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BEREA, OHIO -- It happens for all of them, sooner or later: the Welcome to the NFL Moment, the moment that smacks every rookie hotshot across the face and says, Son, you're not in college anymore. For Brandon Weeden that moment came during his very first practice in Browns training camp in late July. "We were running a six-yard hitch to my right side," said the Browns' rookie starting quarterback. "Joe Haden was playing cushion, probably eight yards off -- and I just turned my back a little bit to throw a quick hitch out there, and he leaped in, and batted the ball down. I just shook my head and said, 'Wow.' That never happens in college."
It is late afternoon, the hazy Midwestern sun is fading into the distant hills, and here, sitting on a bench just off the Browns' empty practice fields in Berea, Ohio, is the 28-year-old gunslinger who rewrote the Oklahoma State record books a year ago and is now tasked with leading one of the boldest youth movements in recent NFL history. The 2012 Browns are expected to start four rookies on their offense, a unit that will be headlined by Weeden at quarterback and first-round pick Trent Richardson at running back. Over the last 44 years, only three teams have opened an NFL season with a rookie quarterback and rookie running back in the starting lineup. The Browns -- assuming Richardson recovers from knee surgery in time for the start of the season -- will become the fourth on Sept. 9, when they open against the Eagles.
"With the young guys we have, there are going to be growing pains, no doubt," said Weeden. "But let me tell you, I'm so pumped." The Browns' fans are pumped, too: they've been showing up at Berea in record numbers, sweating through their shirts in the 90-degree heat, to catch a glimpse of a team that went 4-12 last season with an offense that was mostly unwatchable.
But this summer there's been a great new energy in the crowds, littered with fans wearing Weeden's No. 3 and Richardson's No. 33 jerseys. The Baby Browns have somehow made Berea a worthwhile stop on the training camp tour. There's the quarterback who passed for 4,727 yards with a preposterous 72.3 completion rate for Big 12-champion Oklahoma State, there's the running back who rushed for 1,679 yards for national champion Alabama. There are also two dynamic rookies at wide receiver: Josh Gordon, who was one of Robert Griffin III's favorite weapons at Baylor in 2010 before a series of incidents ended his college career, and Travis Benjamin, the burner from Miami.
"It is kind of crazy, with all the rookies walking around here, guys you watched on Saturdays on TV," said another rookie, Mitchell Schwartz, an All-Pac-12 offensive lineman at Cal who is expected to start for the Browns at right tackle. "Trent has been on the national stage for a while. Brandon's a little more new to it, but he was spectacular last year -- they beat Stanford [in the Fiesta Bowl], which, as a Cal guy, I love. But it is a little surreal looking around, being teammates with these guys."
There are days in Berea where you see Weeden float gorgeous completions to the corner of the end zone, where you see Gordon make spectacular twisting catches and you see Benjamin's glitzy speed, and you can almost picture a world where the Browns win as many games as they lose in 2012. No one, of course, actually thinks Cleveland could be a real AFC sleeper, not in a division with two titans, the Steelers and the Ravens, and the rising Bengals, and not with a cruel schedule that's the third-toughest in the NFL.
But here's why the great experiment in Cleveland might actually work better than anyone thinks: the Browns will go as far as their quarterback, the most important rookie on the team, can take them. And Brandon Weeden could not be more prepared for this moment.
"I always got so ticked off when people said it was the system," Weeden said. "Well, if it was the system, everyone would be running it and scoring a ton of points."
Weeden is talking about the breathless Oklahoma State offense he led the last two seasons in Stillwater. He put up mind-boggling numbers, but few outside Stillwater seemed interested in giving him his due -- everyone seemed to want to attribute his success to the system at Oklahoma State. "The thing about that," said Mike Gundy, the Oklahoma State head coach, "when Brandon was going to start, I decided to change offenses to fit Brandon's style of play. We tailored the offense to be a pocket-style passing team -- we just eliminated any passes on the move, we just let him sit in the pocket and throw it, and let him make a decision based on what the defense was trying to present him to stop us.
