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Quote:
When Missouri voters cast ballots on the so-called "right-to-pray" amendment to the state's constitution, they'll be deciding whether students should be able to opt out of school assignments that they think run counter to their religious beliefs.
Yet that's not spelled out on the Aug. 7 ballot.
To its supporters, the amendment enumerates rights already in the U.S. and Missouri constitutions and forces government and public schools to respect religious liberty.
To its critics, the amendment poses a problematic fix for something that isn't broken, and ultimately could open school curricula to theological negotiation.
Both sides agree the final say probably will be made by the courts.
Last year, lawmakers approved a proposed change to Missouri's constitution they said was aimed at prohibiting government or school officials from adopting policies to prevent prayer in public places, as long as the prayer does not result in disturbance of the peace or disruption of a public meeting or assembly.
The summary that will appear on the ballot asks voters whether the constitution should be amended to ensure:
That the right of Missouri citizens to express their religious beliefs shall not be infringed.
That school children have the right to pray and acknowledge God voluntarily in their schools.
And that all public schools shall display the Bill of Rights of the United States Constitution.
The summary goes on to say a "no" vote will not change the current constitutional provisions protecting freedom of religion.
Supporters and critics agree that the right to pray in public is already enshrined in the U.S. Constitution and the Missouri Constitution. But state Rep. Mike McGhee, an Odessa Republican who sponsored the amendment for five years, said many people are unaware of their rights.
"We're just trying to get the word out," McGhee said. "You have the right to pray at a city council meeting, a football game or a school board meeting as long as you don't disturb anyone else."
Left out of the summary that will appear on the ballot, however, is a provision that says no student "shall be compelled to perform or participate in academic assignments or educational presentations that violate his or her religious beliefs."
Susan German, president of the Science Teachers of Missouri, said the amendment could have a major impact on the teaching of certain topics in classrooms around the state.
"It is evident that some of the major areas of concern include teaching the age of the Earth, evolution, or climate change in the science classrooms," German said in a letter to the organization's 450 members. "While this may not be a direct attack, it certainly opens the door."
German said her organization has not taken a formal position on the amendment, but it is urging its members to go beyond the summary to fully understand potential ramifications.
"You can't put the entire amendment in the summary, but letting students opt out of assignments is a pretty big change," said Anthony Rothert, the legal director of the ACLU of Eastern Missouri. "I don't know if voters will know that this is what they are voting for."
McGhee said his intent wasn't to allow students to opt out of a class on evolution, but rather to give students the opportunity to refuse to take a class "on Buddha or on Islam, or for a Muslim kid to be able to say he won't take a class on Christianity if he feels it contradicts his faith. I want to make sure a student knows he can bring his Bible to study hall if he chooses."
If the curriculum of a school results in conflicts with the constitutional amendment, McGhee said, "why not just change the curriculum so that it will be pleasing to all the students?"
Kerry Messer, president of the Missouri Family Network, dismissed concerns that the amendment would have dramatic impacts on lesson plans.
"Will somebody try to opt out of a class over something like evolution? Probably so," he said. "But I don't see the courts applying the amendment that way at all. This is only about religious liberty. If a Christian student is told they must kneel and bow east in a mock Islamic prayer to sensitize students to the Luslim community, that student can refuse to participate."
Gregory Lipper, senior litigation counsel for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said the measure's language is so broad no one knows for sure what its impact might be.
"In trying to solve a made-up problem, this amendment generates a flood of legalese," he said. "It adds more fine print to the Missouri Constitution than you'd find in the typical apartment lease."
The only thing that's certain, Lipper said, is that the amendment will result in a "flood of long and costly lawsuits" at taxpayers' expense.
Messer, however, said he doesn't expect a significant change in the number of lawsuits, but rather a change in the way a governing body makes decisions. He contends that instead of being solely motivated by the fear of being sued for allowing religious observances in schools or other public venues, now government officials will have to contend with the threat of a lawsuit if they curtail those activities.
"This amendment," Messer said, "turns the tables."
If the amendment passes and problems arise, the legislature can always go back and make corrections, said McGhee, who is running for the state Senate. But because the measure is an amendment to the state constitution, any proposed changes that clear both the House and Senate would have to once again be placed on the ballot for voters to ultimately decide.
North Dakota voters in June overwhelmingly rejected a proposed amendment to that state's constitution aimed at preventing government officials from implementing laws that could be considered an obstruction of the exercise of religion.
In Missouri, however, even those opposing the prayer amendment concede it is likely to pass.
"It wouldn't surprise me at all if this passes overwhelmingly," said Rothert of the ACLU. "If you just read the summary it seems like a real moderate proposal. The real action will come down the road, when lawsuits are filed by students trying to opt out of assignments."
I completely agree that individuals should be allowed to pray in school. Just don't interrupt or make a spectacle of it. However, this legislation goes a bit further by mistake.
I've always been under the impression that studying a counter view can do one of two things. Strengthen your faith or provide you with better understanding of the issue. Either way, studying an opposite viewpoint engages a person's critical thinking skills. It's just a matter of being able to allow yourself to do this, though. Our schools need more of this kind of critical thinking. No reason why it suddenly has to start in college.
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Legend
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Umm... I'd love to complete that assingment and everything..
But Alegebra is against my religious beliefs...
