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I think this is another example of when you decide something, and then skew logic to meet up with your opinion.
The progress the gay rights movement has made in the last eight or so years has been staggering. Public opinion continues to sway towards gay marriage every year, and the jump is only going to increase as the youth population - who by and large have no problem with it - get older.
The tides have been turning on this one for awhile. More and more people are getting past their bigotry. It's going to be legal in the next few decades.
And quite frankly ... it baffles me to know end to hear people who constantly preach that the government should stay out of people's lives is in favor of the government - be it state or federal - suddenly are in favor of the government legislating who you can marry. It completely differs from conservative ideology, and the only reason the view is held is because a holy text has a few passages forbidding it. A holy text, mind you that is filled with all sorts of other absurd decrees that said followers have no problem ignoring.
And not to mention ... why is everyone always talking about how gay marriage is always rubbed in their face? Do you have to rent a tux and make a toast at the wedding?
Unless someone is forcing your congregation to perform gay marriages, you're pretty much free to avoid and/or ignore it.
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You say that public opinion swings towards it, yet it continues to be voted down by sizable majorities almost everywhere there is a public vote.
Which state has had the largest public vote in favor of gay marriage?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You say that public opinion swings towards it, yet it continues to be voted down by sizable majorities almost everywhere there is a public vote.
Which state has had the largest public vote in favor of gay marriage?
You're missing the forest for the trees.
That majority is rapidly shrinking. Every single day, more and more people are coming to realize their bigotry. I've seen it in my own family, amongst friends, and almost every statistical measure you can find shows that support for gay marriage is increasing at a steady rate.
Couple that increase in support with the fact that those opposed are predominantly older, and those in support are predominantly younger ... and in a few decades or less, you'll see gay marriage legalized, as it should be.
There are many issues I worry over ... gay rights isn't one of them. There's a ways to go, but the wheels are in motion.
The dinosaurs are going to get left in the dust on this one.
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I don't see a huge swing going on.
The most opposed demographics to gay marriage are the Black and Hispanic communities. These are the 2 fastest growing segments of the population as well.
We'll see what happens down the road.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I don't see a huge swing going on.
That's because you only see what you want to see.
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No, that's because I see election results, and growth pattern in the 2 groups traditionally most opposed to gay marriage. (Black and Hispanic populations)
The White voter has been the strongest proponent of gay marriage, and they are a shrinking segment of our population. Explain to me how that means that gay marriage has a better chance of becoming law in the future. Unless there is a radical change in the outlook of these 2 communities towards the matter of gay marriage, it will be a very long time before gay couples will be able to marry in any state in the US.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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There's growing support in the African American community after Obama went public about it.
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For now.
No one has voted since then ..... and Obama was afraid to come out with his new position prior to the NC election.
We'll see what happens when it's no longer fresh in anyone's head, especially if Obama loses the upcoming Presidential election.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Strong public support for same-sex marriage exceeds strong opposition by a significant margin for the first time in ABC News/Washington Post polls, and African-Americans have moved more in favor, perhaps taking their lead from Barack Obama on the issue. Overall, 53 percent of Americans say gay marriage should be legal, steady the past year but up from 36 percent in just 2006. Thirty-nine percent “strongly” support it, while 32 percent are strongly opposed – the first time strong sentiment has tilted positive. Six years ago, by contrast, strong views on the issue were negative by a broad 27-point margin.See PDF with full results here. Further, this poll, produced for ABC by Langer Research Associates, finds that support for gay marriage has reached a new high among African-Americans in ABC/Post polls, up from four in 10 in recent surveys to 59 percent now. Another result shows increasing exposure: Seventy-one percent of Americans now say they have a friend, family member or acquaintance who’s gay, up from 59 percent in 1998. People who know someone who’s gay are 20 points more likely than others to support gay marriage. Regardless of that shift, Obama’s May 9 announcement of his support for gay marriage shows no measurable impact on political preferences. While