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The SCOTUS is expected to release their ruling in about an hour. I'm interested to see how this turns out. I've read many things to potentially expect a 6 v. 3 ruling in favor and that 19 out of 21 constitutional lawyers found it to be constitutional.
I do believe this needs to become a reality in America, that being universal healthcare, as many other nations do it. It's sad that we can't provide for our own but are willing to go bomb a foreign nation at a moments notice.
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It's always hard to say how the court will rule. I see both sides of the argument. I just have deep reservations about the government mandating individuals buying a product or service.
You have your two wings of justices where it is easy to predict how they will vote. Kennedy and Roberts seem to be moderate and make it hard to say how they are going.
Kennedy was assigned by Roberts to write the majority opinion on the immigration reform law in Arizona...a big assignment. One that will be read for years to come. Speculation is Roberts will write this one, so it seems to me Roberts and Kennedy are in the same boat. Which boat? We'll find out in a few minutes.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I definitely agree with you about mandates and all. But, I think the government has to have a social responsibility for it's citizens. If it means we have to buy something in order to improve our well being, then so be it.
There's been speculation that Roberts feels horrible over the Citizens United decision. I think that came to light in the Arizona ruling and I have a feeling it will happen today, as well.
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I do believe this needs to become a reality in America, that being universal healthcare, as many other nations do it. It's sad that we can't provide for our own but are willing to go bomb a foreign nation at a moments notice.
Valid feelings and opinions, but none of that has any bearing whatsoever on the topic.
I'm ok with Universal Healthcare if it's done right. The abomination we have is NOT that, and the argument of "well, it's something" is completely invalid.
We need better public transportation, too..... we need a grand infrastructure to make it work. Mandating that everyone would have to go buy a bicycle would be "something", but it would NOT be the right solution, and it would be stupid.
I cannot tell you how much that I'm hoping that this thing is found unconstitutional.
There is, however, nearly zero chance that it is - I'm certain that wheels are being greased left and right on this to ram it into the heart of America.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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If it means we have to buy something in order to improve our well being, then so be it.
That very statement shows the danger in all of this. Where does this end, and who decides what actually improves our well being? How far do they take telling us what we have to buy and not buy for our own good? I could not be more against that type of thing.
I can tell you right now that what the Obama administration has thrown out there healthcare wise is not an improvement. This is far more complicated than just throwing out the statement that we should "take care" of our people.
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The state has to show this is indeed special and unique and can't be applied at will. I mean, we are all forced in to social security....well, except for the people forcing us in to the program.  I would rather see a mandate, but then have each state manage how it is carried out. I can see this turning in to one big mess in a hurry. Whatever we are told it will cost...double in inside of 3 years. I really wish a department of welfare was established and every program that aids social services for our citizens was managed through it. As it is, the dollars are spread out all over the place and I don't think anybody knows exactly how much money we are spending on social programs. Food stamps as an example is budgeted through the Ag. Dept.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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My guess is they will strike the whole thing down. I won't necessarily agree with it, but there's a reason we have checks and balances.
The problem I have is that I think most people don't have a problem with a lot of the law. It's really just the mandate that really gets people upset (and I understand why).
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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That very statement shows the danger in all of this. Where does this end, and who decides what actually improves our well being? How far do they take telling us what we have to buy and not buy for our own good?
Yeah, it's a bit of a slippery slope. I'd imagine smoking, alcohol, caffine products, and anything else would most likely come under fire. Might be some odd mandated exercise regiment, too.
It ultimately falls down to keeping freedoms while trying to provide for citizens.
And to Peen...
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I really wish a department of welfare was established and every program that aids social services for our citizens was managed through it. As it is, the dollars are spread out all over the place and I don't think anybody knows exactly how much money we are spending on social programs. Food stamps as an example is budgeted through the Ag. Dept.
I could definitely get behind this. The whole thing would be more centralized and potentially allow for better programs and such to be enacted. Only problem is the big government crowd would be up in arms.
Last edited by RocketOptimist; 06/28/12 09:57 AM.
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Quote:
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That very statement shows the danger in all of this. Where does this end, and who decides what actually improves our well being? How far do they take telling us what we have to buy and not buy for our own good?
Yeah, it's a bit of a slippery slope. I'd imagine smoking, alcohol, caffine products, and anything else would most likely come under fire. Might be some odd mandated exercise regiment, too.
It ultimately falls down to keeping freedoms while trying to provide for citizens.
Why not? I mean, it works in China, right?
Every time a mandate of any kind is made, a freedom dies.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Woah, mandate survives as a tax?
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CNN is saying the mandate was struck down.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Mandate was basically struck down but upheld under a tax. Roberts apparently saved this.
