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Unfortunately, this debate isn't about human rights or equality. Because gays already have the same rights as the rest of us. Laws were passed in 2009 that require hospitals, insurance companies and other municipalities to recognize same sex partnerships in the same exact way they recognize traditional partnerships. If you are a gay person in the hospital, the power is now in your hands to authorize anybody you want to make critical life decisions and enjoy visitation. The same applies to the tax code. Gays can now file jointly and list dependents according to the same criteria as hetero couples. So the human rights aspect of this discussion was solved a long time ago. Like I said, this isn't about equality anymore, it's about acceptance. And unfortunately, it doesn't seem like the gay community will be satisfied until we not only accept them, but celebrate their choice. And that is where I start to have a problem with their agenda being jammed down my throat.
You may want to do a little research for some of what you pass of as fact in this paragraph, because some of it is not accurate, such as insurance and taxes.
It's funny when people don't agree with something how they make the group that does want it out to be "shoving their beliefs down their throat" or "having an agenda". It's extremely hypocritical.
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What the hell would you know about it? 
yebat' Putin
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Yes, I realize it's silly for me to chime in on the topic. All you He-Men who know so much about it and are so affected by it are doing a wonderful job. 
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If the people of that state have voted then that state has made their choice. Everyone has a vote. Not everyone will be happy with the end result, but the choice is made.
Majority rule only works if you're also considering individual rights. Because you can't have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper.
Larry Flynt
As a state question on a ballot it's majority rule. Whether it works or not is for the individual to decide.
#GMSTRONG
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Sorry I hurt your feelings. Please accept this green banana as a peace offering. 
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Oh geez what was you name when you were here before?
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Legend
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As a state question on a ballot it's majority rule. Whether it works or not is for the individual to decide.
That's in no way true or accurate. If a court decides it's an infringement on a persons civil rights the vote doesn't count.
According to your theory, a state could vote for seperate bathrooms for blacks and it would become law. This is not the case at all.
Hopefully very soon, courts will see this for what it is. Simple and basic discrimination against people who are not the same as the majority. If and when that happens, your theory will be tossed out the window.
discrimination is illegal, no matter how people try to vote to make it legal. Thus the Larry Flynt quote....
Majority rule only works if you're also considering individual rights. Because you can't have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper.
Larry Flynt
As much as you may think it's so, majority rule is not the be all, end all of everything.......
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Sorry I hurt your feelings. Please accept this green banana as a peace offering.
Actually it would appear she called you out, not got her feelings hurt. If you knew her you would realise it will take a lot more than that! She's not as thin skineed as you think she is and you don't appear to be nearly as clever as you think you are.....
LMAO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Okay, you get two bananas.. If I hurt anybody else's feelings, you better come quick. There were only four bananas in the bundle and they won't be green for long....
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Banannas are good and rich in potassium. Thank you!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Okay, you get two bananas..
If I hurt anybody else's feelings, you better come quick. There were only four bananas in the bundle and they won't be green for long....
LOL I don't think you hurt anyones feelings, but Jules seemed to be pointing out flaws in your interpretation of fact.
I have no idea which one of you is correct. Do some research, check your facts if your so inclined, and inform us of what you find.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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LOL I don't think you hurt anyones feelings, but Jules seemed to be pointing out flaws in your interpretation of fact.
I have no idea which one of you is correct. Do some research, check your facts if your so inclined, and inform us of what you find.
This topic was raised yesterday, or day before in the "Things I hate" thread, and one poster (I believe it was Buckeyed, but don't quote me on that) asked me to prove that television was filled with homosexual themes. I spent about 15 minutes of my time finding links to studies that proved my point, and about a minute after I posted it, it was deleted...
