DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns rookie minicamp and OTAs

If we are moving away from Cribbs, which I DON'T want and don't think will happen any time soon, we'd be trading him for some decent compensation. He's a BIG name w/ talent that a lot of offenses would love to utilize.

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I just want a winner.. don't know how many times I've said it,

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12,209

J/C

for those who are banging the drum of Weeden starting "RIGHT AWAY NO MATTER WHAT"

a QB should start when he is ready to start, not because of where he was drafted. plenty of examples of QBs who did not start "immediately" you might notice they are a good list of the top QBs in todays NFL:

Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Eli
Rivers
Roethlisburger - did not start game1, came in due to injury early in year
Carson Palmer - ok, but he was a top flight QB until he busted his knee

Elite QBs who did start from week1
Stafford
Peyton
Ryan
Cam Newton (we'll see if he continues to evolve, but for now)

excluding Carson who is no longer elite:

6 of the top10 QBs did not start week 1 of their rookie year
4 of the top10 QBs did

Weeden will have many advantages over most of the rookie QBs that were asked to play early. He should have a top flight OL and run game to support him. Defense we will see.

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So, basically, you don't want a competition, you want the job handed to Weeden..

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Yes. He's 29, was drafted in the first round and we already have an idea of what Colt can do. I wasn't crazy about the pick, but our FO felt that he was worth a first rounder. Any time we've had qb competition it's done nothing but create an ugly, distracting controversy that takes away from the job at hand. As young as this team is and the amount of learning that needs to be done....we absolutely don't need that.

Oo i agree 100%. We still have no idea how he will adapt to an actual pro style offense as well as being able to play against NFL speed.

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At 28 (29 during the season) He/We don't have time to allow him to gradually learn..

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That's the kind of ideology that is ultimately counter-productive to the ultimate goal.

You'd rush the kid through because of his age regardless of whether or not the most important....really, the ONLY important....question has been answered: Whether or not he's actually ready to play in the NFL.

I'm going to keep saying it in the hopes that people will get the concept:

Weeden won't be an NFL starter for 10 years in the NFL. The sooner people accept that as a fact, the sooner they'll get past the trigger which makes them panic, calling for him to start because of his age. When the mind is freed of that particular fear, then it can be accepted that he may or may not be ready as a rookie to start, and be brought along as a developmental QB if needed.

Stop and think about it...

Any team in their right mind would GLADLY trade a 1st round pick for a really good QB, even if that meant the QB would only play at a high level for 5-6 years. If a person can accept that reality, then they will be conditioned to accept the bigger reality, which is that it's perfectly acceptable to sit ANY QB for a season if it means he'll be ready to become that bonifide starter.

It's a huge gamble taking a guy this old with such a high pick. It's such a huge gamble in fact that it's never been made in the history of the NFL. Rushing Weeden through because of his age compounds the risk.

Play him if he's ready, not because he's old.

Gotta stop panicking people...

My big worry for the defense (well other than Taylor being injured), is the free safety. I hope someone can step up and push Young completely off the roster.

Young off the roster? That's not gonna happen. x10

He's one of my 4 targeted players to swarm on the Qb. He's one of the two to make me anticipate there could be a group of backups that are targeted pass rushers who can take a qb down the right way without penalty and without the qb escaping. He demonstrated this several times last season when he comes on a blitz with Gocong.

Young is even more important with the devastating loss of Mike Adams back, there at safety.

I'm on the same page as Schurmur. Cut Jordan Cameron, the guy needs to learn how to catch and how to make a positive play. Interesting that Schurmur said he's had a good offeseason and he will make big improvements. ( that means he's on the bubble ) .

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It's a huge gamble taking a guy this old with such a high pick. It's such a huge gamble in fact that it's never been made in the history of the NFL.

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Has the situation ever presented itself where this would have been possible before?

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then it can be accepted that he may or may not be ready as a rookie to start, and be brought along as a developmental QB if needed.

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Problem is, there is "absolutely" ready and "relatively" ready..... Absolutely ready means you are almost certain he will be able to have success.... Relatively ready is defined as being better than any other QB option... So what do you do if he looks better than Colt but still doesn't look 100% ready?

