DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Kirwan: Rookies Starters? These Teams Have a Few.

I actually think that the Browns could find a 4th rookie starter at OLB ...... and one who may not give up his job when Fujita returns from suspension.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/18957...will-have-a-few


Rookie starters for 2012? Bengals, Bucs, Jags, Browns will have a few
By Pat Kirwan | CBSSports.com NFL Insider

The draft and all the hype surrounding the selection process is finally over. The reality is about to set in for well over 300 rookies. Gone are the limos pulling up on 6th Avenue, the red carpet at Radio City has been rolled up, and now the locker room awaits the young hopefuls.

As Jim Harbaugh of the 49ers told his team the other day, "Things are about to get really real." How much impact will rookies have in 2012?

In a good year, there will be 30-35 rookie starters in Week 1. Considering the fact that there are 704 starters in the NFL -- excluding kickers and punters -- that means the Class of 2012, if all goes well, will produce 4 percent of the opening day starters. If it's a typical year, 3 percent, and a bad year, 2 percent. What if your favorite team could actually have three opening day rookie starters? That would be a heck of a draft.

After looking over the depth charts of all the teams and discussing this matter with a few coaches, I can forecast 35 rookie starters, barring preseason injuries. That's close to 5 percent, which is a very good year. And with Terrell Suggs injuring his Achilles tendon Thursday, Courtney Upshaw is on the launch pad to start now.


Right now, there are probably seven or eight teams that won't even have one rookie starter from the Class of 2012 on opening day. Those tend to be solid playoff contenders like Detroit, Houston, New Orleans, Denver or the Giants. Teams like Oakland and Tennessee also might not find the need to start a rookie in Week 1.

Are there teams that realistically could have three rookie starters? The answer is yes. If a team is already good and three rookies can crack the lineup, that makes it an extraordinary draft. One team fits that bill and three other teams are building up their rosters, and I project them to have three rookie starters, making all four drafts excellent.

I don't give draft grades out after the selection process, but I do want to recognize the teams that really helped themselves the most last weekend.

• The Browns will have Trent Richardson, Brandon Weeden and Mitchell Schwartz on the field to start the season, and they will be the foundation for a turnaround in Cleveland. Considering their circumstances, it was an excellent draft and Cleveland fans should be excited.

• The Tampa Bay Bucs had a setback in 2011 and I believe they were better than their 4-12 record, but nonetheless they need to improve. Their draft will produce three Week 1 starters: Mark Barron, Doug Martin and LaVonte David. Mark Dominic did a masterful job of selecting players with the 2012 season in mind. Half of the Tampa Bay starters will come from the past three drafts.

• Jacksonville finished 5-11 last year and came into this draft with lots of needs. They came away with three rookie starters. Justin Blackmon, Andre Branch and Brian Anger will all change the face of the 2012 Jaguars. Granted, Anger is a punter and not of the regular 22 starters, but he will have an impact on the season.

That leads me to the Cincinnati Bengals, who had the best draft in 2012 -- if the criteria is a playoff team that also drafted three 2012 opening day starters in a league where a team is lucky to find one. Playoff teams from the previous year -- minus the team I am about to mention -- will average under one rookie starter on opening day. That's what makes the Bengals' draft after a 9-7 season and a playoff spot last year the best in the league.

Dre Kirkpatrick, Kevin Zeitler and Mohammed Sanu should all crack the starting lineup. When you look back at 2011 with AJ Green and Andy Dalton, as well as 2010 with Jermaine Gresham, Carlos Dunlap and Geno Atkins, it's obvious the Bengals are putting back-to-back-to-back good drafts together. The Bengals' run on good drafts is starting to remind me just a little of the 1980s, when the Buffalo Bills drafted Bruce Smith and Andre Reed in 1985, then Jim Kelly came in 1986 followed by Cornelius Bennett in '87 and Thurman Thomas in '88.

An old mentor of mine, Ron Ney, who scouted for us at the Jets after being a personnel director for the Chargers, always said, "Put three good drafts together and you will build a championship team, but most teams just can't do it with all the changes in coaching and front office."

The Bengals don't change much at the top of the organization, and Marvin Lewis is entering his 10th season as the head coach. It sure looks like a third good draft in a row, and maybe Ron Ney was right about the formula for a championship team.

That settles it, the bungles are a super bowl contender. It's all right there in the article. Gimme a Break !

Just because these guys " start" on the bengals, doesn't mean they are any good.

Dalton and Green could have played for several teams ..... especially Green. he could have played for almost anyone.

The Bengals had a really good draft ..... as long as character concerns don't rear their ugly heads.

Good drafts, with starters emerging are the way to build a team. It is how the Bengals have built their team into a competitive team.

I still think that we should have looked into a few more free agents, but I can't really complain about Heckert's drafts.

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An old mentor of mine, Ron Ney, who scouted for us at the Jets after being a personnel director for the Chargers, always said, "Put three good drafts together and you will build a championship team, but most teams just can't do it with all the changes in coaching and front office."

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There is probably some truth to that and I think that we have put together 3 good drafts in a row, but until you have "the guy" at QB your only going so far.

