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If anything, your numbers show that the difference between 30th and 20th, isn't all that big in terms of actual production.
Yep which means it's not a great improvement league wide. So you leaped the worst offenses in the NFL. Great accomplishment. 
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I think that going from 30th in scoring to 20th in scoring in one year is quite a solid accomplishment.
3.5 more points per game. What an accomplishment. 
It really is mind-boggling that you think that 5.7 more yards per game and 3.5 more points per game is a 'great job', a 'dramatic improvement' and 'quite a solid accomplishment'.
If the Browns offense puts up 17.1 points per game and 294.5 yards per game this season, are you going to talk about what a great job Pat Shurmur is doing?
That's not what he said,, he said they went from 30th in the league to 20th.. that's a movement of 10 places.. damn good improvement league wide.
If anything, your numbers show that the difference between 30th and 20th, isn't all that big in terms of actual production.
It's a manipulated argument.
In 2011, the Browns ranked 30th in points scored. In 2010, we ranked 31st. Using YTown's logic, I could say that the Browns improved their offense under Pat Shurmur, when they clearly didn't.
He really has nothing to back up his claims about Daboll doing a great job, so he's grasping at straws.
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Dumboll has has 3 OC jobs in 3 years. Hardly the resume of someone who franchises are banking on to construct and develop a offense.
Dumboll might be in a situation where the talent there might make him look more intelligent than he is.
The Chiefs offense was hit hard by season ending injuries to Tony Moeika(sp),Jamaal Charles.
Now this year they add,Peyton Hillis, Eric Winston, a healthy Johnathon Baldwin.
If the Chiefs have as much talent on offense as any team in the AFC.
If Dumboll can't put up 23 points a game on average with this group,he's dumber than we thought.
I have a feeling Crennel brought him in more on familarity than his body of work.
When the Chiefs hired him,the Chiefs fanbase weren't exactly thrilled with Daboll as the choice
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Gee .... I woulda thought that scoring more points than the year before, as Miami did ..... would have been seen as a good thing.
You're right though ..... scoring fewer points is much better. We were great last year! Yea us!
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Gee .... I woulda thought that scoring more points than the year before, as Miami did ..... would have been seen as a good thing.
You're right though ..... scoring fewer points is much better. We were great last year! Yea us!
This is what you're argument has devolved into? Seriously?
Why do you continue to bring this up? If I were you, I'd just hope it went away quietly. But every time, you bring up Daboll doing a great job in Miami, and say 'I know some poster will be here to say he didn't' ... and then I point out that he didn't, and you flail in the wind until your case has been so poked full of holes that you wind up where we are here, with nonsensical statements such as making it look like I said scoring more points isn't a good thing. I mean, I'm happy to do the dance, because I find it really funny, but I can't understand why you go out of your way to look so foolish.
Let me ask again -- if this season, the Browns score 17.1 points per game, and 294.5 yards per game, are you going to praise Shurmur for doing a great job and dramatically improving the offense?
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You're the one arguing that scoring more points really isn't an improvement .......  If we go from 13.6 to 17.1 points per game I won't be thrilled .... but it would be a solid improvement. However, given how awful we were last year, I would hope for more improvement than that.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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It's a manipulated argument.
That's kinda my point, all stat based arguments are manipulated by nature. Depending on how you chose to relate those numbers, you can almost undervalue or overvalue anything..
While at times it's fun, it's really nothing to get your panties in a twist over..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I would also add that the browns lost Daboll, and went from scoring 271 points in 2010 to 218 in 2011. Now they did score a couple of defensive TDs, but offensive scoring declined for the Browns, falling from 17 PPG to 13.6 PPG.
The Dolphins went from scoring 273 points in 2010 (2 more than the Browns scored that year) to scoring 329 last year. Their PPG went from 17 PPG to 20.5 PPG.
We are still just trying to catch back up to where we were 2 years ago in scoring.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You're the one arguing that scoring more points really isn't an improvement .......
No, I'm not.
I'm saying that it's not a 'dramatic improvement', nor is it a 'great job'. It's a minimal improvement and a poor job.
The guy took over a very bad offense, and didn't really improve it all that much. 3.5 points and 5.7 yards per game isn't really improvement worth touting, especially considering that the team added a 1,000 yard rusher.
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If we go from 13.6 to 17.1 points per game I won't be thrilled .... but it would be a solid improvement.
However, given how awful we were last year, I would hope for more improvement than that.
I wouldn't call it 'solid improvement', I would call it 'minimal improvement', and I hope that Shurmur would get canned. Those numbers would still have us in the basement, and climbing a rung or two wouldn't make me feel any better about still being in the basement.
And how does Daboll putting up 5.7 more YPG and 3.4 PPG constitute a 'great job', but if Shurmur were to do the exact same thing, you would be hoping for more improvement than that?