more support than oppose his position, 51-41 percent, Americans divide on whether it’s a political plus or minus, with most saying it’s not a major factor in their vote choice. SUPPORT – Support for gay marriage reached a majority for the first time in an ABC/Post poll in March 2011 and has held there since, at 51 to 53 percent. Strong support has been essentially at parity with strong opposition across that time, a shift from previous years. In this poll, though, strong opposition to gay marriage is at a new low in polls since 2004, while strong support is at a numerical high, producing a 7-point positive gap. Notably among groups, 59 percent of African-Americans in this survey express support for gay marriage – up from 41 percent in combined ABC/Post polls this spring and last summer. Likewise, 65 percent support Obama’s new position on the issue. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People announced its support for gay marriage last weekend. Fewer whites, 46 percent, approve of Obama’s announcement, and 50 percent support gay marriage – numerically (albeit not statistically significantly) the fewest since 2010. VOTE and GROUPS – While 20 percent see the issue as a major reason to support Obama, about as many, 23 percent, call it a major reason to oppose him, both among groups that look likely to have supported or opposed him anyway. Fifty-five percent say it’s not a major factor. Even among those who approve of the president’s support for the issue, nearly six in 10 say it’s not an important factor in their vote; 38 percent call it a major reason to support him. More of those who disapprove of his position, half, call it a major reason to oppose him in the election. Sharp differences among groups persist. Republicans and conservatives oppose gay marriage by more than 2-1, evangelical white Protestants by more than 3-1. While Democrats support it by more than 2-1, the balance is tipped, as is often the case, by independents: Fifty-eight percent support legalizing gay marriage; 43 percent do so strongly. Among other groups, support for gay marriage reaches 69 percent among adults under age 30 (with 51 percent “strong” support), compared with just 38 percent of seniors. (Half of seniors are strongly opposed). Support is also 14 points higher among college graduates than among non-graduates, 63 to 49 percent. But it’s the same, 53 percent, among men and women alike. FRIEND/FAMILY – As noted, seven in 10 Americans report having a friend, family member or acquaintance who is gay or lesbian. They’re much more apt to support gay marriage (59 percent, vs. 39 percent of those who don’t know someone who is gay) and also to approve of the president’s position on the issue (56 percent, vs. 39 percent of others). As with support for gay marriage, knowing someone who’s gay is notably high among young adults and people with college degrees, 80 percent in each group. It’s higher among women than men, 76 vs. 66 percent. Broad majorities of Democrats, Republicans and independents (65, 71 and 76 percent, respectively) also report having a friend, family member or acquaintance who is gay. It’s 56 percent each, by contrast, among blacks and seniors. STATE vs. FED – Obama said he supports gay marriage personally but believes the states should decide on its legality; on that the public splits about evenly, with 49 percent favoring state control vs. 46 percent who’d prefer to have the federal government make the rules. Support for federal legislation is higher (57 percent) among proponents of gay marriage; among those who oppose gay marriage, the same share, 57 percent, prefer state rule. Thirty states have constitutionally banned gay marriage; eight (plus Washington, D.C.) have legalized it (including two in which those laws are yet to take effect). Political divisions follow, with Republicans 23 points more apt to back state rather than federal rule, Democrats 14 points more likely to favor a single federal law – and independents roughly divided, 50-45 percent, state-federal. METHODOLOGY – This ABC News/Washington Post poll was conducted by telephone May 17-20, 2012, among a random national sample of 1,004 adults, including landline and cell-phone-only respondents. Results have a margin of sampling error of 3.5 points for the full sample. The survey was produced for ABC News by Langer Research Associates of New York, N.Y., with sampling, data collection and tabulation by Abt-SRBI of New York, N.Y. link Here's the actual poll.As my generation gets older and starts having children and the older generation passes away, support for gay marriage will become overwhelming. The times they are a-changing. Gay marriage will be legal soon, there's no way around it. Too many young people support it and the only demographic that truly is dead-set against it are the elderly. It's a cultural shift that the older generation just can't wrap their head around for some reason.
![[Linked Image from i190.photobucket.com]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z33/booger52/phpGGRdhwAM.jpg)
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Like I said ..... that "majority" obviously doesn't vote ..... because gay marriage loses almost every public vote by a fairly substantial margin.
I've also found it interesting that a polling company can access the mood of the country by calling 1000 people ..... which is about 20 per state.
Further, likely voters is really about the only poll that ever matters in any poll material, because people who don't vote, don't matter.
