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However the defense will be exposed by all of the points we score, other teams will actually be trying to score on us.
I've never understood this logic. As an NFL player do you not try to score a TD every time you're out on offense? I would never take it easy on the opposing team because I know they would try to blow my team out too. So it doesn't make sense that paid professionals "weren't trying to score on us."
Go back and read the threads on colt - according to SOME on here, the opposing O's were simply trying to not score so they could run time off the clock. According to SOME on here.
Some people need to explain that to me. Why risk the potential for injuries if you're not trying to score or execute the offense properly every play?
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However the defense will be exposed by all of the points we score, other teams will actually be trying to score on us.
I've never understood this logic. As an NFL player do you not try to score a TD every time you're out on offense? I would never take it easy on the opposing team because I know they would try to blow my team out too. So it doesn't make sense that paid professionals "weren't trying to score on us."
You're taking it too literally.
Why risk running a go route that has a ton of potential for a number of things to go wrong when you can just play conservative, grind out the clock, and win a low scoring game ... because you have no fear of the opposing team's offense scoring on you.
That's all it was. It was as plain as day last year, and if you can't see it when watching the games ... then I can't help you. Teams didn't open up their playbook unless they had to. There was no point in taking chances. None. McCoy would go 3-3 for 8 yards on a 3 and out drive. TERRIBLE.
We did not test teams. They knew we didn't test teams. They knew we wouldn't. They knew we couldn't.
That doesn't mean they didn't want to score every time they got the ball.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Yes, other teams just played to go into the 4th quarter with a 6 point lead because... you know, nothing funny ever happens... like a pick-6 or a punt return or a busted play for a TD... they could have been up by 20 but chose not to be. 
yebat' Putin
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When is the last time we had a QB on the field that was the unanimous fan favorite and NOBODY was calling for his back-up? Kosar? It's a fact of life for the Browns and until somebody actually takes the reigns and performs... it will continue.
No it won't. This fan base isn't going to be screaming for "Wallace, Wallace, Wallace!"
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Already is a better QB from which aspect?
Every aspect except speed from what I've read on here.
By whom exactly are you refering to? Other than the aspect of footwork, I think he has a better overall skill set as a QB. But he's coming from the spread and most should surely know we won't have any clue about him until this season is over. ( Not indicating they do, just that they should.)
You look at his first few starts and compare them to his last few starts and see how he has progressed. We've both seen QB's with great skill sets belly flop in the NFL.
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So from his 8 starts the previous year he was able to study and learn the system before being thrown into it the following year?
No. Sometimes you claim I type too much then on the other hand if I don't spell everything out for you, I get called out on that as well. You really crack me up sometimes.
All those 8 games did was give him some familiarity and continuity with his WR's. Or at least it should have.
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IT WAS A DIFFERENT SYSTEM. Yes he should have taken some experience from the first year to the second but knowledge of the system isn't one of them.
Obviously I didn't explain it well enough. As I explained and you seem to agree, his experience with his WR's and O in general should have carried over to some extent from the previous year.
I do agree that nothing in terms of the two systems were remotely similar and Colt was thrown into a new system with little to no real preperation.
But the reality is that the season is 17 weeks long. He had 13 starts and 4 weeks to simply study the system. So while he had no preperation going into the season, as the season progressed, so should some improvement on the part of Colt.
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Oh it's much bigger than that Pit... For most fans, Weeden isn't going to just be compared to Colt last year or Colt his first year or Colt in the preseason... no, no, no....
If Colt is sitting right there on the bench I believe initially that's exactly what will be thought of. It's the connect the dots based on what is in front of their face first syndrome.
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Weeden is going to be compared to Luck, RGIII, Tannehill and possibly the most to Russell Wilson... This is the pool from which much of Weeden's criticism will originate if our offense is bad
If Colt isn't sitting right there for all to see in the stands I agree. I also agree that even if Colt is there, eventually what you have described will happen.
But I don't see how you can possibly miss what is already brewing even beore the first snap of the season? The whole "Colt vs Weeden" thing is already in the vat. I think you are giving this fan base too much credit.
I was in the stands last night. I read four message boards on occasion just to see where the fans base thoughts are. A storm is coming up and if you think this fan bases first thoughts will be something other than what's staring them right in the face, yes, I believe you are giving them FAR too much credit.