Last edited by OSGuy; 08/06/12 04:39 PM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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And the American education system continues to freefall. The wealthiest country in the world is already average in educational rankings.. Initiatives like this show why.
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Initiatives like this show why.
No, no, no. Don't you know unions, evil liberal teachers and kicking God out of the schools are the reasons for the decline?! We need to test students more, break up the Department of Education, tell inner city students to pick themselves up by their bootstraps, and completely privatize the American Education System. [/sarcasm]
Last edited by RocketOptimist; 08/06/12 05:40 PM.
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Quote:
Umm... I'd love to complete that assingment and everything..
But Alegebra is against my religious beliefs...
Math uses those darn Arabic numerals, and I ain't no Muslim.
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I completely agree that individuals should be allowed to pray in school.
From the middle of the article:
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I want to make sure a student knows he can bring his Bible to study hall if he chooses.
Students already can pray individually, or bring their bible to school, or read it. There is no law stating they can't. The most that would happen to them is they'd get made fun of for being a "goodie-two-shoes" or something by the other students. The only problem is when it becomes school sponsored, then it goes against the separation of church and state. There's no need for a law like this. Seems like a backdoor for getting kids out of learning about the nature of the world. It's going to get misused all over the place if it passes.
There are no sacred cows.
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Legend
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Not believing in things is one thing, but disbelieving in something that you haven't taken a moment to study,, well, that's just dumb.'
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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Quote:
Umm... I'd love to complete that assingment and everything..
But Alegebra is against my religious beliefs...
Exactly!
I think this is just stupid... as others have said learning about other cultures and beliefs is not a bad thing...
<><
#gmstrong
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And if simply learning about other cultures is against your beliefs, then your creed must be complete and utter stagnation.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Initiatives like this show why.
No, no, no. Don't you know unions, evil liberal teachers and kicking God out of the schools are the reasons for the decline?! We need to test students more, break up the Department of Education, tell inner city students to pick themselves up by their bootstraps, and completely privatize the American Education System. [/sarcasm]
Right... restrictive unions, poorly planned curriculum, social manipulation, bloated bureaucracy, and lack of parental involvement can't ALSO be part of the problem... 
yebat' Putin
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Amusing. The conservative and the liberal trading punches over what's wrong with American education. And while they continue to focus on the same old tired excuses, they fail to mention the most important reason why the education system is failing.....
Intelligence is variable, and half of the children in K-12 education are below average in their ability to learn what is being taught to them. Consequently, programs such as No Child Left Behind and the like are destroying education by perpetuating the lie that all children are equal in their ability to learn. The result is an inefficient education system that is not serving the best interest of either the below average students or the academically gifted students. And as long as the conservatives and liberals continue to bicker over unions and parenting, this most fundamental problem is never going to be solved.
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Right... restrictive unions, poorly planned curriculum, social manipulation, bloated bureaucracy, and lack of parental involvement can't ALSO be part of the problem...
No..... It couldn't be that. The real problem is those people in Missouri who don't need to learn about evolution.
While I don't think creationism needs to be taught in schools, I think how it gets knocked is pretty ridiculous. I saw some documentary by Ben Stein about the whole issue, and it is similar to the Climate Change thing, if you question it, you were considered a complete idiot.
Yet creationism is not always as simple as the story of Adam and Eve, yet people don't realize that.
Anyway, I agree with you. Having spent a year teaching Social Studies (9th grade), those are huge factors. You take the kids from the rich town next to me and put them in the urban schools here, and take all the kids out of these urban schools and put them in the town next to us' schools, and you'll see, the urban kids (in rich town school) won't do any better. Yet the rich town kids in the urban school will still succeed. No doubt in my mind.
And how Teacher's Unions say they actually care about students? LOL. They care about teachers, period. How the hell can the Louisiana Teacher's Union sue over charter schools and school vouchers? Something is wrong there, and they're fighting possible solutions (to protect themselves). Or how it's impossible to fire a teacher with tenure in the NYC School System. RIDICULOUS
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Right... restrictive unions,
Do we need union reform? Yes, we do. However, a complete eradication of a group which fights for reasonable class sizes based on research isn't one of the things we should be doing.
Yes, I know what Romney has said. Research proves him wrong time and time again.
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poorly planned curriculum
Definitely agree here. History, Math, Science and English curriculum needs a complete overhaul.
History is a tough one, really. We're caught in this battle of not offending anyone by teaching a full blown A People's History of The United States by Howard Zinn but we don't want to give the sunshine and rainbows version of history, either. I'd like to to be closer to the truth as it would require the students to engage in critical thinking.
Math and Science need to be taught using the ways we currently do but incorporate more hands on real world application.
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social manipulation
Are we talking putting students on tracts and stratifying them based off of a "perceived" set in stone ability level? I'm not a fan of student stratification at all.
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bloated bureaucracy
Yeah, having more than two adminstrators does seem like a lot of unnecessary people. I think you could warrant more than two administrators if the school offered more programs or something?
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and lack of parental involvement can't ALSO be part of the problem...
It's a double edged sword, actually. Schools need to find ways to get parents to care about their child's education. Part of the problem comes from children in households where they play the role of the parent. A lot of kids in urban communities live in single parent households where the parent works 2+ jobs 40+ hours a week. The older siblings have little to no time for their studies. Yet, they're supposed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps?