Knowing that this is how things work around here, I'm not wasting my time proving anything to anybody. I don't know if it was the links to outside resources that got the post flagged, or maybe the moderators are gay and they just find the whole topic offensive...? I simply don't know. And honestly, I just don't care. This is a Browns forum, I came here for football discussion and then made the mistake of posting in a non-football thread. I won't make that mistake again. After seeing how certain posters respond to things here, I've come to the conclusion (in only a few short days) that this is the kind of place you need to keep it light, stick to only the football threads, and tread lightly because the moderation is apparently a little over the top.
If I do post in a non-football thread again, it will probably be a one-liner or something humorous. I'm not here to ruffle any panties. I've been here three days and Ive already been accused of being a former poster who is back under a new identity. It's funny, I've been posting on forums for a long time, and one thing you can always count on when you are a newb and you . somebody off, is that they'll accuse you of being some former -now banned- member that is back under a new identity. If any of the mods are reading this, please feel free to release my IP address information, and verify the fact that I'm not some troll... You have my permission. I really don't care. You'll find this is my first stint in this community.
As far as my claims in this thread, anybody can go check them out on Google. Equal hman rights has been achieved. It's not about rights, it's about acceptance. And to be honest, even if this poster could provide some example of how my facts are wrong, it doesn't change my opinion that altering the Constitution or creating legislation is not the solution. If there are still glitches in the tax system, then pass legislation to fix those glitches. You can create legislation to attain equal rights without inserting anything about sex or marriage into our government or our Constitution. That's my opinion. If she doesn't like it, guess what, she doesn't have to agree... simple as that.
This is the last thing I'll say on this topic. like I said, this is a place for football talk. If the creators of this website want to provide a place to talk about religion and politics, that's their prerogative... but I've learned my lesson. There appears to be far too many "left-thinking" personalities here for my liking. So I'll stick to the Ron Paul forums for my political fix.
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The only person getting their panties ruffled is you. I merely posted that what you stated as facts are not accurate. I didn't respond in a way that was in any way indicative of someone who was in the least bit "hurt" or "upset". You are the only one acting in that fashion on this thread. I'm not sure what about my comment got that sort of response, but you appear to be looking for someone to treat you in a certain way and are responding as if they did when they didn't.
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The only person getting their panties ruffled is you.
Please provide an example...
I apologized for hurting your feelings and then told Damanshot why I will now choose to refrain from this discussion. So what are you talking about?
My suggestion, move on. There's nothing to see here. I've already formed my opinion of you, you've already formed yours of me. So what's really left to debate? Whose panties are in a twist? really? Grow up.
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yeah, grow up, leftist! 
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The same applies to the tax code. Gays can now file jointly and list dependents according to the same criteria as hetero couples. So the human rights aspect of this discussion was solved a long time ago.
Can gay and lesbian couples file joint federal taxes?
The Defense of Marriage Act, signed into law in 1996, defines marriage as between one man and one woman, prohibiting federal recognition of same-sex couples. And since only married couples can file joint federal tax returns, all gay and lesbian couples (including same-sex spouses in Massachusetts) must file federal taxes as individuals.
http://taxtime.about.com/od/tipstricks/a/taxfilingjoint.htm
You are also incorrect about health insurance, although some companies do offer it, certainly not all. As far as the visitation and medical decision making in a hospital I've seen a number of cases where the family intervenes when paperwork is not completed ahead of time and since the two people are not married the next of kin wins out.
So, everything you typed in that entire paragraph was pretty much just something you made up. That's why I said what I did. But yeah, everybody is picking on you.
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yeah, grow up, leftist!
That's me! 
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There appears to be far too many "left-thinking" personalities here for my liking.
Yeah, it's pretty much like Burning Man around here.
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or maybe the moderators are gay and they just find the whole topic offensive...?
Yeah, that was probably it.
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I spent about 15 minutes of my time finding links to studies that proved my point, and about a minute after I posted it, it was deleted...
I'm not sure of that discussion,, didn't see it and I didn't see your response so I'm not sure what links you posted.
There are some rules around here about certain types of sites not being allowed and the reasons for each seem fair so far. (I still question the twitter thing if it's a verified tweeter but that's no biggie)
Your links may have been against one of the rules.. did you by chance take a moment to go over them? Just wondering.