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You'd rush the kid through because of his age regardless of whether or not the most important....really, the ONLY important....question has been answered: Whether or not he's actually ready to play in the NFL.

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And you are guilty of putting words in my mouth... His timeline is different., hard to ignore that. he's older, he needs to learn faster.. that's an absolute fact. He pretty much has to do a Tom Brady.. (learning curve wise, not age)

But, I never said he had to be ready day one.. he just has to be quicker about it than a 22 year old.

What's really gonna be fun to watch around here is if he's not ready next season at all and Colt or Seneca win the job.

You have to admit,, we will have some very strong conversations around here should that be the case.....lol

DEFINE READY-

As in, trial by fire and throwing Weeden out there, or letting him hold the clipboard for a year. I kind of think of a Rookie QB as like a first time parent- NOBODY is ready, but oh well. You can read all the Dr. Spock books, take all the classes and be absolutely "prepared," but your never ready for the real situation until its presented.

I have NO problem giving Weeden the keys to the kingdom, provided he's allowed to make his mistakes and not looking over his shoulder to see if Shurmur has the hook out. I honestly don't see a scenario where McCoy or Wallace can show any better and earn the spot over him. Weeden is better than both of them- its his. Let him take the reigns and run.

Weeden is 28, but it is not like he has been playing football for the past ten years, so IMO he is just as fresh as a 22 year old QB. He has not taken a beating any longer than any other college QB. He is physically just as healthy as say Tannehill.

To me being 28 means squat. If he was a RB or reciever, or even a lineman, I think his age would matter. QBs don't take the pounding most players do. They are protected in practice, and to some degree even in games. A QB can play well into his late thirties, especially one that starts at 28.

Over the years there have been many QBs who have played at 35 or older, some until 40. I believe his age has no bearing on his development time. If he sits a year and starts at 30, I see no difference than if he sat at 22 and then played at 23.

To read some of the crap that has been said about the guy, you would think his legs will fall off in a couple years. I think it is foolish. Didn't Staubach start in his late 20's?

I think the only worry we should have about Weeden, is if he can play at this level, and quit worrying about how long he can play. If he fails, then it is all moot, but if he succeeds, and only then, should we think about how long he can play.

Roger Staubach
Height: 6-3 Weight: 197 Age: 70
Born: 2/5/1942 Cincinnati , OH
College: Navy
Experience: 11 Seasons
Hall of Fame Induction: 1985
TDS
153
INT
109
YDS
22,700
RTG
83.4
Profile Career Stats Game Logs
CAREER STATSMORE
Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
1979 Dallas Cowboys 16 -- 267 461 57.9 3,586 7.8 27 11 36 240 92.3 37 172 4.6 0 -- --
1978 Dallas Cowboys 15 -- 231 413 55.9 3,190 7.7 25 16 32 219 84.9 42 182 4.3 1 -- --
1977 Dallas Cowboys 14 -- 210 361 58.2 2,620 7.3 18 9 30 219 87.0 51 171 3.4 3 -- --
1976 Dallas Cowboys 14 -- 208 369 56.4 2,715 7.4 14 11 29 215 79.9 43 184 4.3 3 -- --
1975 Dallas Cowboys 13 -- 198 348 56.9 2,666 7.7 17 16 36 213 78.5 55 316 5.7 4 -- --
1974 Dallas Cowboys 14 -- 190 360 52.8 2,552 7.1 11 15 45 309 68.4 47 320 6.8 3 -- --
1973 Dallas Cowboys 14 -- 179 286 62.6 2,428 8.5 23 15 43 269 94.6 46 250 5.4 3 -- --
1972 Dallas Cowboys 4 -- 9 20 45.0 98 4.9 0 2 8 59 20.4 6 45 7.5 0 -- --
1971 Dallas Cowboys 13 -- 126 211 59.7 1,882 8.9 15 4 23 175 104.8 41 343 8.4 2 -- --
1970 Dallas Cowboys 8 -- 44 82 53.7 542 6.6 2 8 19 130 42.9 27 221 8.2 0 -- --
1969 Dallas Cowboys 6 -- 23 47 48.9 421 9.0 1 2 12 106 69.5 15 60 4.0 1 -- --
TOTAL 1,685 2,958 57.0 22,700 7.7 153 109 313 2,154 83.4 410 2,264 5.5 20 0 0

So Staubach started at 27. That's a couple years younger, but still late twenties. Now Weeden isn't Staubach, although it would be nice if he has a career like Roger, but my point is starting late is no big deal.

