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I'm not going to venture down the path of proclaiming that McCain would have been an economic savior but I would bet good money we'd have had a budget over the last three years.
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YT...I thought this thread was about " The Auto Bailout Revisited:"...
...Guess not 
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I'm not going to venture down the path of proclaiming that McCain would have been an economic savior but I would bet good money we'd have had a budget over the last three years.
Maybe,, maybe not. Point is, this country was heading down a path and McCain wasn't going to be able to stop it either.
Whoever was elected was in for a tough road no matter what.
Two things caused this: Clinton and his "everyone should own a home" garbage
And Bush with his ill thought out war.
take your pick as to which did most harm, but both killed us and cost us money, stability and lives.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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I believe he acted with few choices, none good. A lot of bad happened; a lot of worse options seem plausible. No help in restoring it since from the other party here in the Miami Valley since then. Tell me where to line up for the sanity check then. I am ready for something positive now from two parties. This King O stuff gets thin. But you seem to need it. I pray for America. I have known better days than these myself. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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How is that not "on the up-and-up"? They took out a legitimate loan, with collateral and payment terms.
Not a gift from the taxpayer's pocket with indefinite terms.
up and up as in ford was always doing well and didn't get a loan period. Each of the big 3 had huge problems in the 2000s, Ford just got hit earlier because they didn't have the mass fleet deals GM had or Mercedes towing the line in Chryslers case.
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Oh, just take your sensible, relevant information and run along home, Lenin! You're ruining the angry conservative circle-jerk!
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
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Bush and his ill thought out war.
You do understand that wars don't necessarily go as planned, right? You do understand that the u.s. currently fights wars in ways different than in years past, right?
Yes, the wars were expensive.
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Quote:
Bush and his ill thought out war.
You do understand that wars don't necessarily go as planned, right? You do understand that the u.s. currently fights wars in ways different than in years past, right?
Yes, the wars were expensive.
I'm certainly aware of all those issues. But all Bush was interested in was revenge and anyone with an ounce of brains knows that's not the right angle to come from.
Attack them,, sure, But damn it, find them first. WMD's,, Remember that fiasco? Hussain knew we were coming,, he got rid of the WMD's. (by the way, I'm absolutely sure they existed) But Bush and his entire plan was transparent.
of course, what I'm saying now is hind sight as in all fairness, after 9/11, I wanted the entire middle east turned into a glass parking lot. So I do understand his anger.
But when you are the President of the US, you can't afford to let those kinda things effect your actions. he did. dumb move.. And I say that knowing full well that I supported that war in the beginning.
I was wrong.
Do I Support the troops... you betcha. Do I Support the war, NO.. it was a mistake. A mistake that cost us Billions of dollars,, but to hell with the money,, it cost American lives. needlessly.
This should have been one surgical strike after another. They terrorize us,, we should have terriorized them in the same fashion.
They fully expected us to do what Russia did,, it bankrupted the USSR, it damn near did the same thing here (It still might)
#GMSTRONG
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Daman...I find it interesting that some want to complain about bailing out American car companies, which saved American jobs...yet they are silent when it comes to some "real spending"...like how much the Iraq War cost American taxpayers.
If you really care about the excessive spending of American taxpayer dollars, how can you forget the $4 TRILLION expenditure for the Iraq War...a war that proved not to be necessary.
This is an interesting article discussing the cost of our wars...
Iraq war ends with a $4 trillion IOU
Veterans’ health care costs to rise sharply over the next 40 years
December 15, 2011|Christopher Hinton, MarketWatch
WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — The nine-year-old Iraq war came to an official end on Thursday, but paying for it will continue for decades until U.S. taxpayers have shelled out an estimated $4 trillion.
Over a 50-year period, that comes to $80 billion annually.
Although that only represents about 1% of nation’s gross domestic product, it’s more than half of the national budget deficit. It’s also roughly equal to what the U.S. spends on the Department of Justice, Homeland Security and the Environmental Protection Agency combined each year.
Near the start of the war, the U.S. Defense Department estimated it would cost $50 billion to $80 billion. White House economic adviser Lawrence Lindsey was dismissed in 2002 after suggesting the price of invading and occupying Iraq could reach $200 billion.