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This abomination will survive, but not under the commerce clause, but as a tax. Congress has a right to raise taxes, so the act is Constitutional as a tax.  Unfortunately, that's probably the correct decision. We need to elect Romney now to get rid of this disaster. I bet that we hear a LOT about the tax aspect, especially since we were told that it's not a tax.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Mandate was basically struck down but upheld under a tax. Roberts apparently saved this.
So, wait.... so... as-is, it was struck down, right?
Because the thing the way it is now is NOT a tax. It'd have to be re-written and re-pass vote to be a tax, correct?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Quote:
Mandate was basically struck down but upheld under a tax. Roberts apparently saved this.
So, wait.... so... as-is, it was struck down, right?
Because the thing the way it is now is NOT a tax. It'd have to be re-written and re-pass vote to be a tax, correct?
Nope. It's a tax, so it's Constitutional under that basis.
However, as a tax, this is a HUGE TAX INCREASE by the Obama administration, and the Republicans better hammer the Democrats over this massive tax increase. .
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'm looking forward to reading the opinion.
Now, if it was truly all upheld, does that give a "boost" to Obama or the GOP? Obama can say "told you so" and the GOP can say "now we have to spend even more to make sure we win."
But, then again, I don't know anyone whose vote really hinged on this, though I'm sure there are some out there.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Hell, this will destroy businesses and jobs. This is a massive tax on businesses.
Want to expand employment ..... too bad. No one is going to spend more just to hire people when the cost of their payrolls will increase tremendously.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Also, it looks like the Medicaid provision was ruled Unconstitutional ...... so states do not have to expand their Medicaid rolls.
As a tax, this is a very strange tax. It only applies if you don't have insurance ..... and that's the one area where it could have been Unconstitutional in my opinion.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I have read quite a bit on this issue this year, I still feel like I don't understand it all.
If this stands as--as a tax. Oh God we are screwed. Who is getting taxed here?
Everyone?
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Mandate was basically struck down but upheld under a tax. Roberts apparently saved this.
So, wait.... so... as-is, it was struck down, right?
Because the thing the way it is now is NOT a tax. It'd have to be re-written and re-pass vote to be a tax, correct?
Nope. It's a tax, so it's Constitutional under that basis.
However, as a tax, this is a HUGE TAX INCREASE by the Obama administration, and the Republicans better hammer the Democrats over this massive tax increase. .
I think that wheels were definitely greased on this one.
They KNOW it wasn't consitutional, so they just decided to call it something else to B.S. it. It was not written as a tax - it was written as a required PURCHASE.
Taxes are collected by the Govt, NOT paid directly to a private institution in the form of a required purchase of goods.
This whole thing is a crock, and the SCOTUS has their heads in their asses on this one.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Everyone who either doesn't have insurance, or is an employer and has more than 50 employees. Those employers will either be forced to provide insurance, or pay a sizable tax for each and every employee.
So ..... let's say a McDonalds franchisee has 500 employees in all of their restaurants. They either have to provide insurance, or pay the penalty. of $2000 per full time employee.
Either that or we'll see every employer cut every employee back to part time employment so that they don't have to pay the tax.
This is going to be a mess. The Medicaid provision is Unconstitutional .... so the federal government can't force states to cover "everyone" with Medicaid ..... and I believe that the exchanges were also found Unconstitutional.
What a mess. The only certain thing ..... is that taxes go up. Yea.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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As I am reading this do I have this right?
Obama and Congress passes a law that says you have to buy insurance
SCOTUS says no, don't buy it, tax them and give them the insurance.
If correct how can the Court change the law. Either it stands as is or falls as is. They are basically rewriting the law right?
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Quote:
I have read quite a bit on this issue this year, I still feel like I don't understand it all.
If this stands as--as a tax. Oh God we are screwed. Who is getting taxed here?
Everyone?
The "rich" of course; in other words, anyone with a job.
The stock market is taking the news well 
This sucks - I feel sorry for my son. This country is screwed.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Mandate was basically struck down but upheld under a tax. Roberts apparently saved this.
So, wait.... so... as-is, it was struck down, right?
Because the thing the way it is now is NOT a tax. It'd have to be re-written and re-pass vote to be a tax, correct?
Nope. It's a tax, so it's Constitutional under that basis.
However, as a tax, this is a HUGE TAX INCREASE by the Obama administration, and the Republicans better hammer the Democrats over this massive tax increase. .
I think that wheels were definitely greased on this one.
They KNOW it wasn't consitutional, so they just decided to call it something else to B.S. it. It was not written as a tax - it was written as a required PURCHASE.
Taxes are collected by the Govt, NOT paid directly to a private institution in the form of a required purchase of goods.
