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Who have we had throwing the ball over the past 3 years?
Receivers cannot throw themselves the ball. It's hard to be productive as a receiver without a productive QB.
As much as seeing every one of the balls thrown to a guy, I think it would be interesting (and more revealing) to see him running patterns when the ball was thrown to someone else. Was he open? Did he run the pattern hard or did he pull a "Randy Moss" when he knew the ball wasn't coming his way. Doubt that kind of film is available to joe public but it would be quite revealing, not only about our wr's but also about the Qb.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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it is more than that, though... he could be open and not be the primary or secondary read. Only the coaches can realistically know how a player does on every play, but a large enough sample and even a fan can get an idea of good, bad, or indifferent.
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thanks for putting this together. norwood did really look pretty good in it. better than I remember him being.
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Then we drafted a guy I had never heard of (a couple times actually)
Hughes I had no recollection of but Benjamin I had seen several times and thought he might be worth signing as an undrafted. Hell I Saffold ranked higher than Benjamin, atleast Saffold could catch.
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Is the receiver running the right routes? Does he get open? Does he catch the ball when the pass is catchable? Does he adjust to poorly thrown balls? Does he see the ball all the way into his hands? Hoes he use his hands to catch the ball? Does he secure the ball easily, or does he struggle to put the ball away before making a most upfield? There are many others before you even look "just" at his catches.
As an answer to these points related to MoMass.
Right routes?... Don't have the film to be sure.
Get open?... C. I'm sure he does a fair amount but let's not act as though he's slippery or gets off the line with ease. He's average. At best.
Catch the catchable balls? I give him a C. The guy has the drops enough to make me miss Northcutt. Nuff said.
Adjusting to poorly thrown balls?... F. The guy is as soft as any WR I've ever seen.
Look the ball into hands?...C+. Again with the drops. CATCH THE FREAKIN BALL!!
Use his hands to catch?... B-. When he catches it he typically does a good job of not letting it get to his body.
Put the ball away?... B-. See the dropsies. Just catch the flippin ball Mass. Please!
So I'll give him a C. That's being generous in my mind.
I want more than a C playing as our #2.
Make all the excuses you want. Mo is a third rate, dime a dozen, receiver.
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Mo had 6 drops this season.. 6... for the bashing he gets about dropping balls.. 6 doesn't seem like a hole lot.
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He only played in 14 games in 2011. Yet still dropped 6 passes. One would have been a TD verses Miami.
He had 7 drops in 2009. Among the league leaders in said stat that year.
I can't seem to find his 2010 drop numbers.
His college scouting report is filled with talk about his poor hands. This problem isn't something I've invented to bash Mass with. It's his, and now the Browns', reality. We need an upgrade at the position. Period.
Don't even get me started at his lack of over all effort. Pathetic. DBs routinely out position him. Ugh. Sad. Infuriatingly sad. Jump ! Reach up! Act like you want the ball more than the DB. Dear God just act like you care!!!
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I disagree... I think our upside is middle ground. Just trying to be realistic. MoMass is our second-best receiver. He's not good. We all know that. We've seen him play three years now. If he can play at an average level and Little plays very well and our O-line and Richardson stay healthy and Weeden plays well for a rookie we can be average.
I really don't see a scenario with this group where they're very good.
I mostly agree Steve. After 3 years, MoMass is what he is. I'll say that possibly he became a bit disenfranchised with Colt as QB and possibly Weeden can change that a bit. I also read a bit where Holmgren went to the coaches and told them they need to start including people more often, as far as looks.....and he's right. I don't care if you are paid or not, if you are simply running route after route and never get a look, you lose interest, so when it finally comes your way, you are surprised. Every receiver, on every play except for specialty plays, needs to feel he is the #1 guy...."The ball is coming to me". Good QB's know this and find ways to keep players involved.
Norwood....a hope. Benjamin....a myth IMO....he's fast. I don't think he can catch. Little, I think he can be very good. He can catch enough, and know as a ex back he can run, so now it's a matter of getting him the ball where he can do both. He was the curl king of the NFL last year.
My high hopes are for Cooper. Maybe he and Weeden have that special magic...our own Welker or Amendola....less than fast or great athletes, but guys who have something with the QB tossing them the ball.
Why not?? He have had our Andre Kings and Darrin Cheverini's, so why not finally have a guy who goes from pauper to King??