I doubt that gay marriage is going to get someone who rarely or never votes to get out and vote, unless they someone close to them who is directly impacted.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Like I said ..... that "majority" obviously doesn't vote ..... because gay marriage loses almost every public vote by a fairly substantial margin.
Except for the fact it's legal in (soon to be) 8 states.
You're completely missing the big picture. Even with that majority not voting yet , gay marriage has gone from a mental disease to being legal in several states over the course of 40 years. As the younger generation gets older - which by and large has absolutely no issue with gay marriage - do you really think these old bigotries will stand? Sooner or later, there will be a federal bill passed. I don't know how old you are, but I have no doubt it will happen in my lifetime (I'm 22) and I would be willing to bet it happens within 10-15 years when my generation gets to the age where they actually begin voting
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Like I said ..... that "majority" obviously doesn't vote ..... because gay marriage loses almost every public vote by a fairly substantial margin.
Not only are you ignoring a multitude of facts to cling to one point, your point isn't even really valid.
In the last fifteen state votes on legalizing gay marriage, six voted yes. Of those voting 'no', half were California and New York, retrying after their previous attempts to ban gay marriage were deemed unconstitutional. New York later legalized gay marriage.
Votes aren't even important any more ... the courts are.
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Quote:
You say that public opinion swings towards it, yet it continues to be voted down by sizable majorities almost everywhere there is a public vote.
Which state has had the largest public vote in favor of gay marriage?
I don't know the stats, but 15 years ago, how many states allowed gay marriage? Any?
today it's what, 4 or 5 I think..
I don't think there is any question that it's the direction we're heading as a nation.. Might take 25 or more years for it to be legal in every state.. but it's gonna happen...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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6 states and D.C.
3 other states recognize but don't allow.
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Quote:
6 states and D.C.
3 other states recognize but don't allow.
It was just a guess but I was close.
Point is, 15 years ago, did any state allow or even recognize it? I think not..
So it took 15 years to get 6 states to allow it,, like I said, it won't be allowed in every state in my lifetime, but I'm pretty sure it will come to pass..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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My army buddy from taxes said and I quote "I think Texas will Secede before they Legalize Gay Marriage."
I found it funny.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Everything is bigger in Texas... especially the bravado.
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Quote:
Point is, 15 years ago, did any state allow or even recognize it? I think not..
So it took 15 years to get 6 states to allow it,, like I said, it won't be allowed in every state in my lifetime, but I'm pretty sure it will come to pass..
How long did it take to get a bunch of states to create constitutional amendmends against it?
I look for it to be a very hotly contested issue for quite a while with both sides digging their heels in....
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Quote:
Point is, 15 years ago, did any state allow or even recognize it? I think not..
So it took 15 years to get 6 states to allow it,, like I said, it won't be allowed in every state in my lifetime, but I'm pretty sure it will come to pass..
How long did it take to get a bunch of states to create constitutional amendmends against it?
I look for it to be a very hotly contested issue for quite a while with both sides digging their heels in....
I do as well,, but in the end, and again, probably not in my lifetime, you will see it legalized everywhere.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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J/c....
Why is it okay for any of us to vote on personal freedoms of others? Why is it okay for us to vote on things that DO NOT AFFECT US one little tiny bit?
People seem to vote based on their morals when I believe we should always vote for freedom. (Yes, there is still issue of defining both morals and freedom.) Voting on the personal lives of a group of people just seems wrong to me...who am I to say what's best for them?!? I am not bigger or more important than anyone else, yet most people just love to shove their beliefs and thoughts down my throat. Here's something....we don't have to agree on everything, but you stay out of my life, and I'll stay out of yours. Simple. Respectful.
Why couldn't we vote on the recent issue of drug testing for those on unemployment, btw? Why was that in in-house thing?
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Personally, I don't think I should even have a say in who marries who?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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At the backbone of any and all society and civilization is a set of principles and laws that legislate behavior among the citizens of a state or country. Many of these could be considered moral judgements. Don't steal, don't kill. don't lie under oath, don't cheat people out of their money, and so on. At their core, these are the things that separate civilization from the law of the jungle. In the jungle, the strongest force would prevail, and the weak would either perish, or lose whatever the strongest wanted to take.
Many, many laws in our society have a moral component to them. Don't have sex with children, don't commit rape, don't marry more than one person, etc. These laws all have a moral judgement aspect to them.