Thanks Shotty for the stats

Given the way that McCoy played last year, and the strengths that Weeden has as far as throwing the ball down the field, I find it almost incomprehensible that McCoy would be better in camp ..... but if he is significantly better, then he should start.

However, if it is at all close, then Weeden should start. Frankly, I don't think that it will be close. Weeden did all of the things in camp that I never saw out of McCoy as far as attacking down the field. I hope that he can bring that same ability to the field on Sundays.

Well, obviously.

However, when you look at the things for which Shurmur praised Weeden effusively, they are not McCoy's strengths by any stretch of the imagination. McCoy has decent short zone accuracy, and is decent throwing to a spot. He does not have the same ability as far as throwing to a receiver, anticipating where the receiver will be, hitting a receiver in motion, etc. McCoy has some strengths, but IMHO, just not enough to be an NFL starter.

Who knows .... maybe having the opportunity to sit and watch someone else play the position might help him in the long run.

You guys are beating a dead horse. The only way Weeden doesn't start is if he tears 4 ACLs and 13 MCLs. End of story.

Colts best chance to keep ANY job is to say and do the right things, keep working and hope he gets a chance to "compete". Maybe..just maybe, he gets a shot as a back up on another team or they like his salary and attitude better here than they do Senaca's.

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You guys are beating a dead horse. The only way Weeden doesn't start is if he tears 4 ACLs and 13 MCLs. End of story.

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There's something seriously weird about that boy if he has 4 ACLs and 13 MCLs....

So who looks the best of the new Wr's in camp?
And
Who looks like the best bet at nose tackle because of the Phil Taylor injury?
( They do have a nose, who lines up in the center over the center in some of their formations, in spite of running the 4-3.)

You aren't going to convince the Cherub lovers of that.



Weeden is going to have to look absolutely horrible to not get the nod, and he will anyway.



We didn't draft the guy to be groomed or wait his turn. His turn is now. We are going forward with him for 3 seasons, so people might as well get on board and get comfortable with it.

That Cherub crap is assine... you are better than trying to be a rome clone.....

He looks like a Cherub.


I've never seen Rome(the host), so I wouldn't know.



Wait, I did see Everett beat him in some clip, so I guess I have, but really, I've never watched the show. I think I have heard him on the radio a time or two.

Don't really see how Peen's comments could be construed as anything negative. He is saying McCoy has the face of an angel.

Back somewhat on topic here ..... I think that this can go here since it's kind of about impressions from rookie camp .....

Terry Pluto's Talkin' ... about the Browns' QB and offensive line plans, an NBA title favorite and the Tribe's left-field options | cleveland.com
http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2012/05/terry_plutos_talkin_about_the_50.html

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Minicamp is over, veteran camp hasn't begun, so we're talkin' ...

About the Browns and the QB competition ...

1. The Browns can call the set up of Brandon Weeden and Colt McCoy a competition. But it's not like 2009 when Eric Mangini had his staff counting preseason snaps to make sure Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson each had a fair chance. The Browns don't want to anoint Weeden the immediate starter simply because he was picked No. 22, or because he had a strong rookie weekend.

2. Weeden indeed was superb in rookie camp. One Browns football man told me, "He wasn't just accurate, he was ridiculously accurate. And his arm is strong." They had him under center more than 90 percent of the time. He had "zero" problems making the adjustment from the shotgun, which he used at Oklahoma State most of the time. Maybe this will change once people are being rushed and tackled, but the Browns went into rookie weekend with high expectations -- and Weeden exceeded them.