Sooner or later it is going to happen, so it is pretty much later, no? 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I think I have the right to brag about being the 1st Norwood pimp on this board...here's what I wrote when he was promoted from the PS in December 2010: "Finally Norwood....he's better than Mitchell and Robo and while he's no starting option he can be as "productive" as Massa and Stuckey and I think even beter if given time....he was the best Penn St WR out of that draft...the other 2 got drafted in the 3rd round last draft...D.Williams is doing nothing in DET and Butler has 27 catches and 3 TDs for SEA....just give Norwood a chance" D.Williams is out of the league and Butler is very close...and another prediction gone my way   End of brag
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I'll say that possibly he became a bit disenfranchised with Colt as QB
It may have also come from getting his bell rung a few times as well.
But no,, it's colts fault.... 
#GMSTRONG
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I'll say that possibly he became a bit disenfranchised with Colt as QB
It may have also come from getting his bell rung a few times as well.
But no,, it's colts fault....
Did you watch some of Colt's throws?
Usually the QB is supposed to lead the WR open, not directly into a hit...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I'll say that possibly he became a bit disenfranchised with Colt as QB
It may have also come from getting his bell rung a few times as well.
But no,, it's colts fault....
That's a double edged sword ... As QB's can be come disenfranchised or lose confidence in a WR if he gives up on plays and allows the pass to be intercepted without attempting to catch it or prevent the DB from intercepting it.
It's a myth that Colt lead receivers into hits ... The ball simply does not get there very fast and DB's have more time to react.
Especially if the WR doesn't gain much separation or have proper positioning on the coverage.
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I think sooner is related to slim. 
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It's a myth that Colt lead receivers into hits ... The ball simply does not get there very fast and DB's have more time to react.
Especially if the WR doesn't gain much separation or have proper positioning on the coverage.
Did u really just use the word myth? cmon.. We all know Colt waits far too long to get the ball to the WR, and it turn they get their head rung. I've seen it happen to everyone of our receivers.
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It's a myth that Colt lead receivers into hits ... The ball simply does not get there very fast and DB's have more time to react.
Especially if the WR doesn't gain much separation or have proper positioning on the coverage.
Did u really just use the word myth? cmon.. We all know Colt waits far too long to get the ball to the WR, and it turn they get their head rung. I've seen it happen to everyone of our receivers.
Well then, we won't be seeing any receivers getting their bell rung with Weeden at qb. Strong arm and prolific accuracy. One person on here has even said he will be able to throw the ball to spots that get the receiver open even if they aren't.
The drops will be almost gone because of this superior ball placement - and we'll be seeing multiple 25 yd. plus passes (ball in the air 25 or more yards). We'll also see 10 yd passes that turn into 30 yd receptions due to the accuracy..
I guess we'll see. I will judge Weeden the same way I did Colt - meaning I'll be fair.
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Was it Mangini that picked this guy up?
I don't know....but I think JN is a viable slot guy. He shows good hands, enough moves to get some yac, and enough quickness to find some room in the secondary..
Only big weaknesses I see from him are his lack of breakaway speed (will get caught from behind.), and his tendency to commit stupid penalties like the unsportsmanlike-conduct call that he got for throwing ball in opposite teams' players face--I think he has done that more than once....
I really don't recall him having any problems with dropsies or anything....for a guy that caught on from the PS I believe, he can definitely find a role on this team.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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It's a myth that Colt lead receivers into hits ...
I recall multiple times where on curl routes, The WR would turn around, have to wait for the ball. And then when Colt DID throw it, instead of throwing it away from defenders, (or I don't know, directly to the WR) he'd lead the WR directly into a hit...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I'm in the process of making one for MoMass too.. but I'm missing one of his catches
Don't sweat it ... he missed more than one of his catches last year .. you're doing fine 
Seriously, nice work
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I'll say that possibly he became a bit disenfranchised with Colt as QB
It may have also come from getting his bell rung a few times as well.
But no,, it's colts fault....
Did you watch some of Colt's throws?
Usually the QB is supposed to lead the WR open, not directly into a hit...
Of course, it's all colts fault.... 
#GMSTRONG
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It's a myth that Colt lead receivers into hits ... The ball simply does not get there very fast and DB's have more time to react.
Especially if the WR doesn't gain much separation or have proper positioning on the coverage.
Did u really just use the word myth? cmon.. We all know Colt waits far too long to get the ball to the WR, and it turn they get their head rung. I've seen it happen to everyone of our receivers.
C'mon Colt wasn't out there playing sand lot ball ... They where all designed plays and if the timing was off on a play it was because he was flushed from the pocket due to inadequate protection.
Could he have been more accurate? You bet, but it's not like he was throwing to a different time zone or zip code on said plays. That's exaggeration at it's finest.
