DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum "These guys suck .. errrr don't suck so bad ......."

OK, let's talk OL, scheme, QBs and "the OL sucks" mentality.

In 2005, Drew Bledsoe was sacked 49 times in less than 500 pass attempts. That's almost once every 10 attempts. Their line sucked.

2006 rolls around, and Drew Bledsoe is just getting killed behind the Dallas line. 169 pass attempts and 16 sacks. Wow! Dallas' line sure sucks. They haven't improved one bit. Poor Drew is getting beaten to death back there.

Today, if you ask most people, Dallas has "twice the line we do" ....... now, with Romo under Center. Earlier this year .... they "sucked". Bledsoe was sacked and pressured relentlessly. Their "line sucks and needs blown up".(sound familiar?) Bledsoe gets benched, supposedly because of Romo's "mobility", but is that why he's been sacked half the times despite more passing attempts? It might have a little to do with it, but 19 rushes for 34 yards doesn't imply an impact runner at QB for the Cowboys. Bledsoe actually had 8 runs for 28 yards. OK, so if it's not mobility, then why the increase in QB effeciency? Maybe they're throwing shorter? Well, Bledsoe averaged 6.89 yards/attempt. Romo is averaging an ungodly 9.2 yards/atttempt. <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Maybe Romo isn't completeing as many passes as Bledsoe did? Nope .... Bledsoe 53.3% to Romo's damn near 70%

OK .. so why did Dallas' line "suddenly" turn it around and become a solid unit? What caused them to go from "they suck!" throughout 2005 and into 2006, to becoming a really solid unit in the past 6 games?

2 words: decision making

Again, you use half the info. 4 of Romos 5 TDs were 7 yards or less on Thanksgiving. - now look at his 9 YPA that you have. Yep, TO and Glenn are awful after the catch. Romo is using a lot of 3 step drop, Frye is not.

VS. Giants - 59 yds rushing, loss - 2 TDs and 3 ints
VS. Carolina - 142 yds rushing from RBs - 1 TD and 1int
VS. Wash - 128 yds rushing - 2TDs 0 ints
VS. Arizona (lol, Arizona) 110 yds rushing 2TDs 0ints
VS. Indy 114 yds rushing - 0TDs 1int
VS. TB 123 yds rushing 5 TDs and 0 ints (TD passes - 30yds, 2, 1, 2, 7)

1 definite playoff team and 2 that may make it - against those teams, 3 TDs and 5ints (3 good teams - 3TDs 5 ints) Only 1 game under 100 yds rushing.

9 of our 11 games have been against teams as good as, if not better than, the 3 best he's played. - 50% of Romos games are against garbage teams. Frye has played truly only 1 garbage team this year. Think that may have something to do with it?

We shall ignore the fact that the Cowboys is an all around good team and Drew (a vet) has not played good for awhile now and I believe Frye can out play him in a game.

I have not watch any cowboys games except for thanksgiving but I have watched browns games and have seen defenders (note the 's') in Frye's face in less then 2 seconds. Only very good QBs can make that quick of a decision.

Has already mentioned Dallas has played "garbage" teams compare to the teams the Browns have played.

The answer is obviously "No". The QB is the root of all problems with a team. If the team's losing, toss the QB.

Success breads success.

The kid can play, and Dallas has a good team, in a VERY BAD division.

Are you being sarcastic? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Lol, of course I am. Y threw the YPA in our face. When TO playef for SF, he was supposed to throw a reverse pass, nothing was there so he took it 33 yds for a TD. He looks at everything that makes Charlie look inferior - escept the o-line, RB and running game.

Two solid running backs, versus zero solid RB's

JMO

LOL I could give a rat's ass about how long his TD passes were. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> And how the hell does what I wrote tell "half the story"?

The Cowboys are a playoff team now. Through 8 games, though, they were 4-4.

The point, which you are completely ignoring, is that the Dallas line was as maligned as ours was. They "sucked". They were one of the worst lines in the league. Sound familiar? It should.

You can only play the teams you play. If we beat the teams on our schedule, our opponent "strength of schedule" drops immediately.

We played Carolina. So did Dallas.

Romo: 24/36 for 270 1 TD 1 INT.

Frye: 26/43 for 173 0 TD 2 INT

We just played the Steelers ... a team, to put it kindly, in transition. We played the Bengals, a 6-5 team that has beaten us twice. We played Carloina. We got to play the hapless Raiders. We got the Jets. All teams play the teams they have on the schedules, and the team's wins or losses to those teams help add to or subtract from the strength of those teams' records.

