DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum "These guys suck .. errrr don't suck so bad ......."

I thought you knew that when you put on a Browns uni everything only takes 6 months. If only we had Matt Leinart! He threw for 405 yds on Sunday, never mind the 1 TD and 2ints and the fact they lost. ET, they'll never get it. They all wonder why all they've seen me do is kick and scream to get a line and run the ball 35 times a game - with the RBs (not the QB). Then we can insert a QB.

2004 - Rudi Johnson 1454 yds and 12 TDs
2005 - Rudi Johnson 1458 yds and 12 TDs
2006 - Rudi Johnson 890 yds and 8 TDs (pace approx 1300 yds and 10 TDs)

Hint hint hint...

South Park! Good stuff...you friggin' atheist!

That's right, South Park - I love th e show - even though they steal all their ideas from the Simpsons- tree house of horror - Dolphins took over the earth.

how long do they say it takes to determine if they are a bust?

BLEDSOE? ROFL!

Ok yeah, Tom Brady worked out ok, so did Romo, but what about JP Losman?

Everyday I get more and more uneasy about the QB situation. Especially if Simms re-signs with Tampa Bay (NOTE: I DO NOT want to sign him for a long-term deal and instantly put him in as the starter, perhaps a contract similar to what Brees got, a "one year deal" with bonuses with less money attached than Brees would be fitting)

Atlanta might be sending Vick packing, so that takes Schaub out of the market, even then, Atlanta wants a king's ransom for him and WE CAN'T DO THAT. Plus, Savage has shown he's never gonna give up draft picks, especially high ones.

If Simms goes off the market, we're screwed. Only guy I can possibly think of is a trade for Brian Griese (did he sign a long term deal in Chicago?).

Whether or not we go down the path with Frye, WE NEED INSURANCE. I WANT someone breathing down his neck. Rivers breathing down Brees' neck turned him into the player he is today. And if Frye can't handle the pressure, then he's too emotionally fragile to play the QB position, especially in pressure situations on the field. But as we've seen all year long, Frye's risilient, and if it works out, great! If not, we need insurance.

I will never understand the Chris Simms infatuation with this board - you just said we are screwed if he goes off the market - before he lost his spleen he had 1 TD and 7 ints and a 46 rating. Please Tampa keep him.

I'm not infatuated. I saw what he did the year before and think he's an option as an insurance policy, not a long term starter.

But who knows, maybe we get lucky? Either way, like I said, we need to cover our asses. We can't go into next year with the same 3 QB's we have.

There's a story behind the 2004 Palmer stats...

No one would have been calling for Palmer's head, if Palmer were playing for the Browns with his rookie stats. Palmer's first year was an 8 - 8 season...that was following an 8 - 8 season by Kitna. Palmer looked much better than Kitna had the previous year and you could tell the difference in potential between Kitna and Palmer. Plus...Palmer won half his games, had 18 TD passes and an equal number of INTs.... Something Frye hasn't done.

After so many years of losing, it finally looked as though the Bengals were showing improvement... Palmer had learned on the bench and looked much better than anything the Bengals had had since Boomer... The Bengals offense scored points and never went 3 games without scoring a touchdown... Plus the Cincy coaching staff didn't give in to the demands to play a rookie before he had the chance to learn...

Browns fan would have done the same. If Frye looked much better than Dilfer, there would be no problem now... If Frye won half his games there would be no problem now... If Frye's offense had scored some touchdowns in the past three games, there would be fewer problems now....

One of the reasons the fans started wanting Holcomb to start over Couch was that when Holcomb first replaced Couch...due to injury...Holcomb produced in a big way. Unfortunately Holcomb couldn't maintain that level of play and chaos ensued.... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As of yet, Frye has not produced in the same way Holcomb did. Do you seriously think that if Frye had the same kind of game against the Steelers game before last, that Holcomb had in the 2002 playoff game (also a losing effort) we would be having this conversation today...? No...we wouldn't be.

Don't blame the fans.... They want to see progress.... Progress that we've been promised, but have yet to see.... All the fans have seen, are things getting progressively worse..... That's why the fans are upset with Frye.

YTown, I agree with your stance, and I see the same things you are seeing.

