I have to laugh at younger guys who think that the players today are so much better. Times have changed and so have the rules.
Players are faster today, well maybe. How can that be proved? Todays players wear equptment that weighs hardly anything. Hell, they won't wear freaking knee pads because they are afraid to lose .0001 of a second in their forty time. Shoulder pads back in the day were heavy and uncomfortable. There was heavy hip pads and shoes that were like wearing boots on the field.
If you want to compare todays player to old school guys, let them put on the old equipment and see how they function. Take a guy like Bob Hays and let him wear new Nike shoes, and light weight pads, and see if he is not just as fast as todays players.
Lets see todays players at WR have the same effect when being hit and pulled all the way down field, then catching the ball and being leveled by Jack Tatum.
Technology has made todays players faster, not genetics. Also, back in the day players didn't make a half a million a year to sit the bench. Starters had to have other jobs, thus they didn't train for 365 days a year for football. Todays players are coddled from Pop Warner until they play in the pros. I wonder how many of todays players had ever had to experience "bull in the ring" at practice. If you don't know what that is, you too were coddled at practice.
Players back then were pounded at practice as much as they were in the game. They played with far inferior equipment and had far less conditioning and time for it. Lineman had to keep their hands closed while blocking, and clotheslining a running back was common practice. I would like to see how long todays player would last on the original "astroturf" which was basically thin carpet over concrete. I bet knee pads would come back very quickly.
Comparing todays game and the game 30 years ago is impossible. Too many variables at work. How many of todays players could play both ways? Heck, most don't play whole series without getting a break.
IMO, if yesteryear's players had the advantages today's players have, as far as conditioning and equipment developement goes, I would have to argue that old school players could very well have been a more superior group.
With that in mind, I would put Dick Butkus, Mike Curtis, and Wiilie Lanier up against any LB playing today. And don't let me even start on RBs......Brown, Sayers, Czonka, Kelly.
Football is football, but just because today's players appear to be bigger and faster, that doesn't mean they are better players.
As far as Haden goes, he didn't listen to the coach, and took some disipline, I see that as a good thing. Today's players have too much disrespect for coachs. I like that Shurmur put his foot down. I'm sure Joe learned a little respect from the situation.
Quote: Players back then were pounded at practice as much as they were in the game. They played with far inferior equipment and had far less conditioning and time for it.
add in the advancements in the training/conditioning/nutrition and I think that is all anyone is saying as far as players being "better" today.
nothing to do with the actual skill here. just that they have more time and more science behind the training to do it.
Quote: add in the advancements in the training/conditioning/nutrition and I think that is all anyone is saying as far as players being "better" today.
nothing to do with the actual skill here. just that they have more time and more science behind the training to do it.
I can live with type of thinking, but you would not believe how many of the younger guys I work with are convinced that the players are so much better nowadays, just due to size and speed. Those things are factors, but they do not make a player great. Skill and natural ability is the thing that matters.
Could you imagine Jim Brown training the way they do now?
Quote: add in the advancements in the training/conditioning/nutrition and I think that is all anyone is saying as far as players being "better" today.
nothing to do with the actual skill here. just that they have more time and more science behind the training to do it.
I can live with type of thinking, but you would not believe how many of the younger guys I work with are convinced that the players are so much better nowadays, just due to size and speed. Those things are factors, but they do not make a player great. Skill and natural ability is the thing that matters.
Could you imagine Jim Brown training the way they do now?
I think he would be "ordinary."
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
Quote: add in the advancements in the training/conditioning/nutrition and I think that is all anyone is saying as far as players being "better" today.
nothing to do with the actual skill here. just that they have more time and more science behind the training to do it.
I can live with type of thinking, but you would not believe how many of the younger guys I work with are convinced that the players are so much better nowadays, just due to size and speed. Those things are factors, but they do not make a player great. Skill and natural ability is the thing that matters.
Could you imagine Jim Brown training the way they do now?
I think he would be "ordinary."
Hahaha +1
An athlete is an athlete, some of those "old timers" would rip it up in today's NFL, with logic dictating that superior training/conditioning etc, would make them even better than they were in their time. It's a pretty short sighted argument, could be made both ways, like modern players aren't 'tough enough' to play in the game 20+ years ago.
Quote: Technology has made todays players faster, not genetics. Also, back in the day players didn't make a half a million a year to sit the bench. Starters had to have other jobs, thus they didn't train for 365 days a year for football. Todays players are coddled from Pop Warner until they play in the pros. I wonder how many of todays players had ever had to experience "bull in the ring" at practice. If you don't know what that is, you too were coddled at practice.
Players back then were pounded at practice as much as they were in the game. They played with far inferior equipment and had far less conditioning and time for it. Lineman had to keep their hands closed while blocking, and clotheslining a running back was common practice. I would like to see how long todays player would last on the original "astroturf" which was basically thin carpet over concrete. I bet knee pads would come back very quickly.