Mantis,
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Intelligence is variable, and half of the children in K-12 education are below average in their ability to learn what is being taught to them.
Isn't this a bit antithetical and defeatist to the concept of teaching and education? I'm not sure why a teacher would buy into the fact that kids can't learn. Sure, kids have different ability levels but there's nothing to say they can't do something. It just might take others a little bit longer, that's all.
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Consequently, programs such as No Child Left Behind and the like are destroying education by perpetuating the lie that all children are equal in their ability to learn.
Yeah, No Child Left Behind and Race To The Bottom are destroying education. Both value raw test data over actual critical thinking. This causes districts to cheat, erase, and manipulate this test data to secure what little funding schools receive.
Petey,
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Yet creationism is not always as simple as the story of Adam and Eve, yet people don't realize that.
It always seems to be backed by a fundamentalist Christian group, though. I don't know of any other "top rated" education system in the world which teaches such a concept.
I'm open to the idea of some sort of designer but the scientific evidence isn't there. Our schools try their best to teach facts before politics get in the way.
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You take the kids from the rich town next to me and put them in the urban schools here, and take all the kids out of these urban schools and put them in the town next to us' schools, and you'll see, the urban kids (in rich town school) won't do any better. Yet the rich town kids in the urban school will still succeed. No doubt in my mind.
All of the students, except for one, of The Little Rock Nine did quite well in the first great experiment of education integration. Even Ruby Bridges, a girl who was also the center of one of the first integration projects, was successful. She's now an acclaimed author and public speaker.
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How the hell can the Louisiana Teacher's Union sue over charter schools and school vouchers?
Because state funds are being used to give kids a private religious based education. It's the same thing which happened in Cleveland a little over a decade ago. A lot of these religious institution teach humans walked with dinosaurs, environmentalists are out to destroy corporate America, and that The Trail of Tears led Native Americans to Christ.
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Or how it's impossible to fire a teacher with tenure in the NYC School System. RIDICULOUS
Not impossible. Tenure in K-12 education grants due process rights. Does it take awhile, yeah. I think the process could be expedited quicker but it's not impossible to fire a teacher in NYC.
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All of the students, except for one, of The Little Rock Nine did quite well in the first great experiment of education integration. Even Ruby Bridges, a girl who was also the center of one of the first integration projects, was successful. She's now an acclaimed author and public speaker.
I have no issue with integration, my point is that many kids are a product of their environment. There's a reason that most kids from the projects don't end up being as successful as students from the suburban areas of town (yet we go to the same high school). It's not a black white thing (genetics), it all has to do with accountability in your community.
Role models, who's at home, are you read to at night as a kid, do your parent/parents try to teach you basic things as a child, what time you're going to bed
There's no question in my mind that the kids from the wrong side of town (in general) are better off being forced to stay after school, do their homework in a structured environment, and staying away from the community that continues to tear them down.
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Or how it's impossible to fire a teacher with tenure in the NYC School System. RIDICULOUS
Not impossible. Tenure in K-12 education grants due process rights. Does it take awhile, yeah. I think the process could be expedited quicker but it's not impossible to fire a teacher in NYC.
Lemme just throw out the numbers, impossible might not have been the right word. But these stats sorta put things in perspective
"Consider New York City. The New York Daily News reports that “over the past three years [2007-2010], just 88 out of some 80,000 city schoolteachers have lost their jobs for poor performance.”
(88/80,000)= .1% over three years (or i guess .033% per year)
Things are no better in New York as a whole. The Albany Times Union looked at what was going on outside New York City and discovered some shocking data: Of 132,000 teachers, only 32 were fired for any reason between 2006 and 2011.
32/132,000= .024% (.005% per year?)
Or look at Chicago. In a school district that has by any measure failed its students — only 28.5 percent of 11th graders met or exceeded expectations on that state’s standardized tests — Newsweek reported that only 0.1 percent of teachers were dismissed for performance-related reasons between 2005 and 2008. When barely one in four students nearing graduation can read and do math, how is it possible that only one in one thousand teachers is worthy of dismissal?"
.025% per year?
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In ten years, only about 47 out of 100,000 teachers were actually terminated from New Jersey’s schools.
.05% over ten years? so that's gotta be like .005% per year? lol
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In 2009, The Los Angeles Times reported that fewer than two percent of teachers are denied tenure during the two year probationary period after being hired. And once they have tenure, there’s no getting rid of them. Between 1995 and 2005, only 112 Los Angeles tenured teachers faced termination — eleven per year — out of 43,000. And that’s in a school district where the graduation rate in 2003 was just 51 percent.
11/43000= .025% per year
http://teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.cfm
Now, this is just stuff I quickly brought up. Obviously it's an anti-teaching union website, but the stats are coming from real sources.
And how many of those were because of some creepo teacher having inappropriate relations with a student or something like that, possibly threatening to kill a kid, hitting a kid, etc. Take away those, and then count teachers that are fired for simply being bad at teaching.
You see? Now, I'm in the working in the maritime shipping business. People get fired all the time for being bad at their job, heck, you can get fired for something that happens that isn't even your fault.
