship" on their family. Their family shouldn't be here to begin with and it shouldn't be easy to live here illegally. I understand that we simply cannot deport them all, but why in the world are we making it easier for them to stay here? This is sending a message to tell others to come here because there is really no punishment to do so.
I live in LA. I'm a lawyer here. You have absolutely zero idea what you are talking about.
"OH I'm a lawyer in LA! I know more than you!" Then you care to enlighten us with your "facts" and say why I am so uninformed.
Los Angeles Police Commision approves Car Impound Changes. And BTW, the unlicensed drivers in the story, normally are illegal immigrants. They ar not some teenager who hasn't got their license yet. And, the key words in this article is "Drivers who caused an accident, were previously stopped without a driver's license or who had their licenses suspended or revoked would not qualify for leniency." which basically means if you have ever got a license to begin with and follow the law in that aspect, you do not qualify. And, how are the police going to keep track on how many times a person with no legal documentation got pulled over for driving without a license? Do you really believe they will be able to maintain a database like that?
But please if I do not know what is exactly going on, then please tell me why I am so wrong instead of just claiming that I am with nothing to back it up.
I deal with the LAPD, with car impounds, and with charges for driving without a license, with a restricted license, and with a suspended license, every day. Every day. I'm in court on these issues every day. Every day. My knowledge on this subject has nothing to do with some inherent superiority LA lawyers have. I'm not going to research and quote the California Penal Code, the Department of Motor Vehicles and Los Angeles Police Department policy guidelines for you. I'm wasting enough time just typing this.
The way people are tracked who have "no legal documentation" who get arrested for driving without a license is by this amazing new techonology we call fingerprinting and photographs. You'd be amazed how accurate it is. And yes, they do maintain this database. It's pretty simple.
I'm not interested in proving anything to you. Please feel free, however, to put down the mercury news and just contact the California Department of Justice, or any practicing criminal lawyer in the city of los angeles who cares to waste some time with you.
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You should know, this guy you mention isn't the kinda illegal immigrent I want kicked out of the country.. First of all, he's not here illigally from what you say.. so don't compare apples to oranges.
I'm talking about the folk that come here in the dead of night in the back of a truck or running across the borders and then use up resources that you and I pay for.
Them, I want gone,, outta here.. No Questions Asked.
Your guy is a much different situation. I'm having a hard time believing that something/someone can't see this for what it is,,, misuse of power and a law.
JMHO however
You mean hispanics.
I mean anyone., hispanics, Iranians, French, British,, I don't care.., if you come here illegally, I want you gone. I don't care if you are from a friendly country, unfriendly, oil rich etc. if you cross our borders illegally, I want you gone.
If you come here legally, take proper steps to set up residency (whatever they are) find a job, become a citizen when you allowed to, pay your taxes, obey our laws.,., then I got no problem with you being here.. NONE..
did I make that clear enough for you..
It's the whole, "You are against illegal immigration, therefore you are a racist who hates hispanics." excuse.
Of course, there is going to be more illegal immigrants that are hispanic. It's a lot easier for them considering they share an easy land bridge to get here from the south rather than trying to swim across an ocean(Yes, I know they can take a boat). If they were white, canadian or whatever, they should not be here.
Honestly,, that's the way it felt to me when Haras made the Hispanic comment... As if I was being racist or something. When in reality, All I was being is American..
I'm all for America for Americans and America for those that truly want to be American and are willing to do it legally.. don't give a damn where they are from. Never did, never will.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
You should know, this guy you mention isn't the kinda illegal immigrent I want kicked out of the country.. First of all, he's not here illigally from what you say.. so don't compare apples to oranges.
If you are not here illegally, you can't be deported.
Quote:
I'm talking about the folk that come here in the dead of night in the back of a truck or running across the borders and then use up resources that you and I pay for.
So not hispanics. Poor people. Got it.
Quote:
Them, I want gone,, outta here.. No Questions Asked.
Your guy is a much different situation.
The situation is this. He violated immigration law. He is kicked out. No questions were asked.