As far as gay marriage, I have long been on record as supporting a secular civil union for gay couples. People ask me "well why is defending a word so important to you?", and I would ask the same in reverse. If a gay couple gets to spend the rest of their lives together, joined in a loving relationship, and in a legal institution that gives them all of the same rights, responsibilities, and privledges as a married couple receives, then what difference does it make if it is called "marriage", or "sam"? If you could have all of the same rights and privledges of marriage, but it was called a "secular civil union", or even just a "civil union" ....... or if it was called "blooto" ...... wouldn't you want to join with the person of your choosing? The insistence that the meaning of the word marriage should be changed to include gay couples is, IMHO, more than anything else, what has held back the cause of gay legal unions, and is the biggest rallying point for groups who place badly written amendments on ballots, which are then usually passed in sizable margins.
In most polls I have seen, support for gay civil unions is significantly higher than for gay marriage. However, this isn't good enough. Wanting to change the meaning of the word "marriage" has slammed the door shut for gay couples across the country who want to have a legal joined relationship with the person they want to spend the rest of their lives with.
People can say that voters are intolerant and such, but some blame lies with the movement itself that tries to force their morality on a wider range of society. It seems to me that voters would accept a way of legally allowing a gay union without the perceived religious approval that changing the word marriage to include gay couples would imply. This really is the basis of the argument. Gay couples want the acceptance that the word marriage would convey. They want the societal, religious, and moral approval it would imply. However, religious institutions are never going to accept gay behavior as moral, even if they accept the right of people to be gay. The whole thing truly does seem to me to be an attempt to put a thumb in the eye of religious people and institutions, rather than a purely heartfelt attempt to have a union that would allow 2 people to live together in a legal bond.
I know that it is parsing words in a way, but the gay marriage movement does the same, just coming from the other side. Plus, they have given up the right to have a legal union in many states by pushing people into poorly written "all or nothing" ballot issues.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
People can say that voters are intolerant and such, but some blame lies with the movement itself that tries to force their morality on a wider range of society.
Legalizing gay marriage isn't forcing anyone's morality on anyone in any way, shape, or form. Not allowing it, however, is.
I find it completely ridiculous that the religious are always the one claiming that everyone is trying to force their morals on them, when it's almost always the other way around.
If gay marriage were deemed legal by the Supreme Court tomorrow, you would be absolutely free to not attend gay weddings. The church would be absolutely free to not recognize or perform gay weddings. You could, if you chose, live your life without having to deal with gay marriage, outside of maybe having neighbors that were married, or possibly passing by a gay wedding while driving. That's not forcing anything on you. Not in the least. Gay marriage being legal wouldn't affect your freedoms whatsoever. You wouldn't be 'forced' to do anything, nor would anything be 'forced' upon you.
Now, on the flip side, banning gay marriage is forcing your morals upon another.
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If it's a moral issue one way, then it has to be, by definition, a moral issue the other way.
In many ways it really has been an attempt by gay leaders to shove the noses of religious people in it. It's been a case of "we'll show them", instead of "we'll reach an accommodation and get what we actually want".
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
If it's a moral issue one way, then it has to be, by definition, a moral issue the other way.
In many ways it really has been an attempt by gay leaders to shove the noses of religious people in it. It's been a case of "we'll show them", instead of "we'll reach an accommodation and get what we actually want".
So you object to the methods used to achieve the desired result but not the desired result?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that gay couples should have the right to a union that has the same rights and responsibilities, but not that we should change marriage to become something that it has never been before.
On the religious side, I do not believe that this should be a marriage. I believe in the traditional meaning of marriage. However, like I said, as a societal issue, in the secular arena, I don't feel that gay couples should be kept from joining together in a union.
I do think that the insistence by gay activists that gay unions be called marriage has caused many of the state issues that now forbid even a union that "approximates" marriage. Activists went for all or nothing, and in many cases, got nothing.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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If it's a moral issue one way, then it has to be, by definition, a moral issue the other way.
Again, their morality isn't being 'forced' upon you. Two people of the same sex being married has zero effect on you. Nada. You don't have to rent a tux and attend, or make a speech, or buy them a gift. You don't have to say that you condone it. Your church doesn't have to say that they condone it. If you choose to, you can live a life where gay marriage plays virtually no part in it. The most you'll have to deal with is having married gay neighbors, or married gay co-workers, and you're free to avoid them if you want. You don't have to conform to someone else's morality one iota.