“The direct costs for the war were about $800 billion, but the indirect costs, the costs you can’t easily see, that payoff will outlast you and me,” said Lawrence Korb, a senior fellow at American Progress, a Washington, D.C. think tank, and a former assistant secretary of defense under Ronald Reagan.
Those costs include interest payments on the billions borrowed to fund the war; the cost of maintaining military bases in Kuwait, Qatar and Bahrain to defend Iraq or reoccupy the country if the Baghdad government unravels; and the expense of using private security contractors to protect U.S. property in the country and to train Iraqi forces.
Caring for veterans, more than 2 million of them, could alone reach $1 trillion, according to Paul Rieckhoff, executive director of the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, in Congressional testimony in July.
Other experts said that was too conservative and anticipate twice that amount. The advance in medical technology has helped more soldiers survive battlefield injuries, but followup care can often last a lifetime and be costly.
More than 32,000 soldiers were wounded in Iraq, according to the U.S. Department of Defense. Add in Afghanistan and that number jumps to 47,000.
Altogether, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could cost the U.S. between $4 trillion and $6 trillion, more than half of which would be due to the fighting in Iraq, said Neta Crawford, a political science professor at Brown University.
Her numbers, which are backed by similar studies at Columbia and Harvard universities, estimate the U.S. has already spent $2 trillion on the wars after including debt interest and the higher cost of veterans’ disabilities.
The annual budget for the Department of Veterans Affairs has more than doubled since 2003 to a requested $132.2 billion for fiscal 2012. That amount is expected to rise sharply over the next four decades as lingering health problems for veterans become more serious as they grow older.
Costs for Vietnam veterans did not peak until 30 or 40 years after the end of the war, according to Todd Harrison, a defense budget analyst with the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments.
“We will have a vast overhang in domestic costs for caring for the wounded and covering retirement expenditure of the war fighters,” said Loren Thompson, a policy expert with the Lexington Institute. “The U.S. will continue to incur major costs for decades to come.”
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Final point...there were voices of decent within the Bush administration when it came to the need for War in Iraq...those voices were silenced by the Bush administration and the American people were fed a line of crap that was not true, but the propaganda sure as hell scared Americans, coming on the heels of the 911 attacks.
There were people in the Bush administration, besides Bush and Cheney that WANTED THE IRAQ WAR and would stop at nothing to get their Iraq War. These people were brought to Washington by President Elect Bush/Cheney and given jobs associated with the defense department.
The Iraq War was planned and those who planned it had no problem spending American taxpayer dollars on their agenda. Those who complain about spending American taxpayer dollars on the auto bailout..were..and still are..absolutely silent about the spending for that unnecessary war.
Some of those who planned and carried out the Iraq War are waiting to get back in power, because they have not completed their agenda, yet. Some who pushed for the Iraq War are now working as advisers to the man who is their ticket back power.
Daman...the Iraq War cost the Untied States trillions, not billions. Those who planned the Iraq War did not give a damn about how much of the American taxpayer's money they spent nor the cost in American soldiers lives.
Your point about the USA following the USSR done the path to bankruptcy might not be so far fetched. Can the United States afford the expense of another Iraq War, especially when we consider the Afghan War is not yet completed?
Spending on War is similar to an "iceberg"...7/8 of the total cost is not visible.
Those fretting about the cost of the US auto bailout need to be thinking in terms of the "trillions" of taxpayer dollars wasted rather than in terms of "billions".
...at least the USA auto industry is trying to repay their debt...we will never be repaid by Iraq or Afghanistan.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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And Obama said that he would have the troops out of Iraq within a year of taking office ..... so your point is ........?