Me, I wasn't a very good teacher. I probably would have gotten better and been a decent teacher, but i realized my heart wasn't in it and i simply wasn't a natural. And that just wasn't good enough for me. But i sure as heck didn't get fired, lol
As for the fight against Charter Schools, I do understand that the cost of educating a student isn't as simple as, taking the money spent on a student in public school and giving them that for private school (because of fixed costs at schools, the cost for every other student rises), but still, their public schools in Louisianna are some of the worst in the country. AWFUL. And kids who want to actually try and get a decent education by switching to a private school are getting denied by teachers who supposedly support good education?
I wonder how many of those Louisianna public school teachers get outed every year for doing a crappy job. lol
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Here's another problem with public schools, used to . me off as hell. How can the gym teacher in his first year as a teacher make the same as me (a social studies teacher?) RIDICULOUS! Nothing against someone who might be a gym teacher on the board, but how much lesson planning do they do? Do they have to grade tons of papers? How much work do they bring home with them? With the initiative of pushing more and more writing in lessons, that meant I had to read what these students would write. How much extra work (besides class time) does a gym teacher spend? From my experience subbing for some extra bucks during my masters, not much at ALL
That really pissed me off.
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 08/07/12 11:55 PM.
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Sorry, going to pick this apart. Quote:
The real problem is those people in Missouri who don't need to learn about evolution.
Teaching anything in science is about critical thinking. Being able to look at a problem, diagnose it properly, and understand it well enough to talk about it (and fix it if necessary) is a skill that we as a country are lacking. We don't talk about how our brains deceive us or how our emotions and feelings can get in the way of well-reasoned thought. Evolution is how the world works, people shouldn't help delude our younger generations just because they don't like it. It sets a dangerous precedent, telling kids they can ignore and dismiss what they don't care about just based on a gut feeling. Facts are important, they shouldn't be disregarded.
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While I don't think creationism needs to be taught in schools, I think how it gets knocked is pretty ridiculous. I saw some documentary by Ben Stein about the whole issue, and it is similar to the Climate Change thing, if you question it, you were considered a complete idiot.
"Expelled" with Ben Stein was a propaganda piece put out by the ironically named Discovery Institute, a group who's goal is to promote and study creationism. The best place to find an unbiased critique of the film is the Wiki page, here. The thing is, there is so much evidence for evolution, or the idea that all life on earth descended from a common ancestor, that it is not rational to think there is anything else going on. It's not that evidence is being covered up, or people are being shut up, there is literally no good evidence for anything else. (emphasis on the good part. Yes, there are papers which purport to show evidence, but these have not passed peer review)
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Yet creationism is not always as simple as the story of Adam and Eve, yet people don't realize that.
No, it's just as simple as the first chapter in Genesis.
There are no sacred cows.
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It sets a dangerous precedent, telling kids they can ignore and dismiss what they don't care about just based on a gut feeling.
This is a solid point. You're right on that account.
But is this making you that nervous for the countries educational system. I mean, we're not in the 1800's. I don't think many kids educated in public schools are going to somehow get out of learning about evolution.
I don't live in the bible belt or anything, and the area i taught in wasn't the type of area where this would be a problem. So may be that skews my mind.
But I still think the real issues in our public school systems run much much much deeper than this issue.
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"Expelled" with Ben Stein was a propaganda piece put out by the ironically named Discovery Institute, a group who's goal is to promote and study creationism. The best place to find an unbiased critique of the film is the Wiki page, here. The thing is, there is so much evidence for evolution, or the idea that all life on earth descended from a common ancestor, that it is not rational to think there is anything else going on. It's not that evidence is being covered up, or people are being shut up, there is literally no good evidence for anything else. (emphasis on the good part. Yes, there are papers which purport to show evidence, but these have not passed peer review)
LOL, just looked at the wiki page, definitely not an "unbiased critique of the film." Some random person had to write it. I dunno, check the movie out yourself if you haven't seen it.
Is it a propaganda piece, of course. It supports the idea that may be the theory of intelligent design shouldn't be dismissed. But, I thought it was pretty good.
And yes, I do believe in evolution. I believe in dionsaurs, the big bang, all of it; I just also believe that you need people who go against the grain questioning your theory or plans.
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Yet creationism is not always as simple as the story of Adam and Eve, yet people don't realize that.
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No, it's just as simple as the first chapter in Genesis.
This on the other hand, i do disagree with. Not everyone who believes in creationsim believes that it happened the same way it did in Genesis. I think you were joking, but i'm not sure (since we're on a message board)
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Legend
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Do we need union reform? Yes, we do. However, a complete eradication of a group which fights for reasonable class sizes based on research isn't one of the things we should be doing.
Yes, I know what Romney has said. Research proves him wrong time and time again.
Honest question, do teachers unions fight for small class sizes because its better for the kids.... or because its easier for the teachers? I don't really care if they have a union or not, but we need to be able to hire and fire teachers, reward the best ones, get rid of the worst ones, etc.
Oh, and I'm not a Romney fan and I honestly don't know what he said. If you would like to share, I will comment. I'm yet to hear any politician say anything that leads me to believe they can fix education.
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Definitely agree here. History, Math, Science and English curriculum needs a complete overhaul.
History is a tough one, really. We're caught in this battle of not offending anyone by teaching a full blown A People's History of The United States by Howard Zinn but we don't want to give the sunshine and rainbows version of history, either. I'd like to to be closer to the truth as it would require the students to engage in critical thinking.