I absolutely loved Bull in the Ring. but my favorite was Blood Alley. I just don't understand what's happened. I was sitting around a fire with friend who also coach youth football, and one of them had to cancel his game this weekend because 7 kids had concusions on his team. I mean what's the deal? it's not like todays average 8th graders should be that much different from when we were growing up. I think I knew one kid that got a concushion in all the years I played. ( I stopped as a sophmore).
With all the concern with safety in todays NFL, Why are players allowed to leave out there knee, Hip or any other pads at all. it should be a fine. For the love of god, some teams can fine a player for the wrong socks, but not leaving protective gear off entirely?!?
"He who buys what he does not need steals from himself."
I think in football the players of yesterday could still hang with the players of today because in football strength and speed are only going to take you so far. Out of all the American professional sports, football requires the most mental ability and toughness to be great. Not to mention its the game where the individual has the least amount of impact on the game. Insert Jerry Rice onto the Colts in place of Marvin Harrison when the Colts were in their offensive prime and I think Rice has an even better career. I still think Barry Sanders runs all over the league in 2012 just as he did in the 90s.
You take the NBA though, and I think the whole argument changes. You trade Elgin Baylor (best SF in the 60s decade, no?)and LeBron James and I think you're talking about LeBron's 120 point game and not Wilt's 100 point game, his 12 straight championships, etc while we talk about is Baylor even good enough to make the olympic team in 2012? I strongly dislike James as a person but there's no denying his freakish size and athleticism is like nothing ever seen before, and in the NBA that matters so much more than it does in the NFL. Dwight Howard is a mental midget but he's one of the most dominant players we have right now. No way that happens in the NFL, being big and strong just isn't enough. If you could be as dumb as Howard and be a star in the NFL, we'd be celebrating Ben Gay and Chaun Thompson et al taking us to the Super Bowl with their freakish athletic ability.
Same thing with baseball. You let the guys take roids without any regulation and they start breaking each others home run records. You take them away and we're not seeing the 70 homer seasons anymore. An example of how pure physical strength has such a profound impact on the game.
In the NFL I think the intangibles are too important and its what makes the old greats still great today. In the NBA and MLB not so much.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
What's the league waiting for? Are they gonna wait til the last minute to announce a suspension, or god help us Tony Grossi really didn't have a clue and he gets fired?
Quote: What's the league waiting for? Are they gonna wait til the last minute to announce a suspension, or god help us Tony Grossi really didn't have a clue and he gets fired?
I'm with you Frenchy, I can't for the world understand why we don't have some closure on this from the League, one way or the other.
Quote: What's the league waiting for? Are they gonna wait til the last minute to announce a suspension, or god help us Tony Grossi really didn't have a clue and he gets fired?
I'm with you Frenchy, I can't for the world understand why we don't have some closure on this from the League, one way or the other.
if we are to believe all the conjecture that Grossi and others have floated around (again, there has to be something to it, but what is unknown as it could be a million things):
it is likely that Haden and the NFLPA are saying that the positive test should be included in the recreational drug bucket while the NFL is saying that it should be in the PED drug bucket. it could take more time than usual behind closed doors (or in the open or even potentially in court) to get this hashed out (pun intended).
look at how long it took the StarCaps guys to get their punishment doled out. if you fight and have even a slightly legitimate claim to that fight, then it can drag on for awhile.
I guess we are going to have to wait until the opener.
I understand what your saying, but if there is a question as to what category the speculated/alleged abuse falls under, then that should be handled threw the appeal process. No?
Quote: What's the league waiting for? Are they gonna wait til the last minute to announce a suspension, or god help us Tony Grossi really didn't have a clue and he gets fired?
Shhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's just try to sweep all of this under the rug.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
Quote: I guess we are going to have to wait until the opener.
I understand what your saying, but if there is a question as to what category the speculated/alleged abuse falls under, then that should be handled threw the appeal process. No?
which is likely what is going on right now. we only get to know what Haden and his agent tell us or have leaked (the NFL is very good at not leaking this stuff themselves because the players could take it to court if they did).
Quote: What's the league waiting for? Are they gonna wait til the last minute to announce a suspension, or god help us Tony Grossi really didn't have a clue and he gets fired?
I'm with you Frenchy, I can't for the world understand why we don't have some closure on this from the League, one way or the other.
Well, if there is nothing to the story other than Grossi flinging poo against the wall, we're not going to hear anything at all from the league - why would they address a made-up rumor? Until - UNLESS - something actually does come down from the NFL, the silence is the response.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
Quote: What's the league waiting for? Are they gonna wait til the last minute to announce a suspension, or god help us Tony Grossi really didn't have a clue and he gets fired?
I'm with you Frenchy, I can't for the world understand why we don't have some closure on this from the League, one way or the other.
Well, if there is nothing to the story other than Grossi flinging poo against the wall, we're not going to hear anything at all from the league - why would they address a made-up rumor? Until - UNLESS - something actually does come down from the NFL, the silence is the response.
I guess there in lies our dilemma in not knowing weather or not it is indeed true.
