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Quote:
http://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2012/01/nfl/
NFL Players Tackling Heart Disease
Categories: Cancer, Cardiovascular Disease, Professional Athletes
January 30th, 2012 9:53 am ET - Sherry Baron, MD, MPH
Many football players are essentially paid to be big—really big—especially those whose job is to block or stop the big guys on the other team. There is a good chance that these players weigh in at sizes that are classified as obese as defined by body mass index (BMI). In the general population, high BMI generally correlates with high body fat, and we know that high body fat is a risk factor for death (mortality) and heart disease. Is the same true for elite athletes, for whom high BMI may relate to increased muscularity rather than increased body fat? What if the athlete plays a position where size simply matters, regardless of whether size is related to muscle or to body fat? And what happens when former athletes are no longer conditioning at their playing-day levels? Do professional football players die earlier than or more often from heart disease or cancer than the average American male? New research from the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) helps answer these and other questions.
In 1994, NIOSH published research examining death rates and risk factors for former National Football League (NFL) players.1 At that time the research was based on all deaths that had occurred through 1991. After following these players for an additional 16 years, NIOSH has just published new research on the topic in the American Journal of Cardiology.
The study included 3,439 retired NFL players from the 1959 through 1988 seasons. The study found that:
•Players had a much lower overall rate of death compared to men in the general U.S. population of similar age and racial mix. On average, NFL players are actually living longer than the average American male. Out of the 3,439 players in the study, 334 were deceased. Based on estimates from the general population, we anticipated roughly 625 deaths.
•Players also had a much lower rate of cancer-related deaths compared to the general U.S. population. A total of 85 players died from cancer when we anticipated 146 cancer-related deaths based on estimates from the general population.
•Players who had a playing-time BMI of 30 or more had twice the risk of death from heart disease compared to other players. Similar findings have been noted in other studies. Offensive and defensive linemen were more likely to have a BMI greater than 30. A BMI of 30 or more is considered obese in the general population whereas a healthy BMI is between 18.5-24.9.
•African American players had a 69% higher risk of death from heart disease compared to Caucasian players. The study controlled for player size and position and determined that those factors are not the reason for this difference.
•Defensive linemen had a 42% higher risk of death from heart disease compared to men in the general population. A total of 41 defensive linemen died of heart disease, when we anticipated 29 deaths based on estimates from the general population. Among the 41 defensive linemen who died of heart disease, 8 deaths were due to cardiomyopathy (a specific kind of heart disease that causes the heart to enlarge and can lead to heart failure). We anticipated fewer than two deaths from cardiomyopathy. We saw this increased risk only among the defensive linemen.
What Does This Mean?
The fact that players live longer than the average American male is likely explained by several factors including previously documented low levels of cigarette smoking which is an important contributor to decreased mortality.2,3 Players’ body composition (more muscle mass) and high fitness levels likely also contribute to their longer life span compared to the general U.S. population, especially given their increased size. The study did not attempt to contact retired players so we do not have information about whether players smoked or if they have a family history of heart disease, cholesterol, or diabetes. We also lack information on changes in players’ fitness and weight after retirement.
Different access to or compliance with improved medical therapies and prevention methods could be one explanation for the differences in cardiovascular-related deaths between offensive and defensive linemen and deserves further evaluation. Since 2000, cardiovascular disease deaths for defensive linemen, after accounting for differences in size, have been similar to other players. This may indicate a positive impact from the increased media attention and expanded health promotion campaigns by the NFL and the NFL Players Association since the initial NIOSH report in 1994.2,3
Racial disparities in heart disease risk factors, illness and death are well documented in the general population4 and are partly explained by racial differences in socioeconomic status (see HHS Office of Minority Health ).5 The racial disparity in heart disease deaths in NFL players is notable given players’ more similar socioeconomic status during their playing career and the absence of racial differences in hypertension or prehypertension (indicators of heart disease) in active NFL players. 3
Anabolic androgenic steroid use in athletes has been associated with various adverse cardiovascular outcomes including altered lipid profiles, atherosclerosis, and increased left ventricular dimensions and could contribute to CVD mortality in NFL players.6 A survey of 3,683 retired players found 9% reported anabolic steroid use while playing but offensive and defensive linemen were most likely to report use (16.3% and 14.8%, respectively). Reported usage for all players peaked in the 1980s at 20%.7
What Next?
