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GM may have electric car breakthrough
Published: Thursday, August 09, 2012, 5:37 PM Updated: Thursday, August 09, 2012, 6:10 PM
Associated Press business staff By Associated Press business staff
Dan AkersonView full sizeAssociated Press fileGeneral Motors CEO Dan Akerson
DETROIT -- A small battery company backed by General Motors is working on breakthrough technology that could power an electric car 100 or even 200 miles on a single charge in the next two-to-four years, GM's CEO said Thursday.
Speaking at an employee meeting, CEO Dan Akerson said the company, Newark, Calif.-based Envia Systems, has made a huge breakthrough in the amount of energy a lithium-ion battery can hold. GM is sure that the battery will be able to take a car 100 miles within a couple of years, he said. It could be double that with some luck, he said.
"I think we've got better than a 50-50 chance," Akerson said, "to develop a car that will go to 200 miles on a charge," he said. "That would be a game changer."
GM's current electric car, the Chevrolet Volt, goes about 35 miles on a charge and has a small gas motor that generates power to keep the car going after that. Few competitors have electric cars with more than 100 miles of range. Tesla Motors' Model S can go up to 300 miles, but it has a much larger battery and can cost more than twice as much as a Volt. Nissan's Leaf and Ford's Focus electric cars both claim ranges of around 100 miles, but that can vary with temperature, terrain and speed.
Envia said earlier this year that its next-generation rechargeable lithium-ion cell hit a record high for energy density. The company said the new battery could slash the price of electric vehicles by cutting the battery cost in half.
GM Ventures LLC, the automaker's investment arm, put $7 million into Envia in January of 2011.
The GM meeting, which was broadcast on a conference call to employees, lasted about an hour. A participant allowed a reporter from The Associated Press to listen.
"These little companies come out of nowhere, and they surprise you," Akerson said in response to a question about GM's strategy on gas-electric hybrid vehicles.
Akerson said the company is looking at hybrids, all-electric cars, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and natural gas vehicles, as well as developing more efficient petroleum-powered engines.
"We can't put all of our chips on one bet," he said. "We've got to look at them all."
© 2012 cleveland.com. All rights reserved.
http://www.cleveland.com/business/index....t_river_default
If this comes to be reality, what will the stock in GM that the USA owns be worth? anyone wanna guess?
One has to wonder, if we'd have done like so many people wanted us to do and just let GM Fail and go under, would this story even be possible?
Personally, I can't wait to hear how someone else would have done it, or all those that would have been out of work would have found other jobs and how our economy would be so much better had we let them and Chrysler fail.
have at it.. but you will never convince me.
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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So, this "breakthrough" will allow GM cars to go as far as the competition's cars in a couple years....and may go farther "with some luck"? Thank God we bailed them out. Color me excited. 
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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One has to wonder, if we'd have done like so many people wanted us to do and just let GM Fail and go under, would this story even be possible?
Personally, I can't wait to hear how someone else would have done it
Yeah. Other people already are doing it. And somebody else would've bankrolled the company that GM is bankrolling to develop their technology.
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One has to wonder, if we'd have done like so many people wanted us to do and just let GM Fail and go under, would this story even be possible?
Personally, I can't wait to hear how someone else would have done it
Yeah. Other people already are doing it. And somebody else would've bankrolled the company that GM is bankrolling to develop their technology.
Cars with 100 mile range get about 60 in reality. The Tesla costs way too much and doesn't get that range either. The Volt COULD approach "100 mile" range, but they keep it in a certain charge operating level to try to keep the batter life very high and it doesn't REQUIRE a charge making it a transition charge. This really is a case of "stats are for losers." Just keep that in mind when reading about ANY electric vehicle...
It doesn't matter though, people will criticize the company for anything because it's the "cool" thing to do. If they don't adapt to the future, you'll be sitting their criticizing them again for being so behind the times. THey are damned if they do, damned if they don't.
#gmstrong
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It doesn't matter though, people will criticize the company for anything because it's the "cool" thing to do. If they don't adapt to the future, you'll be sitting their criticizing them again for being so behind the times. THey are damned if they do, damned if they don't.