On the other hand, you are trying to make others conform to your morality. They do have their freedoms restricted and your morals are being forced upon others.
Morally, I'm opposed to the KKK. And they have a legal right to exist, and march and speak their minds. I've even come across a few members over the course of my life. And you know what ... nothing's been forced upon me. My nose is not being rubbed in the morals of the KKK. I am free to keep them out of my life, and I have done so with very high success. However, if I were to say it should be illegal for them to march or protest or pass out literature, then I would be forcing my morals onto them.
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In many ways it really has been an attempt by gay leaders to shove the noses of religious people in it. It's been a case of "we'll show them", instead of "we'll reach an accommodation and get what we actually want".
Yes, that's clearly it. 
What they want is equal freedom under equal terms.
And I'm yet to understand how two people getting married outside of the church is rubbing their nose in anything. Does the church have to attend? Is the wedding party going to hang out in the parking lot after noon mass? How is the church affected in any way, outside of the law not agreeing with their morals, which it already doesn't?
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j/c
I see PDR, Ytown and Daman are getting in typing shape for the upcoming election cycle by stating the same things over and over as per usual.
now guys, we need you for the election push. make sure to rotate your wrists every 15-20 minutes, wear a carpal-protector if needed, stretch your neck and back (be careful Ytown). Oh, and get your eyes enough rest.
Remember, it's a marathon until the last mile where it becomes a sprint. Don't be like Bodemeister and use everything up in the first half of the race.
#gmstrong
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I'm just not going to even bother with you on this any more. It really is the same stuff back and forth to no end ..... and I kinda feel almost like you're stalking me.
Religious people see marriage as a sacred institution, and gay as a sin. the 2 are completely and absolutely incompatible. There is no way to make the 2 compatible for churchgoing religious people.
While you may convince religious people that gay people have a right to a secular institution with the same rights and responsibilities as marriage, you will never convince them to allow gay marriage itself. I don't see it happening in my lifetime.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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I'm just not going to even bother with you on this anymore.
Stay classy. 
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Legend
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Well, I'm not gonna change his mind and he's not gonna change my mind.
Given that .... it's senseless to continue replying to him on this matter.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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I'm just not going to even bother with you on this any more. It really is the same stuff back and forth to no end ..... and I kinda feel almost like you're stalking me.
This is one of the funnier 'I can't refute your point, so I'll divert' statements I've seen in awhile. Very Michael Scott-esque.
I'm not saying that just to be facetious ... it really did crack me up and, to be honest, I could use the laugh.
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Religious people see marriage as a sacred institution, and gay as a sin. the 2 are completely and absolutely incompatible. There is no way to make the 2 compatible for churchgoing religious people.
And what, exactly, does this have to do with law?
Zero.
This argument doesn't hold a single drop of water in the legal arena (where gay marriage will eventually be decided).
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While you may convince religious people that gay people have a right to a secular institution with the same rights and responsibilities as marriage, you will never convince them to allow gay marriage itself. I don't see it happening in my lifetime.
I've seen plenty already in my lifetime that were convinced that their prior bigotry was wrong. I expect to see plenty more.
And beyond that ... no one has to convince religious people of anything ... why do you insist on acting like our laws are or should be dictated by religion?
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Legend
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Religious people vote, especially when issues like this arise. .
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Religious people vote, especially when issues like this arise. .
That's not the point.
Last edited by OSGuy; 05/26/12 07:53 PM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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#GMSTRONG
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As I've said, voting really doesn't matter here.
A) Trends are that acceptance of gay marriage is soon to be in the majority.
B) Plenty of religious folks have voted to ban gay marriage, only to have a court overturn it as unconstitutional
These are two trends you continue to bury your head in the sand on.
As I've said ... in the end, voting won't be what matters. The courts will end up deciding this, and in the end, there's no legal justification for banning gay marriage. Not one.
It will be legal, countrywide, within the next twenty years.
Also ... can you explain how gay marriage being legal is someone 'shoving' their morals into your face? You've yet to explain that, or how you wanting gay marriage to be illegal isn't you shoving your morals in their faces.