The study found an association between weight (as expressed in BMI) and risk for heart disease. Further research is needed to determine whether or to what degree the specific characteristics of a defensive lineman’s playing position, training regimen or post-playing lifestyle might contribute to risk for heart disease.
The decrease in risk for cardiovascular disease deaths for defensive linemen since 2000 would seem to indicate that attention to this issue can reduce risk for death. We realize that professional athletes are physically unique compared to the general population. When players retire or stop playing due to injury, activity levels may decrease. This lack of activity may result in an increase in percentage of body fat, which places strain on the heart. Though football-related injuries may make it difficult to exercise regularly, it is important that players continue to be active to achieve or maintain a healthy weight. As with the general population, it is also important that players take steps to protect themselves from cardiovascular disease (see CDC guidelines) such as not smoking, eating right and receiving appropriate treatment for medical conditions like high blood pressure and diabetes.
After the 1994 study, the NFL started the NFL Retired Player Cardiovascular Screening Program which provides testing and monitoring for heart health at various locations across the country. Screenings like this as well as regular consultations with their doctors can help players monitor their health and take the necessary step to prevent illness and death.
Dr. Baron is the Coordinator for Occupational Health Disparities at NIOSH
References
1.Baron S, Rinsky R. Health Hazard Evaluation Report, National Football League Players Mortality Study. Report No. HETA 88-085. Atlanta, GA: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, 1994.
2.Miller MA, Croft LB, Belanger AR, Romero-Corral A, Somers VK, Roberts AJ, Goldman ME. Prevalence of metabolic syndrome in retired National Football League players. Am J Cardiol 2008;101:1281– 1284.
3.Tucker AM, Vogel RA, Lincoln AE, Dunn RE, Ahrensfield DC, Allen TW, Castle LW, Heyer RA, Pellman EJ, Strollo PJ Jr, Wilson PW, Yates AP. Prevalence of cardiovascular disease risk factors among National Football League players. JAMA 2009;301:2111–2119.
4.Mensah GA, Mokdad AH, Ford ES, Greenlund KJ, Croft JB. State of disparities in cardiovascular health in the United States. Circulation 2005;111:1233–1241.
5.Williams DR, Mohammed SA, Leavell J, Collins C. Race, socioeconomic status, and health: complexities, ongoing challenges, and research opportunities. Ann N Y Acad Sci 2010;1186:69 –101.
6.Achar S, Rostamian A, Narayan SM. Cardiac and metabolic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroid buse on lipids, blood pressure, left ventricular dimensions, and rhythm. Am J Cardiol 2010;106:893–901.
7.Horn S, Gregory P, Guskiewicz KM. Self-reported anabolic-androgenic steroids use and musculoskeletal injuries: findings from the Center for the Study of Retired Athletes Health Survey of Retired NFL Players. Am J Phys Med Rehabil 2009;88:192–200.
#gmstrong
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#gmstrong
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Wow, that's surprising.
Of course, I would guess that far fewer black NFL players die of violence or street crime than do "average" black men. Further, I would guess that at least some of them continue the lifting and running they did as a player, even if not to the same extent they did as a player. That probably puts them far ahead of the "average" man in the US.
It is interesting that this study came out at the very time the NFL is being sued by its former players over the issue of head injuries.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Of course, I would guess that far fewer black NFL players die of violence or street crime than do "average" black men.
Wow. And how often do you suspect the average black man is getting gunned down?
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Given that most crime against black people is black on black crime ..... and how most of the murders in the Youngstown area and surrounding areas are usually black victims ..... I would say that it is far more often than white men are being gunned down ..... especially in the inner cities.
Most of the black players in the NFL come from poorer backgrounds. Sure there are some like Griffith III, and James-Michael Johnson who come from middle class or above families .... and players like Minnefield, whose father played in the NFL ...... but I would bet that a vast majority of black players in the NFL come from inner city environments, where violence is most likely to occur.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Of course, I would guess that far fewer black NFL players die of violence or street crime than do "average" black men.
Wow. And how often do you suspect the average black man is getting gunned down?
For people born in 1980, which would put you in your early 30s right now...
Average life expectancy of white males - 70
Average life expectancy of black males - 63.8
Percent of blacks in the overall population - 12.6%
Percent of blacks in the NFL - 65%
His comment is perfectly valid.... whether you want to attribute it to violence, poor health care, whatever... it makes sense that blacks in the NFL are going to pull the average up.
yebat' Putin
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Given that most crime against black people is black on black crime ..... and how most of the murders in the Youngstown area and surrounding areas are usually black victims ..... I would say that it is far more often than white men are being gunned down ..... especially in the inner cities.