Our whole Division drafts well of late, so it's important that we have 'great' drafts and not merely good ones, because we can't expect to take a step forward on the rest of our Division if we are simply staying on par with them on Draft week.

Well, let's see what we've done in 3 years time:

2010:

Haden
Ward
Hardesty
McCoy
Lauvoa
Assante
Mitchell
Geathers.

Haden, Ward, and Lauvoa are starters.

McCoy and Hardesty's futures are in question because of players drafted to take their jobs. Mitchell was a late round guy drafted on potential. He's still hanging around, so who knows?

Assante and Mitchell are gone.

2011:

Taylor
Sheard
Little
Cameron
Marecic
Skrine
Pinkston
Hagg

Tayloir, Sheard Little, and Pinkston are all starters. Marecic was a starter, but who knows?

Cameron hasn't shown much yet. Skrine looks like he has some potential. Hagg is a body. Some like him ..... I don't know if he's got anything yet or not.

So out of these 2 drafts, we will see the following guys start next year:

Haden
Ward
Lauvoa
Pinkston
Taylor
Sheard
Little

That's 7 starters out of 2 drafts. We'll probably see 3 or 4 additional starters out of next year's draft in Richardson, Weeden, and Schwartz, plus probably one of the LB, at least to start the year.

That could be 11 starters out of 3 drafts. That's pretty solid, especially given the quality of many of those players.

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Btw Mitchell is still on the team.

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Yeah ... I know ......

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Mitchell was a late round guy drafted on potential. He's still hanging around, so who knows?

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Who is the back-up center?? Greco?? The roster doesn't list one, but somebody is going to have a leg up if he can do that behind Mack.


Also....who is the long snapper now??

Greco can play Center. Lauvoa practiced some at Center as a rookie in pre-season.

Christian Yount is our long snapper. We signed him when Pontbriand imploded IIRC.

I would not be surprised if Ryan Miller took the RG job from Lavaou and Smelly became the starter at FB.
Lavaou basically was handed the RG position last year.
I would not be surprised if Massaqiou,Marecic,Lavaou,Faujita found themselves either released or losing their starting jobs in 2012.
remember when Massaqiou was working out with All-Pro WR's last offeseason?
It didn't help him a darn bit.
theres better WR's on the free agent market,yet somehow this organization still is waiting for Massaqiou to "come around"

I disagree.

I think that Massaquoi will advance this year, as will Lauvoa.

Massaquoi will almost certainly start to see some more passes down the field, which is where he is most effective. He may lose some snaps next year, yet be more effective anyway.

Last year was Lauvoa's first as a starter, and the line overall had 2 first time starters, and a part time RT. I think that he'll be much better with someone actually playing RT next to him.

Further, I would be absolutely stunned if the Browns decided that it would be a good idea to start a rookie RT and RG along with a rookie QB and RB. I see almost no chance of that happening, barring injury.

Regarding the backup center. Shugarts, the player from Ohio State is a tackle.
Garth Gerhart , Udfa from Ariona state, is the center.

Funny thing you brought up Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald. You know what the their teams did in the draft?
went out and drafted Micheal Floyd and Ryan Broyles.
You say Massaqiou isn't part of the problem. well he sure hasn't been a part of the solution.
in 3 years he has a whopping 101 catches for 1491 yds and 7 TDS.
some WR's put up those numbers in 1 year.
Massaqiou hasn't had a 100 yard game since playing the Lions his rookie year.
he's never had 2 TDS in one game.
he's never had the desire to become a elite WR.
he's never been challenged for a starting job.
and the Browns certinally didn't sign or draft anyone that really could threaten to remove Massaqiou from his starting role.
most NFL teams would have cut Massaqiou by now.
but Holmgren must enjoy mediorce production and effort.

Speaking of Calvin Johnson ..... do you know what the history of the Lions is in the draft?

They drafted Johnson #2 overall in 2007.

In 2003, they also took a WR at #2 overall. His name was Charles Rogers.

The following year, they grabbed another WR, Roy Williams, with the 7th overall pick.

In 2005 ..... you guessed it ...... they took Mike Williams with the 10th overall pick in the draft.

So they took a WR in the top 10 in 4 out of 5 drafts in a row.

Luckily for them they broke the cycle long enough to grab a QB (Stafford) in 2009. They did, however, also draft receivers in the 5th round of the 2008 draft, and the 3rd round of the 2009 draft.

They took Titus Young with their 2nd rounder last year as well. Then, of course, they added Broyles (who is recovering from an ACL IIRC) to the group.

For those playing along at home ...... since 2005 they have taken 4 WR in the 1st round ..... all top 10 selections. They took a pair of 2nd rounders .... a 3rd .... and a 5th .......

By rights, they should have the greatest WR corps of all time.

Do they?

who said anything about the Lions having the greatest WR core of all time?
I didn't.
my point being even the Lions have arguably one of the better WR cores in the NFL,they still went out and added a WR that was super productive in college.
the Lions went out and added yet another weapon.
what did the Browns do.....add the Hurricanes 2nd WR from last year.
The Browns for some reason are content with average WR's other than Greg Little.
Jacoby Jones is out there.
No intrest..Jabar Gaffney..likewise...
Jerome Simpson...nada...
Travis Benjamin is not what I would consider a upgrade..more like a lateral movement.