Bledsoe got to feast on Washington. They allow tons of yardage, and have given up 21 TDs and only have 5 INTs and barely have double digit sacks. He got Tennessee in transition. they're giving up 220/game through the air, and 19 TDs, 10 INTs and only have 15 sacks. He played Philly. Bledsoe got Houston. They're below even Washington in passing defense, and have allowed 17 TD passes to 10 INTs with only 15 sacks.

Yeah ..... the elite were lining up to play Bledsoe. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Bledsoe struggled with the exact same team Romo has. The entire Cowboys team was seen as in disarray, and their talent and commitment were questioned. Their line was thought to be a weakness. Was it?

Is it really the case here?

the 3 lowest rated QBs, are on the teams that have 3 of the 4 worst rushing games in the NFL. Oddly, those 3 are rookies or 2nd year guys.

Another 2nd year guy is Alex Smith - he has an 80 rating. Frank Gore - his RB is 2nd in rushing yds in the entire NFL.

That's what I thought, as I agreed with everything else you said. For some reason I expect a face after sarcasm. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But, yeah, if we could throw a screen to Braylon that was guaranteed to net us 5-10 yards, then our line wouldn't look so bad.

Man you don't get it at all do you?

VS. Carolina - Dallas had 142 rush yards from RBs, Cleveland had 79. Ya think the pass game opened up?

so Charlie is your new Jihad, huh Y? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

And 1 of Charlies ints hit Cutt right in the hands and bounced up for a pick, hardly Charlies fault.

Talk about "half the information"... great if you want to manipulate "facts" then we can play that game...

And 3 of his INTS came in his first quarter plus of NFL football where he was put in without much practice with the first team, losing badly, on MNF... since then he's thrown 2 interceptions in his last 155 attempts...

As for 4 of his 5 TDs being inside 7 yards... big deal. Would you not take it if Frye could throw for that percentage? How many TD tosses does he have ALL YEAR of less than 10 yards? What is our redzone percentage? Why do we not even trust him to throw it down there?

It's a shame they didn't play there when Bledsoe was the QB earlier in the year... <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Again.. 3 INTs in his first quarter plus against the Giants....

In week 1 the Cowboys ran for 88 yards.. in week 2, 138 yards.. in week 4, 217 yards.. in week 5, 147 yards.. in week 6, 170 yards.... all with Bledsoe as the qb... The point ytown is making, which you are missing is that it is not only possible, it is quite common for the qb to be at fault on a lot of sacks...

See, ytown is trying to achieve 2 goals here... compare Romo to Bledsoe... Bledsoe got sacked twice as often as Romo and had a much worse TD/INT ratio.. yet the offense was the same, the receivers were the same, the OL was the same, the running game was the same ...

Now he's also saying, how does Frye fit into this... what would happen if we had a "Romo" to put in.... everybody says, oh he'd be awful behind our line... would he? he certainly seems to be making the OL in Dallas look like much better pass blockers....

No I don't. I think it sounds like excuses. I think it sounds like the same thing that people say every time they don't want to admit that a player might not have "it".... but they really want him to.... Do you know how many pass attempts Romo had prior to being put in against the Giants? 0.

No, but he is proving to be a major problem, and will, once again, have people calling for the team to be blown up so that "poor Charlie can have a chance".

Frye will never be an upper tier NFL starting QB. I doubt that he'll ever make the top half in the league. If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow. Anyone else willing to admit they're wrong if he turns out to be what I expect? I doubt it.

What I expect is that people will make every excuse in the book for him .... call for unit after unit to be thrown out so he can have a chance, and in a few years when a new regime comes in and tosses him overboard, for people to say "If he'd only had a chance with a good team ......" <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

We aren't comparing Bledsoe and Frye or Bledsoe and Romo. We are talking Frye and Romo. You say they are excuses yet you point out that romo in his first action threw 3 ints while being down - so that was acceptable in your eyes. How's this:

We were down vs. Oakland - they have the NUMBER 1 PASS D IN THE NFL. Frye threw 3 TDs and 2 ints.only 9 teams in the NFL have more ints than TDs given up, Oakland is even one of those. That blows your "Frye played Oakland" theory to pieces as an EXCUSE for him doing good in a game. Oh, and the NYG are NOT one of those teams.