Most of the black players in the NFL come from poorer backgrounds. Sure there are some like Griffith III, and James-Michael Johnson who come from middle class or above families .... and players like Minnefield, whose father played in the NFL ...... but I would bet that a vast majority of black players in the NFL come from inner city environments, where violence is most likely to occur.
Man, I just don't even know where to begin. You seem to have decent intentions, and you seem to be trying to back up your thoughts with stats and facts, but, man, that's just all kinds of racist right there. Again, I'm not saying you're trying to be racist, or that you believe your better than blacks or anything, but I think it would do you some good to really examine the source of your opinions here. Because, whether intentional or not, they're racist.
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It's not racist, it's a generalization, though. Every single time (literally) they're doing background on a black athlete in the NFL, they're talking about the inner city, "I had to stay focused and stay off the streets", that type of thing.
Put another way, I've never heard a black NFL athlete talk about the privileged life he lived while growing up. I have not heard that once. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but those stories just aren't out there.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Quote:
Of course, I would guess that far fewer black NFL players die of violence or street crime than do "average" black men.
taking race out of the equation here (it's actually already taken into account when figuring out the average overall numbers for their study):
average deaths by assault and homicide:
26 for average American
4 for the NFL in this study
this is out of 3439 people with 334 deaths (and 625 expected deaths based on averages in the sample pool)
so, violence is a very small fraction of what would account for in deaths for this study.
Quote:
It is interesting that this study came out at the very time the NFL is being sued by its former players over the issue of head injuries
this study was actually requested by the NFLPA in 1994. they released their findings sometime back then and planned on re-evaluating it 15 years later. This is the findings from the 15year later study (same sample pool of players, but obviously alot happens in 15 years).
as far as brain trauma:
mental, psychoneurotic, and personality disorders 4 (expected 12)
diseases of the nervous system and sense organs 12 (expected 10)
though this does not include players living with those diseases. it would be interesting to see those numbers as well.
heart disease is the obvious red flag from the study, but it was in 1994 as well. the NFL and NFLPA actually have been enacting safety measures since 1999 on it and they claim to be within a component of error since then (though no official study has been done that I can find - that was in one of the articles linking to this study)
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This is kind of a base-rate fallacy. A much, much smaller sample size on the NFL players side.
The bigger question to ponder is the quality of life issue beyond, say, 50.
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Quote:
This is kind of a base-rate fallacy. A much, much smaller sample size on the NFL players side.
The bigger question to ponder is the quality of life issue beyond, say, 50.
it is one of the questions to ponder, yes (which is why I brought up the 'living with neuo-disease' issue rather than just those whom have died)
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
Given that most crime against black people is black on black crime ..... and how most of the murders in the Youngstown area and surrounding areas are usually black victims ..... I would say that it is far more often than white men are being gunned down ..... especially in the inner cities.
Most of the black players in the NFL come from poorer backgrounds. Sure there are some like Griffith III, and James-Michael Johnson who come from middle class or above families .... and players like Minnefield, whose father played in the NFL ...... but I would bet that a vast majority of black players in the NFL come from inner city environments, where violence is most likely to occur.
Man, I just don't even know where to begin. You seem to have decent intentions, and you seem to be trying to back up your thoughts with stats and facts, but, man, that's just all kinds of racist right there. Again, I'm not saying you're trying to be racist, or that you believe your better than blacks or anything, but I think it would do you some good to really examine the source of your opinions here. Because, whether intentional or not, they're racist.
See, this is the problem with trying to have a conversation that includes race in any way, shape, or form.
If you look at crime statistics in Youngstown, almost every violent crime is either committed in a predominantly black neighborhood, or by a black youth. There is no disputing this. It is fact.
Here is a site detailing some of the crime statistics for Youngstown:
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/oh/youngstown/crime/
If you look at the map, you can see what areas are safest, and which are least safe. The downtown area has improved greatly. There is very little housing in the downtown area, and it is patrolled heavily. The YSU area is also one of the safer areas. However, the other areas of higher crime rates are all predominantly black areas. This is not a racially motivated statement, rather it is an indisputable fact. Most violent crime in Youngstown is black on black crime, and almost all violent crime in the Youngstown area is committed by black felons. There are a variety of factors involved in this, but trying to pretend that this isn't the case does no one any good.
