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I could be wrong and it wouldn't be a 1st time,but anyone else not very impressed with the Browns starting LB'ers and LB'ers in general?
In Heckert's 3 years, he has failed to bring in that holy terror at LB.
JMJ and Acho you just don't know about.loads of potential.
but we hear that every year about Browns draft picks.
Mangini didn't do any favors by passing on the USC studs,but hey he took Kaluka Maivia...just brillant.
its just seems like Heckert goes bargin bin shopping for LB's.
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Not justifying his actions, but he never really. Seemed to take LBs high from my recollection.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I think he did the same in Philly,you are right.
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4-3 linebackers fall in the draft, it is rare for one to go top 15 anymore and those that do usually end up being below average types, Kuechly will be the exception. Personally, I view linebackers like guards. I would not take one in the first unless he has hall of fame written all over him and even then I would be hard pressed to take one top 20. I think Heckert generally has a similar philosophy on linebackers.
Heck the way the league is played now, I would probably go with another safety instead of the 3 backers. I think in a few years we will see a shift to one big backer in the middle with 2 upfront safeties one deep safety and 3 corners. Right now, I just don't see the benefit to having linebackers that aren't fast enough to set the edge against these backs with 4.3 speed and lack the ability to cover the TE or slot receiver. Unless you are gonna blitz your OLB's often, I really dont see a great use for them in the modern NFL.
Last edited by Mourgrym; 08/12/12 10:52 PM.
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He doesn't value the LB position. Just look at Phillys defense. Their LBs suck.
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He values the MLB position far higher than he values the OLB position.
He has said that he feel that he can find 4-3 OLB later in the draft on several occasions.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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4-3 OLBs for our scheme have as much value as interior OL...expect more 3rd day picks for C, G, OLB (JMJ, Pinkston, Acho, R.Miller)....and I agree with this philosophy
Look at Curry or Hawk, the last 2 OLBs picked very high, they're AVG...
#gmstrong
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Heckert likes to address our personnel issues through the draft.. he only has so many picks to do so..
I can't fault him for not taking a 4-3 OLB high in the draft.. mid to late round seems about right to me until you get your key positions filled.. ie CB, S, D-Line.. not to mention he had to address the offense this year.
Gocong, Jackson, and Fujita together are not bad. He really had no reason to roll the chips on a high draft LB.
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There are still probably going to be some significant cuts from around the league, I wouldn't be surprised if he grabbed up a vet who can maybe help hold the fort down for a few weeks.
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I wouldn't count on it..... when is the last time that a vet worth having on the team -- that isn't a desperation last-resort acquisition -- was available from training camp cuts??
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
When will Heckert stop bargain shopping for LB's?
Next Thursday.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Quote:
I could be wrong and it wouldn't be a 1st time,but anyone else not very impressed with the Browns starting LB'ers and LB'ers in general?
In Heckert's 3 years, he has failed to bring in that holy terror at LB.
JMJ and Acho you just don't know about.loads of potential.
but we hear that every year about Browns draft picks.
Mangini didn't do any favors by passing on the USC studs,but hey he took Kaluka Maivia...just brillant.
its just seems like Heckert goes bargin bin shopping for LB's.
kendall...if you are basing your opinion on one preseason game, when only one of the starting LBs played...it might be a little too soon or unfair to judge the quality of the Browns LBing corp based on such a small sample.
In today's NFL, you better have LBs who can cover...and the Browns drafted two LBs (JMJ and Acho) who have the speed and quickness needed to cover. Give these young guys some time to develop and see what we have.
Now, with the young guys just beginning their careers and DQJ playing the middle, the Browns could have a very good corp of LBs in the future. It takes time to build via the draft and when a team picks up prospects in the later rounds, it takes some time for them to develop.
Give the coaching staff a chance to develop the talent...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Quote:
I wouldn't count on it..... when is the last time that a vet worth having on the team -- that isn't a desperation last-resort acquisition -- was available from training camp cuts??
Well, I didn't say the guy would be any good, lol.
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Quote:
Quote:
I wouldn't count on it..... when is the last time that a vet worth having on the team -- that isn't a desperation last-resort acquisition -- was available from training camp cuts??
Well, I didn't say the guy would be any good, lol.
and yet 'not any good' would look better than most of the LBers we put out there in game1.