If anything, that shows they can accept when they made a mistake and try to rectify it. Instead of stopping drafting receivers, they kept going until they got one. Now they have probably the best receiver in the league and a potential HOFer. I wouldn't mind it if the Browns swung high for once and kept at it until we got a stud at a premier position (QB/RB/WR) instead of waiting around until Day 2 of the draft to get those guys while drafting Centers in the 1st round (we did that twice).

Hopefully Weeden and Richardson are the answer but if we deem they are not then I hope we follow Detroit's example and keep plugging away until we do find the answer.

However, they have thrown receiver on top of receiver on top of receiver over the past decade.

Maybe there's a better way top go about it than to follow their example.

Hell, the *gag* Steelers found 1000 yard starters in the 3rd and 6th rounds of consecutive drafts. Maybe our 4th round pick works out. Why not? Do we "have to" use high draft picks on receivers?

I think our FO believes that WRs are a luxury item to have after they build the team. If there is a WR that is worth the selection, then take him, but never reach for a WR seems to be the plan.

Philly and NE did control the NFC/AFC respectively at the beginning of the century without a name WR between them (until Philly eventually got TO - then DeSean/Maclin and NE eventually got Randy/Wes)

I was just talking about premier positions (QB, DE, WR,etc.) Somebody that when you draft them right is a completely game changing guy.

Perhaps I worded it badly but my main point was ideally you want to get it right on the first try with a position, however if you do not get it right and you think the guy on the board is the best available talent (i.e. the Lions with all the receivers) then I hope we're not afraid to pull the gun just because we made a mistake before (i.e. people not wanting to draft a QB high because Couch or Quinn did not work out).

Obviously you can find gems in the later rounds but the odds decrease as you get deeper into the rounds.

Jacoby Jones is the reason the Texans drafted 2 WRs...their fans lament having no real no2 WR opposite AJohnson for years now

and I believe we will have some fun with Benjamin

If you draft a rookie QB in RD 1 and plan on starting him..then you better darn well upgrade your WR core that exists by either FA or taking a WR in college that dominated.
the Redskins went out and got Morgan/Garcon for RG3
the Colts drafted Fleener..super smart move
I know the Browns signed Josh Cooper,but Blackmon he is not. Cooper benefited from Blackmon.
the Browns are yet again using another excuse on why their WR's have failed to produce.

when was the last time the Browns had a WR they drafted from RD 2 and on that amounted to anything?
maybe Kevin Johnson.
the Browns right now don't one WR that defenses have to really fear.

I agree .... to a point.

I just think that if you take a position 2 years in a row at the top of the draft, then you probably should look at a different position in that 3rd draft in a row. In a best case scenario, you are drafting 2 starters and a backup if you do this. Plus, how can any team know what they have in a 1st rounder if they keep drafting replacements high in the draft.

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Jacoby Jones is the reason the Texans drafted 2 WRs...their fans lament having no real no2 WR opposite AJohnson for years now

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Well spoken. I don't understand how Jacoby Jones would help our WR core. Greg Little had better production than Jones and he didn't line up with Andre Johnson, Arian Foster, or Ben Tate.

Greg Little had better production simply because he was targeted more often than Jones.
Plus the Texans bread and butter on offense is gashing you with the run.
Hand it off to Foster and Tate.
then they came back with play action to their TE's Daniels and Dressen and sometimes James Casey.
after Andre Johnson went down,the Texans adjusted their gameplan.
and when Schaub went down,they really amped up the running game.
what do I like about Jones.....in 2 of his 3 years he's averaged better than 16 yards a catch.
funny how Jones is good enough to get a serious look from a playoff team,but not from a team who continully finishes in last.

I remember when we were drafting these positions high in the draft, and everyone was screaming about building through the trenches first...

We can only pick so many guys a year. I bet if Weeden and TR workout this year we'll be picking a early WR next year.

If we pick up Jones i'm going to shoot someone... I've had to spend the last 4 years watching him not live up to his potential... kid has some amazing speed and energy... but he can't keep his focus to save his life... too many stupid mistakes at the worst times... and I'm not one to say someone takes plays off, but there were times when I'd just scratch my head trying to figure out what the heck he was doing during a play...

It was time for the Texans to move on... and unless we're looking for a new punt returner I don't want Jones.

Texans should have gotten rid of him years ago.

I'd also like to see a guy like Haden get a chance in the open field...

Not that I WANT to risk hurting one of our best Defensive players...

I just think his skill set translates well to the PR game...

Isn't Benjamin a Track guy?

Does straight line speed translate to a good PR?

Kid's got some lateral speed as well


Edit: Posted wrong video

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If anything, that shows they can accept when they made a mistake and try to rectify it. Instead of stopping drafting receivers, they kept going until they got one.

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That's one way to look at it.. the other way is that they were too blind to realize that Joey Harrington was the problem and in 2005 they could have taken Aaron Rodgers instead of their 3rd consecutive WR....

He has the speed, but when is the last time Cribbs has seen holes that big on a punt return?