I think it's more of a case of some folks going to extremes trying to defend this GM fiasco.
If you read the article, it sure sounds like a piece of media sensationalism. This "breakthrough" will give GM a car that, in a few years, will match what their competitors are doing now.... and only "with some luck" it will be more.
When you title an article claiming a breakthrough, you should probably have something a little more exciting than that.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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I'll be excited when they can get 400 miles per charge, and a full recharge takes about as long as it takes for a full sit down lunch at Cracker Barrel.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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DETROIT -- A small battery company backed by General Motors...
That should have told you all you need to know.
The Government should NOT be in the auto business...nor should it be backing small companies who are trying to get to already-existing technology.
Like most things, the government has no business backing such a thing...let the market figure it out...which is what is happening anyway while we flush money down the toilet.
If you are not already convinced that the right thing to do was to let GM fail and be absorbed by the market, then you never will be convinced. You've been around government and business long enough to know that throwing money at something does not make poorly-run ideas suddenly work better.
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Personally, I can't wait to hear how someone else would have done it, or all those that would have been out of work would have found other jobs and how our economy would be so much better had we let them and Chrysler fail.
have at it.. but you will never convince me.
Boy, I can't wait to engage in a debate with somebody that open-minded. 
yebat' Putin
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It doesn't matter though, people will criticize the company for anything because it's the "cool" thing to do. If they don't adapt to the future, you'll be sitting their criticizing them again for being so behind the times. THey are damned if they do, damned if they don't.
No they aren't. But for decades they were way behind the times in quality, technology and style, it was not until they faced bankruptcy as a result of their ineptitude and got a huge infustion of government money before they realized they might want to consider doing things differently. Only time will tell if they have truely learned a lesson or if they will get back into good times and become complacent again.....
Here's the deal, make good cars that you can sell at a fair price, make a profit and be self-sustaining... and they won't hear a peep of criticism out of me.
yebat' Putin
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I'll be excited when they can get 400 miles per charge, and a full recharge takes about as long as it takes for a full sit down lunch at Cracker Barrel.
ick. who would drive 400 miles to a cracker barrel?
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I'll be excited when they can get 400 miles per charge, and a full recharge takes about as long as it takes for a full sit down lunch at Cracker Barrel.
ick. who would drive 400 miles to a cracker barrel?
Obviously somebody's never been...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I'll be excited when they can get 400 miles per charge, and a full recharge takes about as long as it takes for a full sit down lunch at Cracker Barrel.
ick. who would drive 400 miles to a cracker barrel?
haha. I have actually done so. Driving Cleveland on the way to Arizona. There isn't much off the highways in Kentucky and their biscuits and gravy is tasty 
#gmstrong
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Unbelievable pancakes. Just sayin.
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Their potato hash browns are to die for.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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It doesn't matter though, people will criticize the company for anything because it's the "cool" thing to do. If they don't adapt to the future, you'll be sitting their criticizing them again for being so behind the times. THey are damned if they do, damned if they don't.
I think it's more of a case of some folks going to extremes trying to defend this GM fiasco.
If you read the article, it sure sounds like a piece of media sensationalism. This "breakthrough" will give GM a car that, in a few years, will match what their competitors are doing now.... and only "with some luck" it will be more.
When you title an article claiming a breakthrough, you should probably have something a little more exciting than that.
First off, the ones claiming 100 mile range are lying. Secondly, the Tesla uses a much larger battery, thus much heavier. This is claiming more bang for the buck in the battery as far as size goes. Again, their competitors are not ahead of them when it comes to electric cars. If anything, the Volt gives you something the others can't in that you can drive it whenever you want. Batteries in depleted mode? Forgot to charge? Doesn't matter, the gas generator will keep you going and with very good fuel efficiency.
#gmstrong
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I'll be excited when they can get 400 miles per charge, and a full recharge takes about as long as it takes for a full sit down lunch at Cracker Barrel.