I am willing to bet that this is the same case in almost every inner city environment in America. It is a situation we should work to change. However, pretending that fact is somehow racially motivated is just an idiotic statement. More violence is committed in inner cities than in suburbs.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/bvvc.pdf
Here is a report from the Department of Justice.
One line, at the very front of the article, that stands out for me is this:
Blacks were victims of an estimated 805,000 nonfatal violent crimes and of about 8,000 homicides in 2005. While blacks accounted for 13% of the U.S. population in 2005, they were victims in 15% of all nonfatal violent crimes and nearly half of all homicides. These findings are based on data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) and the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s (FBI) Uniform Crime Reporting Program
(UCR), Supplementary Homicide Reports.
So black people account for 50% of all homicides despite just accounting for 13% of the population. Guess they must be racist too.
More from the article:
Blacks living in urban areas were more likely than those in suburban or rural areas to be victims of violence. Black victims of homicide were most likely to be male (85%) and between ages 17 and 29 (51%). Homicides against blacks were more likely than those against whites
to occur in highly populated areas, including cities and suburbs.
About 53% of homicides against blacks in 2005 took place in areas with populations of at least 250,000 people, compared to about 33% of homicides of white victims.
Blacks were killed with a firearm in about 77% of homicides against them.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/race-wars-part-1-the-shocking-data-on-black-on-black-crime/
Further ......
A 2007 special report released by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, reveals that approximately 8,000 — and, in certain years, as many as 9,000 African Americans are murdered annually in the United States. This chilling figure is accompanied by another equally sobering fact, that 93% of these murders are in fact perpetrated by other blacks. The analysis, supported by FBI records, finds that in 2005 alone, for example, African Americans accounted for 49% of all homicide victims in the US — again, almost exclusively at the hands of other African Americans.
I stand by my comments. The fact that they are horrific, and should be a wake up call to black people everywhere changes nothing as far as their impact. There is nothing racist about pointing out facts. You seem to think that if we ignore a problem, then it will simply go away.
There is a major problem with black on black violent crime, most common in inner city environments. I believe that the breakdown of families in such environments, along with certain economic factors are leading causes, but given the disparity of crimes showing a majority of violent crimes being committed by black people, and predominantly against other black people, even among inner city residents, well, I don't know what the answer is there.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Quote:
See, this is the problem with trying to have a conversation that includes race in any way, shape, or form.
You are correct.. typically if you try to use race as a factor to prove or disprove anything, and the facts reflect negatively on the minority, you are called a racist.. its a very big obstacle in this country toward actually having a decent dialogue on race related issues.
yebat' Putin
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Great and articulate points. Again, I'm not saying your facts or stats or off or your intentions are bad. I'm just going to point to this in your comments: Quote:
The fact that they are horrific, and should be a wake up call to black people everywhere changes nothing as far as their impact....
It's little, but it speaks to me. It should be a wake up call to all people. It's a way of thinking that points a finger and steps back from the problems. You think blacks aren't awake to the violence destroying their families? They're wide awake, man. We aren't doing enough to change it.
As for the original comments, what spoke racism to me was the immediate assumption that it's this black on black violence that must be the cause of earlier deaths. Not the systematic discrimination by a society and government dominated by wealthier white people.
In no way am I stating that Blacks are just victims and are not also responsible for improving their own plight, but the source of the racial divide in the country, economic, social, political, etc., is entirely and completely at the feet of Whites and the reverberations of Slavery and systematic discrimination that continues today.
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Quote:
Quote:
Given that most crime against black people is black on black crime ..... and how most of the murders in the Youngstown area and surrounding areas are usually black victims ..... I would say that it is far more often than white men are being gunned down ..... especially in the inner cities.
Most of the black players in the NFL come from poorer backgrounds. Sure there are some like Griffith III, and James-Michael Johnson who come from middle class or above families .... and players like Minnefield, whose father played in the NFL ...... but I would bet that a vast majority of black players in the NFL come from inner city environments, where violence is most likely to occur.