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Knowing that this is how things work around here, I'm not wasting my time proving anything to anybody.
for the most part, you don't have to prove anything you say.. I mean, if you don't when someone questions it, then that's fine. Last I Checked, nobody puts a gun to anyone elses head to prove a point.
that's why I said, if you have a mind to show some verification,, go for it. But no biggie if you don't want to.
But please, don't blame it on the site. this place runs essentially free for us. One man on here carries the weight on his shoulders financially for the most part.
And from what I know, the mods work totally free. While I may not always agree with thier decisions, I respect the work they do.. it ain't easy..
You've been a member here a very short time,, what you say you experienced in the other thread is actually rare. so I'm guessing the links you posted had something in them that isn't allowed.
LOL,, I once posted a link to a video that was truly funny,, But there were some Swear words in it and it was deleted. I guess I was laughing so hard at it, that I didn't even notice the cussing..LOL
And,, here's the thing. if you have an issue with a decision, there is a forum for that on there.. Ask about it.., you'll get your answer..
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This is a Browns forum, I came here for football discussion and then made the mistake of posting in a non-football thread. I won't make that mistake again
sorry you feel that way.. but I understand it. I don't post in the gaming threads or anything to do with Fantasy football.. don't care for any of that. I think I've posted in the Smack Shack 3 or 4 times in the entire time I've been on this board.. mostly cause I'm not all that good with smack and for the most part, I don't care for it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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maybe the moderators are gay and they just find the whole topic offensive
Or, maybe the moderators are offensive and they just find the whole topic gay?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Yeah, it's pretty much like Burning Man around here.
I heard Bob Dylan is stopping by next week.
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I spent about 15 minutes of my time finding links to studies that proved my point, and about a minute after I posted it, it was deleted...
Or, perhaps, there were a number of posts from that thread which were deleted because they were all in reply to one post that was against board rules. Example: Someone calls another poster an assho|e (clearly forbidden as name calling is a no-no) and then a bunch of people start clicking "Reply" from that or reply to the replies. When that first post is deleted, all those replies go bye-bye too.
Or, it could be as Damanshot said: Your links were to sites that aren't permitted here (personal blogs, websites that are profane, twitter, other message boards posts etc)
![[Linked Image from i75.photobucket.com]](http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i302/lrhinkle/d5eaf0b9-e429-4211-b53f-b843bfcf6aa9_zps2ac17420.jpg) #gmstrong
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The same applies to the tax code. Gays can now file jointly and list dependents according to the same criteria as hetero couples. So the human rights aspect of this discussion was solved a long time ago.
Can gay and lesbian couples file joint federal taxes?
The Defense of Marriage Act, signed into law in 1996, defines marriage as between one man and one woman, prohibiting federal recognition of same-sex couples. And since only married couples can file joint federal tax returns, all gay and lesbian couples (including same-sex spouses in Massachusetts) must file federal taxes as individuals.
http://taxtime.about.com/od/tipstricks/a/taxfilingjoint.htm
You are also incorrect about health insurance, although some companies do offer it, certainly not all. As far as the visitation and medical decision making in a hospital I've seen a number of cases where the family intervenes when paperwork is not completed ahead of time and since the two people are not married the next of kin wins out.
So, everything you typed in that entire paragraph was pretty much just something you made up. That's why I said what I did. But yeah, everybody is picking on you.
As someone who worked with gay couples and hospital visitation rights, Jules is absolutely correct (as expected). Hospitals do not have to acknowledge the gay couple as family if they do not want to. Even in life-threatening situations, spouses can be prohibited from visiting or even getting any information regarding their spouse's state. I've seen the injustices hands-on and anyone who thinks that gays "have achieved equal human rights" has absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
![[Linked Image from i190.photobucket.com]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z33/booger52/phpGGRdhwAM.jpg)
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And I think that a large part of the reason we have seen so many defense of marriage acts. People don't want to change what marriage is. Many people would support civil unions, but there is never a middle ground. It's "give us gay marriage" and people refuse to change marriage to include gay couples.