Brian Daboll didn't do a great job in Miami. He did a poor job, and was fired as a result. Why you won't admit that is beyond me, but, again, I think it's really funny, so I'm more than happy to play along.
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I would also add that the browns lost Daboll, and went from scoring 271 points in 2010 to 218 in 2011. Now they did score a couple of defensive TDs, but offensive scoring declined for the Browns, falling from 17 PPG to 13.6 PPG.
The Dolphins went from scoring 273 points in 2010 (2 more than the Browns scored that year) to scoring 329 last year. Their PPG went from 17 PPG to 20.5 PPG.
We are still just trying to catch back up to where we were 2 years ago in scoring.
And, with this "great" improvement in points scored, Miami was 6-10 last year. How's that for improvement.
You need to back off your man love of daboll.
I don't care if the Browns avg. 3 pts. a game this year, or any year. Improvement is not measured in pts scored. Improvement is measured in the Wins column. Period.
Honestly - if the Browns score 35 pts. a game, yet finish 6-10, or worse - are you going to be happy?
I won't.
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I would also add that the browns lost Daboll, and went from scoring 271 points in 2010 to 218 in 2011. Now they did score a couple of defensive TDs, but offensive scoring declined for the Browns, falling from 17 PPG to 13.6 PPG.
So we went from awful to really awful. Daboll's successor being really awful doesn't wash away the fact that Daboll was awful.
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The Dolphins went from scoring 273 points in 2010 (2 more than the Browns scored that year) to scoring 329 last year. Their PPG went from 17 PPG to 20.5 PPG.
So they went from really bad to bad ... Daboll's predecessor being really bad doesn't wash away the fact that Daboll was bad.
Once again, you're using twisted logic. Trying to tout Daboll by comparing him to Shurmur is like touting McCoy by comparing him to Brady Quinn.
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If you look at the actual numbers, we went from really awful in Crennel's final year, (232 scored) to awful after trading Edwards and Winslow, (245 and 271) to really, ungodly awful last year. (218)
The Dolphins went from 273 in 2010 to 329 scored last year. I would consider a 3+ point increase on offense to be significant.
If you look at offenses, and improvements by offenses, then the Bills would have to have been one of the biggest turnaround stories last year. They went from 283 to 372 points scored. The next biggest improvement I can find in the AFC from 2010 to 2011 was the Dolphins. If you can find a bigger improvement in scoring over that time frame in the AFC, please let me know where it was.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Honestly - if the Browns score 35 pts. a game, yet finish 6-10, or worse - are you going to be happy?
Would you rather score 13 points and finish 4-12?
The idea that wins is THE ONLY WAY to measure how well a team is doing year to year is ridiculous...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I'd certainly be beyond ecstatic with the offense if we score 35 PPG.
I would be a lot less happy with the defense though if we did and somehow managed to only go 6-10. That would take a record setting defensive collapse for the ages.
However, I truly doubt that we could score 35 PPG and go 6-10. 35 PPG is the upper end of Patriot and Green Bay territory. Only once have the Patriots hit that, and that was in 2007 when they went 16-0. (589 points scored, or 36.8 per game) The Packers hit 560 (35 PPG) last year and went 15-1.
I can't think of any other team that has ever scored that many points.
So ..... like you .... I would be extremely happy if the Browns set scoring records, even if it didn;t immediately translate into wins ..... although scoring at that level would almost certainly do so.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I don't know what poster it was, but they said something to the effect, that the Browns could go 0-16, but as long as all the games were entertaining, he'd be happy...
I'm not going to go to that extreme... However...
If we're scoring 35 points a game, i'm going to be entertained...
And seeing as no one expects us to do anything this year anyways...
It would lead to a high profile offseason, even better than going 10-6 in '07 did...
And then, according to some people all we have to do to improve on that is go 7-9!!
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Honestly - if the Browns score 35 pts. a game, yet finish 6-10, or worse - are you going to be happy?
I won't
I would and deep down I think you would as well.
No doubt wins is the final barometer, but lots of things factor in to those wins and IMO a team scoring 35 a game is going to have better long term success then a team scoring 10 points a game.
No doubt we want wins, but at the same time we need to see a jump in production in the areas that typically have a major impact on winning games.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I don't know what poster it was, but they said something to the effect, that the Browns could go 0-16, but as long as all the games were entertaining, he'd be happy...
I've read that on here also and while I understand the thinking, I wouldn't have a TV left by the mid season mark.. I"m pretty sure something would have been thrown through it by then.,. LOL
Personally, I think it's "stats be damned". I don't personally care if we score 20 or 40 points a game.. as long as we win. I don't care if my QB throws for 400 yards or 40 yards, as long as we win, I don't care if our RB runs for 10 yards or 200 yards, as long as we win.