Man, I just don't even know where to begin. You seem to have decent intentions, and you seem to be trying to back up your thoughts with stats and facts, but, man, that's just all kinds of racist right there. Again, I'm not saying you're trying to be racist, or that you believe your better than blacks or anything, but I think it would do you some good to really examine the source of your opinions here. Because, whether intentional or not, they're racist.
saying there is more black on black crime in youngstown is not racist, its a fact.
here is the definition of racism
1. The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race
2. Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.
what word is common to both definitions? BELIEF.
black on black crime happens in youngstown? thats a FACT.
i doubt you want me to go into the difference between Beliefs and Facts ...
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Dawg Talker
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In no way am I stating that Blacks are just victims and are not also responsible for improving their own plight, but the source of the racial divide in the country, economic, social, political, etc., is entirely and completely at the feet of Whites and the reverberations of Slavery and systematic discrimination that continues today.
there you go being racist against "whites"
here is the definition of racism
1. The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race
not all white people were slave holders
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Quote:
Quote:
See, this is the problem with trying to have a conversation that includes race in any way, shape, or form.
You are correct.. typically if you try to use race as a factor to prove or disprove anything, and the facts reflect negatively on the minority, you are called a racist. its a very big obstacle in this country toward actually having a decent dialogue on race related issues.
That and racism. I know you're doing everything you can DC, to end racism, and its just those jerks who keep trying to silence the conversation by bringing up racism every time you are innocently pointing out facts that reflect poorly on minorities. I get it man. It's a rough road. Please don't ever take that personally and use it as a reason to reexamine your attitudes toward race. Just because people keep pointing out you're a racist, doesn't mean they have any basis in reality. Keep up the good fight, though. And if it gets too hard on you, just try to take solace in the fact that at the end of the day, you still get to be white.
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Hall of Famer
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NFL Players Live Longer than Average American
Athletes live longer than fat, lazy slobs? Get OUTTA here . . .
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ok, if you are done on your point about whether or not certain posts were racist, how do you feel about the actual thread, which you have yet to address?
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
In no way am I stating that Blacks are just victims and are not also responsible for improving their own plight, but the source of the racial divide in the country, economic, social, political, etc., is entirely and completely at the feet of Whites and the reverberations of Slavery and systematic discrimination that continues today.
there you go being racist against "whites"
here is the definition of racism
1. The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race
not all white people were slave holders
Man, that is so old and tired and you know that's not what I'm saying. Are you trying to say that slavery wasn't perpetrated by Whites? Are you saying that the systematic discrimination against minorities that has and does exist in the country doesn't benefit Whites, whether we ask for it to or not? Are you saying that because a half Black guy is President that there is no racism? See how easy it is to make up illogical crap based on your statements?
If you want call me a racist against white, fine. Poor poor whites are the victims of racism because everyone lumps them together as the beneficiaries of centuries of oppression, genocide, and discrimination. Seriously, if you want to support racism, at least come up with some better arguments than that tired old song.
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Quote:
Quote:
NFL Players Live Longer than Average American
Athletes live longer than fat, lazy slobs? Get OUTTA here . . .
yes, I know, shocking isn't it? the weird thing to me in all this talk about the detriments of being a NFL player was the fact that all of the benefits were being sorely ignored.
would all of these players be working as hard on their physical health if they were not a professional athlete? a vast majority likely would not.
the funny thing is that the NFLPA ordered this study (and paid for btw) in 1994 because they thought they would find that the athletes are actually worse off despite the inherent advantages of exercise. this study goes to show that isn't true (at least from a mortality rate - standard of living, as has been brought up, has not been studied that I know of).
#gmstrong
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ok, if you are done on your point about whether or not certain posts were racist, how do you feel about the actual thread, which you have yet to address?
It's interesting. Seems to be too small a sample size, as somebody suggested, and also likely that there are a myriad of factors, ranging from the benefits of vigorous exercise and diet, access to healthcare, the latent tendencies of violent sports to show up many years later, being rich, and etc. Also, the fact that smoking and obesity are the primary behaviours of the average american that cause death, and most atheletes do not have those issues. Quite possibly also something to do with removal from inner city violence, although, as someone else pointed out, that is likely so statistically insignificant as to have zero practical effect.
Also, I have no idea why the results of the study are what they are. I'm uneducated beyond that little article. I just like calling people racists. 
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Sure they should be a wake up call to all people ..... but most white people aren't impacted by black on black violence. It is of far more immediate importance to black people in Youngstown.
To pretend otherwise is foolish at best. In the case of most white people, it is a story on the news. To many black people, it is a friend or family member, either victim to crime, dead, or in jail.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Sure they should be a wake up call to all people ..... but most white people aren't impacted by black on black violence.