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I am trying to remember ...... wasn't Jamir Miller a late training camp cut? Wasn't Matt Roth cut by the Dolphins when we picked him up? (though not in training camp)
I think that you are probably more likely to find a 4-3 OLB that most positions.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
In Heckert's 3 years, he has failed to bring in that holy terror at LB.
As opposed to all of the other holy terrors we have brought in? The only potential holy terrors we have brought in were in the first round or two of the draft over the last few years... and since we have limited picks, we didn't get a LB yet....
yebat' Putin
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What 4-3 OLB's are terrors? I don't know many..
when I think terror I think 3-4 OLB's.. and 4-3 DE's.. thats where I want my terror.
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What 4-3 OLB's are terrors? I don't know many..
I'd enjoy a Pattrick Willis type MLB.
But obviously, they are rare.
Kendall is once again talking in regards to hindsight.
It's easy to say "We should of drafted Clay Matthews!"
Except that even though he went in the first round, No one (I doubt even Green Bay) knew exactly how good he would be...
But when it's 4 years later, it's easy to say what you would have done...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Quote:
What 4-3 OLB's are terrors? I don't know many..
I'd enjoy a Pattrick Willis type MLB.
But obviously, they are rare.
Kendall is once again talking in regards to hindsight.
It's easy to say "We should of drafted Clay Matthews!"
Except that even though he went in the first round, No one (I doubt even Green Bay) knew exactly how good he would be...
But when it's 4 years later, it's easy to say what you would have done...
BS! I said several times before that draft that he is the ideal 3-4 OLB, that any team looking at 3-4 OLB should have him at the top of their list, and if we weren't able to trade down in that draft we should draft him at #5! (And that Curry was vastly overrated.)
Last edited by CleveSteve; 08/13/12 11:52 AM.
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I'll be honest, I totally wanted Curry, thought he'd be our Ray Lewis for some reason.
Glad he got grabbed infront of us.
Still wish Mangini had gotten more from NYJ (That's my biggest thing against EM, you go fron 5 to 17, and no 1st next year? That would ALMOST make up for the 09 second round..)
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Not really defending him, but you can only do so much each draft. He clearly isn't interested in bringing in FA's much. He has made it clear that his method to build a team is from the Draft (something I might add is the new owners belief as well so you better not expect any changes and get used to this method)
Given his time here so far, he's addressed the DB's, he's addressed the Oline and Dline and the QB and the RB and WR all in the draft.
I would think that next season, all things being equal, it's a safe bet that a killer LB will be a target
Building through the draft takes longer on the front end, but if you do it right (and nobody before heckert has come close given how many starters we have left from other prior drafts) it lasts longer. it helps you build a base or foundation if you will, that you add pieces and parts to along the way.
We are still at that stage where we are drafting players and growing them. That don't happen overnight.
So for the fan that wants it all now and won't accept less, man, you are in for some more frustrating times. For those of us that have waited but understand the method being employed,, still frustrating, but we understand.
How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Quote:
How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
yeah, well the past 13 years have felt like maybe we should have killed the elephant before trying to take a bite.
#gmstrong
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Well I hope he doesn't.
We are slowly filling holes in our team with talent. We are to the point where i believe that we have decent talent at all the starting positions.
The problem is that most of these guys are young so they will look iffy until they get some experience.
For every vet fa you bring in you take a spot from a guy that could develop into something more.
Why pick up a guy that nobody wants, or isn't good enough to start?
You already have that in a lower draft pick that isn't ready. With some time and coaching, that guy might just become more, or be replaced by someone with more talent and potential.
I hope we stay the course. The good players will rise to the top, and the bad players will be replaced. When most of our depth has a few years in the system, and our lower round draft picks aren't making the team, that means we are finally on the right track.
Then and only then can you snag that one fa for the year to fill a glaring hole if you have to. Thats what NE does, because its mostly scheme, and a young guy will be overwhelmed and make rookie mistakes.
How often do you see pitt going after fa's? Only for a decimated O line in my memory.
The good teams develop replacements for the starters, and then get more picks when a fa leaves in free agency. They don't miss a beat, and get more draft picks to boot.
We are not there yet, since we have had a ton of holes.