The amount of stats that are being thrown around in this thread are mind boggling. I think stats can support or go against any view and can be slanted anyway people see fit. Instead of stats, I trust what I see with my own eyes. When Frye is put in position to make plays, he doesn't make them. That's what I see.

I think the coaches are to blame as well, and I think Frye can succeed with the right coaches and system as a 'manage the game' type of qb, but overall I just don't think Frye is a starting caliber NFL quarterback, in general.

Only if Savage is a complete idiot. If he's any kind of GM with any football knowlege, he'll do what most parents do when their 3-year-old has a tantrum in the middle of the kitchen floor- he'll ignore it, and move on to issues of real importance.



And, if the team's built right, he won't ever have to be. Fact is, if the team's built right, we donn't even need a single pro bowler on the entire squad to "win it all." The first and most important fix is simple- get us what we've never had... a decent OL. And that has nothing to do with Frye's competence, or lack thereof. It's simply something we need to field a respectable team- no matter who's under Center.



And you might get what you expect... but I doubt it. Most people know pretty accurately what Charlie is/is not. What some more astute fans know is that he's no more effective in our offense than Tim Couch, Kelly Holcomb, Jeff Garcia, etc because of the very same thing which has held all those QB's back for years..... an OLine.

But you conveniently ignored this glaring consistency in your scenario, and even tried to use it in your setup to malign Frye's effectiveness. Slick, but not slick enough, I'm afraid.

Don't get me wrong, YTown... I don't slurp Charlie on any level, and still don't know exactly what he'll be for us. That isn't my point. My point is that your post is so 'agenda-driven' that it only convinces you,,, and others who already believe as you do. Since I wasn't already on your team, I was looking for something that would convince me. Swingandamiss........!

Bottom line is this: until we fix the OL, every and any QB we place behind that line will have a built-in excuse for failure. And we'll never know "the real truth" about any of them- past, present, or future.

Until we get a real OL, NO QB CAN BE TRULY EVALUATED. And that includes Charlie.

Pick apart Frye if you want, but his story is no diff from any other that has been or will be written.

Your agenda is obvious, and your premise is weak, this time.
We have bigger fish to fry than Frye.


.02

Again .. similar stuff was said in Dallas ...... their line sucked .... Bledsoe's a sitting duck behind these bums ..... they couldn't pass block to save their lives ..... blah blah blah blah ......

Once again I will challenge any and all to watch every single offensive play from the game against the Bengals. Look at what is really happening on every play. Not what your assumptions were ... but what's actually happening on the field. Really look at the blocking, the pocket that many say is entirely non-existent, look at how many times the Bengals bring 5 or 6 ..... and Frye still has decent time under that kind of blitz. Really look at what happened on the field without any preconceptions, or like it was another team's game. I know that I couldn't believe what I saw. There were pockets. There was time to make a play. Not 10 seconds per snap .... but no QB gets that, and especially not against a 5 or 6 man rush. There was sufficient time to make a read and throw. Frye wasn't hit while dropping to throw .... and he wasn't forced to run in most cases. One sack was directly on the RB (Droughns) who completely whiffed on a block. One was a corner blitz that wasn't picked up by anyone, and which the QB has to account for. Hell, he actually rolled into another sack by rolling left when the RG and RT both had their respective guys on the ground behind Frye, and the right was wide, wide, wide open. It was amazing .... and it's all there if we just look.

I don't hate Frye. I wish he was the answer, because that's a better outcome than him not being the answer. Unfortunately, the evidence is building rapidly that he's just not the guy.

When the Rats made their SuperBowl run, didn't they have a similar run of lack of production on O.

While it is interesting (the comparison of Dallas OL and their QB) there are too many problems with our team on the offensive side of the ball at this point in time. Our lack of production in the running game, too many ints, dropped passes, poor QB play, inferior run/pass blocking, bad play calling..the list can go on.

In another post someone referenced "blowing up complete units". If we are going to compare OL with Dallas then I would be interested in know .......Who on or OL should be kept? Who needs to be replaced? Where and who do we upgrade?

For our first 5 years back the OL has been mostly ingnored. This year PS made som pick-ups but unfortunately too many injuries at Center and started the problem rolling. Already out there is the fact that Cincy had 3 back-ups playing against us and did not seem to miss a beat. We they have been drafting and acquiring OL for the last several years, but could this also speak volumes of our lack of talent in our defensive front 7?