I was against the Ohio Amendment that banned gay marriage, because it also banned any approximation of marriage, or benefits of marriage to any couple other than a legally married man/woman couple. It was bad legislation, but people did not want to have marriage include gay couples, so bad law passed.
This is the problem. If gay activists would say "Look, we understand that marriage has a religious connotation for many people, and we want to respect their beliefs. We want to be able to be joined in the same manner with partners of our choice in the same way, and to enjoy the same privileges, responsibilities and rights as married couples through a legal, civil union. We aren't asking for anyone to do anything except to respect our civil, legal rights, not to require any religion to approve of such if they feel that it is against their beliefs."
If gay rights activists would have come out with a position like that, then I bet that they would have legal civil unions in some of the states where they, instead, have bans on gay marriage. (or any approximation, which includes civil unions)
I think that the whole issue was horribly mismanaged.It seemed to me like gay rights activists wanted to try somehow to not only get gay marriage legalized, but also to have people accept them as moral, even when their religion would specifically forbid such acceptance.
Because of this refusal to accept a position that would allow for an equivalent of marriage, gay activists have energized people to vote against all of it, civil unions at all. It was a horrible miscalculation.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Are we forcing the Jewish faith to deem eating pork as moral? Are we forcing Muslims to deem drinking alcohol as moral? Are we forcing mormons to deem drinking caffine as moral?
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The difference is that we are not changing what Pork, Drinking, or Caffeine are.
This would be changing what marriage is, and has always been.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You can call things whatever you want, but if people have specific beliefs, then trying to change the names of things won't change their beliefs. Pork is still pork, even if you try to call it beef, or blue, or zebra, or toe, or some made up word like goobdagata. It's still the same thing, through and through, as it was before. A Jewish person is not going to eat it. Trying to serve it to someone by changing the name is lying .... nothing more, nothing less.
It also works in reverse. You cannot make beef into pork just by saying that it is.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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This is the problem. If gay activists would say "Look, we understand that marriage has a religious connotation for many people, and we want to respect their beliefs. We want to be able to be joined in the same manner with partners of our choice in the same way, and to enjoy the same privileges, responsibilities and rights as married couples through a legal, civil union. We aren't asking for anyone to do anything except to respect our civil, legal rights, not to require any religion to approve of such if they feel that it is against their beliefs."
And why should one group's beliefs trump anothers? Especially when said belief system is arbitrary and illogical?
I mean, it's an attempt not to offend a belief system that puts homosexuality as a sin on par with getting tattoos and shaving, a belief system that calls for adultery, homosexuality and wizards to be stoned to death. This is the belief system that we should tip-toe around? 
Religious beliefs should in no way help to determine law. A church should be free to not recognize or perform whatever marriages it chooses, and that should be the extent of their influence.
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Because of this refusal to accept a position that would allow for an equivalent of marriage, gay activists have energized people to vote against all of it, civil unions at all. It was a horrible miscalculation.
First of all, it's not a 'horrible miscalculation' to demand equal rights. Secondly, they're eventually going to get what they're asking for, probably within the next twenty years or so.
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This would be changing what marriage is, and has always been.
You mean like we've been doing for centuries?
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And I think that a large part of the reason we have seen so many defense of marriage acts. People don't want to change what marriage is. Many people would support civil unions, but there is never a middle ground. It's "give us gay marriage" and people refuse to change marriage to include gay couples.
There is a dfference in "changing mairrage" and "openning up mairrage to others of different beliefs and lifestyles".
You see, to me, mairrage wouldn't change. I'm not gay, so in my life, mairrage would be the same. To the entire non-gay community, mairrage would be exactly the same. Two people of the opposite sex having a mairrage union. It would not change our life, nor what mairrage is to us nor how we conduct mairrage in our own life.