Just my personal opinion here, but I think that statement is dead wrong. We are severely impacted by it, just not directly, which makes us believe it's not our problem, which causes us to generally do very little to help the problem. It kills us. All of us.
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Legend
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Legend
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Actually ..... it doesn't.
The lawyer living in Canfield isn't impacted by black on black violence on the South Side of Youngstown. (unless he is a criminal lawyer) His taxes go to keeping his city safe, and he probably rarely, if ever heads to Youngstown, unless it is to go to court.
Black on black violence has about as much impact on his life as does violence in Pakistan. Heck, if he has someone serving in Afghanistan, that violence may be of greater concern to him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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OP
Legend
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It's interesting. Seems to be too small a sample size, as somebody suggested,
quite possible, but it's a good cross-section I would think given the eras it spans
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and also likely that there are a myriad of factors, ranging from the benefits of vigorous exercise and diet, access to healthcare,
being rich, and etc.
Also, the fact that smoking and obesity are the primary behaviours of the average american that cause death, and most atheletes do not have those issues.
all benefits directly associated with being a NFL player (sorry, moved some of the other benefits from below up because it fit)
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the latent tendencies of violent sports to show up many years later,
the study involves players from seasons 1959-1988. up to 69yo men. so, the later effects should be minimally not covered.
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Quite possibly also something to do with removal from inner city violence, although, as someone else pointed out, that is likely so statistically insignificant as to have zero practical effect.
that was me. and, while not zero-effect, certainly not enough to move the needle much.
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Also, I have no idea why the results of the study are what they are. I'm uneducated beyond that little article. I just like calling people racists.
yeah, I am no expert on it, I just find it fascinating that all the discussion has been on all the negative aspects of being a NFL player while ignoring the positives.
#gmstrong
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2nd String
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2nd String
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Actually ..... it doesn't.
The lawyer living in Canfield isn't impacted by black on black violence on the South Side of Youngstown. (unless he is a criminal lawyer) His taxes go to keeping his city safe, and he probably rarely, if ever heads to Youngstown, unless it is to go to court.
Black on black violence has about as much impact on his life as does violence in Pakistan. Heck, if he has someone serving in Afghanistan, that violence may be of greater concern to him.
Kind of the way that the Taliban and Al Queda's holy war on Israel had no impact on us in 2001. Uh, that's right, it caused one of the worst attacks on American soil in history. You are willing blind if you believe violence in your neighbor's yard doesn't effect you because your taxes are paid in a different district. Seriously, man, read some history. It's full of dudes thinking other people's problems had no effect on them, right up to the minute their heads were being chopped off.
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Legend
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Legend
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Perhaps .... but even the biggest blow ups have had little impact on most people's lives.
There was massive rioting after the Rodney King case ..... yet it impacted very few people outside of the people burning down their own homes.
The simple fact is that people have very short memories about stuff that doesn't directly impact their lives. People worry most about the things that directly impact them most.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Legend
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Given that most crime against black people is black on black crime ..... and how most of the murders in the Youngstown area and surrounding areas are usually black victims ..... I would say that it is far more often than white men are being gunned down ..... especially in the inner cities.
Most of the black players in the NFL come from poorer backgrounds. Sure there are some like Griffith III, and James-Michael Johnson who come from middle class or above families .... and players like Minnefield, whose father played in the NFL ...... but I would bet that a vast majority of black players in the NFL come from inner city environments, where violence is most likely to occur.
Man, I just don't even know where to begin. You seem to have decent intentions, and you seem to be trying to back up your thoughts with stats and facts, but, man, that's just all kinds of racist right there. Again, I'm not saying you're trying to be racist, or that you believe your better than blacks or anything, but I think it would do you some good to really examine the source of your opinions here. Because, whether intentional or not, they're racist.
I don't think he was being racist when he made that statement.
It would be like me saying if you're black, you're more likely to end up in jail. That's simply a fact. It's not racist to point out ugly facts.
Now, if he or I were to attribute getting killed or jailed as likely because of something inherent in the black race, well, then, yeah, that's racist.
But blacks are more likely, statistically, to be shot and killed at a young age, or to be jailed. And that has nothing to do with race -- it has to do with class. The poorer you are, the more likely you are to wind up dead or in jail at a young age.
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Are you trying to say that slavery wasn't perpetrated by Whites?