Think about the fact that we had to devote almost an ENTIRE draft to the offense. Five possible new starters. That is how bad our talent has been.
Next year it will be targeting a few positions....building depth. Linebacker might be one of them, since we have some older guys.
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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Quote:
Quote:
How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
yeah, well the past 13 years have felt like maybe we should have killed the elephant before trying to take a bite.
See here's the problem in a nutshell. Lerner (both of them) made bad choices to run the football team. Our frustration over that time has built up to the point that some folks, unrealistically want immeadiate results.
When you rip the team and front office apart every 2 to 4 years, this is what you get.
We now have a president that's knows football (anyone care to argue that) We have GM that for the most part has had solid drafts and now we have a new owner that has seen, from the inside, the inner workings of a successful organization and as it happens, follows the same line of thinking already established by the current regime..
Should we blame the sins of the past on Holmgren, Heckert, Shurmur and now Haslam? No, I don't think we should.
How many draft picks have the Browns made that are still with the team that were picked prior to Heckert?
Thomas, Jackson, Mack, MoMass and Rubin. How many UDFA's are still with the team from other regimes? Cribbs I think is the only one. (maybe Evan Moore as well, not sure when he joined the team also Ventrone) Was Mitchell drafted or an UDFA?
And the longest tenured browns player of this era,,, Our kicker Dawson.
If I looked at the roster, I could maybe find more.
Point is, 5 to 8 maybe 9 are still here. and when you talk about players that were picked up as UDFAs, (not counting any from this year of course.. way to early to tell), you don't see much there either.
last 13 years, our first round picks that are even still in the NFL are Edwards, Winslow and maybe Faine. Is there any others.
The first 10 years draffts for the most part were just awful and THAT is why we are where we are. Couch, Brown, Green, Warren.. wow. And for the most part, our second rounders weren't much better.
Because Holmgren is at the helm right now, he's gotta accept the heat. But the blame for the mess he inherited belongs elsewhere.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Mike Junkin isn't do anything these days. I heard he was a "Mad dog in a meat market." 
"My signature line goes here."
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Mike Junkin isn't do anything these days. I heard he was a "Mad dog in a meat market."
Yes he is, he's playing with his grandkids. 
yebat' Putin
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Its not on 1 preseason game. Its been something I noticed for a couple years now.
show me a playoff team and I will point out 2 things they do well
1. Idenity on offense.something they do well.
2. A LB core that has at least one consistant playmaker-stud.
I just don't see any one LB that the Browns have right now that plays with violence.
I don't see that OLB that can cover a TE or rush the passer.
since 1999.the Browns have had very very pedestrian LB'ers.
the Browns have the worst set of LB'ers in the AFC North.
I watched this one LB with the Bengals,Darnay Moch,get 1.5 sacks vs the Jets.
Never heard of the guy.
all I hear is have patience. I'm gonna hear the same thing in 3 years.
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Quote:
show me a playoff team and I will point out 2 things they do well
2. A LB core that has at least one consistant playmaker-stud.
Bengals
Lions
Falcons
Patriots
Giants
The SUPER BOWL CHAMPION New York Giants, were starting UDFAs last year.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Its not on 1 preseason game. Its been something I noticed for a couple years now.
show me a playoff team and I will point out 2 things they do well
1. Idenity on offense.something they do well.
2. A LB core that has at least one consistant playmaker-stud.
I just don't see any one LB that the Browns have right now that plays with violence.
I don't see that OLB that can cover a TE or rush the passer.
since 1999.the Browns have had very very pedestrian LB'ers.
the Browns have the worst set of LB'ers in the AFC North.
I watched this one LB with the Bengals,Darnay Moch,get 1.5 sacks vs the Jets.
Never heard of the guy.
all I hear is have patience. I'm gonna hear the same thing in 3 years.
Dont want to put words in peoples mouths but what I think they are telling you, which in turn is what I would tell you, is that Heckert only has so many picks each year. He has almost rebuilt the whole team using the draft to fill in holes and area's of need with players that he felt would A) make the team and B) help the team.
Now he has picked up 2 LB's this year so its not like hes ignoring the position totally. He has found some depth there and in the future when the player and the pick are correct I think he will take a LB in a higher round.