Quote: What's the league waiting for? Are they gonna wait til the last minute to announce a suspension, or god help us Tony Grossi really didn't have a clue and he gets fired?
I have no idea, but every time someone posts and bumps this thread I think we finally have our answer.
Quote: I think if it was all about nothing though Haden would have come forward and called BS by now.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Among other things, why should - or would - an athlete spend time addressing every rumor that comes out? There's nothing to be gained by them in any way by doing so; their best play is to just not comment on it and let it all play itself out..... then, later on if asked about it, mock the person that floated the rumor. If it's true... then even more reason to say nothing.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
Quote: it is likely that Haden and the NFLPA are saying that the positive test should be included in the recreational drug bucket while the NFL is saying that it should be in the PED drug bucket. it could take more time than usual behind closed doors (or in the open or even potentially in court) to get this hashed out (pun intended).
That was the impression I had gotten from the articles as well.
When reports surfaced that Browns cornerback Joe Haden had failed a drug test -- supposedly it was for Adderall -- it was thought that Haden would have to miss four games, a devastating consequence for his team.
We hadn't heard much since then, but Tuesday morning, team president Mike Holmgren told 92.3 The Fan (via the Cleveland Plain Dealer) that Haden had been suspended and that he already had gone through the appeals process. Now, the Browns are waiting to hear back from the league to see if that suspension will be overturned or shortened.
“I suspect if we haven't heard by now, we'll have him for the first game,” Holmgren said.
Holmgren also said he wasn't sure if that theory actually is legit (I suspect that it isn't).
What is legit is the worry about how Cleveland will cope without Haden, who is the Browns' best player on defense. Dimitri Patterson apparently will fill in for Haden when his suspension begins, but he clearly is a huge drop-off from Haden.
From what I understand of the story is that he took a performance enhancer in the offseason while on vacation....so by rule, he should be out 4 games. However, the appeal is that it was recreational usage and it would fall under the substance abuse policy....and with it being his first offense, no games. Since most of this stuff happens behind closed doors, we don't really know if this is taking the normal amount of time. I hope, for our sake, it's the recreational usage penalty.
I also wonder if the league can still suspend him 1-2 games even if the appeal is overturned. So, they agree it falls into the recreational category but slap him with a 1-game penalty just because (for doing it, for making them work through the appeal, for hitting the "police blotter", for being stupid, etc.).
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
Hopefully the team has been preparing for this eventuality. I will say that it makes me nauseous to think of someone like Sheldon Brown covering Desean Jackson. Might have to put Skrine out there just to match Jackson's speed (if that's possible). I'm not sure Dmitri Patterson is up to it.
That being said, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Jackson doesn't strike me as the most physical player in the world. What if we just play press coverage on him, really make him work to get off the line? Just throwing things out there.
Well here is the chance for Skrine, Wade, and Patterson to show what they can do.
The suspension will hurt no doubt, but I like our young DBs...I dont think the drop off will be as stark. If Brown stays where he belongs and we replace Haden with a backup, we'll be fine.
"It has to start somewhere It has to start somehow What better place than here? What better time than now?"
If your star DB is going to be suspended now is the time to do it. These replacment refs are allowing aggressive DB play like we saw in the 80s. They aren't flagging everything in sight and I love it lol. Jam, hold and run ahh the good ole days.
Quote: I also wonder if the league can still suspend him 1-2 games even if the appeal is overturned. So, they agree it falls into the recreational category but slap him with a 1-game penalty just because (for doing it, for making them work through the appeal, for hitting the "police blotter", for being stupid, etc.).
Haven't you heard? The league will do what it wants when it wants. If he wait until the last minute to suspend him, he also hurt the team by not giving them time to prepare for game day. And people can save the bull crap. You can't game plan around starting two guys at the same position for one game without some compromise in preperation.
One man to interprit, decide and punish. The most un-American way possible. The players were foolish for ever allowing this and if he's not careful, he's going to make more enemies out of fans than friends.
But at this stage, I don't think he really cares about much but the power to wield the axe.
The Czar cares not about fairness, but power.....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: If they haven't announced the suspension by this point he's playing. We are going to go through this next week as well.
Well of course! We are under the King's bidding. He does what he wants, when he wants. Drama King? It would appear so........
or Haden appealed the suspension and the NFL and NFLPA are trying to come to an agreement on the matter?
Haden failed a test and is trying to say it was recreational (0 game suspension) instead of PED (4 game suspension) even though the drug came under the PED category. I think we're sort of lucky that the appeal is dragging out this long as it means we have a fighting shot at getting a reduction.
Quote: If they haven't announced the suspension by this point he's playing. We are going to go through this next week as well.
Well of course! We are under the King's bidding. He does what he wants, when he wants. Drama King? It would appear so........
or Haden appealed the suspension and the NFL and NFLPA are trying to come to an agreement on the matter?
Haden failed a test and is trying to say it was recreational (0 game suspension) instead of PED (4 game suspension) even though the drug came under the PED category. I think we're sort of lucky that the appeal is dragging out this long as it means we have a fighting shot at getting a reduction.
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