This whole thing is a crock, and the SCOTUS has their heads in their asses on this one.
The argument is that either an employer provides insurance, or pays the tax. A private individual either gets insurance, or pays a tax.
This is about the worst way this could have gone. This is a cluster .........
However, it's possible that states can opt out with the parts that were found Unconstitutional.
What a freakin' mess.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
As I am reading this do I have this right?
Obama and Congress passes a law that says you have to buy insurance
SCOTUS says no, don't buy it, tax them and give them the insurance.
If correct how can the Court change the law. Either it stands as is or falls as is. They are basically rewriting the law right?
As I understand it, the politicians stated that the penalties were not a tax ...... but the lawyers argued, in court, that it was a tax. As a tax, the Supreme Court found it Constitutional.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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J/C
Apparently, you either take the insurance or you pay the tax. In my opinion, granted my limited legal knowledge, it's basically social security but with healthcare. Except you don't have to pay the tax if you take the government plan.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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Mandate was basically struck down but upheld under a tax. Roberts apparently saved this.
So, wait.... so... as-is, it was struck down, right?
Because the thing the way it is now is NOT a tax. It'd have to be re-written and re-pass vote to be a tax, correct?
Nope. It's a tax, so it's Constitutional under that basis.
However, as a tax, this is a HUGE TAX INCREASE by the Obama administration, and the Republicans better hammer the Democrats over this massive tax increase. .
I think that wheels were definitely greased on this one.
They KNOW it wasn't consitutional, so they just decided to call it something else to B.S. it. It was not written as a tax - it was written as a required PURCHASE.
Taxes are collected by the Govt, NOT paid directly to a private institution in the form of a required purchase of goods.
This whole thing is a crock, and the SCOTUS has their heads in their asses on this one.
The argument is that either an employer provides insurance, or pays the tax. A private individual either gets insurance, or pays a tax.
This is about the worst way this could have gone. This is a cluster .........
However, it's possible that states can opt out with the parts that were found Unconstitutional.
What a freakin' mess.
That is NOT a tax - that is a FINE.
This is a complete load of crap.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Technically speaking the title of this thread is not correct.
The law passed is not Universal Healthcare and is nowhere near close to it.
Universal Healthcare is more commonly presented as "Medicare for all"
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!…. That did not age well.
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Quote:
J/C
Apparently, you either take the insurance or you pay the tax. In my opinion, granted my limited legal knowledge, it's basically social security but with healthcare. Except you don't have to pay the tax if you take the government plan.
That's not exactly right.
If you fall within certain income limits, you might get some assistance to help pay for your premium. If you get insurance through your employer, then nothing will change for you ..... right now. However, if an employer can dump you and pay the $2000 tax and get away cheaper, certainly many employers will.
One thing is certain, anyone looking for full time work is going to find it very difficult to find work. Employers who did not provide their full time employees with insurance will either have to now provide insurance, or pay the $2000 per employee tax.
That will definitely affect employment. It could even cause some employers of more than 50 employees,and that do not provide insurance, will almost certainly have to cut employees.
I bet that unemployment hits 9% by the time the elections roll around. No one is going to add employees when it will cost them even more.
Further, Obama exploded the deficit in just 3 years. He was just getting started.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Mandate was basically struck down but upheld under a tax. Roberts apparently saved this.
So, wait.... so... as-is, it was struck down, right?
Because the thing the way it is now is NOT a tax. It'd have to be re-written and re-pass vote to be a tax, correct?
Nope. It's a tax, so it's Constitutional under that basis.
However, as a tax, this is a HUGE TAX INCREASE by the Obama administration, and the Republicans better hammer the Democrats over this massive tax increase. .
I think that wheels were definitely greased on this one.
They KNOW it wasn't consitutional, so they just decided to call it something else to B.S. it. It was not written as a tax - it was written as a required PURCHASE.
Taxes are collected by the Govt, NOT paid directly to a private institution in the form of a required purchase of goods.
This whole thing is a crock, and the SCOTUS has their heads in their asses on this one.
The argument is that either an employer provides insurance, or pays the tax. A private individual either gets insurance, or pays a tax.
This is about the worst way this could have gone. This is a cluster .........
However, it's possible that states can opt out with the parts that were found Unconstitutional.
What a freakin' mess.
That is NOT a tax - that is a FINE.
This is a complete load of crap.
Yep .... but it's now a tax.
Obama has pushed through one of the largest tax increases in history already ..... and he still wants more in the form if income tax increases.
Yea. Let's tax ourselves out of existence.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
One thing is certain, anyone looking for full time work is going to find it very difficult to find work. Employers who did not provide their full time employees with insurance will either have to now provide insurance, or pay the $2000 per employee tax.