So for me thats why I would say have some patience as the plan moves forward.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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all those teams you mentioned have better LB'ing cores than the Browns.
each team has at least one LB that plays at a high level consistantly.
Bengals..Thomas Howard. Rated by PFF in their top 10 LB'ers with the fewest missed tackles of OLB.
every since the Bengals drafted Rey Mauluga,their defense has been highly ranked and solid vs the run over the last 3 years.
Pats. Jerrod Mayo is one of the best MLB'ers in the AFC. complete stud.
They added Donta Hightower who played at a high level for a National Champion.
Belichek has always had a good eye for LB'ers.
Lions. Stephen Tulloch. Top 10 MLB. De Andre Levy is better than Kaluka Maivia.
all their starting LB'er are more athletic than the Browns starters.
Giants. They have Mathias Kiwanuka. Drafted by the Giants. Not a free agent.
his resume is better than any LB on the Browns.
Micheal Boley can get downhill. Very fundamentality sound.
Plus they added Keith Rivers.
Falcons. Sean Witherspoon is up and coming. Dent is unproven. Stephen Nichols was having a Pro Bowl year before he got shelved.
sorry,all of those teams you mentioned had better run defenses than the Browns.
the current Browns starting LB core has one legit talent..D'Qwell Jackson.
but even Jackson has trouble stuffing playing downhill and wreaking havoc.
But other than him,who is there that could start for any other team?
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So you claim EVERY playoff team has at least one "Playmaking Stud LB"
And then go on to list...
Thomas Howard
Jerrod Mayo
Stephen Tulloch
Mathias Kiwanuka
Wow.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I think his point is, they all have at least a pretty good one who kinda takes charge. The Browns do lack that enforcer on D at the moment. Could become Ward possibly, but as of now they don't have one.
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My point is...
We could win the Super Bowl this year...
And KS will come on and post about how we should of drafted someone we didn't 5 years ago...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
My point is...
We could win the Super Bowl this year...
And KS will come on and post about how we should of drafted someone we didn't 5 years ago...
Wow did that get off topic fast.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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The Browns have no one at LB that can set a tone for the whole defense.
when you think of the Steelers and Ravens defenses,what do you think of ?
their LB's!
everytime the Bengals have made the playoffs under Lewis,their LB'ers have been solid.
when have the Browns ever had a LB'ing core that was just nasty,physical and fast?
the Chip Banks days?
since 99 the Browns LB'ers have been average at best as a group.
how about the Niners..when you think of their defense..the LB'ers.
The Texans..their LB'ers.
up and coming teams.
how about the Packers defense..the LB'ers.
but hey,if you like average,slow,non explosive..the Browns LB'ers are for you.
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Honestly when I think of the Squeelers I think polamalu
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Quote:
I could be wrong and it wouldn't be a 1st time,but anyone else not very impressed with the Browns starting LB'ers and LB'ers in general?
In Heckert's 3 years, he has failed to bring in that holy terror at LB.
JMJ and Acho you just don't know about.loads of potential.
but we hear that every year about Browns draft picks.
Mangini didn't do any favors by passing on the USC studs,but hey he took Kaluka Maivia...just brillant.
its just seems like Heckert goes bargin bin shopping for LB's.
No, you are not the only one that looks at our LB'ers and sighs.... I'm completely underwhelmed by them.
That said, I also realize that you cannot address every single position group in a single year.... and in the two Drafts that he has run for us, he has replaced quite a significant portion of this team and has built some depth. If I had to take a guess, LB will be our biggest weakness heading into next season, and that is what we'll address high in the 2013 Draft.
Beyond that, there hasn't been a ton of "Holy Terror" linebackers for him to have gotten..... actually, I can't even think of one that would fit a 4-3.
Lastly, what the heck does Mangini have to do with a gripe-fest on Heckert??
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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So you claim EVERY playoff team has at least one "Playmaking Stud LB"
And then go on to list...
Thomas Howard
Jerrod Mayo
Stephen Tulloch
Mathias Kiwanuka
Wow.
Mayo isn't some scrub but I agree about the other 3. Kiwanuka is just an extra DE to me.
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What are you talking about? Go away please. Your thoughts are never anything but condoscending remarks to what someone else has said.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum When will Heckert stop bargain
shopping for LB's?
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![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)