"The reason why we could do that is that there just aren't many guys walking the face of the earth who throw the ball like Brandon does. I've been coaching for over 20 years, I've played against some great ones, but I've never seen anyone like him. He can throw the deep ball on time, he can throw the line drive, he can throw the short ball, the screen, the quick ball. He does it all."
Leading up to the draft, Gundy fielded calls from NFL teams that didn't really know what to make of this quarterback who spent five years in the Yankees minor league system as a pitcher before joining the Cowboys in 2007. "When the scouts and coaches and owners would call, they had concerns about his age," says Gundy. "My opinion was, his age is an advantage, because he's not 22, 23 years old, where those young guys get a lot of money, they're single, they're young, they go out at night, they live the lifestyle. He's older, he's more mature, he's married, he goes home, he studies the game.
"The other thing is that he's very healthy," says Gundy. "He didn't get hit here. He didn't take many hits because we get rid of the ball so fast, because the system's set up that way. There were concerns about him not having many years left. He hasn't taken as many hits as some of these quarterbacks that were taken who were 22, 23. I see him having six or eight years left."
Gundy believes that Weeden's great gift, aside from his arm, is his short-term memory: "That comes from his many years of being a pitcher in baseball -- he talks about it all the time, you give up a home run and you have to go back on the mound and shake it off. He's carried that approach to football. He made mistakes, but he could also wipe the slate clean really fast."
Weeden will rely on that short-term memory this year -- things could get ugly fast as the Browns open up with a brutal stretch of games that includes the Eagles, Bengals, Giants and Ravens. And Weeden and the offense won't get much help from the Browns defense, which struggled last year and has struggled this summer, and might see cornerback Joe Haden suspended after a failed drug test, which would be devastating.
But when it comes to their quarterback, the Browns love what they see so far. They love how he commands the huddle, they love how he isn't afraid to pull guys aside. "I think he's very comfortable in his role as a guy to lead the team," said Browns coach Pat Shurmur. "I see him make progress every practice -- I see him not repeating mistakes. He's got a very strong arm, he's accurate, he's a very fine thrower -- I think that in itself will give him the chance to develop quickly. But we do need to remember: he's still a rookie."
With all the love in Berea, with all the excitement in Cleveland, it may be easy to forget that there will be a lot of losing before the winning begins. But Weeden and the Baby Browns have already given the great football city and the long-suffering faithful there something they haven't had in a long time: hope
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/wr...l#ixzz247wu6wG3
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No one, of course, actually thinks Cleveland could be a real AFC sleeper, not in a division with two titans, the Steelers and the Ravens, and the rising Bengals, and not with a cruel schedule that's the third-toughest in the NFL.
No one but the "Baby Browns" that is 
The higher the odds the sweeter the reward can be 
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No one, of course, actually thinks Cleveland could be a real AFC sleeper, not in a division with two titans, the Steelers and the Ravens, and the rising Bengals, and not with a cruel schedule that's the third-toughest in the NFL.
No one but the "Baby Browns" that is
The higher the odds the sweeter the reward can be
we're too young to know any better 
#gmstrong
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I like it. Baby Browns it is.
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No one, of course, actually thinks Cleveland could be a real AFC sleeper, not in a division with two titans, the Steelers and the Ravens, and the rising Bengals, and not with a cruel schedule that's the third-toughest in the NFL.
No one but the "Baby Browns" that is
The higher the odds the sweeter the reward can be
we're too young to know any better
That correct.
I hope they just go out there and let it lose.
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"I've been coaching for over 20 years, I've played against some great ones, but I've never seen anyone like him."
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"He can throw the deep ball on time, he can throw the line drive, he can throw the short ball, the screen, the quick ball. He does it all."
Last edited by OSGuy; 08/20/12 06:47 PM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I have never seen a team this young. Almost all of our 1st and 2nd teamers have less than 3 years experience on both sides of the ball. That is unheard of.
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All Pro
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thats what happens when you rebuild almost exclusively thru the draft and pay no attention to FA.
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thats what happens when you rebuild almost exclusively thru the draft and pay no attention to FA.
I'll tell you what else happens when you rebuild almost exclusively through the draft and pay no attention to free agency:
Losing.
