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I wanted to start this thread because I am blown away this year more than any other year at the magnitude of the divide between posters who think we are on the right track and those who do not. I see posts from waterdawg, Saintdawg, OverToad, and others that would lead you to believe that we couldn't compete with a college team much less the NFL.
Then there are others, myself included, who love the direction of the team and at a minimum believe that Heckert is doing a great job (jury still out on Shurmur).
I don't ever recall the board being so divided to such extremes at any other time.
From where I'm sitting, Heckert a) has a plan and a philosophy on how to build a team that he is sticking to and b) has a great pulse on the weaknesses of the team and sets out to address them. Can we say this about any other regime?
What more should we be asking of Heckert?
Water, Saint, Toad, others ... what would you have done differently?
What's the secret here? It seems we've tried everything over the years and nothing works and nothing makes the fan base happy. So what's the magic potion?
What is the secret to success?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Legend
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I have no idea at all what the secret of success is, except perhaps - "Don't play in Cleveland".
I see and agree with both sides, kinda.
I don't think we're very good, and I think that we'd have trouble beating some college teams for sure, but I also think that, in general, Heckert has us going in the right direction.
Conversely, we haven't see anything of this team, yet, this year.... the prologue isn't even written, much less the entire book. Similarly, I think the jury is still out on Heckert, too... while I like some of what he has done, I'm not completely enamoured with him, his work, or the work of Holmgren & Shurmur, either.
We're entering a year where the major players in the front office have been in place long enough that we should be seeing some payoff for the time, however, we are instead going into the season with literally half of our roster having one or fewer years of experience. Is that even more of a tear down, or is it now rebuilding? Toss a coin - you could call it either one. Every news outlet we get articles from seems to be bracing the public for a bad year - all that youth equals a bad record.... the expectations are already being set low. Again. It's being billed as a stepping stone to the future. Again. Just like every other year.
In short, we have absolutely nothing left except to hold onto faint hope that it *might* finally be changing for the better. However, there is precious little clear-cut evidence of that so our current status can be seen as both possible progress, or just more of the same crap we've been fed for 13 years.
To put that time frame into persepctive, by the way, a child goes from kindergarten to graduating high school in the same time frame.... and we're still trying to figure out what we're doing.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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It takes 3 things to build that high quality team.
1. Drafting talent. You can't win the derby riding a jackass.
2. Coaching. You have to have quality coaches that can teach scheme and technique at the pro level.
3. Direction. This is what we are going to do. We can change coaches, we can change players and that doesnt matter, this is what we are going to do. A true direction is what builds franchises.
Now I believe we have had terrific drafts and found some tremendous surprises from the undrafted pool. This is the most athletic roster we have put togther since the mid 80s and probably the most talented we have had top to bottom since that 94 team (I thought that team was just jacked with talent).
this is possibly the most experienced regime ever assembled. We have football guys at the top in Holmgren and Haskell. We have a young HC but he has 3 former head coaches beneath him and some of the elite positional coaches in the game today.
I also believe in the direction of this team. We have our schemes and philosophy. It is a long term philosophy and a true direction.
I am excited to see what these baby brownies can do on Sunday. I believe in what we are doing. Soon when we bring in a FA, it will be them needing to understand the Browns way instead of the Browns trying to adapt to each FA brought in.
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Legend
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I think to some extent both sides have valid points.
With 15 rookies on your roster, expecting a wonderful season is not even remotely realistic. To actually be competative on a week in and week out basis for at least the first half of this season would be no less than a miracle IMO
You like "the dirction the team is going"? In regards to us building through the draft, I like that too. But what other direction are you speaking of? Yes, we have built a foundation for a D in the first two drafts. Ward, Haden, Sheard, Taylor..............
But look back at those two drafts and tell me how many "studs" you see here. Drafting for the NFL is not an exact science. You will have hits and misses in all drafts.
What has people so excited is this last draft "on paper". Some aren't even excited about that. I really can't say I blame them too much. For you see, for so many years now, the draft has been our SB. It's the one thing we have to look forward to with excitement every year. It's why I think so many bank on far too much in terms of draft picks.
Yes, if Heckert batted perfectly I too would be overwhelmed. But nobody drafts perfectly. So who will be the hits and who will be the misses? After two seasons, what will remain of this draft class? Will Weeden end up being that franchise QB we've all been waiting for? Will gordon keep his nose clean and come back to form and be that stud WR we hope he'll be? Will Benjiman be that long threat with his speed that we all hope he will?
Some have this draft class already in the pro-bowl. Some have it failing miserably. Either could be right.
There are far too many questions left to be answerred to know exactly what we will and won't get out of this draft class heading into the future.
I'm on neither side of the fence. I see a lot of great poitential in this draft class. I've also witnessed a lot of great potential never quite pan out at the NFL level. You might say I'm cautiously optimistic. I'm always somewhat optimistic simply because I'm a Browns fan and always want my team to do well. I'm also cautious because I've witnessed far too many times the reality of how no draft class pans out to be 100% stars.