Don't most full-time employers provide health care coverage?
Shortly after we moved to Austin, my wife was working as a cashier at a barbecue restaurant here in Austin and they offered medical insurance.
Last edited by CleveSteve; 06/28/12 10:58 AM.
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Quote:
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One thing is certain, anyone looking for full time work is going to find it very difficult to find work. Employers who did not provide their full time employees with insurance will either have to now provide insurance, or pay the $2000 per employee tax.
Don't most full-time employers provide health care coverage?
Does McDonalds? WalMart? K Mart? Do construction jobs? Gas stations?
I don't know. If they do, I doubt that they provide the level of coverage demanded by the ACA. If forced to do so, employers may have no choice but to cut employment numbers.
When I managed for McDonalds, they offered a buy in plan for their employees that was a very limited insurance program, with limited benefits, but that would get someone into the hospital in the case of an emergency. Now they can no longer offer those, and instead they must either give their full time employees insurance, or pay the per employee penalty. (TAX)
When I managed for Wendy's, my franchise offered full time employees insurance and 401K .. obviously paid by the employee. (IIRC, Wendy's kicked in 25% of the premium for regular full time employees)
Now such employers will have to either provide insurance, or pay the penalty. (TAX)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Here's what McD's website says about it... http://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en/careers/benefits.htmlRestaurant Crew Benefits You don’t have to achieve upper-level management status to reap the rewards. When you’re a part of our restaurant crew, you’ll enjoy a competitive wage, a schedule that fits your needs, a team that’s there to support you in every way, and a workplace that’s close to wherever you need to be. It’s a great way to earn extra income for anyone, from students to moms and dads. Competitive wages Free uniforms* Free or discounted meals Flexible hours Medical insurance*
Prescription drug coverage*
24-hour nurse line access
Vision discount*
Available dental*Additional Benefits Short-term disability* Term life insurance* 401(k)* Paid holidays* Vacation* Educational assistance* *Subject to availability and certain eligibility requirements and restrictions. Talk to your local franchise owner or restaurant manager to learn more. Of course, the Vonnegut hole (*) is the kicker. Probably a "you have to work here for 6 months before you're eligible" kind of thing. *edit* as far as construction jobs, my wife's father had medical insurance through the carpenter's union IIRC. I can check with her when I get home if you're actually interested.
Last edited by CleveSteve; 06/28/12 11:13 AM.
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Quote:
Yeah, it's a bit of a slippery slope. I'd imagine smoking, alcohol, caffine products, and anything else would most likely come under fire. Might be some odd mandated exercise regiment, too.
It ultimately falls down to keeping freedoms while trying to provide for citizens.
Trying to provide what? A life free of temptation to eat, drink, snort, smoke, watch, play or sleep with the wrong thing because it's bad for you? YEA AMERICA, LAND OF THE SHEEP!!!!
yebat' Putin
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"To go beyond that, and to say the failure to grow wheat (which is not an economic activity, or any activityat all) nonetheless affects commerce and therefore can befederally regulated, ****is to make mere breathing in and out the basis for federal prescription and to extend federal power to virtually all human activity.***"
--Dissent from Justice Alito
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,980 |
The medical insurance that McDonalds used to offer was a very limited plan. I don't know if they still offer that particular plan or not. It was rather reasonable, like $50 per pay IIRC.
Now, what if their insurance is $400 for an employee ..... and/or $600 with a family? Can a full time hourly employee at McDonalds afford that?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 81
Rookie
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Rookie
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 81 |
John Roberts, you are a jerk. I am deeply sorry for supporting you when Bush nominated you in 2005. I hope you are happy with this.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,246
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,246 |
I am left now to wonder if Roberts purposefully argued his case the way he did to FORCE Congress to act in repealing/amending that portion of the law.
It was a bad idea made totally worse by this decision.
And still, for the life of me I can't understand how a justice can rewrite a law like this.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,980
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,980 |
The government lawyers argued that the penalties were, indeed, a tax. Congress has a right to tax.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,559
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,559 |
The whole thing is pretty hilarious. This was a purely REPUBLICAN idea but all republicans have to be against it since Obama stole the idea from Hilary who stole the idea from Newt who stole the idea from Richard Nixon. When this was Newt's idea Democrats hated the idea. Now its Obama care and Republicans hate it.
As for the constitutionality of Bill, I agree with it. I felt from day 1 it would be upheld because it is nothing more than a tax. Everytime the goverment spends a penny of our tax money well we are forced to buy that item. Whether it is buying protection in having a military or buying new chairs for congress or even abortions at a free clinic, we are paying for it and paying for insurance is the same thing. We may or may not like it but it is legal.
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Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Universal Healthcare Ruling at
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