That is the holy grail. Hopefully we can get there, but we can't get there without transition technologies and people willing to buy mediocre products before then (just like any other technology)
Who wants a car that can go only 100 miles on a charge (even if it gets the fully listed estimate)? I'll take a car that goes 40 miles on a charge and continues on infintely on gas thereafter over that any day. Right now, my daily commute is about 25 miles roundtrip. When I lived in Columbus it was 44. I could drive for months around here without putting another drop of gas in it. Back in cbus it would last me a long while.
The problem is the gas savings still don't outweight the additional cost. Unless the battery prices come down it's just doesn't make sense fiscally, although its becoming more practical every day.
Nothing would make me happier then having an affordable all electric sport vehicle. The torque on that thing would be amazing. It's not there yet, and I have to admit, I would miss the roar of a V8.
#gmstrong
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It doesn't matter though, people will criticize the company for anything because it's the "cool" thing to do. If they don't adapt to the future, you'll be sitting their criticizing them again for being so behind the times. THey are damned if they do, damned if they don't.
No they aren't. But for decades they were way behind the times in quality, technology and style, it was not until they faced bankruptcy as a result of their ineptitude and got a huge infustion of government money before they realized they might want to consider doing things differently. Only time will tell if they have truely learned a lesson or if they will get back into good times and become complacent again.....
Here's the deal, make good cars that you can sell at a fair price, make a profit and be self-sustaining... and they won't hear a peep of criticism out of me.
Yes they were, for decades. They made a marked improvement in the time leading up to the bailout, but couldn't get out from the bad decisions that cost them dearly.
I'm not a big fan of any of the bailouts, but I do find it disgusting that the white collar companies (the banks) seem to get off a lot easier in people's eyes. The gov't set up a dangerous precedent bailing anyone out and hopefully it is done.
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If anything, the Volt gives you something the others can't in that you can drive it whenever you want. Batteries in depleted mode? Forgot to charge? Doesn't matter, the gas generator will keep you going and with very good fuel efficiency.
So basically it's really a hybrid more than an all-electric vehicle?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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So, this "breakthrough" will allow GM cars to go as far as the competition's cars in a couple years....and may go farther "with some luck"?
Thank God we bailed them out. Color me excited.
The only electric car that can go further is the Tesla.. it can go 300 miles on a charge.. But it's a 2 seater, and has a price of about 125K
I would suspect that they will have a set up like the Volt.. Batteries that can take you a couple hundred miles and a gas engine to recharge from there.. But they didn't say that.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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If you are not already convinced that the right thing to do was to let GM fail and be absorbed by the market, then you never will be convinced
No, I am not convinced it would have been the right thing to do, in fact, I think it would have been idiotic and shortsighted..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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If anything, the Volt gives you something the others can't in that you can drive it whenever you want. Batteries in depleted mode? Forgot to charge? Doesn't matter, the gas generator will keep you going and with very good fuel efficiency.
So basically it's really a hybrid more than an all-electric vehicle?
Yes, but it's a different type of hybrid (series). Most hybrids out there today are parallel hybrids, the gas and electric engines world together to make the car go. In the case of the Volt, it's pure electric (gas engine doesn't come on) until the charge is down to a certain threshhold (about 30% I believe) before the gas generator kicks on, which doesn't drive the wheels but generate a charge to run the electric motors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain
Last edited by YepTheBrownsRule; 08/10/12 01:17 PM.
#gmstrong
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If anything, the Volt gives you something the others can't in that you can drive it whenever you want. Batteries in depleted mode? Forgot to charge? Doesn't matter, the gas generator will keep you going and with very good fuel efficiency.
So basically it's really a hybrid more than an all-electric vehicle?
No, a hybrid is a vehicle that runs on gas but uses the electric to supplement and to keep the car going when it's idling, etc.. it switches back and forth all the time. It also uses the gas engine to recharge the batteries, you don't have to plug it in... ever.
An electric car runs exclusively on electricity until the electricity dies out then it switches over and runs on gas exclusively until the batteries are recharged. I don't know for sure, but does the gas engine recharge the batteries in an electric car? I don't think they do.