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... if it starts to look like from all of the QBs taken that we got the dud... Weeden will hear about it, fair or unfair, that's the way it's going to be....
I'm sure he will. Because this fan base will be far quicker to blame what they see in front of them than actually take it out on the people that picked him and put him in that position to start with.
See, you're starting to get it after all!
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And with Richardson, Little, Gordon, our TEs, Thomas, Mack, Schwartz... the old "everybody else has more talent than us" argument isn't going to get him very far.... we have a lot more talent than any QB we've had in a long time.
Let's see.... Colt had Thomas, Little and Mack.
Shwartz is raw, very raw, but seems to be developing at a good pace.
So if the OL doesn't block well enough for Richardson to run the ball, Weeden gets the blame for that? Or are you saying if we run the ball well and the pass production doesn't get better Weeden gets the blame for that?
Not sure I'm quite understanding exactly what you are trying to indicate there.
And what great TE have we added since last year? you know, one that actually has some history of success?
And seriously, Gordon? I watched a pass get deflected and Gordon had a "fair catch" at it and it went right through his hands. The kid has a nice skill set but fresh ground chuck doesn't describe how raw this kid is.
All of these new rookies are no different than Weeden is. We really have no idea if they will even develop into upgrades over what we had with the possible acception of Richardson.
How can anyone claim such a huge "upgrade in talent" when these guys haven't even seen their first snap in an NFL game? For all we know Gordon may be tokin' it up at a party by week 4!?
Just sayin'
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I personally expect growing pains, I expect some stupid mistakes of people not on the same page, etc... I also fully expect explosiveness like we haven't seen since 2007, I expect to see some big plays and considerable growth... I expect ups and downs... a lot of people aren't going to expect that.
Well as long as you don't expect to see much of that "explosiveness" until the second half of the season, I'd say you have fairly reasonable expectations that basicly mirror mine.
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Where do these fans get this crazy notion that a bunch of rookies are going to come out and light the world on fire? From people telling them it could happen? From seeing other teams do it?
I really don't recall seeing other teams with so many rookie starters at skilled positions on O do much of anything. Maybe a couple of rookies but four, (Weeden, Gordon, Benjiman, Richardson), combined with a rookie RT. Nope, don't recall that one!
Actually people telling them "they can do it"? In regards to coaching staff and FO, I've never actually ever heard one say...... "Nope, they can't do it!". So I believe regardless of talent, all 32 NFL cities hear "They can do it!"
I'm not sure if our fan base feels the draft is Christmas morning and all of their toys are perfectly molded at a factory or that somehow it's The Second Coming and all of their prayers have been answerred. But the best I can tell, it must be one of them.
Then there's the Cleveland sports media. Don't even get me started on that one!
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Well, I think every QB we've had here since 1999 has gotten a raw deal... we have consistently failed to get and keep decent talent around them or build anything sustainable.. Colt falls into that group.
I guess that all depends on what expectations we are discussing in terms of "a raw deal".
If you mean giving them a supporting cast to have winning seasons or a playoff appearances then I would certainly agree with you.
However, if you are speaking in terms of how their own skill set should have developed in terms of what they do have control over, I feel none of them got a raw deal.
It appears the rest of the NFL didn't feel that way either.
Accept for DA. I guess and we see how that worked out.
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I have to admit that I'm mildly curious as to what Colt could do given some time with this new group... but he's not the starter and I can deal with that too.
If at seasons end last year I saw any progess in "Colt the QB' over the first few games of last season, I would be too. But I just didn't and man I really wanted to!
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People have been told by the media, the fans, the teams... quality QB play is the single biggest factor in winning and losing... most fans, most logical fans, will understand that this year it's not as much about winning and losing...
My contention is that the terms "most fans" and "most logical fans", when put next to one another in that way are a contradiction in terms. I've seen very few people try to claim Weeden is The Second Coming.
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but if Weeden can't seperate himself from the dismal boring 9-12 point performances we saw most of last year... then they will respond..
If you are speaking in terms of that much smaller group of "most logical fans" that we actually have, then I agree. But that in no way will silence the masses of others.