As far as the auto bailout .... I don't think that it was necessary, and I do think that it was a huge "thank you" to the auto unions. If the bailout hadn't happened, then those plants (or even the entire company) would have been sold off to new owners (which is what happened anyway) their debts would have been discharged minus assets (well, many creditors and stockholders got screwed royally in the bankruptcy ... so ....) and a new GM would have gone forward ... under new management. Same with Chrysler. Oh yeah ... that's what happened ..... except that the union and their pension fund got moved to the front of the line of creditors. One other thing ............ I still want to know where the $40 billion we gave GM went. Why is to so hard to account for that large a sum of money? Does it still exist ..... or did pockets get lined with that taxpayer money?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Hmmm... I'm thinking that we should do the same math with the auto bailout money (and the wall street bailout money).
IF:
Iraq War REAL money = $800 B
With interest, etc... = they're claiming $4 T
So, using the same exact math:
Auto Bailout missing money = $40 B
With interest, etc... = actual cost of missing money is $200 B
actually, I really don't want to know the cost of the Wall Street stuff, because I got queasy just thinking about it...
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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A lot of the bank stuff has already been paid back. However, I'm sure that there is a substantial part of that money that has gone missing as well.
Of course, if I'm not mistaken, we still own stock in some banks, Citi and AIG come to mind off the top of my head.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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yt...your hatred of unions is noted...
...but if you are really concerned about spending, you need to think in terms of Trillions and whether the United States taxpayers are being paid back.
Many believe saving American car companies and over a million jobs was the wrong thing to do, even though the plan worked and the loans are being repaid and the jobs were saved.
Those same people who were against the American auto industry loans which saved an estimated 1 million American jobs ARE SILENT when the subject of spending American taxpayer dollars on the Iraq War is brought up.
The willingness of some to just excuse a 4 trillion dollar expense such as the Iraq War, I find remarkable and must be noted...obviously some are not the least bit concerned about wasteful spending.
YT...are the American auto companies repaying the taxpayers?
YT...how much has Iraq repaid of the money given to them?
Trillions spent on Iraq and none repaid...I guess the American taxpayers are going just eat that $4 trillion expense, right?
...maybe if we don't talk about it, everyone will forget...ya think?
What I see "ahead"... bothers me just as much as what happened when the American taxpayers were force fed the Iraq War...the American taxpayers are being setup to spend "trillions" more in the next few years, for the same product...another war.
The very same people who pushed for the Iraq War have already been rehired to perform their magic again...this time for Romney.
You say it can't happen again?
...it is already happening...you just don't realize it.
...but you have been told, so don't cry to me about spending when you turn a blind eye to the TRILLIONS of dollars that have been wasted and the TRILLIONS of dollars that are about to be wasted on another Iraq War.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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mac, the taxpayers can NEVER be repaid, because the GM stock will never hit the $60-80/share that it has to hit to repay the Treasury for the so-called loans.
As far as hating unions ..... yeah, I suppose I do. There are 2 reasons for this:
1) I believe that unions stop people from being the best they can be, because they eliminate individual performance incentives. Unions members get paid by grade and longevity, not by productivity.
2) There is a sense of entitlement in unions, Unions feel that they should take preference over everyone and everything else. This is especially true in the case of GM, which was driven into bankruptcy by the very unions you love so much. Public sector unions are even worse. Screw the taxpayers and their struggles .... we want ours, period. Contribute 10% to our incredible healthcare and pension? How inhumane! Give me a break. Unions believe that they are above non union workers. They believe that they are superior to the very people who pay their salaries. Yeah, I greatly dislike that attitude.
The Iraq war is a totally different animal. If it's so horrible, then why didn't Obama pull our troops out within a year of taking office as he promised?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Man .... now secret memos are coming out about Obamacare and secret deals made with drug companies regarding importation of prescription drugs ....... one of his Cabinet Secretaries just hit 2 people and has a hit and run, (although he may have had a medical issue) fast and Furious looks like a completely corrupt venture with massive cover up .... and the whole deal with the intelligence leaks makes Watergate look minor league by comparison. Thank goodness we have the most transparent administration in history, with an unrivaled standard of integrity .....  Oh ... and where did the $40 billion from bailing out GM go?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The Iraq war is a totally different animal. If it's so horrible, then why didn't Obama pull our troops out within a year of taking office as he promised?
Because he's an idiot?
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Oh ... and where did the $40 billion from bailing out GM go?
Probably funding new surveillance aircraft at Area 51.