You give Romo a free ride throwing 3 TDs while trying to come back. How many games have we been down in this year? We don't run, we pass way too much and have no line - all recipies for disaster no matter who's playing.

Fact, with RBs gaining over 100 yds this year - Frye is 2-0. Just like a lot of our QBs, we need a real RB, better line and to run a lot more.

Bledsoe was a statue in the pocket, Romo has mobility. If you know where the QB is going to be everytime, you can pin your ears back and rush him without having to worry about him breaking contain.

Romo's mobility allows him more time to throw the ball because Defenses have to account for his movement in and out of the pocket.

Whens the last time you've seen Bledsoe roll out of the pocket.

I haven't seen Romo play except for Thanksgiving day and I saw a qb who was very decisive on what he was going to do. It is also possible, and I don't follow the 'boys, that Parcells scaled things down a bit to make the transition smoother.

I argued on a thread earlier this year that there are a lot of things Charlie can do to improve his game DESPITE the line in front of him. However, those things will only go so far if the line or the team doesn't commit and produce a running game. We are only averaging a paltry 3 yards a carry.

I still can't cast a verdict on Charlie till I see some new and improved bodies up front, a running game that produces, and whomever is the new o-coordinator, what his scheme will do for the team in the long run.

Actually I'm pretty sure in this instance Frye is Bledsoe.. wondering if a "Romo" could make things better....

LMAO... ok, first of all, Fryes 3 TDs in the Raiders game were from 2 yards, 3 yards, and 5 yards so by your own post, those don't really count. And second of all, nobody is arguing that Frye is incapable of having a good game.... every once in a while.

I'm assuming you mean INTs and not TDs.. but yes I do. See Romo didn't create the mess he was in. Bledsoe did. Romo had never taken a single snap in a regular season game.. so yea, I give him a pass for that first quarter plus of action... Frye as of now has about a full season of starts under his belt and when we've been down this year... he was involved in getting us there.... so the fact that we're behind and trying to come back doesn't get him the same free pass.

We had 99 against the Steelers, 89 against the Chargers, 85 against the Saints... so you're saying 10 rushing yards makes that much difference?

Again ... simply not true. Romo may be slightly more mobile, but he's not a Frye on the run, let alone a Vick.

Parcells sold the move, and took care to massage Bledsoe's ego in case he was needed again by saying that it was made because Romo was more mobile. Is that the determining factor? Or, is it that Romo can see, understand, diagnose and make a throw much faster than Bledsoe? Watch a Cowboys game. Parcells had Romo throwing on a 1 step drop. 1 step! That means you have to know and go immediately. There's no time to digest the defensive look. You have to have it immediately. That has zero to do with mobility.

Charlie Frye has 16 starts....16.....with no running game and little protection. Look up his #s when he got a running game and "better" (lol) OL play (NYJ, PIT and ATL games come to mind)

NYJ 81.8 rating
PIT 89.1
ATL 109.1

then he had 2 good games more or less without this kind of help:

OAK 89.6
BAL 90.2

Summary: He is a young QB that alternates good and bad performances.....coincidently the good came when he had some help around him.....He can?t "win" us games? Sure...but which 16 game starter with low-level help could in the history of the NFL?

Romo is 100x more mobile than bledsoe. He isn't going to drop back and stand in the same spot everytime he throws the ball. Also, 1 step drop? What the hell is that?

Did you ever consider for a minute that maybe it was Charlie playing decent that opened up the running game and not the other way around? Did you ever consider that other teams might game plan to stop the run first and dare Charlie to beat them and he has only been able to do it 3 times? Just something to think about.

It's not about expecting him to put on a cape and carry the team. Not at all. What it is is expecting him to be able to do some things that successful QBs do.

He cannot read an NFL defense.

He stares down receivers.

His accuracy, beyond the 10 yard range, and especially on outs and touch passes over the LBs is questionable at best.

He has very little pocket awareness, especially disturbing given his mobility.

His arm is questionable as far as making all of the throws an NFL QB must make. (and no, I don't mean wind up and throw it down the middle of the field strength)

His mechanics, especially on the run, are horrible.

He fumbles a great deal.

We have gone 11 straight quarters without a TD. Think about that. Almost 3 entire games. All of these teams are in the bottom half of the league against the pass. Quite scary.

I believe that that is some of the problem. A rookie QB is going to have a hard time beating a defense all by himself.

But to be fair, I think we started running the ball first in the Jets game, then our offense was fueled off of the success we had with Droughns.