That would be great if you could run 40 miles on electricity, then 100 on gas while it recharged the batteries then back to electricity.... but I don't believe electric cars are set up that way.
yebat' Putin
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If anything, the Volt gives you something the others can't in that you can drive it whenever you want. Batteries in depleted mode? Forgot to charge? Doesn't matter, the gas generator will keep you going and with very good fuel efficiency.
So basically it's really a hybrid more than an all-electric vehicle?
No, a hybrid is a vehicle that runs on gas but uses the electric to supplement and to keep the car going when it's idling, etc.. it switches back and forth all the time. It also uses the gas engine to recharge the batteries, you don't have to plug it in... ever.
An electric car runs exclusively on electricity until the electricity dies out then it switches over and runs on gas exclusively until the batteries are recharged. I don't know for sure, but does the gas engine recharge the batteries in an electric car? I don't think they do.
That would be great if you could run 40 miles on electricity, then 100 on gas while it recharged the batteries then back to electricity.... but I don't believe electric cars are set up that way.
Electric cars are just that, electric cars. There are no gas engines. The Tesla, the Leaf, the Miev (think that's mitsubishi's electric) are pure electric, there are no gas engines in them.
At this time, the Volt does not recharge the batteries to make it pure electric again. While that would seem to make sense, the point is also to get off of gas as soon as possible and back to grid energy which is considerably cheaper than running on the gas. Basically the cost to completely re-charge off the gas generator would be much more expensive then getting it plugged back in, so you don't want to go any further than you have to on the gas generator (though you could drive the whole life of the car on it if you wanted).
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So it uses gas to extend it's range, therefore it does not rely solely on electric and thereby is a sub-breed of a hybrid.  Doesn't matter is the engine propels the car or the engine adds power to the motors to propel the car, it still uses electric and gas to do what it needs to do. Sorry, I'm not paying an extra 5-10k for a car that will only go 40 miles on a charge then be back to using gasoline anyway. My ride to and from work is 39 miles total. When I can go back and forth to work a 3-4 days between charges, and not worry when I decide to run errands on my way home that I will run out of charge, I'll consider one. And they have to improve the design, the thing looks dorky to me. All that said, I see the possibility for the technology to improve quickly now. it usually takes someone or something to break the ice and make it worth the investment for companies to research advancements. Battery technology is going to improve as will component technology (ie: high intensity LED lights versus incandescent or HID, using less power to do the same thing), running the AC compressor of the rotation of the wheel during travel to lessen the load on the battery, maybe even an alternator to run the other car components. The interest from consumers is there now, and the designs are getting better. The Prius may have been the revolution starter, but it was damn ugly when it came out, now they have hybrid technology across many models. It will only improve from here. Add in a quick charging system and infrastructure and it can all take off. Like I think Peen said. I want to travel my 300-400 miles, then while I take a short break and be able to recharge and go on.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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So it uses gas to extend it's range, therefore it does not rely solely on electric and thereby is a sub-breed of a hybrid.
Umm yes, its a series hybrid, just like I said (read the link).
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Doesn't matter is the engine propels the car or the engine adds power to the motors to propel the car, it still uses electric and gas to do what it needs to do.
It doesn't need gas for most people's daily commute. 80% of the people drive 40 miles or less per day. Is it a perfect range? Of course not, that's why battery technology will be advanced.
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Sorry, I'm not paying an extra 5-10k for a car that will only go 40 miles on a charge then be back to using gasoline anyway. My ride to and from work is 39 miles total. When I can go back and forth to work a 3-4 days between charges, and not worry when I decide to run errands on my way home that I will run out of charge, I'll consider one.
You don't have to worry about it with a volt. The gas would kick in for those extra few miles you'd need on those days (if it's even needed based on your driving style). What you're speaking of is call range anxiety, and its completely eliminated in a parallel hybrid since you won't be dead in the water if it loses charge.
Again, fiscally there isn't a case for saving money with one. I agree, it's priced too high (not overpriced) for mass adoption. In time that will come down.
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And they have to improve the design, the thing looks dorky to me.
Yes it is. I want this technology in a van or SUV (preferably van) more than anything. I couldn't care less what the volt looks like, I'm not ever getting one because it doesn't fit my family's needs as far as size. The technology on the other hand is great. It's a bridge/gap technology to push things further and aleviate people's range anxiety, since it doesn't exist with it.