Math and Science need to be taught using the ways we currently do but incorporate more hands on real world application.
I agree.
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Are we talking putting students on tracts and stratifying them based off of a "perceived" set in stone ability level? I'm not a fan of student stratification at all.
Actually by "social manipulation" I was talking about the time devoted to teaching the recycling, fairness, and global warming.. all from a social perspective, not a science perspective. But since you bring it up, I think students should be put in groups or classes based on ability. If that is the kind of stratification you are talking about then I'm in favor of it. If you have 4 3rd grade classes in a school and all 4 classes have some of the smartest 3rd graders on down to some of the worst performing 3rd graders, then I don't believe anybody benefits. The most capable kids are held back by the amount of time the teacher has to devote to the lowest performing kids and the lowest performing kids are frustrated because they can't keep up...
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Yeah, having more than two adminstrators does seem like a lot of unnecessary people. I think you could warrant more than two administrators if the school offered more programs or something?
2 Administrators, what school has 2 administrators? A quick review of my sons high school reveals that they have (1) Principal, (4) Assistant Principals, (1) ALC (whatever that is), (1) Dean, (2) Counselors, (1) Special Program, (1) Counselor for SAP, (1) Nova Net/In Crd, (1) TA One on one, (1) Lead Secretary, (1) Registrar Office, (1) Receptionist, (1) Data Manager, (1) Bookkeeper, (1) AM Receptionist/Copy Center, (1) PM Receptionsist, (1) Attendance, (1) Sp. Prog/TA, (2) Sp Prog/OCS, (3) Sp. Prog/CCR, (1) Sp. Prog/BST, (1) TA Sp. Prog-BST, (1) Psychologist, (2) Sp. Prog/TA, (1) TA/ISS, (1) AIG. (1) Career Development...... Sorry, I had to just give the title the school gives because I honestly don't have any idea what a lot of those people do...... and that's everybody thats listed under "Administration and Student Services"
But for the record, I wasn't talking about the number of administrators in each school, I was talking more about the bureaucrats deciding how and what kids learn instead of the educators, the methods of ordering text books, the poorly planned purchase of technology, the poorly planned use of capital improvement funds to build and refurbish schools... etc.... Mostly general systemic government waste...
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It's a double edged sword, actually. Schools need to find ways to get parents to care about their child's education.
Good luck with that. I do not, in any way, see it as the schools responsibility to get parents to care about their childs education. The only ways I can think of to do that, would never be considered socially acceptable.
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Part of the problem comes from children in households where they play the role of the parent. A lot of kids in urban communities live in single parent households where the parent works 2+ jobs 40+ hours a week. The older siblings have little to no time for their studies. Yet, they're supposed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps?
While this is tragic and occurs far too often in our society, what exactly is the school system supposed to do about it? This sort of goes hand in hand with my social manipulation comment, how is the school supposed to fix a kids homelife? What level of accommodation should be made for kids with less than ideal home circumstances?
yebat' Putin
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But is this making you that nervous for the countries educational system.
Absolutely, but i'm not talking solely about Evolution. (Although I think evolution is a great teaching tool. It's necessary for biology, but it's also great if you want to lay out something that's science vs. not science by comparing evolution with creationism/ID) Kids coming into college should be able to express themselves well in both written and vocal contexts. They should be able to problem solve and think critically about a subject. They need to learn that we as humans are so great at connecting two things/ideas together, that we can make them up out of thin air. I'm not saying people need to think like I do, I just expect them to be able to back up claims and prove my idea wrong if necessary.
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LOL, just looked at the wiki page, definitely not an "unbiased critique of the film." Some random person had to write it. I dunno, check the movie out yourself if you haven't seen it.
It's a collection of information about the film, and how the director/producers skewed much of the information about the people and the information in the film that it might as well have been false. The whole point of the movie is to paint people who study evolution academically as some evil cabal set on destroying anything non-self, which is a strawman argument. If you scroll down to those sections describing the four or five instances where people felt persecuted, you'll see that they made mistakes. Those mistakes led to their removal from their positions (sometimes years later), not the fact that they believed in ID. The stories that this movie puts forth are disingenuous at best, outright lies at worst.
I've seen it by the way, and from the standpoint of an agnostic as well as someone who studies evolution it was a complete mischaracterization of what occurs in academia.
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Is it a propaganda piece, of course. It supports the idea that may be the theory of intelligent design shouldn't be dismissed. But, I thought it was pretty good.
There is no scientific Theory of Intelligent Design. In order for there to be a scientific theory, it needs to be testable, it needs to have evidence. A scientific theory is one that takes all the evidence, throws out the stuff that doesn't match the observations of the real world, and keeps the stuff that does. It's a compilation of verified facts that when taken together tell the story of how something works. Right now ID is just a bunch of "what-ifs" and hand waving, not even a testable hypothesis. Until it can be tested, it shouldn't be taught in schools or be presented on the same level as evolution. I'm not saying people can't attempt to study it, just that up to this point, it's not scientific.
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This on the other hand, i do disagree with. Not everyone who believes in creationsim believes that it happened the same way it did in Genesis. I think you were joking, but i'm not sure (since we're on a message board)
Partially joking, more of a  than anything else. I know there are other creation stories; those have just as much evidence for them as the Christian one that's trying to be forced into schools. My main point in making the comment was that these stories lack evidence yet people point to them as infallible truth. I'm fine with faith, I'm fine with belief, but I can't accept teaching it as absolute truth. It's just wrong.