He simply lacks the velocity to squeeze the ball into a tightly defended receiver.
Btw if a receiver gets his bell rung in today's game,then it's because of an illegal hit.
Also it's the receivers duty to get open, by not being so mechanical running the routes. DB's watch film too.
What seems to be lost in this debate is the fact that Colt McCoy was not the only QB throwing passes to these same receivers the past couple of years and the results where no different and Wallace does have good velocity on his passes, Delhomme like Colt not so much.
PS ... nice work on the video.
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It's a myth that Colt lead receivers into hits ... The ball simply does not get there very fast and DB's have more time to react.
Especially if the WR doesn't gain much separation or have proper positioning on the coverage.
Did u really just use the word myth? cmon.. We all know Colt waits far too long to get the ball to the WR, and it turn they get their head rung. I've seen it happen to everyone of our receivers.
BS. It's just as likely our WRs were late getting where they needed to be. Also, this is the NFL. WRs get lit up all the time. It goes with the territory. 
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There's a difference between a receiver getting hit, and a receiver getting absolutely lit up.
Weeden had a throw that would have gotten his receiver absolutely lit up in camp, and the press said that if it were a real game, they probably would have had to stretcher the receiver off the field. Fortunately there haven't been many reports of such throws, but he still has to be aware not to get his receivers killed.
A QB has a lot to do with it when a receiver gets wiped out.The QB can make throws that protect the receiver, instead of putting him in peril. The receiver needs to be able to trust that his QB is not going to get him hurt, just like the QB needs to expect that the receiver will make the catch if he puts the ball in an appropriate spot.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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C'mon Colt wasn't out there playing sand lot ball ... They where all designed plays and if the timing was off on a play it was because he was flushed from the pocket due to inadequate protection.
Colt also got happy feet and prematurely left the pocket quite often....right into awaiting pass rushers. I thought the pass protection improved as the season went on....including the right side.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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It's a myth that Colt lead receivers into hits ... The ball simply does not get there very fast and DB's have more time to react.
Especially if the WR doesn't gain much separation or have proper positioning on the coverage.
So the fact that Colt can't lead his recievers because he doesn't undertand or compensate for his arm strength isn't his fault? When a WR has to stop or slow up to catch the ball, you're setting that WR up for a lot of punishment.
Now if you're saying Colts arm was so weak the ball hung in the air and took a long time to reach its target, whose fault would that be exactly? Certainly not that of the WR's.
So no matter who you attribute that too, it's not the fault of the WR's and it does make them take more punishment. Not only that, it limits their oppertunity for YAC.
So who wouldn't realisticly expect our WR's to be more productive if Weeden doesn't have these same issues?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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More agenda-driven BS. The receiver has just as much to do with it. If he's late getting where he needs to be, the timing of the play is off and he's liable to get lit up. My point is that when a WR gets destroyed on a play, it isn't necessarily on the QB (despite your assertions to the contrary). Sometimes the play worked fine on both ends and the receiver STILL gets crushed. In case you hadn't noticed, football IS a violent game.
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That could be part of it ..... but given that McCoy often held the ball long past what one would expect on quick hit passes, I doubt that all of the receivers were simultaneously late to their respective spots.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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C'mon Colt wasn't out there playing sand lot ball ... They where all designed plays and if the timing was off on a play it was because he was flushed from the pocket due to inadequate protection.
Colt also got happy feet and prematurely left the pocket quite often....right into awaiting pass rushers. I thought the pass protection improved as the season went on....including the right side.
Colt took a lot of big hits last season and I think that it was a combination of poor pass protection and bad OL protections and sight adjustments.
I don't think that his drops and or timing where that poor in spite of all the hits he had to endure.
He did telegraph his passes on many occasions and that never bodes well for a receiver, but sometimes a QB needs to put some mustard on the pass in order to beat the coverage and we all know that is not something he was gifted with.
The pass protection improved? Maybe so, but it was still inadequate imo.
A running game could have helped to keep the defense honest, but when your left with no threat to run, then that makes the defenses job that much easier. We are all familiar with the term "pinning their ears back". That really puts added pressure on your OL.
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There were many times where McCoy could have stepped up into the pocket, but instead tried to move laterally.
Part of that could have been to try and find a throwing lane, or just a lane he could see through. He is a guy who barely scrapes 6'1".
That's one reason why Matt Barely would have been the 3rd QB taken, at best, in last year's draft. Short WBs rarely succeed in the NFL. There are a couple of exceptions, and the exceptions prove the rule.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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That could be part of it ..... but given that McCoy often held the ball long past what one would expect on quick hit passes, I doubt that all of the receivers were simultaneously late to their respective spots.