That was a very hopeful article. When the bullets start flying that optimism will come crashing back to Earth with a thud.
Wake me up when the games count, because I've no use for the pre-season heavy-petting that goes on every year around here...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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even that article says we have no shot this year and that we are "hopefully" building for the future
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thats what happens when you rebuild almost exclusively thru the draft and pay no attention to FA.
I'll tell you what else happens when you rebuild almost exclusively through the draft and pay no attention to free agency:
Losing.
That was a very hopeful article. When the bullets start flying that optimism will come crashing back to Earth with a thud.
Wake me up when the games count, because I've no use for the pre-season heavy-petting that goes on every year around here...
I say garbage. No team I know of has built through FA None. You must build through the draft then you can once you have done that pick up a piece here or there. We are still not there yet and you know it, hence your crashing back to earth comment.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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I want to do what the Packers have done. Build through the draft and make at least 1 or 2 big name signings at some point. Don't just completely blow it off.
Building through free agency gives you the overrated as hell Eagles.
Last edited by candyman92; 08/21/12 12:58 AM.
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If you can build a team through the draft, and then do as you suggest and sign an impact player at an impact position, that signing can be the move that gets you over the hump. The Steelers have done a great job of this, finding and signing free agent LBs who fit their scheme, and who step in for guys who leave and/or retire.
I wouldn't mind us building a team full of very competent players, with a couple of superstars ...... then going out to add another superstar or 2 to complete the team.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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thats what happens when you rebuild almost exclusively thru the draft and pay no attention to FA.
I'll tell you what else happens when you rebuild almost exclusively through the draft and pay no attention to free agency:
Losing.
That was a very hopeful article. When the bullets start flying that optimism will come crashing back to Earth with a thud.
Wake me up when the games count, because I've no use for the pre-season heavy-petting that goes on every year around here...
I say garbage. No team I know of has built through FA None. You must build through the draft then you can once you have done that pick up a piece here or there. We are still not there yet and you know it, hence your crashing back to earth comment.
There's an extremely subtle yet extremely important difference in what you've read and what it really means.
There's a difference between building and rebuilding. Teams like the Falcons are building. Teams like the Browns and Colts are rebuilding. When you rebuild through the draft and ignore free agency, you lose and lose often. So the point is that we're going to lose and lose often, which is in-theme with my weariness of unrealistic yet unbridled optimism.
Ask me next year at this time if we're still rebuilding.
And in something totally unrelated, I just read a phunny-arse quote. This is actually a real quote: Quote:
Virginia's Marquis Weeks caps off his 100-yard kickoff return. "That was just instinct, kinda like running from the cops," said the Senior Tailback.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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If we were a year or two into the process  Then going out and gettign a guy like Mario Williams would of been the "Oh no! Here comes the Browns!" moment... However, I still would of liked to sign Mario Williams THIS year. While he'd make a ridiculous amount of money, he's one of those guys that is "worth" it, AND he would of filled a glaring hole. (RDE) But go out and sign a bunch of middle of the road WRs? (Garcon, Meachem) No thanks. Or signing 30 year old LBs. Yeah, that'll kickstart the defense...  Seriously, somebody find me some names on the This List that would of "sped up" the rebuilding process a great amount...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Blake Costanzo could really help this team!! Oh, wait.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
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I˜like all the good young talent we have acquired the last couple years.
We have some solid vets as well. Unfortunately we only have 2vets on offense for leadership. Thomas N Watson. We have some key exp guys on a¾l lvls of the def. Rubin, Jackson, Brown.
I thnk this year we had a problem w being attractive enough to lure good FA's. I would of definitely loved to add a vet receiver this year. Garçon, manning ham, V. Jackson
Next year we should be filling a hole or two w high profile FA agent. We have some good young talent here... and I thnk we year away from contending for the division and playoffs.
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Even though the odds of winning many games with a bunch of rookie starters (and a bunch of 2nd and 3rd year guys) are not good, there is one fact that I really like about this team being so young: These guys will all grow together and with many of them being roughly the same age and having roughly the same level of experience, they will grow together and identify with each other better than a mix of noobs and old timer vets of all different ages might.