And if the worst of those three stats occured all at once in the same game, and we still won, I'd wet my pants
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Funny how the title of this thread is "Mangini regrets outing Patriots and Bill Belichick", and someone with an agenda has to turn this into being about Colt McCoy........  This is a classic example (the title of the thread not the McCoy thing) of why no one on the Saints went against what they are in trouble for now. I mean how could you, cause if you tell, you are a snitch and will never work in the league again but if you keep quiet, you will get suspended but other coaches will still hire you. Doesn't that seem wrong to anyone else?
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It does seem wrong and it's been addressed further up the thread... my me and several other folks..
It's a catch 22 for the players but as was said, all they had to do is band together, walk into the HC office, tell him what the DC wants them to do and if he says,, DO IT or else.. then march right out to the owner, tell him and if he says,, DO IT or else,, then you go to the league. and if the league doesn't react (and I'm pretty sure that with this commish they would), your only avenue is the press.
If they wanted to do right, they could have, AS a group. But one guy alone wouldn't have stood a chance of coming out that in good shape.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I don't personally care if we score 20 or 40 points a game.. as long as we win. I don't care if my QB throws for 400 yards or 40 yards, as long as we win, I don't care if our RB runs for 10 yards or 200 yards, as long as we win.
First off all, even your low end of scoring, is 7 points more per game than we scored...
Second, I don't think anybody would mind "bad" stats if we won consistently... but what people realize is that teams with bad stats DO NOT win consistently unless they have GREAT stats somewhere else to offset them.... Right now we have a couple average to slightly above average stats (on defense) then we have a whole host of very subpar stats in all of the other categories... You don't win because you have good stats... but you do have good stats because you play well... and we haven't played well..
yebat' Putin
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Ha,, that's true about the points.. now if I'd have said 13 or 30 that would have made more sense right?  Yeah I know what you are saying DC.. I guess I was pushing the point that stats don't matter if you win. and I think that's true.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I might not be thrilled with a 6-3 victory... but I'll feel a lot happier about that than a 35-42 loss or something like that. The Browns aren't in the business of entertaining... they are in the business of winning... and currently business stinks
<><
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I might not be thrilled with a 6-3 victory... but I'll feel a lot happier about that than a 35-42 loss or something like that.
The Browns aren't in the business of entertaining... they are in the business of winning... and currently business stinks
I thought they were in the business of sadness manufacturing. They've got a nice new factory and everything.
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I might not be thrilled with a 6-3 victory... but I'll feel a lot happier about that than a 35-42 loss or something like that.
The Browns aren't in the business of entertaining... they are in the business of winning... and currently business stinks
I was at the Seattle game last year...
I would of killed for a 35-42 loss...
It FELT LIKE we lost that game...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Different opinions I guess.... yes it was a horrible game (and honestly we did lose that game without the help of the refs) but I still prefer ugly wins or pretty losses.
<><
#gmstrong
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I might not be thrilled with a 6-3 victory... but I'll feel a lot happier about that than a 35-42 loss or something like that.
The Browns aren't in the business of entertaining... they are in the business of winning... and currently business stinks
I doubt anybody on here minds an ugly win once in a while compared to a very entertaining loss.. but when ugly is the ONLY way you can win... and you ONLY do it 4 or 5 times a year, then it becomes a problem.
And keep in mind, there is a huge difference between a great defensive contest which ends 6-3... and a flat out ugly game that ends 6-3... 
yebat' Putin
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yea 6-3 because of strong defenses is MUCH better than seattle and us playing the toilet bowl last year...
i dont mind low scoring tough defensive scrums, but that game was all about which team just didn't quite perform badly enough to win.
#gmstrong
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i dont mind low scoring tough defensive scrums, but that game was all about which team just didn't quite perform badly enough to win.
Leon Washington disagrees with you...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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hmm as i recall we beat the great improved dumbol miami phins last year and i think it was some "arrogant, self centered, i am the best qb in the league, you cant deny my talent" 2nd year starter with new offense, bad line, missing your best rb. kid that led the browns on a 80 yard drive (all passes) with a td pass to get the victory for us... oh what was his name.... i think it was mccoy. yeah thats it.
Last edited by Rabid Dawgs; 05/10/12 12:39 AM.
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hmm as i recall we beat the great improved dumbol miami phins last year and i think it was some "arrogant, self centered, i am the best qb in the league, you cant deny my talent" 2nd year starter with new offense, bad line, missing your best rb. kid that led the browns on a 80 yard drive (all passes) with a td pass to get the victory for us... oh what was his name.... i think it was mccoy. yeah thats it.
Maybe we should make that guy the starter based on that one good drive against a crappy team.
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