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For a slight, further elaboration: because their boss is the same master.
Last edited by 4yikes2yoshi0; 06/11/12 02:46 PM.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
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A lot of the bank stuff has already been paid back. However, I'm sure that there is a substantial part of that money that has gone missing as well.
Of course, if I'm not mistaken, we still own stock in some banks, Citi and AIG come to mind off the top of my head.
Yeah, I think that's true..
As for the bail outs of the auto industry,, had to happen.. would have flattened the country for the next 20 years. it was tough enough without losing those jobs also.
Was it a thank you to unions,, I suppose. But either way, don't bail them out, let them fail was NEVER really an option.
#GMSTRONG
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As for the bail outs of the auto industry,, had to happen.. would have flattened the country for the next 20 years. it was tough enough without losing those jobs also.
How do you know that still won't happen? Bailouts were a stupid and short sighted decision. The government rewarded companies for failure. Now they can make alll the boneheaded decisions they want and then go crawling back to the government for another bailout. They'll say bail us out or we'll layoff people. The government will pay it.
I seem to recall major airlines filing for bankruptcy that are still around. To think that we had to bailout the auto industry or every job was going to disappear overnight was nothing but fear mongering.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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Quote:
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As for the bail outs of the auto industry,, had to happen.. would have flattened the country for the next 20 years. it was tough enough without losing those jobs also.
How do you know that still won't happen? Bailouts were a stupid and short sighted decision. The government rewarded companies for failure. Now they can make alll the boneheaded decisions they want and then go crawling back to the government for another bailout. They'll say bail us out or we'll layoff people. The government will pay it.
I seem to recall major airlines filing for bankruptcy that are still around. To think that we had to bailout the auto industry or every job was going to disappear overnight was nothing but fear mongering.
How do you know the war won't bring us down.. Sure enough took down the USSR..
Here is what I know.. hundreds of thousands of autoworkers would have lost thier jobs.. engineers, draftsmen, HR folks, accounting folks, purchasing folks NOT JUST UNION folks.
Hundreds of companies went out of business even with the bail out,, you could easily see where a couple of thousand more would have been destroyed. How many jobs would that have cost? I don't know, but probably another couple of hundred thousand. and that's just here in the US.
The Steel industry would have been devastated, auto glass manufacturing would have ground to a halt, Frame makers would have been crushed, injector makers would have been killed.. Hundreds of Auto Dealers went under, thousands more would have. that means Mechanics or techs as they call them today, salespeople, finance people.., Guys like our own good buddy GMdawg would end up having to find work again. Ask him what he thinks.
And the worst thing yet, we'd have been left with only Non Domestic cars to chose from. So profits go overseas as well.
You wanna call the bail out dumb.. Please feel free, but you will never get me to agree.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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mac, the taxpayers can NEVER be repaid, because the GM stock will never hit the $60-80/share that it has to hit to repay the Treasury for the so-called loans.
YT...how much has IRAQ paid back to the American taxpayers?
If you are a true conservative, you might want to start with those high dollar expenditures, like the TRILLIONS of dollars spent on the Iraq War...ya think?
You say, what can we do about it now?
....how about learning a lesson from the mistakes made in the past, so they don't happen again?
The very same people Bush jr hired to plan and carry out the Iraq War are now being hired by Romney...does that bother any "conservatives" ?
....as a taxpayer, are you concerned that history might be repeating itself with another multi Trillion dollar war being planned if Romney wins the election?
Do you even care enough to learn the names of the individuals who are planning the next Iraq War? There names are out there and you can even find out the job they had when they sold the Iraq War to the American people.
Most of these people failed at their Gov. job when they worked for Bush jr...but despite their work record, they are being rehired by Romney and will be rewarded with jobs in his administration, if he wins.
Before you talk to me about the billions lent to the American auto industry, that is being repaid...talk about the Trillions of dollars wasted on the Iraq War that will never be repaid. Talk to me about the cost of the next war which already in the planning stages by those now working for Romney...
What will the next war cost?
...10-20 thousand American soldiers lives?
...$8 trillion or more?