I think the team stands a better chance at success down the road when they all experience the same growing pains together now.
Let's just hope Shurmur doesn't screw it all up with horrible offensive play calling.
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Toad I generally agree with building through the draft equates to loses early in the process but we do have a couple of things in our favor.
Team chemistry is the one thing that has stood out early and well it stood out last year. We competed hard in every game and we also lost something like 7 games by a TD or less.
This coaching staff is loaded with experience.
Now the big one honestly is talent, even if it is young inexperienced talent. Trent Richardson is the perfect back for this era of football in which teams are primarily nickel based.
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I don't find "baby browns" to be an offensive term. To me, I read that as, we're getting there and that it's only a matter of maturing. I kinda like it.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I don't find "baby browns" to be an offensive term. To me, I read that as, we're getting there and that it's only a matter of maturing. I kinda like it.
huh? who said it was offensive?
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There's a difference between building and rebuilding. Teams like the Falcons are building. Teams like the Browns and Colts are rebuilding.
How can we be "re"building when since the return we have NEVER been built to begin with????? 
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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jc...
Finally, someone (SI) recognizes what is being done in Cleveland, rebuilding the team via the draft, is rarely attempted in this day and age, in the NFL.
Those who harp about the losing that has gone along with the rebuilding process that was started in 2010...answer this question...
How much winning was going on in Cleveland before the rebuild started?
The Browns needed it and though the losing has been tough...we are beginning to see a light at the end of the tunnel.
The Browns were bouncing around from one method of building a team to another, with each coaching and GM change. After Mangini got done reshaping the roster with all his "old" Jet players, about the only other option the Browns had not tried was a complete overhaul of the roster and rebuilding via the draft.
This is year 3 of the 5 year rebuilding program that was started in 2010 and the offense was the focal point of this draft, with possibly 5 rookies starting or seeing significant playing time on the offense.
The youth and lack of experience cannot be wiped away this season and with the schedule the Browns are playing, the losing will continue. There is no substitute for experience, but once these young guys have gone through this season, they will be in a position to do something about all the lumps they have taken over the last 3 seasons (10,11,12).
The payoff begins with the 2013 season, once the key players on the offensive side of the ball have gained some experience. But once the experience has been gained, then it is up to the players themselves.
The winning begins when the players have had enough of losing.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I don't find "baby browns" to be an offensive term. To me, I read that as, we're getting there and that it's only a matter of maturing. I kinda like it.
huh? who said it was offensive?
Nobody I know of, I was just expressing my opinion.. I assume that is still allowed on this site right
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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I like the youth movement and I think it will help catalyze the change in attitude this team has needed for years. Weeden is the core of it all, and I think he has the ability to help this offense produce. Greg Little is playing with a chip on his shoulder, and I think he wants to prove he can be a #1 receiver for this team even if he's not a prototypical "#1" type. Richardson/Hardesty will be an intriguing 1-2 punch at HB and if Cameron isn't just another camp story, that combined with our O-Line is a talented young core of offense with a buttload of potential.
I can see why some people are chugging the kool-aid compared to others but I think there's legitimate cause for excitement.
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I dont know how all of this will impact our win/loss record this year but it sure does breed some excitement into a doom and gloom franchise. I am excited to see what these kids can do. Hell this entire team is up cheering for one another and pumped up in preseason like it was the super bowl. It is a college atmosphere and I love it.
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I dont know how all of this will impact our win/loss record this year but it sure does breed some excitement into a doom and gloom franchise. I am excited to see what these kids can do. Hell this entire team is up cheering for one another and pumped up in preseason like it was the super bowl. It is a college atmosphere and I love it.
I am excited too for the same reasons you mentioned, but I just think that the talent level is much improved on this team. Yes! we our young and No! talent in itself doesn't get you "W's", but it points to hope for the future and that's been a missing emotion with this franchise wins and loses aside year in year out.
We know and the team knows the task before us is a mountain of a task and that we will have traverse our way to get to the top. This Division will continue to be a task to overcome.