I think that you are just making up stuff now. Firstly I don't think that he had the time to do so the majority of the time and if his first option was covered then he needs to move on to his next progression (something you and the rest of his critics say he doesn't do well), because your first option is not always open and that's not all on the QB.
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Colt's velocity is not the issue.. the issue is he doesn't throw the ball until AFTER the WR is open.
Case point.. a simple curl route.. our WR's have ran curl routes and won't receive the ball until about 2 secs after they turn around.. that's too long.
Case point.. a route through the middle of the field.. our WR's would get separation on the LB and Colt would wait too long to pass it.. by then the defense has adjusted and BAMMMM!!! as soon as the WR catches it they get rocked head on.
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That's a big part of it too. Good point.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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There were many times where McCoy could have stepped up into the pocket, but instead tried to move laterally.
Part of that could have been to try and find a throwing lane, or just a lane he could see through. He is a guy who barely scrapes 6'1".
True
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Your anti-McCoy bias is showing as usual. Were there times McCoy just didn't unload a ball when he should of? Sure. Were there times our receivers got jammed/knocked off their routes and were late getting to (if they ever arrived at all) their spot? Absolutely. Saw it with my own eyes. Every game (well, at least the home games were I could see the whole field).
Bottom line: getting crushed is an occupational hazard for NFL wideouts. Sometimes its the QB, sometimes its the WR and sometimes its just a tough hit by the defense.
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Colt's velocity is not the issue.. the issue is he doesn't throw the ball until AFTER the WR is open.
Case point.. a simple curl route.. our WR's have ran curl routes and won't receive the ball until about 2 secs after they turn around.. that's too long.
Case point.. a route through the middle of the field.. our WR's would get separation on the LB and Colt would wait too long to pass it.. by then the defense has adjusted and BAMMMM!!! as soon as the WR catches it they get rocked head on.
Do you know for certain that was his first read on said curl route (more often ran by a TE or RB)? As far as a drag route goes, you do need to wait until you have a throwing lane and the receiver is in that throwing lane. Perhaps there was not a throwing lane where the play was intended to go and in that case the receiver needs to continue on his route (not ending the route) to the next available window.
Imo some of you guys are over simplifying the total execution of the plays and conveniently and unjustly putting all of the blame on Colt McCoy for our receivers inadequacies and poor protection up front.
I understand that we would all like to think that it's as simple as replacing the QB, but he is not responsible for the execution of the other 10 players on a given play.
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In hockey... it's called a buddy pass. Not sure what it is called in football. But it is on the passer to know if the reciever is going to get killed. And Colt was the king of buddy passes. The reciever isn't open if he can't even make a move up field before he gets lit up. I'd drop passes on purpose if that's how my teammate protected me. Maybe that's the secret to why our WR will look better this year. They'll like and trust the QB more...
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In the WCO, the reads are really fairly simple for the QB.
Sight up the "hot" outside receiver, if he has single cover, he becomes the hot. If not he drops out of the progression.
The other receivers go 1-2-3. One of those receivers is likely open. (or has only single cover, which a good QB/WR cooperation will beat many times, especially against a S or LB)
The QB and receiver have to read zone or man, and adjust accordingly. Against zone, the receiver goes to a spot. Against man, the receiver runs a route though the zone. This is overly simplified, but it is the most basic of the basics in the WCO.
Go look at last year again, and really look. It was almost like McCoy gave up on looking at the outside routes. I think that it had as much to do with him being more comfortable throwing to a spot than throwing to a man. Unfortunately, the windows are smaller in the NFL, the defenders close faster, and defenses adjust much better to what a player does well, and what he struggles with.
McCoy was probably pressured less than many people think. I'm not saying that he didn't face pressure at all, all QBs do ..... but some of his pressure was of his own making by not moving up in the pocket when he could/should have, and preferring to roll out instead ....... and sometimes by flat out ignoring blatant corner blitzes. He also held the ball longer than he should have on quick hit plays.
I have repeatedly said that players can be evaluated on their own actions, regardless of what happens around them. It's obvious that the Browns feel that the OL is up and coming. They replaced one part, which was definitely a weakness at times. However, Wallace wasn't sacked 15 times in his 3 starts. He was sacked 6 times .... and that was against 3 of the better pass rush teams in the NFL. He was pressured once in a while, but he made appropriate moves, like sliding out away from the corner blitz to hit Little for a long TD pass.