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I'm pretty sure nobody expects the Browns offense to rival that of the Packers or Saints... but it should look a whole lot better than the Browns offense from the second half of last season...
Not right away I don't believe it will. If this FO decides to take an embarasing public and emotional QB contraversy gamble that will errupt within the first four weeks of the season by keeping him on the roster, we'll see just how this turns out.
And the Cleveland media and a lot of this fan base will be more than happy to fan the flames.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Other than the aspect of footwork, I think he has a better overall skill set as a QB. But he's coming from the spread and most should surely know we won't have any clue about him until this season is over.
Thats a cop out and built in excuse for failure. Did the Bengals have a clue that Dalton was getting it before the season was over?
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So if the OL doesn't block well enough for Richardson to run the ball, Weeden gets the blame for that?
Of course he does, if we don't run the ball well it's because the defense isn't afraid of Weeden and they are stacking the line to stop the run.... it has nothing to do with blocking.
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Or are you saying if we run the ball well and the pass production doesn't get better Weeden gets the blame for that?
Correct again, its not the lines fault, Weeden is holding the ball too long, not going through his progressions, not exploiting the man coverage....
I didn't make this game up, it was done by others but if this is the game, then I'll play... we couldn't run the ball, it was Colts fault, Colt was forced to scramble for his life, that was Colt's fault too.... I don't particularly like this game but if nothing else, I try to be consistent and play by the rules. 
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But I don't see how you can possibly miss what is already brewing even beore the first snap of the season? The whole "Colt vs Weeden" thing is already in the vat. I think you are giving this fan base too much credit.
I can't control the fans... the job is Weeden's and as I've said, all he has to do is show the signs of why he is the guy... he doesn't have to win 10 games, he doesn't even have to win 8 games, he just has to look like an NFL QB... he has to be better, on average, than Colt was... and based on what I read here, there are middle school kids that could do that.... so surely our first round pick can quickly put some distance between himself and Colt in the eyes of most fans.... I won't say "all" because there are always some nutbags out there who will never be convinced.
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Well as long as you don't expect to see much of that "explosiveness" until the second half of the season, I'd say you have fairly reasonable expectations that basicly mirror mine.
Ummm no. I expect to see some of it pretty much right out of the gate.... the most surefire way to fuel this controversy you are preparing for is for our offense to start off boring, full of ineffective running plays and underneath passes and very few points.... Because then you will quickly get the "Hell Colt could have done THAT." argument....
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I've seen very few people try to claim Weeden is The Second Coming.
He doesn't have to be, he just has to pass the eyeball test at being a level above McCoy...
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If this FO decides to take an embarasing public and emotional QB contraversy gamble that will errupt within the first four weeks of the season by keeping him on the roster, we'll see just how this turns out.
Sounds like you have zero faith in Weeden.
yebat' Putin
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I'm not going to wade into the minutia which has been created with all the quoting and replying. Having said that, the number of voices which were pro-McCoy towards the end of last season have drastically grown silent. There will always be that minority which carry the flag for the last guy who "didn't get a fair shake." We still occasionally hear people talk about how Chuck(it up and pray) Frye would have been a good QB if given enough of a shot.  But by and large, the great majority acknowledge and understand the tools which McCoy doesn't have, and realize that his ceiling was never more than pedestrian starter, which was never going to be good enough to win the division, let alone anything significant in the playoffs. In fact, the great debate isn't whether or not he's in the same class as Weeden in terms of ability, it's whether or not McCoy is better than the perennial backup Wallace.  So where does that leave him in the big picture of the QB carrousel?
No matter if it's McCoy, Wallace, or Lewis, if Weeden looks totally lost, the #2 guy will get all the love from the fanbase. Trading or keeping McCoy won't change that a bit, and in terms of perception, McCoy is no better or worse than Wallace by any measurable and tangible means. Can there be a debate about which guy should be kept when you speak of value versus salary, or potential "upside" (term used loosely)...absolutely, but does McCoy carry enough clout and moxy to be a divisive factor on this team?
Please.
There aren't any teams out there that view McCoy as a potential starter. If there were he'd have been long gone by now. He's probably not even viewed in the same light as someone like Matt Moore, who is your quintessential borderline good backup/mediocre starter.