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Before you talk to me about the billions lent to the American auto industry, that is being repaid...talk about the Trillions of dollars wasted on the Iraq War that will never be repaid.
So, you're saying that because of something Bush did, we're not allowed to be critical of what Obama does?
"Progressive" thinking at it's finest. 
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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Once more mac, Iraq and GM are 2 completely different animals.
If the Iraq war was so horrible, then why didn't Obama end it when he took office, like he said he would?
Campaign promise: Have all of the troops out of Iraq by the end of 2009.
Was that the case?
Now, where did the $40 billion go? Why can't we examine one aspect of this administration without bringing up a different aspect?
Answer: Because you have no answers.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
Before you talk to me about the billions lent to the American auto industry, that is being repaid...talk about the Trillions of dollars wasted on the Iraq War that will never be repaid.
So, you're saying that because of something Bush did, we're not allowed to be critical of what Obama does?
"Progressive" thinking at it's finest.
Everyone should re-read prps post a few posts up. That's really interesting about the REAL money of the iraq war being $800 billion, but with interest they are saying 4 trillion.
Hmm.......interest is included in that one, but not the other expenditures?
Weird, isn't it? Kinda shoots mac's stance in the foot, and the other foot, and both knees.
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Iraq and GM are 2 completely different animals.
yt...who is on responsible for paying the costs of the Iraq War?
...ANSWER: the American taxpayers.
...who is responsible for paying for the auto bailouts, if the US auto companies do not repay the loans?
...ANSWER: the American taxpayers.
Whether we are talking about the Iraq War expenditures or the money spent to bailout the US auto companies, those responsible for paying off those debts..THE AMERICAN TAXPAYERS !!!!!
So why not look at the really big spending items first...those projects that cost the American taxpayers "TRILLIONS"...not the small stuff, such as the auto bailout, that is being repaid by the American car companies.
Why not focus on the 4 TRILLION, which is the latest estimated cost of the Iraq War ??
As a common sense American taxpayer, I'm concerned about the big ticket items such as the 4 TRILLION dollars our government spent on the Iraq War that is not being repaid by Iraq...not one cent. That $4 TRILLION bill was handed to the American taxpayers.
I would think that any taxpayer with a lick of common sense, would be interested in the "most costly expenditures" our government makes, that are in the TRILLIONS of dollars...such as the cost of the Iraq War.
This idea that the Iraq War spending and the auto bailout spending are different...needs to be explained so it can be understood...THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE when it comes to who is responsible for paying those bills...the American taxpayers are responsible for the debt rung up by our government.
The American taxpayers are responsible for paying off our country's debt, whether it be a 4 TRILLION dollar expendature for the Iraq War or any unpaid balance from the American bailout loans.
NOW, thinking ahead, just a few years...could the American taxpayers be put on the hook for another multi-TRILLION dollar war, more costly than Iraq?
The very same people who fed Americans a line of BCrap about the need for War in Iraq are now working for Mitt Romney. They will be repaid for their work in Romney's campaign with jobs in the Romney administration, should he win in Nov.
....do you wonder what kind of jobs these people will want?...they specialize in creating a line of BCrap to justify starting Wars...they are very good at what they do, lying about the need for WAR then handing the bill for their WAR to the American taxpayers.
The American taxpayers will be responsible for the TRILLIONS in cost of the next Iraq War, too... just as they are responsible for the TRILLIONS in cost of the last Iraq War and the auto bailout, should the bailout money not be repaid by the US auto companies.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Good, that's great mac... so be irate about both.
It is NOT an either/or situation.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Since when has anyone expected to get repaid for a war? It's not like we can invade Iraq then send them the bill, they didn't ask us to invade them.
On the other hand, GM requested the loans, and it was with the intent they would be repaid. Now the real question is, what was the time table for repayment?
To say they haven't repaid the loan, you have to know how long they were given to repay the loan. Just like your bank won't come to you 2 years into your mortgage and ask why you haven't paid it off yet.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Well ... why haven't the Japanese repaid us for rebuilding their country after WWII?