There are no sacred cows.
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I was talking more about the bureaucrats deciding how and what kids learn instead of the educators, the methods of ordering text books, the poorly planned purchase of technology, the poorly planned use of capital improvement funds to build and refurbish schools
Exactly. Totally agree.
There are no sacred cows.
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jc..
Learning opposing view points is the best way to learn and understand your opponent, and often become tolerant of their opinions, something that is often lacking in discussions and debates these days.
How do we know hot from cold if you only have one without the other?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Isn't this a bit antithetical and defeatist to the concept of teaching and education? I'm not sure why a teacher would buy into the fact that kids can't learn. Sure, kids have different ability levels but there's nothing to say they can't do something. It just might take others a little bit longer, that's all.
It's not a question of if children can learn or not. It's a question of how well children can learn. The way education is currently structured, it is indeed antithetical to the pedagogical goals of the teacher to acknowledge that not all students can achieve the same level of academic success. And yet, the education system is set up so that every child, regardless of their ability, must achieve the same academic goals. The result is boredom for children with high ability and humiliation and despondency for children with low ability. Teachers are put in an impossible situation because they are told that all of the students must achieve the same standard. But the teachers will be the first to tell you that they know this system is based on a lie. There is a serious problem here that no one is addressing, I think for two reasons: (1) partisan political debates over education that focus on the traditional partisan issues and (2) the peculiar American myth that "all men are created equal" which manifests itself in unusually aggressive denials regarding human inequality from both liberals and conservatives. I wouldn't call acknowledging intellectual inequality defeatist. If anything, it is realistic, and it has the potential to drastically improve our education system. What is defeatist is continuing to structure education according to the lie that all children can achieve the same academic success if they just try hard enough regardless of their intellectual ability.
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Legend
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(2) the peculiar American myth that "all men are created equal" which manifests itself in unusually aggressive denials regarding human inequality from both liberals and conservatives. I wouldn't call acknowledging intellectual inequality defeatist. If anything, it is realistic, and it has the potential to drastically improve our education system. What is defeatist is continuing to structure education according to the lie that all children can achieve the same academic success if they just try hard enough regardless of their intellectual ability.
That is very interesting....and that reality goes against everything our government wants us to believe. So many resources and scholarships are wasted on those that have neither the ability nor desire to reach certain academic standards (which we are told are necessary to achieve success in life).
On the other hand, those nations that excel in education have extremely high universal standards. How are they able to maintain their high level of success?
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Legend
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Amen brother. Until we accept that "All men are created equal" doesn't mean that everybody is equally good at everything, we will struggle.
yebat' Putin
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On the other hand, those nations that excel in education have extremely high universal standards. How are they able to maintain their high level of success?
You'd have to give me an example to investigate in order to adequetly answer your question. Intellectual inequality is a fact of human nature that is not limited to the United States, so I would bet that there is more going on in these educational systems than can be gleaned from the comparative statistics. To make a valid comparison, we would have to define what is meant by "success" and "excelling in education." I suspect the definitions of these concepts are different for other countries.
Take Germany, for example. They actually sort their children into 3 different schools based on their academic ability. (Can you imagine what would happen if we tried to do that in this country?) So, Germany doesn't have universal standards for its students, and I would bet other countries have similar sorting mechanisms.
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Denmark and Switzerland are the 2 example countries that I often see cited as exemplar models of education.
#gmstrong
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[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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I'll have to look into these. Might take a few days.
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Intelligence is variable, and half of the children in K-12 education are below average in their ability to learn what is being taught to them. Consequently, programs such as No Child Left Behind and the like are destroying education by perpetuating the lie that all children are equal in their ability to learn.
Not true, although many people agree with you. I am a special ed teacher in Ohio. What most people do not know is that the creators of Ohio's standardized tests take into account that these assessments will be completed by both general and special education students.
1/2 the children are below average in their ability to learn what is being taught? I'm sure you have a reference, but based on what I have seen in Cleveland, I disagree. Granted, there are kids who do not have the cognitive ability to pass the standardized tests required by NCLB, as a result, these students are given alternative assessments.
For students who are not given alternative assessments, and cannot pass standardized tests, they do not have below-average ability. From what I have seen they are victims of overcrowding in schools.
The problem in education, at least from what I have seen in Cleveland, is a ridiculous teacher/student ratio that is further hindered by students who have behavior problems.
For example, the teacher next to my room last year (Mrs.Smith) was in charge of a 28 5th grade students. With good preparation, diligent work in creating lesson plans and grading papers, working nights and weekends, Mrs. Smith could have handled this class. However, what Mrs. Smith can't handle is students getting up and leaving the room without being excused, or students throwing things at each other in the middle of class, or students having side conversations whenever they want, or boys slapping girls and vice versa.
Send them to the office, or suspend them you say?
Absolutely Mrs. Smith had students disciplined and suspended. Do you think this mattered? It didn't because the same students would come back to class, cause disruptions, and get in trouble all over again. In the end, Mrs. Smith spent a lot of her class time dealing with these issues, and as a result every student in the class suffered. - Sure, some did well on the standardized tests but not as well as they could have.
Why do I tell all of you this cliche of a story?