McCoy or Wallace? Which is better? When that question cannot be definitively answered then you just gotta understand neither guy is going to be a distraction to Weeden's throne.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I think that with McCoy v. Wallace, you - on average - get the same level of play out of both. So, if the level of play is the same, you have to look at the other factors which is age, ceiling, and economics.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I think that with McCoy v. Wallace, you - on average - get the same level of play out of both. So, if the level of play is the same, you have to look at the other factors which is age, ceiling, and economics.
Wallace has no possible upside at this point in his career and colt still has the potential to learn to read D's better at the very least.
It's never really been about which was the best overall option to keep from that perspective. But despite Toads assertion, nobody would be chanting for Seneca.
Let the games begin.....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Thats a cop out and built in excuse for failure. Did the Bengals have a clue that Dalton was getting it before the season was over?
Yes I guess you could use that. Just like I can use John Elway, Peyton manning, Brett Favre and a host of other great QB's. And BTW- how many other rookies at the skilled positions was Dalton working with again?
I guess that depends on who it's coming from because I felt the exact same way about McCoy last year. As a matter of fact even Holmgren said a QB needs at least a full seasons worth of starts before you can make any type of judgement regarding a QB.
At what point did common sense become an excuse?
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Of course he does, if we don't run the ball well it's because the defense isn't afraid of Weeden and they are stacking the line to stop the run.... it has nothing to do with blocking.
If after half way through the season our oponents keep stacking 8 men in the box and Weeden can't capitalize on the 1 on 1 coverage, you may have a point. However, if this OL and a FB/TE can't stop a five man front, your point is moot.
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Correct again, its not the lines fault, Weeden is holding the ball too long, not going through his progressions, not exploiting the man coverage....
If weeden is consistantly locking onto one target as the season progresses, then it will be easy to see. It's not like I haven't seen that before.
And I've already witnessed him put a pass on the money with getting hit hard staring him in the face. I hated seeing him getting hit tht hard but seeing a QB here who would stand in and deliver in the face of adversity was quite refreshing I must say.
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I didn't make this game up, it was done by others but if this is the game, then I'll play... we couldn't run the ball, it was Colts fault,
I don't think Colt had anything to do with it for quite a while. In the end, he may have had nothing to do with it. But if week after week your oponents keep stacking the box and he couldn't capitalize on that, that was Colts fault. And in case you missed it, I stated the same would hold true for Weeden above.
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Colt was forced to scramble for his life, that was Colt's fault too....
No, the times he was actually "forced to scramble" weren't his fault. However, we may disagree on the number of times he was actually forced to, verses the times he felt the need to or did.
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I don't particularly like this game but if nothing else, I try to be consistent and play by the rules.
I really think you're being prety silly. I've never blamed Colt for all of our woes. I do believe he deserves his share of the burden, but no more or less than others who didn't do their jobs.
I thought he deserved a year in the system, after which you look at his first few games in that system verses the last few games in that system. I've asked several times in several posts what people saw any real improvement in Colts game over the course of the season last year.
As of yet? No actual response to that question. Do you have one? Go through his read progressions better? You know, moving his eyes towards different targets? Reading D's so he could find favorable match-ups on given plays?
I don't know so you tell me? What areas of progress in colts game did you see over the course of last season?
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I can't control the fans... the job is Weeden's and as I've said, all he has to do is show the signs of why he is the guy... he doesn't have to win 10 games, he doesn't even have to win 8 games, he just has to look like an NFL QB... he has to be better, on average, than Colt was...
I don't disagree with that at all.
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and based on what I read here, there are middle school kids that could do that.... so surely our first round pick can quickly put some distance between himself and Colt in the eyes of most fans.... I won't say "all" because there are always some nutbags out there who will never be convinced.
I think when we get through the season, that will be a done deal. I don't think it will be a done deal by week 4.
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Ummm no. I expect to see some of it pretty much right out of the gate.... the most surefire way to fuel this controversy you are preparing for is for our offense to start off boring, full of ineffective running plays and underneath passes and very few points.... Because then you will quickly get the "Hell Colt could have done THAT." argument....
So do you actually think that's a realistic expectation or just one that will cause many of the fans to react that way? From comments you made earlier, you said you simply expected to see improvement over the course of the season and expected ups and downs? Which one is it?