Regardless, Obama has been President for 3 years now. He could have done as he promised and pulled the troops out by the end of 2009. If he had wanted to, but he did not do so. He could have told Iraq that he was changing the terms of our assistance in rebuilding and such ..... however, he didn't. He followed the same course that he was so against during the campaign. If that course was so wrong, then why didn;t he change course and do what he promised to do when he was "Candidate Barrack Obama"?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Good, that's great mac... so be irate about both.
It is NOT an either/or situation.
prp...be irate about the American car industry repaying the loans that saved over a million American workers their jobs?
The very same folks that are irate over the loans to the American auto industry virtually ignore the spending for the Iraq War which no one is going to repay and that bill now stands at $4 trillion.
Anyone with a lick of common sense knows which transaction they should be irate about. Wasting 4 TRILLION dollars on an unnecessary war...then handing the bill for their fubar war to the American taxpayers to pay off, should be enough to make all Americans irate at those who hoodwinked them.
Now we are watching the very same people who brought us the Iraq War, being rehired by their party's leader, acting as his advisor on foreign affairs and defense matters.
Does that make any sense?...the people who were wrong on Iraq and Mitt Romney hires them as his advisors? What the hell is that about?
Do the Romney folks believe the American people are so stupid that we can't figure out what the foreign affairs/defense agenda will be when and if these people are back in power?
Did the American people not learn anything from past mistakes concerning unnecessary War and the cost of War in lives lost as well the financial expense to the American taxpayers ?
Those people will be rewarded with jobs in his administration, should he win in Nov. and then it's game on for the next Iraq War...Deja Vu.
But this time, there are no excuses for the American taxpayers...they can't claim they had no idea that our country would fight another multi Trillion dollar war that is not necessary...you have been warned.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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The auto bailouts saved 70,000 US jobs at GM. It saved about 55,000 jobs at Chrysler.
You assume one hell of a lot of downstream jobs for there to be a 10-1 ratio to jobs dependent upon GM jobs .......
I'll ask again ... if the Iraq war was so bad, why didn't Obama do what he said he was going to do and withdraw all of our troops by the end of 2009?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The very same folks that are irate over the loans to the American auto industry virtually ignore the spending for the Iraq War which no one is going to repay and that bill now stands at $4 trillion.
Anyone with a lick of common sense knows which transaction they should be irate about. Wasting 4 TRILLION dollars on an unnecessary war...then handing the bill for their fubar war to the American taxpayers to pay off, should be enough to make all Americans irate at those who hoodwinked them.
You know its funny mac because a lot of the people that will defend the auto bailouts to the end, will bash the banking bailouts, which, if you believe bailouts were the way to go, probably helped the economy as much or more than the auto bailouts....
yebat' Putin
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Our government - local, state, & National - all too often think that money will solve the problem...especially someone else's money. So they throw money at the problem with little planning and with the mindset that when THAT money runs out...we will just throw some more at it.
I don't see any deviation from this course anytime soon, either.
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I'll ask again ... if the Iraq war was so bad, why didn't Obama do what he said he was going to do and withdraw all of our troops by the end of 2009?
You've asked this question four times now, and I don't think I understand either your point or your logic.
The inherent logic in the argument is that Obama doesn't or isn't prone to making mistakes. The logical pattern of the questioning says that if Iraq was a mistake, Obama would've ended it.
However, knowing your opinion on the guy ... you think he makes mistakes left and right.
I don't really follow you here.
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I think the point is O hasn't done anything he ran on - other than health care.
Open administration? Farther from that than most presidents - perhaps all, as we're just finding things out now.
Tax cheats abound in his admin.
Unemployment went way up after his "must have now" q.e.
He uses his bully pulpit unwittingly and stupidly. (think "beer summit", trayvon...........etc.)
The apology tours he takes.
The fact that when he's not going global on apology tours, he's making an ass of this country with his speeches over seas.
Guantanomo
Basically, the only thing he's gotten right is his vacations. He seems to be good at that. Practice makes perfect, right?
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I think the point is O hasn't done anything he ran on - other than health care.
He ran a moderate, right-of-center campaign, and thus far has presided over a moderate, right-of center administration.