Because the problem in education is teacher/student ratios. We need more teachers but there is one glaring problem: Money.
The way to get more money is not by getting rid of unions or older teachers who garner the most wages. Because, to be honest with you, you are all lucky to have the teachers that you have in some of these districts. Yes, I'll say it again, some teachers make 80,000 + a year and you are lucky they show up everyday. Why? because they take a lot of abuse from kids and parents. I'll save you all the drama.
Having wrote that, I'll get back to my point, it is a reality in this country that people of all races in all areas sometimes have more children than they can give adequate attention to. This leads to children who do not have adequate social, behavioral, or academic skill. - In many cases, this has nothing to do with ability. Some kids can't behave and when you have a class of 28 fifth grade students, and 5 of whom can't behave, your time and energy to teach are compromised.
This isn't a liberal or conservative problem. It has nothing to do with politics. The answer is simple: we need to hire more teachers for all these kids but we can't do that because there isn't enough money to pay them - and the people who are to blame here could care less about this cycle. If they did care the cycle wouldn't exist in the first place.
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The result is an inefficient education system that is not serving the best interest of either the below average students or the academically gifted students. And as long as the conservatives and liberals continue to bicker over unions and parenting, this most fundamental problem is never going to be solved.
The education system that I grew up with back in the 80's wasn't inefficient at all. This system is the same one in place where I work now. We can blame the education system and politicians all we want, we can blame parents all we want. - None of it does us any good.
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I disagree with your conclusion that more teachers are needed.
When I was in school, 30 to 33 students was the norm for a class. The teachers had NO problem handling that. Buck up, or shut up.
Today, that isn't the case, I hear of teachers griping about having 22 students in a class. And their union griping about it also.
Know what? If parents show that education is important, kids will learn. So, the problem isn't class size, not at all. It's not that we need more teachers. It's not that we need more administrators............no, the problem lies at home.
Honestly, the more we blame others for things, the worse this country gets.
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Arch, you've confused me here Quote:
I disagree with your conclusion that more teachers are needed.
You say this because you had large class sizes when you were in school. Did you go to a school in an impoverished urban district? Because if you didn't then your comparison is invalid. I clearly wrote that the core problem in failing schools is teacher/student ratio accompanied by kids who have behavior problems.
If you're telling me that you had 30 kids in a class and 5 of them had behavior issues to the point that they brought in social workers to talk to these kids, then you had the greatest teachers on the planet.
We both know this wasn't the case and that you made an invalid comparison. No problem, because I value your opinion.
Then you wrote that
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no, the problem lies at home.
Which is precisely what I said. We have people of all races having children that they cannot attend to, as a result, many of these kids have no respect for authority and have no respect for the boundaries of others. - You can't tell me that you don't see how this carries over into classrooms, and you also can't tell me that with 28 kids total, 5 of whom consistently exhibit distractive behavior, lessons and teaching plans are not affected.
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Honestly, the more we blame others for things, the worse this country gets.
You make this remark after you rightly blamed parents? It's okay to blame people, but it's not okay to end it with blame. We have to think of creative solutions to these problems, and in urban areas, the solution is to hire more teachers so that the kids who have behavior problems cannot distract students who are there to learn. - That is coming from somebody with primary experience. The real dilemma here is finding money to pay for extra teachers, before I get you started, I agree that innocent taxpayers should not be held accountable for everything.
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The way I worded that first quote was not clear. I was presupposing a standard academic curriculum that is targeted to the statistically average students; hence my assertion that half of the students are below average. In reality, the difficulty of the curriculum would change the proportion of students who are above average and below average. I would guess that most curriculums in K-12 actually fall on the negative side of that scale, which is exactly the problem. Furthermore, I didn't say intellectual ability is the only reason why the education system is failing. I said it is the most important reason why it is failing. Of course there are other factors, but what difference would it make if there was a 1 to 1 ratio between a teacher and a below average student. Do you think that ratio would compensate for the child's lack of academic ability?
As for my sources, I read a lot of psychometrics. Look into Charles Murray on this topic. He co-authored The Bell Curve with Richard Hernstein back in the 90s. It is a groundbreaking work that was, predictably, vilified by just about everyone outside of the scholarly community because it dared to argue that IQ is, for the most part, a static quantity. That means that there are intellectual tasks that some people simply do not have the ability to accomplish in a competent or consistent manner. And IQ is more than how smart you are. It measures competence in many other categories including interpersonal skills and self awareness. I bet the unruly kids you have to deal with have below average IQs.
Last edited by Mantis; 08/09/12 08:33 PM.
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I bet the unruly kids you have to deal with have below average IQs.
Not true.
I'll use fake names here. Take into account Mike and Sam. Two 4th grade students who received special education services for reading and math last year. By the end of the year, when it came time to take OAA tests, both Mike and Sam tested higher in math than many of their same aged counterparts who were not receiving special education. What this means is that Mike and Sam didn't have low IQ, rather they received specialized intervention and started to perform up to potential. - They outperformed peers who were receiving general education. This was a matter of instruction, not IQ.
With more teachers, we could structure classrooms so that instruction is as efficient as possible.
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What this means is that Mike and Sam didn't have low IQ, rather they received specialized intervention and started to perform up to potential. - They outperformed peers who were receiving general education. This was a matter of instruction, not IQ.