Quote:
I mean anyone., hispanics, Iranians, French, British,, I don't care.., if you come here illegally, I want you gone. I don't care if you are from a friendly country, unfriendly, oil rich etc. if you cross our borders illegally, I want you gone.
If you come here legally, take proper steps to set up residency (whatever they are) find a job, become a citizen when you allowed to, pay your taxes, obey our laws.,., then I got no problem with you being here.. NONE..
did I make that clear enough for you..
As clear as it was before I read this.
You see the guy (a swede) who has demonstrated he is a good person, has a family, provides jobs, and has lived here his whole life but because he wasn't born here didn't have citizenship as different from someone (a mexican) who has demonstrated he is a good person, has a family, provides jobs, and has lived here his whole life but because he wasn't born here doesn't have citizenship.
I put a face, a white face, on the problem. You don't see each of these peoples faces, or the faces of their families, and you assume that they run over here and just suck our government resources without contributing anything. Your assumption is based on misinformation and generalization.
Who cares how they get here. they're here, they're working, they own businesses and pay taxes, they contribute to the social programs that citizens use. I know plenty of immigrants who came in the dead of night in the back of trucks who pay taxes and have never used welfare, unemployment, or medicare. They have no family in their home nation. They have been here for 20, 30, 40 years. They support their elderly parents here and don't use medicare, even when they are eligible. But yeah, sending their kids to public school is bringing down the economy.
Californians pay much more in federal taxes than we get back. So a lot of these illegals are paying for the rest of the country to get services they themselves are not even eligible for.
You see someone who could be your relative in the guy I represented who had a drug problem and was rehabilitated. It doesn't seem fair what is happening to him, because it isn't fair. The same is true for the uneducated brown person who's first language is Spanish. He just doesn't seem as familiar to you, and it's easier to kick someone who doesn't remind you of you.
Maybe you're not racist, maybe you are. I don't really care. But your position on illegal immigration lines up perfectly with racists.
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Legend
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You say you are a lawyer.. you twist my words and then you wonder why people think that 100 lawyers at the bottom of lake erie represents a good start  I'm starting to think that you are a reverse racist.. Do you really believe that I should have to pay for the costs that illegals bring to the table. is it fair that I pay that bill because they want a better life but don't want to pay the price for it by doing things right? If you think it's ok for me to pay it, or that I MUST pay it, then you and I have nothing else to discuss.., we are polar opposites..... I won't try and change your mind or influence you.. your beliefs are yours to live with... But don't accuse me of anything.. Time for you to take a long look in the mirror..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
The situation is this. He violated immigration law. He is kicked out. No questions were asked.
So the law was unambiguous, the punishment was unambiguous.... he broke the law, is now facing the punishment.. and some how that's unfair?
I get that he was brought here as a kid and didn't sneak in during the night, I get that he's not a street thug, I get it... I just find it funny that you say this...
Quote:
So not hispanics. Poor people. Got it.
Then you continue to say how this is unfair, in part because he owned a company, he has a family, etc... seems like you are saying he is more deserving of staying because he's not a poor person also...
yebat' Putin
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For a lawyer you must not be that busy because you are on a Browns message board in the middle of the day arguing about immigration, talking about Avengers movies and what the strip of land by the street is called.
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Legend
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Quote:
For a lawyer you must not be that busy because you are on a Browns message board in the middle of the day arguing about immigration, talking about Avengers movies and what the strip of land by the street is called.
I actually question if he is who he says he is,,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
A lot of prosperous countries in Europe are having major problems with immigration as well from eastern europe and the middle east, it's destroying their economies and their way of life..
What happened to good old days when a country had it better than you, you simply mobilized an army, conquered them, killed the king, and took the women? Now you sneak in, get an apartment for 14 people and bleed them to death by using their schools, hospitals and other services... it was so much cleaner the old way.
Actually in the old days when trying to take a fortified city they had trouble conquering, the attacking army would often just setup camp and keep resources from getting into the city. Then when the people were sick or weakened would begin an all out assault. War of attrition.
Maybe that's what the Hispanics are doing, using all our resources until we have nothing left to fight with. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Illegal Immigrants getting $4.1B a
year in Child Tax Credits.
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