If and when we reach the summit it will be that much more rewarding if we are built to endure and be competitive in this Division and beyond to the promise land.
Enjoy the Journey folks.
"The start of any journey is the most important step" Plato
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I don't find "baby browns" to be an offensive term. To me, I read that as, we're getting there and that it's only a matter of maturing. I kinda like it.
huh? who said it was offensive?
Nobody I know of, I was just expressing my opinion.. I assume that is still allowed on this site right
 Don't worry, I don't find your username offensive.
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Toad I generally agree with building through the draft equates to loses early in the process but we do have a couple of things in our favor.
Team chemistry is the one thing that has stood out early and well it stood out last year. We competed hard in every game and we also lost something like 7 games by a TD or less.
This coaching staff is loaded with experience.
Now the big one honestly is talent, even if it is young inexperienced talent. Trent Richardson is the perfect back for this era of football in which teams are primarily nickel based.
Sure, Mourg, I fully agree with those thoughts, man. However, I've always viewed you as a realist like myself, even when we've not been on the same page. The realist in you can't look at this team and say that we're going to win 6 games this year. Or can you?
The long-term prognosis isn't what I'm specifically speaking of. Hell, nobody can really honestly look at any long-term scenario and fully believe in it considering the current state of ownership. So the short-term is the pertinent topic at this specific moment. With rookie's likely to start all over the place, and with a roster that is largely void of talent relative to the rest of the league, it's hard for me to see any likely scenarios where this team would make people think they are going to win a lot this season.
Really, I was just doing what I've done every year over the last decade: Dismiss unwarranted optimism because that leads unrealistic expectations which leads to severe and unneeded disappointment.
IMHO we have two true stud talents on offense in Thomas and Richardson. From there I believe we have one proven pro in Mack. But beyond that? Nothing but question marks.
So what about defense? Haden is a solid pro but may miss a chunk of the season. We have one promising guy that I really like in Sheard, one solid-but-undersized guy with an injury history in Jackson, and then what? Some middling guys and bunch of backup-types who are, unfortunately, gonna start.
There's a reason everyone picks us to be dead last not only in our division but in the league. I think 6 wins would be a huge accomplishment for this crew, and that would cause the boys in Vegas to lose money, hehe.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Hopefully the headline on CNNSI following the Super Bowl is something a little like this: "Baby Browns? No. Big Bad Browns Blast Bears to Become the Best."
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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There's a difference between building and rebuilding. Teams like the Falcons are building. Teams like the Browns and Colts are rebuilding.
How can we be "re"building when since the return we have NEVER been built to begin with?????
Hehehe...First, Pete...ouch. Second, if we've never been "built" aren't we then in a perpetual state of rebuilding? Wait... 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Finally, someone (SI) recognizes what is being done in Cleveland, rebuilding the team via the draft, is rarely attempted in this day and age, in the NFL.
Those who harp about the losing that has gone along with the rebuilding process that was started in 2010...answer this question...
Okay, Mac, I'll play.
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How much winning was going on in Cleveland before the rebuild started?
None, which is why there's been teardown's and rebuilds. So what's the point, because I'm not totally sure what you're getting at.
If you're trying to tell people that they should accept losing because that's part of rebuilding, that's fine and correct, but that doesn't mean people can't be upset at all the losing. I honestly haven't seen a large chunk of folks bellyaching about all the losing and doing so in-spite of the fact we're rebuilding.
What I HAVE seen, and in fact I've been a part of, are people upset that in-spite of the fact we're rebuilding in year three of Holmgren's leadership that we're one of the favorites for being the crappiest team in the league.
No amount of reasoning, spin, or excuse-making can dismiss the failings of the Holmgren regime.
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The youth and lack of experience cannot be wiped away this season and with the schedule the Browns are playing, the losing will continue. There is no substitute for experience, but once these young guys have gone through this season, they will be in a position to do something about all the lumps they have taken over the last 3 seasons (10,11,12).
That's sound reasoning.
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The payoff begins with the 2013 season, once the key players on the offensive side of the ball have gained some experience. But once the experience has been gained, then it is up to the players themselves.