I'm not taking sides here, mainly because I think the discussion is futile, but I'd like to throw another .02 into the mix if ya don't mind.

Romo has a significant/consistent running game - Charlie does not
Teams also don't generate a pass-rush against Dallas with 3 or 4 guys like they do against us. Fewer guys in coverage for Romo.
Romo also has veteran - high$ receivers while Charlie has rooks (minus JJ - who's good, but no TO)

The whole comparison is bogus where Charlie is concerned, IMO - but is an interesting point where Romo vs Bledsoe is concerned.

We can argue over
"is Charlie holding the ball is because no one is open or because he can't read fast enough".
"is Charlie inaccurate or are the receivers running bad routes".
"is the OL making bad calls, or is Charlie not making sight adjustments".
all day long.

What do we know for sure? Only two things I can think of that film is crystal clear about.
We have lots of different protection problems, but what's consistent?
1. Our interior line can't stop penetration on running plays and can't support a passing pocket.
2. Winslow is a bad blocker - borderline horrible. Whenever he's in the game, he's a liability if he's not on a route.

Charlie hasn't done a single thing to impress me - just like every other player on our offense. (Winslow causes as many problems as anyone).
We've got DQ, Wimbley, Jones, Pool, etc on defense. Who's impressed you to that level on offense?
Its not like Charlie is holding anyone back, at least not to the point it can be identified from the stands, IMO.
He may or may not be our answer at QB, but we've got more problems on offense than Charlie Frye.

Have you watched a Dallas game? lol I watched the last couple. Romo doesn't run around like a chicken with his head cut off. If he moves, it's generally a step or 2 to avoid pressure without losing sight of the field.

As far as "what the hell is a one step drop?" ... it's something that requires great pre-snap reads, and ultra fast decision making. Ask Parcells why he put it in, and wht it worked. Mobility didn't have a thing to do with it. It was all about great reads and immediate, and on target throws.

Well, it's 100% true that Charlie is not and most likely never will be the guy that is going to take the team on his back and carry us to a win, but that is not what is expected of him, never was.

We most certainly are not getting the production from that position that one would want.... however, the big debate obviously is a chicken/egg scenario (much as it was with He Who's Name Shall Not Be Spoken). Is it the QB or is it the surrounding factors..... and honestly, I can only say that I think it's both/all of it.

When I look at our offense, I do not see any part of it that stands out as having done well at all, aside from KW2 (he was great in Chronicles of Riddick btw...watched it last night <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />). Hell, anyone will have a hard time finding any part of that offense that has consistently done ANYTHING correctly. There is just soooo much dysfunction that I can't see looking at one part and labelling it as "The Cause".

Charlie most certainly has his share of fault in all of this and I *really* HATE the way the ball looks coming out off his hand when he throws, but if other parts were doing their bit better, would he still look so bad? I don't think so and I am firmly convinced our W-L record would look a good bit better....which of course is all that truly matters.

Actually, 1 step drops and quick throws sound like basic plays that a new starting QB would get called for him because the coaches want to boost his confidence. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Romo has mobility?

Romo runs a 5.02 40
Frye runs a 4.72 40
Bledsoe is the slowest player in the NFL

Dallas has always had a decent line. Bledsoe is just the slowest human being on Earth, that's why he was always getting sacked.

Uggh...I just want to be cryogenically frozen until we have a winning team...

But knowing my luck, I'd wake up 500 years from now and will have to fight off sea otters (please tell me you guys know what I'm referencing).

Romo has uber mobility when compared with Bledslow.

J/C, I think Romo gets rid of the ball much quicker than Bledsoe or Frye does and that's why the sacks and pressure have dropped in Dallas, if Romo holds the ball as long as Bledsoe or Frye then I'm sure he'd see the pressure and feel the sacks. His decision making also seems to be better than the average QB. Seems to be decent at reading defenses but I'm not positive on that. I think Romo makes the Dallas line look better than they really are, although, they may be playing better as well.

I'm not quite ready to throw Charles under the bus just yet .. but the body of evidence when u consider EVERYTHING is starting to look like we'll be bringing in a new QB, be it a vet or in the draft next year .. so I agree with Y-Town that Charles prolly isn't the answer ... but the Cowboy comparision is a JOKE ... the two situations dont correlate at all ... he wants to boil it down to two simple things ... OL/QB .. well thats just not going to give u a very accurate picture .. its a JOKE ..