3. Weeden has the job to lose, even though the Browns don't say it. Can he lose it? Of course. He can gain 20 pounds. He can cop an attitude and stop working hard. He can act like a jerk around coaches and teammates. While the Browns would be shocked if that happened, they want to guard against it.

4. Also, the Browns want to let the veterans see both McCoy and Weeden in practice and scrimmages. Veterans need to realize the rookie has more talent so they can buy in, especially when it comes to quarterbacks. Weeden is bigger, stronger and throws a better ball than McCoy. That will be obvious. The players say NFL stands for Not For Long, and they want to win now. They will support anyone who helps them do that and make more money in the process.

5. The real issue is not "Have the Browns been fair to Colt? Wouldn't Colt be better with Trent Richardson and all the new players?" Of course having Richardson and improved blocking will help any quarterback. But the real question is, "What quarterback makes the team better -- Weeden or McCoy?"

6. While it's not all McCoy's fault, the Browns were 6-15 with him starting the last two years. This is not Bernie Kosar being benched after years of success. Teams with quarterbacks such as McCoy are usually looking for someone else to be that impact player behind center. The Browns are determined to learn if Weeden can be that guy.

7. Is McCoy a viable quarterback? Of course. He may play 10 years in the NFL, and have some periods where he starts. But his lack of size and history of injuries means durability is an issue. He was hurt in the title game for Texas, and injured in his first two years with the Browns. McCoy was emotionally and physically beat up by the end of last season. If he is your starter, you'll need a good backup.

8. Maybe the Browns will trade McCoy, but they seem in no hurry to do so. They like the idea of depth at quarterback, and assume McCoy will continue have a good attitude and work ethic. Also, quarterbacks in Cleveland get hurt. Only once (Tim Couch in 2001) has the same quarterback started all 16 games since the team returned in 1999.

About the Browns ...

1. They believe second-rounder Mitchell Schwartz will solve the right tackle spot, and fifth-rounder Ryan Miller can add depth at right tackle and guard. Both rookie linemen looked very promising. Between starting 51 games at California (35 at left tackle, 16 at right tackle) and having an older brother (Geoff Schwartz) in the NFL, Schwartz impressed as a guy ready to start. Some scouting services had him ranked as the top right tackle in the draft.

2. Suddenly, the top six offensive linemen are all 27 or younger -- Joe Thomas being the oldest. The key will be how fast this young line can blend. The good news is the Browns will be adding Schwartz to four others who started last season -- center Alex Mack, guards Shawn Lauvao and Jason Pinkston and Thomas at left tackle. Veterans John Greco (27) and Oniel Cousins (27) and the 22-year-old Miller are the backups.

3. Everyone knew Travis Benjamin was fast, but team officials were impressed by the receiver's hands. The fourth-rounder from Miami has a chance to play a lot, if his 172-pound frame can handle the physical part of the game.

4. Trent Richardson can't show his real stuff as a runner until tackling begins, but the Browns were extremely pleased with how he caught the ball. The running back in the West Coast offense needs to serve as a receiver, and the Browns want to keep Richardson on the field for most of the game.

5. The Browns are anxious to see Emmanuel Stephens, who beat out Jayme Mitchell for the starting spot at defensive end in Game 9 and had three starts before being injured. They think he brings depth to the line at defensive end. It seems the Browns are set there with Frostee Rucker, Juqua Parker and Jabaal Sheard, but they want depth.

6. Linemen do get hurt, as happened to Phil Taylor (pectoral injury). Maybe he will come back this season, maybe not. But the Browns can't count on him. They have Ahtyba Rubin at one tackle. They will look at rookies John Hughes and Billy Winn along with veterans Scott Paxson, Brian Shaefering and possibly Brian Stanford. They also plan to alternate players on the line more often this season than a year ago.

7. Pat Shurmur was excited by the performance of his coaching staff, especially adding Brad Childress. They will formulate game plans together. Childress will run offensive meetings. They say they will work on the play-calling together, Childress in the press box with Shurmur on the field. It seems Childress will often suggest plays with Shurmur making the final call.

I think I liked everything Pluto had to say.. hope it comes out that way. I'm optimistic.. Then again,, this time of year, I always am