I do not feel that this is a skill that McCoy possesses. Much like Charlie Frye, who was also "mobile", neither man seems to feel the rush very well, and both would break the pocket rather than stepping up when they were able to do so. That makes the line's job that much harder, because they are blocking to create a pocket, and suddenly the QB is 8 yards outside of the tackle box. Frye did the same thing. He got killed. The OL sucked. Anderson took over, and suddenly no one could get to DA.
The QB affects the OL as much as they affect him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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YTown. So We all know your hatred of McCoy. It's well documented. The question I now pose is are you defending Mo as a legit #2 WR? Looking at his body of work do you really feel we don't need to replace him? Are you not willing to admit his faults (which are many)?
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Hall of Famer
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In the WCO, the reads are really fairly simple for the QB.
Sight up the "hot" outside receiver, if he has single cover, he becomes the hot. If not he drops out of the progression.
The other receivers go 1-2-3. One of those receivers is likely open. (or has only single cover, which a good QB/WR cooperation will beat many times, especially against a S or LB)
The QB and receiver have to read zone or man, and adjust accordingly. Against zone, the receiver goes to a spot. Against man, the receiver runs a route though the zone. This is overly simplified, but it is the most basic of the basics in the WCO.
Go look at last year again, and really look. It was almost like McCoy gave up on looking at the outside routes. I think that it had as much to do with him being more comfortable throwing to a spot than throwing to a man. Unfortunately, the windows are smaller in the NFL, the defenders close faster, and defenses adjust much better to what a player does well, and what he struggles with.
McCoy was probably pressured less than many people think. I'm not saying that he didn't face pressure at all, all QBs do ..... but some of his pressure was of his own making by not moving up in the pocket when he could/should have, and preferring to roll out instead ....... and sometimes by flat out ignoring blatant corner blitzes. He also held the ball longer than he should have on quick hit plays.
I have repeatedly said that players can be evaluated on their own actions, regardless of what happens around them. It's obvious that the Browns feel that the OL is up and coming. They replaced one part, which was definitely a weakness at times. However, Wallace wasn't sacked 15 times in his 3 starts. He was sacked 6 times .... and that was against 3 of the better pass rush teams in the NFL. He was pressured once in a while, but he made appropriate moves, like sliding out away from the corner blitz to hit Little for a long TD pass.
I do not feel that this is a skill that McCoy possesses. Much like Charlie Frye, who was also "mobile", neither man seems to feel the rush very well, and both would break the pocket rather than stepping up when they were able to do so. That makes the line's job that much harder, because they are blocking to create a pocket, and suddenly the QB is 8 yards outside of the tackle box. Frye did the same thing. He got killed. The OL sucked. Anderson took over, and suddenly no one could get to DA.
The QB affects the OL as much as they affect him.
No need to explain the WCO to me ytown. Your preaching to the choir.
Yes there where times I felt like Colt needed to step up in the pocket, but in his defense much of the pressure he received last year was up the middle regardless of how few sacks Pinkston allowed he was beaten like a drum early on and that is very detrimental to a QB when he doesn't trust the middle of his OL.
Every QB is different and the (every) OL has to adjust to that. It was no big secret that Colt likes to move to his right to try and extend the play. The defenses where aware of this too and many times only had to cover a quarter of the field. It became very predictable. That's why I think Matt Moore is underrated as a QB, because even though he is not the strongest armed or most accurate QB. He can pass moving to both sides equally well.
Did he ignore a CB blitz? If it's from the right side then he is expected to make that player miss, because he is the only player responsible for that blitzer unless he changes the protection and moves his RB/FB over. If it's from the blind side you would like your QB to have an innate ability to feel that pressure and have an internal time clock in his head, but the truth is that sometimes the QB doesn't expect it and that's where communication from his teammates comes into the picture.
Last edited by FL_Dawg; 06/21/12 01:11 PM.
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Legend
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It's a myth that Colt lead receivers into hits ... The ball simply does not get there very fast and DB's have more time to react.
Especially if the WR doesn't gain much separation or have proper positioning on the coverage.
Did u really just use the word myth? cmon.. We all know Colt waits far too long to get the ball to the WR, and it turn they get their head rung. I've seen it happen to everyone of our receivers.
BS. It's just as likely our WRs were late getting where they needed to be. Also, this is the NFL. WRs get lit up all the time. It goes with the territory.
On 31 other teams that's true, on the Browns, it's Colts fault
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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Was it Mangini that picked this guy up?
Heckert....who knew him from the Philly's PS
#gmstrong
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