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He doesn't have to be, he just has to pass the eyeball test at being a level above McCoy...
I'd say when we look back at weedens season this year, verses Colts last year, we should expect to see that if we expect to conclude Weeden will be the better QB.
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Sounds like you have zero faith in Weeden.
Faith is a strong word. I have faith that given a season to learn the system and get some rythym with his supporting cast, that we should expect to see better results than we did with McCoy.
As with any rookie, I have hope. I see some good tools that if he builds on them, he could be a very good QB. If he doesn't, I still think he will be better than McCoy.
Because I gave McCoy this very same eye test. And McCoy didn't build on his.
All things being equal, since Weeden has a better skill set going into this, even if he doesn't build on his game by anything really measueable, the end result is he has the better tools. Advantage Weeden.
But no, until I see a rookie at least play a season, I don't have faith in anything accept the tools I saw he had to work with going into the season and the hope he can build on that and grow as the season progresses.
Anything else is a fools paradise.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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This entire thread boils down to three concepts.
McCoy does not have the skill set to become a top flight NFL QB.
Weeden has shown more ability the McCoy ever did.
We will see if he progresses, or becomes another failed attempt.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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This entire thread boils down to three concepts.
McCoy does not have the skill set to become a top flight NFL QB.
Weeden has shown more ability the McCoy ever did.
We will see if he progresses, or becomes another failed attempt.
^ Should be stickied on all QB threads and tattooed on repeat offenders.
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The youth movement continues...as the Browns likely have one of the youngest QBing teams in the NFL, in terms of NFL experience.
McCoy has not reached his full potential, while Wallace had.
Then there is the contract issue...end of story.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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But despite Toads assertion, nobody would be chanting for Seneca.
Fans did when McCoy was stinking up the joint, and they aren't likely to have changed their minds about that now...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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But despite Toads assertion, nobody would be chanting for Seneca.
Fans did when McCoy was stinking up the joint, and they aren't likely to have changed their minds about that now...
Cleveland fans will always chant for the back up regardless of who it is until the starting QB position is solidified. I wasn't much on McCoy after his performance, however, I was totally against picking up the 4th (some say 3rd) option at QB in the draft. That pick could have been used in a way to bring in 1st round talent in a position of need. I didn't like the pick because Weeden has Holmgren's fingers all over him.
I've kinda waited till all the preseason games were played to post my opinion of Weeden and I know a lot on here will disagree.
Is Weeden an upgrade? Sure. He has the physical gifts of throwing a long ball on target. But what didn't get upgraded is the OL and WRs Because of that (here's my prediction) we will be replacing Weeden and looking for another QB in the first round in 3 years. Weeden will only be as good as his team around him and unfortunately he doesn't have a good team around him. He will get hurt because he has zero mobility to avoid the rush. Here's where I'm going to get chastised: from what I've seen in the pressers and the preseason games, I see a slightly more accurate Derek Anderson. Both have the ability to throw a beautiful pass. Both have a quick release. They both react positively when making mistakes and can shrug them off. Both lack touch on the short pass. Neither possess any form of mobility to avoid the rush.
I'm reserving this call until towards the end of the season: Both need the perfect conditions to succeed and won't be able to win it on their own.
I know some on here are going to say I'm looney with the DA comparison. I understand that Weeden has better footwork and short yardage accuracy so I have hope that I'm wrong with the prediction of Weeden being gone in 3 years. If any on here remember, during the DA vs. Quinn debate's I strongly supported DA just because of his arm strength and deep threat. It's ironic that 4 years later and we have an almost mirrored situation with Weeden vs McCoy.
Bottom line: I don't think Weeden will succeed here because he doesn't have a good team around him. Lord, do I hope I'm wrong! Which is why I hoped to pass on a QB this year and go top tier next year. We are going to be bottom of the barrel no matter who plays behind center this year.
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I'm done responding to your new testament length posts that just keep repeating the same things over and over.
yebat' Putin
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I'm done responding to your new testament length posts that just keep repeating the same things over and over.
you read those?
Joe Thomas #73
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I'm done responding to your new testament length posts that just keep repeating the same things over and over.
Well since you kept changing your mind about what you do or don't expect it's probably for the best.....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Brandon Weeden named starting QB
Part 2
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