The winning begins when the players have had enough of losing.
You're making a huge leap of faith that all the young players we've taken are going to pan out. In a perfect world, sure, that would work, but keep in mind we're attempting to do something at the QB position which has never been attempted before.
I wish I could see two seasons in the future
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,903
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So what about defense? Haden is a solid pro but may miss a chunk of the season. We have one promising guy that I really like in Sheard, one solid-but-undersized guy with an injury history in Jackson, and then what? Some middling guys and bunch of backup-types who are, unfortunately, gonna start.
I'd add Rubin into the solid pro catagory. He'd have been a probowler last year with the same stats on a 'legit' team.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
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You mentioned TR as being one of our stud players, so with that projection context ... I'll offer mine:
I can name 20 rookies or 1st year players that we have added to this teams talent level the past two years
Brandon Weeden
Trent Richardson
Brad Smelley
Josh Gordon
Travis Benjamin
Mitchell Schwartz
John Hughes
Billy Winn
James-Michael Johnson
L.J Fort
Craig Robinson
Trevin Wade
David Sims
Frostee Rucker (new just the same and an upgrade at RDE)
Phil Taylor
Jabaal Sheard
Greg Little
Jordan Cameron
Eric Hagg
Buster Skrine
“Baby Browns” is quite a befitting name.
Add that to some of the hold over’s from past regimes like (and really the only talent we had prior to last year and this new Coaching staff)
Joe Thomas
Alex Mack
D.Q Jackson
Joe Haden
T.J. Ward
Ahtyba Ruben
Phil Dawson
Reggie Hodges
Ben Watson
And yes even Montario Hardesty.
If that’s not a definition of a rebuild then there is no such animal.
PS, know one said a rebuild had to start with a proven entity.
I think that all of these players will represent an upgrade in talent respective to their roles on this team.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
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So where are those optimists around here that expect 8+ wins? I dont see many...I read a lot of posts about being pumped to see this team grow and play together but not that they have a shot at POs....to me it looks like you're fighting a strawman 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,540
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,540 |
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So where are those optimists around here that expect 8+ wins? I dont see many...I read a lot of posts about being pumped to see this team grow and play together but not that they have a shot at POs....to me it looks like you're fighting a strawman
more like 4-5 wins lol
Meh.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,551
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,551 |
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So where are those optimists around here that expect 8+ wins? I dont see many...I read a lot of posts about being pumped to see this team grow and play together but not that they have a shot at POs....to me it looks like you're fighting a strawman
Typical Jango,, taking shots but you don't know who you are shooting at..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: May 2008
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
So where are those optimists around here that expect 8+ wins? I dont see many...I read a lot of posts about being pumped to see this team grow and play together but not that they have a shot at POs....to me it looks like you're fighting a strawman
I agree that there is a big difference in being optimistic and projecting Wins and Loses.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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There's a reason everyone picks us to be dead last not only in our division but in the league. I think 6 wins would be a huge accomplishment for this crew, and that would cause the boys in Vegas to lose money, hehe.
Just ommitting Rubin and Taylor is one thing (your opinion, which I strongly disagree with) but now you don't even got your facts straight...Vegas line is at 5.5 season wins...I'm not sure their jaw would drop if we win 6 since it's pretty much where they EXPECT us to end up....and since Vegas knows that all those clever Toads read way too much ESPN insider (you should have saved your money long ago with those hacks) and put too much stock into their expert opinions setting the bar 5.5 seems to be begging for UNDER money, which in turn means Vegas likes us to win 6+ and probably has us as an up and comer
Yea, you got schooled 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,557
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I think it is impossible to get a gauge on wins and losses with this team. So there is no use debating it. Best to just enjoy each game. Hell I have enjoyed these preseason games. I was really hyped to see the O talent but the young guys on D have been the big shocking surprises for me.
I never thought I would be wowed by Sims, Wade, Fort and Robertson. Hell I didnt think any of those guys had a shot to make the roster lol. Then Hughes has also been a big surprise to me as well because he is much more athletic than I thought.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum CNNSI dubs us the Baby Browns
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