Not necessarily true. It is always possible that a child with an above average IQ is under-achieving for environmental reasons. However, scoring well on a single test does not prove that Sam or Mike have above average IQs. This is because standardized test results are measures of temporary knowledge whereas IQ is a comprehensive measure of life time intelligence and achievement. What you are describing with Sam and Mike is not unaccounted for in the psychometric literature. The standard you are using to assess IQ is too narrow. Now, if you continue to follow Sam and Mike for the next 10 years of their lives and demonstrate sustained improvement in their academic achievement, then your anecdote would be acceptable.
But I'm a little surprised you used this example. I thought most teachers hated standardized tests precisely because they are inadequate measures of academic ability and they distort the academic curriculum.
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It is always possible that a child with an above average IQ is under-achieving for environmental reasons.
I totally agree and feel that is more often the case than simply correlating low achievement with low IQ.
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scoring well on a single test does not prove that Sam or Mike have above average IQs.
No, but in the example I used, these two students showed low math achievement on curriculum based measures and standardized measures at the beginning of the year. Because of this, they received intervention. By the end of the year, they tested in the accelerated range compared to same aged and grade peers in the norm group, which includes students in and out of their school. Point is, they weren't succeeding because of their environment. After being placed in a classroom with fewer students, and less distractions, they scored in a higher percentile than many peers who didn't receive intervention.
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This is because standardized test results are measures of temporary knowledge whereas IQ is a comprehensive measure of life time intelligence and achievement.
This doesn't mean that low standardized test scores correlate to low IQ scores.
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But I'm a little surprised you used this example. I thought most teachers hated standardized tests precisely because they are inadequate measures of academic ability and they distort the academic curriculum.
Many teachers hate standardized tests. However, we have to look at some of the positives. First, these tests hold teachers accountable. Standardized tests hold teachers accountable by checking students' comprehension of content standards that have been prescribed by the state. Standardized tests also inform instruction. They do this by notifying teachers which students pass and which students fail. After viewing pass/fail scores, teachers can determine if most students passed on particular standards, and/or if most students failed on particular standards. Teachers can then determine which instructional methods worked, and which methods needs to be altered.
Additionally, and I mention again that the majority of students who receive special education services, students on IEP's, have to take the same standardized tests as their peers. By scoring well on these tests, students with disabilities prove that they are capable of achieving on the same level as their non-disabled peers.
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Legend
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You say this because you had large class sizes when you were in school. Did you go to a school in an impoverished urban district? Because if you didn't then your comparison is invalid. I clearly wrote that the core problem in failing schools is teacher/student ratio accompanied by kids who have behavior problems.
If you're telling me that you had 30 kids in a class and 5 of them had behavior issues to the point that they brought in social workers to talk to these kids, then you had the greatest teachers on the planet.
Ok, I'm confused Muni... you cite these behavioral problems as a factor in why the whole class is disrupted (something I agree with by the way)... my confusion stems from this.. if you go from a class of 28 in your example to a class of 22... are these kids going to magically STOP throwing paper at each other? Are they going to magically STOP talking to each other or smacking each other?
I get that the smaller the class size the easier they are to manage but disruptive kids are going to be disruptive whether they are in a class of 28 or a class of 10 if the kids don't care and the parents don't care...
Unless your solution is to add a teacher and take all of the disruptive kids from each 3rd grade class and put them all in the same room so the other kids can learn.... and we know that's not going to happen.
I had a girlfriend 20+ years ago with a father who was a teacher and he constantly complained that he spent 80% of his time dealing with 5-10% of his kids because they were disruptive and/or academically couldn't keep up.... and this was in a small town with small classes.... This is not a new problem.
yebat' Putin
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This doesn't mean that low standardized test scores correlate to low IQ scores.
Well, I think there is a correlation. The question is how strong is the correlation. But if you meant that standardized test scores cannot establish a measure of IQ, then I agree with you. The only thing that can do that is an actual IQ test.
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Ok, I'm confused Muni... you cite these behavioral problems as a factor in why the whole class is disrupted (something I agree with by the way)... my confusion stems from this.. if you go from a class of 28 in your example to a class of 22... are these kids going to magically STOP throwing paper at each other? Are they going to magically STOP talking to each other or smacking each other?
What I'm saying is that behavior can be shaped. It is not shaped by writing detentions and suspending kids - these methods work when kids have parents that administer consequences at home.
In order to shape behavior, educators need to monitor kids and figure out what causes their problematic behavior. From there, teachers can alter the students environmental and/or peer surroundings in hopes of decreasing and eventually extinguishing the problematic behavior. To decrease and extinguish negative behavior, students need continuous positive and/or negative reinforcement, and they also need to receive meaningful consequences. One teacher cannot do this and teach meaningful lessons. These are the types of things that can be accomplished by a skilled second educator in the classroom. Many schools have this model in place, but many schools do not have the money to hire that second educator. I say we need more teachers, but I understand that the money isn't there.
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Thank you for the clarification... it makes more sense now. It also is one of those things I struggle with.... why should I pay higher taxes or give all of this money to education that wouldn't be needed if parents did their job.
Then again I say that about a lot of things.. the legal system, police officers, jails, public assistance, welfare, food stamps, car insurance, unemployment.... none of it could go away completely, but all of it could be cut DRAMATICALLY by better parenting.
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