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Legend
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I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that gay couples should have the right to a union that has the same rights and responsibilities, but not that we should change marriage to become something that it has never been before.
On the religious side, I do not believe that this should be a marriage. I believe in the traditional meaning of marriage. However, like I said, as a societal issue, in the secular arena, I don't feel that gay couples should be kept from joining together in a union.
I do think that the insistence by gay activists that gay unions be called marriage has caused many of the state issues that now forbid even a union that "approximates" marriage. Activists went for all or nothing, and in many cases, got nothing.
Well hell, I wouldn't want you to compromise your belief systems.. But I just happen to see it differently. I'm absolutly convinced that I, you and others in this country should tell people who to marrry and I see nothing wrong with calling it a marriage.
So,, we just disagree on terminology
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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At the backbone of any and all society and civilization is a set of principles and laws that legislate behavior among the citizens of a state or country. Many of these could be considered moral judgements. Don't steal, don't kill. don't lie under oath, don't cheat people out of their money, and so on. At their core, these are the things that separate civilization from the law of the jungle. In the jungle, the strongest force would prevail, and the weak would either perish, or lose whatever the strongest wanted to take.
Many, many laws in our society have a moral component to them. Don't have sex with children, don't commit rape, don't marry more than one person, etc. These laws all have a moral judgement aspect to them.
As far as gay marriage, I have long been on record as supporting a secular civil union for gay couples. People ask me "well why is defending a word so important to you?", and I would ask the same in reverse. If a gay couple gets to spend the rest of their lives together, joined in a loving relationship, and in a legal institution that gives them all of the same rights, responsibilities, and privledges as a married couple receives, then what difference does it make if it is called "marriage", or "sam"? If you could have all of the same rights and privledges of marriage, but it was called a "secular civil union", or even just a "civil union" ....... or if it was called "blooto" ...... wouldn't you want to join with the person of your choosing? The insistence that the meaning of the word marriage should be changed to include gay couples is, IMHO, more than anything else, what has held back the cause of gay legal unions, and is the biggest rallying point for groups who place badly written amendments on ballots, which are then usually passed in sizable margins.
In most polls I have seen, support for gay civil unions is significantly higher than for gay marriage. However, this isn't good enough. Wanting to change the meaning of the word "marriage" has slammed the door shut for gay couples across the country who want to have a legal joined relationship with the person they want to spend the rest of their lives with.
People can say that voters are intolerant and such, but some blame lies with the movement itself that tries to force their morality on a wider range of society. It seems to me that voters would accept a way of legally allowing a gay union without the perceived religious approval that changing the word marriage to include gay couples would imply. This really is the basis of the argument. Gay couples want the acceptance that the word marriage would convey. They want the societal, religious, and moral approval it would imply. However, religious institutions are never going to accept gay behavior as moral, even if they accept the right of people to be gay. The whole thing truly does seem to me to be an attempt to put a thumb in the eye of religious people and institutions, rather than a purely heartfelt attempt to have a union that would allow 2 people to live together in a legal bond.
I know that it is parsing words in a way, but the gay marriage movement does the same, just coming from the other side. Plus, they have given up the right to have a legal union in many states by pushing people into poorly written "all or nothing" ballot issues.
Just in case people skimmed over it I'm quoting the above.
This is exactly how I feel as well. Well said. 
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I agree. Especially this statement: Quote:
If a gay couple gets to spend the rest of their lives together, joined in a loving relationship, and in a legal institution that gives them all of the same rights, responsibilities, and privledges as a married couple receives, then what difference does it make if it is called "marriage", or "sam"?
This would meet the needs of all involved. But in this day and age of someone having to win and rub the noses of the loser in it, it just makes too much sense.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Legend
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I agree. Especially this statement:
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If a gay couple gets to spend the rest of their lives together, joined in a loving relationship, and in a legal institution that gives them all of the same rights, responsibilities, and privledges as a married couple receives, then what difference does it make if it is called "marriage", or "sam"?
This would meet the needs of all involved. But in this day and age of someone having to win and rub the noses of the loser in it, it just makes too much sense.
If there's no difference between calling it marriage' and 'sam' ... then let's just call it what it is - marriage.
And it's not about winners and losers ... it's about equal rights on equal terms.
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