Bottom Line is no QB (ROMO INCLUDED) would suceed behind this OL ... and like many of us have said for the last 7 years until we UPGRADE THE OL were gonna struggle ... why is that so hard to figure out?? the proofs been there for 7 straight years ... quit sending our QB's to gun fights with knives and maybe they'll have a chance ..

Y-town has a very valid point here with Charles .. but he makes an INANE AND IRRELIVENT case to prove it with this silly comparision ...

[color:"white"] and Y-town [/color] .. Dallas's OL is no better than it was when Drew was behind it. .... the QB they have now just masks alot of their deficiencies ..... he is the anti Drew ... Bledsoe has always HELD THE BALL TO LONG and has the mobility of a cigar store indian ... look at his entire career .. bet he's almost always been in the top in sacks taken ... after he came back from his injury one of the main reasons they stuck with Brady was that he GOT RID OF THE BALL QUICKER and made decisions where as Bledsoe would take sacks ... that was one of the BIGGEST DIFFERENCES the entire offense and offensive staffs recognized between the two ...

Neither am I.

Hope not but it's looking that way.

Every comparison is a joke when it doesn't yield the results some are looking for... there are factors other than QB and OL.. but that's what everybody on here wants to talk about..

Success is a relative term Diam... are we talking "deep into the playoffs with a shot at the Super Bowl" success... or are we talking "6-5 right now and not talking so much about the draft" success? The first is unrealistic... however the second is not.

Struggle is a relative term Diam... oh you already know how that one works.. <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

This is why Ytowns comparison is NOT inane... this is the question about Charlie that Ytown is trying to answer... does he help mask the deficiencies of the OL or does he make them look that much worse?

As I told ytown in a PM.. this is my plan to fix our qb situation.. first in the offseason we sign Bledsoe, then in the draft we take some guy, doesn't matter who, to play qb in the 7th round... then next year Bledsoe plays, then the following year we start with Bledsoe and go to the new guy after 4 games... Bledsoe got hurt and 6th round Tom Brady emerged.... Bledsoe goes to Dallas and is ineffective and UDFA Tony Romo emerges... Bring Bledsoe here, HE is the key to us finding a quality QB...

You're absolutely right. Frye is terrible. He is the only thing holding this offense back. Without him this team would be on it's way to the playoffs...

Thats what you wanted to hear, right?


Can you tell me with a straight face the Frye is the only problem on our offense?

Can you tell me with a straight face that our oline is as good as the Cowboys?

The situation in Dallas is one where the oline was probably not as bad is everyone said. More a case of Bledsoe being a washed up qb. Where in Cleveland, our oline is really that bad. Apples to oranges.

Maybe Frye is the guy, maybe he's not. But Frye is not the only problem with our offense. Why not fix some of the other problems before making the change? Why set another qb up to fail?

At the rate that the fans run players and coaches out of town, how will we ever win? Pretty soon, there will be no one that wants to be on this team because they know what the fans will do if the make a mistake.

Maybe we should ask Detroit how dumping Harrington worked out for them?

Read my post again - eventually you'll notice a key word "RBs" a QB who runs for his life for 27 yds vs. the Steelers, 44 against the Saints (he led the freakin' team that game), 27 against SD - yes, those 98 yards make a huge difference in your QB at the end of the game when he's exhausted from running away from defenders. Use your heads a little. To put zip on the ball, think baseball - a lot of it is waist down (why QBs get little on the ball throwing off their back foot) if your legs are exhausted from being chased you aren't going to play as well. Talk about inflating stats for your benefit. Try again

Steelers - RBs got 72 yds, 41 vs. the saints, 69 vs. the Chargers - that's great production!!! Wow - what a running game!!!

Carson Palmer
2003 ? DNP
2004 ? 77.3 QB Rating ? (263 of 432) 60.9% - 2897 yards ? 6.71 YPA ? 18 TD ? 18 INT
2005 ? 101.1 QB Rating ? (345 of 509) 67.8% - 3836 yards ? 7.54 YPA ? 32 TD ? 12 INT
2006 ? 99.9 QB Rating ? (228 of 354) 64.4% - 2868 yards ? 8.10 YPA ? 21 TD ? 8 INT


Browns fans would have been calling for Palmer's head in his first full season as a starting QB. Browns fans need to learn to have patience.

Coaches always say it takes 3 to 4 years for a QB to adapt to the NFL.