Charlie may or may not be the answer, but surely his is not the only problem.

y'know, as I have read this board for several years now... I find most of the FA debates funny... It seems from reading them over and over that there are 4 types of FAs for the Browns to choose from..

1. Those who suck.
2. Those who are decent but overhyped.
3. Those who are good but are over-the-hill and won't fit our rebuilding.
4. Those who are good but we can't afford.

This is what Phil has to choose from....

Yet teams find value in free agency every year.

Hopefully Phil is married, because if he is then he knows how it works... because it's like shopping with a woman....

that which she can have, she doesn't want; and that which she wants, she can't afford.... <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[color:"white"] Every comparison is a joke when it doesn't yield the results some are looking for... there are factors other than QB and OL.. but that's what everybody on here wants to talk about..
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this has nothing to do with results ... its IMPOSSIBLE to due to an accurate comparision like Y-town would like based on just OL's and QB's .. the RB's and WR's and TE's are to much of a factor to JUST BE TOTTALLY IGNORED and make the conclusions Y-Town wants to make ... the results (at least for me are irrelivent) .. hell i stated i pretty much agree with Y-town .. proof the results are irrelivent to me .. therefore voiding your statment above .. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

god bless them .... they can waste all the time they like talking about IRRELIVENT things ... not my problem ... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[color:"white"] Success is a relative term Diam... are we talking "deep into the playoffs with a shot at the Super Bowl" success... or are we talking "6-5 right now and not talking so much about the draft" success? The first is unrealistic... however the second is not.
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6 - 5 ... *LOL* .. NOT EVEN CLOSE ... there is not a QB in the NFL that could have this team at or near 6 - 5 ... and the OL is playing worse than Frye .. Frye is the #2 problem on this offense .. not the #1 .. sorry but its true ...

U really believe that Charles is SOLEY RESPONSIBLE for 3 of our losses??? WOW .. U give me 2 AVERAGE OLman at LT and LG and this team could be 6-5 .. replacing Charlie with an avg, QB would yield one more win AT MOST ... i choose to take a LT and LG over a RG and LG becuase for this team I would rather have an OK side as opposed to an OK middle ...

[color:"white"] This is why Ytowns comparison is NOT inane [/color]

ya it is ... <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[color:"white"] this is the question about Charlie that Ytown is trying to answer... does he help mask the deficiencies of the OL or does he make them look that much worse? [/color]

he does both .... his mobility saves their ass an awful lot ... he holds the ball to long (LIKE 95% OF THE OTHER qb'S IN THE LEAGUE ARE ALSO GUILTY OF) more than he should and that hurts them ....

I would say his mobility helps them more than his holding the ball to long hurts them .. but in Y-towns very simplistic ananlysis the key ways that charlie hurts this OL dont show up ..

his lack of arm strength allows teams to shorten the field .. therefore making it harder to run ... BUT at the end of the day ... this OL just doesnt block well enough or have the mobility to be anything but a VERY INNAFECTIVE run blocking unit .. so although Charles HURTS THEM in this sense ... THEIR OWN DEFICIENCES WOULD KILL THEM ANYHOW ..

[color:"white"] As I told ytown in a PM.. this is my plan to fix our qb situation.. first in the offseason we sign Bledsoe, then in the draft we take some guy, doesn't matter who, to play qb in the 7th round... then next year Bledsoe plays, then the following year we start with Bledsoe and go to the new guy after 4 games... Bledsoe got hurt and 6th round Tom Brady emerged.... Bledsoe goes to Dallas and is ineffective and UDFA Tony Romo emerges... Bring Bledsoe here, HE is the key to us finding a quality QB... [/color]

*LOL* .. how can one argue with that logic ... well there is Losman in Buffalo as a counterpoint .. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ytown..no QB could succeed when all entities on the offense breakdown:
1-Oline fails to create running room consistantly
2-Starting RB performance deteriorates as season progresses
3-Wrs-run bad routes-drop passes..act like babies
4-Qb-PROJECT..inexperienced, holds ball too long at times..needs to work on mechanics.