It does not intrude on our life in any way. It does not effect our households nor our belief system. It does "not change" mairrage in your life or mine.
What a ban on gay mairrage does, is inflict our belief system upon others. It makes it impossible for those who live and believe differently than ourselves equal rights to have the same oppertunities simply because their lifestyle does not conform to what we believe, or at least some believe to be moral.
Nothing more and nothing less IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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In other words, you are basically saying it's not going to change the way you live your life and you don't really care how others live thiers..  100% agree with ya
Last edited by Damanshot; 05/24/12 01:11 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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it makes no difference to me at all. Now if we want to talk abortion
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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it makes no difference to me at all. Now if we want to talk abortion
talk about ringing a bell.. abortion is a toughy for me. honestly, I'm as confused by that as anything on earth. I honestly don't know how I feel about it.
but gay/lesbian marriage? I got no problem with it. none.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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But for many people there is a HUGE difference between changing marriage and "opening" it up to others.
That is why there have been so many defense of marriage type acts and such. That's why there are so many bad pieces of legislation floating around. Whether you agree personally or not, most people do not want to change what marriage means at its core. That is why it is rejected almost everywhere there is a vote of the people. (even in liberal California)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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But for many people there is a HUGE difference between changing marriage and "opening" it up to others.
That is why there have been so many defense of marriage type acts and such. That's why there are so many bad pieces of legislation floating around. Whether you agree personally or not, most people do not want to change what marriage means at its core. That is why it is rejected almost everywhere there is a vote of the people. (even in liberal California)
But, are they really changing marriage by allowing same sex to get married? I mean, I know that if you look up the defination of marriage, it talks about a man and a woman. But what it's really talking about is a union of two people.
So, marriage is marriage,, doesn't really seem to matter what genders are involved..
maybe I think this way because I don't really see anything wrong with it in general so therefore it doesn't matter to me.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,993 Likes: 364 |
See, you are changing it in your own statement there.
"I know that it says .... but we want to change it because we think it really means this other thing" ......
That's not how most people look at marriage. (at least going by election results) People look at marriage as a man and a woman, leaving their families and joining together to create a new family.
I'm not married, and I have no kids, so the longer I am on this Earth, the less I really give a damn what people want to do. I think that this country is heading down the toilet for a lot of reasons, such as people are lazy, they want everything today but don't want to work for it, and many other similar reasons. Gay marriage really isn't something that keeps me up at night. However, I can see why people want to defend traditions and institutions that have meaning in their lives. They want to defend them for their children and grandchildren. They want to pass on a particular legacy and traditions, and don't want to see traditions changed and altered because of political considerations.
In my opinion, there is no reason why a gay couple cannot have a secular, legal, civil union. However, the fight has been for gay couples to be allowed to "marry". This has been a losing fight almost everywhere it has been contested, and gay couples lose the right to civil unions as a result as well in many cases. (like is the poorly worded Ohio Amendment) I would bet that gay couples could have secular civil unions, with all of the rights and responsibilities of marriage, if they had gone that route. Instead many gay leaders seemed to want to almost rub peoples' noses in the fact that they were going to be a gay "married" couple, and it backfired badly in most cases and states. A secular civil union that would allow for gay couples, as well as those who do not believe in any religion would have been a very appropriate way to get the ball rolling. Instead they became confrontational, and really ticked off a lot of voters. (Republicans and Democrats alike, especially Black and Hispanic voters)
I do find it interesting and appalling that so many fight for the institution of marriage while having children out of wedlock with multiple partners. I find it especially interesting that it happens so often in the Black community, where marriage is on such a decline, yet Black voters overwhelmingly oppose gay marriage initiatives.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,164 Likes: 134 |
Well, Yeah. I changed it. Because it's probably inaccurate to say that marriage is a union between man and woman today.
In fact, I don't think there is any probably about.
Bottom line, I just don't see the reason for the hubbub.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,993 Likes: 364
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,993 Likes: 364 |
You don't. Obviously many other people do.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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