I never "try" to say anything. If I wrote it, I said it. Saying slavery was perpetrated by whites is neglecting thousands of years of history. Egyptians enslaved Jews. The black kingdoms of Africa enslaved other black kingdoms of Africa. Feudal lords held serfs. Saying that slavery was perpetrated by whites is a VERY old argument. Slavery existed and the people that participated in it were products of their environment. That may sound crass, but it's true. Now, I don't agree with their stance on slavery, but that's what happened.
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Are you saying that the systematic discrimination against minorities that has and does exist in the country doesn't benefit Whites, whether we ask for it to or not?
I am saying it is not systematic. You can't make generalizations. Youngstown has the same amount of black people and white people. Therefore, the black is not the minority in Youngstown. Does being white in Youngstown benefit me? No. I know just as many black people that go to college, get good jobs, and work hard for their money as I do white people that live off of welfare waiting for their next opportunity to get high. In this day and age, everyone has the same opportunity. I know I am saying this as a white person, but at every level of business I have been part of, the skin color does not matter to the person doing the hiring.
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Are you saying that because a half Black guy is President that there is no racism?
No. There is the same amount of racism towards blacks in west Virginia as there is whites in downtown LA and towards mexicans in general
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See how easy it is to make up illogical crap based on your statements?
i dont view what i said as illogical
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If you want call me a racist against white, fine. Poor poor whites are the victims of racism because everyone lumps them together as the beneficiaries of centuries of oppression, genocide, and discrimination. Seriously, if you want to support racism, at least come up with some better arguments than that tired old song.
i would never support racism. me supporting that there is more black on black crime in youngstown is supporting the truth. i dont get your viewpoint at all. have a drink with me sometime and you will see i am not racist at all, but i am not ignorant either
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280 |
I find it interesting that NFL players live longer than average Americans...
yebat' Putin
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2nd String
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2nd String
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I don't think he was being racist when he made that statement.
I don't think he was trying to be.
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It would be like me saying if you're black, you're more likely to end up in jail. That's simply a fact. It's not racist to point out ugly facts.
Or like saying if your white, you're more likely to be a racist against blacks. See, by virtue of you being white, you're not more likely to be racist. You're who you are, regardless of how many others of your race behave. The fact we're talking about is that more blacks per capita are in jail. That is true. It's the conclusions we start drawing that are the seeds of racism. Conclusions like this, for example:
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But blacks are more likely, statistically, to be shot and killed at a young age, or to be jailed. And that has nothing to do with race -- it has to do with class. The poorer you are, the more likely you are to wind up dead or in jail at a young age.
First, I don't agree that it is just about class or wealth, although those are factors.
Second, and my point I'm trying to make, is that we don't say more lower middle class people are in jail, or more poor people are in jail. We say more black people are in jail. We equate black with being poor and low class, and we equate black with being more likely to commit a crime.
Further, even in poorer populations, more blacks per capita than whites are in jail. What's the conclusions we draw from that? Many end up being very racist, like, black culture is violent (hip hop), the black family isn't strong, blacks receive welfare and want to play the victim ie, not work. What we rarely want to examine is the other side of that racism, which is that blacks are perhaps in prison more because whites try to keep them down (opposing affirmative action, hiring them less, paying less, target them with bad home loans), cops target blacks, laws are skewed to be harsher on blacks, judges come down harder on blacks, and etc.
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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I'd like to see average life span of starters vs career backups.
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2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 295 |
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I'd like to see average life span of starters vs career backups.
How do you differentiate? For example, our starters are mostly career backups. 
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Legend
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OP
Legend
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I'd like to see average life span of starters vs career backups.
interesting thought though in the timeframe they are looking at, I do not think it would matter much. by all accounts, practices were full contact at the time and therefore most of the physical damage inflicted would actually be at practice (especially the cumulative things like head trauma).
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Legend
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I'd like to see it broken down by length of career.. I mean is a guy that hung around the league for 2 years counted the same as a guy that played almost every game for 14 years?
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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Legend
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First of all I'm perturbed that both Ytown and Haras agree in their original posts that this steryotype that the black NFL player doesn't come from a privelaged background is just a given.
Man the rest of this is just straigt up bull.
I can't, express my words conscisely enough to get my "Whole" point across, but there is just alot of wrong misconceptions.
but the one thing is, alot of people are HUrt by the things that go on thats called racism. and RACE is the one thing that nobody has any control over what they are.
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