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All that said, I see the possibility for the technology to improve quickly now. it usually takes someone or something to break the ice and make it worth the investment for companies to research advancements. Battery technology is going to improve as will component technology (ie: high intensity LED lights versus incandescent or HID, using less power to do the same thing), running the AC compressor of the rotation of the wheel during travel to lessen the load on the battery, maybe even an alternator to run the other car components.
bingo.... electronic powersteering is another...
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The interest from consumers is there now, and the designs are getting better. The Prius may have been the revolution starter, but it was damn ugly when it came out, now they have hybrid technology across many models. It will only improve from here. Add in a quick charging system and infrastructure and it can all take off.
Yep, prius basically started it, but it needs to evolve to this type of technology as well (and somewhat is if you read about the plugin models that are coming out or were at least in concept)
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Like I think Peen said. I want to travel my 300-400 miles, then while I take a short break and be able to recharge and go on.
I'm good with something for my daily commute and the option to go as far as I want after as long as the price is affordable and I save money. it's not there yet. Some day someone will figure out that holy grail though, but it won't happen without these gap technologies.
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Again, fiscally there isn't a case for saving money with one. I agree, it's priced too high (not overpriced) for mass adoption. In time that will come down.
Which is why just the government and the true die-hards are buying them now... because money isn't driving their choice.
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That last part is really what prevents a lot of people from buying these things IMHO.
I want to be able to jump in my vehicle and go. If I need gas, I can stop and fill the tank in 5 minutes.
If I have an electric vehicle, then I need to leave it plugged in for how long to have it recharge? What happens in the event of an emergency if the car isn't charged, but you need to use it?
If they had some sort of easily changed batteries where you could charge one and snap it in and pull the other to charge up, that might be a solution. Unfortunately, that's very unlikely. Also, we will never get the bulk of our energy from solar or wind. I read that we get about 14% of our total energy from hydro, solar, wind, and geothermal. We're still burning a lot of fuel to generate electricity. We'd have to really beef up our power generation if we were to go to predominantly electric vehicles, along with completely rebuilding the nation's power grid to accommodate the strain such vehicles would put on the system. Heck, out west they are subject to blackouts and rolling blackouts right now. What happens if they double demand? Also, how would we balance even more energy need with the need to generate "just enough" power?
There's a lot more to going electric on cars than just building the cars ... even if they could be extremely efficient, and could be sold at a price people would pay without government subsidies.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'll be excited when they can get 400 miles per charge, and a full recharge takes about as long as it takes for a full sit down lunch at Cracker Barrel.
ick. who would drive 400 miles to a cracker barrel?
LOL.....you don't like Chick-fil-a and now you put down Cracker Barrel.
So Steve, where do you eat?? Maybe I can tell you how crappy that is. 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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That last part is really what prevents a lot of people from buying these things IMHO.
I want to be able to jump in my vehicle and go. If I need gas, I can stop and fill the tank in 5 minutes.
If I have an electric vehicle, then I need to leave it plugged in for how long to have it recharge? What happens in the event of an emergency if the car isn't charged, but you need to use it?
In a car like the volt, it doesn't matter. You can drive as long as you want with the gas generator. That's why it's called a gap, or transition technology. You get the best of both. You charge it, can drive however X amount of miles (speaking on the technology) and then the gas generator kicks in. Forget to charge? Who cares? Just drive it anyway. The gas generator will get you there.
You're all completely correct that people will not want a pure electric vehicle at this time. The range isn't there. The charge time isn't there. The cost isn't there. None of that will improve though unless people put R&D into it. Even if GM doesn't improve the range of the volt (they will), as long as battery prices and efficiency go up, the car will easily become economically viable for a lot of people. I believe when it first came out the battery pack cost was about $10k. A few years from now, it may only be $5k, be much smaller, weigh much less, charge much faster, and be much more efficient. Think of it as pre-paying for that amount of gas for the amount of years you want to keep it. Once you hit that break even point (wherever it is for you), it starts to make sense... until then it's like an iPad. It's for people who want to feel better about themselves.