But, yes, most of his explicit promises have gone unfulfilled. But at the same time, he was rather two-faced, as well, so he'd promise the AFL-CIO people that he's pushing for a single payer system, and then turn around to another group and pitch the individual mandate. So he was a mixed bag all around.
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The fact that when he's not going global on apology tours, he's making an ass of this country with his speeches over seas.
My problem with those speeches were that he talked as if Europe were somehow better than the U.S., which was a mistake. Other than that ... he should've apologized for our actions. But there were much better ways to do it.
And I can't remember one instance where you cited Bush making an ass out of us overseas, which happened constantly.
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Basically, the only thing he's gotten right is his vacations. He seems to be good at that. Practice makes perfect, right?
Again, I can't remember you ever ripping on Bush for his extensive vacation time (which was ample).
It's never stopped being amusing, watching people defend one guy, and abhor the other, when outside of trivial differences, they've governed largely in step. Most of Obama's policies are extensions (or even expansions) of Bush's.
And for years, when I pointed out Bush's disastrous mistakes, you said 'Meh, you just hate Bush'. And now you're often up in arms about a guy who is more or less a Bush clone.
I sort of understand it ... but on a level I never will.
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I'm not up in arms about anything, or anyone, but thanks for caring.
The thread took a turn - I pointed out what I thought maybe ytown was talking about. No more, no less.
However, you, in your all knowing attitude, decided to bring Bush into it. Have at it.
You say you don't remember me mentioning Bush's vacations. Is that because most of them were him going to his house? All presidents take vacation - some just prefer to go home..........or to a family place - some prefer to go to Hawaii - with 2 different jets because apparently Michelle needed to get there a few hours earlier for some reason. Or her trip to Spain.............yup, I'm sure she needed that, with her entourage.
I'm sure you don't remember much of anything you don't want to remember. That's fine. History will be nice to O, make no mistake about it. Especially since he's the master of "It's not my fault", or "well, we found out things were much worse than we thought".........the guy is classless at best. He's got no class what so ever.
I do find it extremely interesting how his lack of military service isn't brought up. By anyone. Ever.
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Obama has been a major dissappointment to me personally.
I wanted two things..
I wanted the war ended and I wanted healthcare reform.
yes the war is winding down,, but it's not over yet. and I did get healthcare reform that did/will do, absolutely no good for anyone.
So in my eyes, he's let me down horribly.
He let Reid and Polosi run over him like a lawnmower and showed no backbone.
yet, here I sit, angry with the man I supported, and when I look at the alternative, he doesn't excite me either..
I feel like my choices are dumb and dumber (I'll let each of you decide which is which)
Personally, I think the american people are screwed either way.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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However, you, in your all knowing attitude, decided to bring Bush into it. Have at it.
I don't know how many times I've had to point this out to you over the years ... but I'm not all-knowing, nor do I claim to be.
And I brought Bush into it for two specific reasons -
1) It baffles me that folks who constantly defended Bush act like Obama is some radical disaster. They're pretty close to the same president (which, yes, is a complete disaster)
and
2) You were far and away the 'you just hate Bush' guy. That was your mantra. And, for the life of me, I can't see any other retort here than 'you just hate Obama'. I mean, you pick the guy apart for things that, when others picked Bush apart for, you defended with him eye rolls and a 'you just hate him'.
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You say you don't remember me mentioning Bush's vacations. Is that because most of them were him going to his house? All presidents take vacation - some just prefer to go home..........or to a family place - some prefer to go to Hawaii - with 2 different jets because apparently Michelle needed to get there a few hours earlier for some reason. Or her trip to Spain.............yup, I'm sure she needed that, with her entourage
I know you've said in the past that you don't listen to Limbaugh and the conservative talk show hosts much, so I've got to ask ... where did you come up with this nonsense?
When there was that erroneous report some time back about how expensive a trip the Obamas took, that some invented talking point about 'well, the Bushes didn't travel all over' came about, and I listed all of the foreign vacations both families had taken ... they were roughly the same rate.
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I do find it extremely interesting how his lack of military service isn't brought up. By anyone. Ever.
Why would it/should it be?
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