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Sounds like hippy talk to me
King
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I'll start to be excited when they stop making these hybrid cars so ugly. I don't know if it's just me, but every time I see a leaf or a Toyota hybrid I think the car looks like crap. No offense to anyone on here that may have one, but I've always thought that. They all seem to have an odd shape. Sometimes I wonder whether or not auto makers are intentionally making cars ugly. I mean look at these: Cube Element Kia Sol Azteck, even though Walter White had one on Breaking Bad. 
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Quote:
So, this "breakthrough" will allow GM cars to go as far as the competition's cars in a couple years....and may go farther "with some luck"?
Thank God we bailed them out. Color me excited.
In government circles, it's called Project X (for those who have read the book, Atlas Shrugged, this is obvious). For those that haven't, it sucks to be you.
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Legend
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Just clicking
I think a lot of opposition talk about this technology is because of GM being bailed out by Obama.
I'd lay odds that had McCain been elected, the same exact things would have taken place and it would suddenly be alright and this car would be a product of a smart president doing what's best for the country.
But feel free to call me wrong.
I'd have applauded McCain or Bush or whoever the president was from whatever party for saving GM and Chrysler.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Depends on your budget. While I agree some of them are ugly, some of them are downright cool looking. Chevy Volt Tesla Model S I had other cars listed but for some reason a lot of the sites aren't allowed here and I don't feel like searching for alternative websites lol. I think a lot of cars are moving away from the "hybrid" look of the early 2000s. Technology has evolved so they can put smaller batteries in and make some cars look really sleek. The technology is still relatively new but I imagine in 10-20 years electric cars will be way ahead of where they are. A friend of mine's father has just started a hydrogen energy company right here in Ohio so I think the fact there are different alternatives and people investing in them does nothing but help us get away from oil and traditional gas models.
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
Just clicking
I think a lot of opposition talk about this technology is because of GM being bailed out by Obama.
I'd lay odds that had McCain been elected, the same exact things would have taken place and it would suddenly be alright and this car would be a product of a smart president doing what's best for the country.
But feel free to call me wrong.
I'd have applauded McCain or Bush or whoever the president was from whatever party for saving GM and Chrysler.
You mean like this?
[image]http://strumors.automobilemag.com/files/2008/09/10932753.jpeg[/image]
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Quote:
I think a lot of opposition talk about this technology is because of GM being bailed out by Obama.
Daman...I believe you could be right...
...even though it was a Republican President who began the bailout of the American car companies and wrote the first bailout checks to those companies, in Oct. 2008.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
I think a lot of opposition talk about this technology is because of GM being bailed out by Obama.
Daman...I believe you could be right...
...even though it was a Republican President who began the bailout of the American car companies and wrote the first bailout checks to those companies, in Oct. 2008.
I don't know if I'm right or wrong about that to be honest, it just feels that way.
I've noticed that if Obama does it, it's wrong, if anyone else does it, there's an excuse and reason for it.
I've noticed that Bush started the bailouts and he was in office when the country took a huge dump, but the minute Obama stepped into the Oval, he was to blame.
Let me make something very clear here, I'm no longer a big supporter of Obama, he let me down just like Bush did in his second term., and I'm determined that I don't get fooled again (although, given my choices, I doubt I'll be able to avoid getting beat up again, Romney will tell who ever is in front of him what they want to hear so for my money, he's a phoney)
I want a president that isn't afraid to take on the extremes of either party and do what's best for the majority of Americans no matter the political cost.
I just don't think that person exists. at least I don't see him or her in front of me anywhere.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Dawg Talker
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I want a president that isn't afraid to take on the extremes of either party and do what's best for the majority of Americans no matter the political cost.
I believe you just described Ron Paul.
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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Legend
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Legend
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I believe you just described Ron Paul.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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j/c
What happens to these batteries when they are spent?
Maybe we can store them in perpetuity in the abandoned, mineral rich coal mines that Obama won't allow us to harvest.
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Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... GM may have electric car
breakthrough
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