Usually reality lies somewhere in the middle.....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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there are many posters on here who have better thoughts and opinions than I on the matter, but I would like to add something to the discussion. I think a winning team starts with the quarterback. That's the #1 key to success in the NFL. Now I don't have any fancy stats or algorithms to back that up, just personal experience. look at this list: Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs Super Bowl 9. Terry Bradshaw (Franco Harris), 1 TD Super Bowl 10. Terry Bradshaw (Lynn Swann), 2 TDs Super Bowl 11. Ken Stabler (Fred Biletnikoff), 1 TD Super Bowl 12. Roger Staubach (Harvey Martin & Randy White), 0 TDs Super Bowl 13. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 4 TDs Super Bowl 14. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 15. Jim Plunkett (MVP), 3 TDs Super Bowl 16. Joe Montana (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 17. Joe Theismann (John Riggins), 2 TDs, Super Bowl 18. Jim Plunkett (Marcus Allen), 1 TD Super Bowl 19. Joe Montana (MVP), 3 TDs Super Bowl 20. Jim McMahon (Richard Dent), 0 TDs Super Bowl 21. Phil Simms (MVP), 3 TDs Super Bowl 22. Doug Williams (MVP), 4 TDs Super Bowl 23. Joe Montana (Jerry Rice), 2 TDs Super Bowl 24. Joe Montana (MVP), 5 TDs Super Bowl 25. Jeff Hostetler (Ottis Anderson), 1 TD Super Bowl 26. Mark Rypien (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP), 3TDs Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP), 1 TD linkThere are only two guys on that list that were AVERAGE - Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer. The difference with them was A) amazing defenses and B) efficient QBing. 2 out of 46 were Average, the rest are above average - elite. It all starts with the QB
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Quote:
I don't ever recall the board being so divided to such extremes at any other time.
You must not have been around during the Couch v Holcomb debates.  
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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I feel the need to come to the aid of " WaterDawg " .. I for one would not want to besmirch his FINE reputation as Football Guru  .. I am ecstatic about the season .. Reason #1 Lerner is gone and we just might be Acually winning some games and get competitive in the coming years ( I should live so long ) .. Can't help but wonder what might have been had Holmgren started form scratch ( remove Mc Genius & Company year one ( which he should have ) .. Can't help but wonder what Heckert 's drafts would look like if The Walrus hadn't intervened Think Mccoy & Weeden .. Can't help view Weeds the same way Toad see's him .. OL is still supper suspect and no/one knows hope our WR corp is going to play out ( have doubts ) We got nothing at DE ...The LB play will develop oh so slowly , but I think by the end of the season we will see some hope.. DB could be a fun position to watch this season also.. .. We are just now about to witness some speed and athletic ability on the field ( three years latter ) Wish we would have had 15 rookies on the roster three years ago ! .. Glad their here this year .. .. Haslam will move the franchise forward in leap's and bounds starting " Next Season " , and I'm truly excited about that .. .. I expect a very rough ride this season ( again ) with a glimmer of hope going into the next regime ! .. Not all negative
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Legend
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Are we on the right track..... Hell yes Can we beat all college teams.... Hell yes Do we need the players drafted this year to pan out... HELL YES Do we need another good draft next year... HELL YES Will we need a season or two for all the young guys to gain experience... HELL YES Will we win 6, 7 or 8 games this year... HELL NO It's going to take another year or two before we can get excited about having a winning season, but the future does look bright
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
There are only two guys on that list that were AVERAGE - Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer. The difference with them was A) amazing defenses and B) efficient QBing.
2 out of 46 were Average, the rest are above average - elite.
It all starts with the QB
I agree with what you say. But I would say 3 out of the 46 because Big Ben was terrible in his first Superbowl. I believe he has one the worst QB rating in as Super Bowl victory, but they had A) Amazing Defense and B) an Amazing one two combo in the backfield.
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Quote:
link
There are only two guys on that list that were AVERAGE - Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer. The difference with them was A) amazing defenses and B) efficient QBing.
2 out of 46 were Average, the rest are above average - elite.
It all starts with the QB
I'm not going to discount the need for a quality QB, but I do have to ask this - how many of those QB's were considered "elite" before their Super Bowl wins, and how many got pushed into that "elite" class simply because of their team's Super Bowl wins?
If not for the Steelers winning four SB's, would you still call Terry Bradshaw "elite"? I don't think I would. Heck, I have trouble calling him that WITH those wins.
Hostetler, Rypien, McMahon, Plunkett.... Eli??
Just looking at it from the other side of the coin.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
there are many posters on here who have better thoughts and opinions than I on the matter, but I would like to add something to the discussion.
I think a winning team starts with the quarterback. That's the #1 key to success in the NFL.
Now I don't have any fancy stats or algorithms to back that up, just personal experience.
look at this list:
Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD
Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD
Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 9. Terry Bradshaw (Franco Harris), 1 TD
Super Bowl 10. Terry Bradshaw (Lynn Swann), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 11. Ken Stabler (Fred Biletnikoff), 1 TD
Super Bowl 12. Roger Staubach (Harvey Martin & Randy White), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 13. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 14. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 15. Jim Plunkett (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 16. Joe Montana (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 17. Joe Theismann (John Riggins), 2 TDs,
SÎper Bowl 18. Jim Plunkett (Marcus Allen), 1 TD
Super Bowl 19. Joe Montana (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 20. Jim McMahon (Richard Dent), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 21. Phil Simms (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 22. Doug Williams (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 23. Joe Montana (Jerry Rice), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 24. Joe Montana (MVP), 5 TDs
Super Bowl 25. Jeff Hostetler (Ottis Anderson), 1 TD
Super Bowl 26. Mark Rypien (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs
Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs
Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD
Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD
Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD
Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP), 1 TD
link
There are only two guys on that list that were AVERAGE - Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer. The difference with them was A) amazing defenses and B) efficient QBing.
2 out of 46 were Average, the rest are above average - elite.
It all starts with the QB
I don't disagree that it all starts with the QB, but on that list there are more than 2 that were just average. All 3 Washington QBs for instance (Rypien, D.Williams, Theismann). Also, Plunkett, McMahon, Hostetler (though Simms was QB until the late run when he was hurt) were decidedly average for their careers.
#gmstrong
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We have built through the draft, we have built through free agency. We have had young players, we have had old players. We have used the 4-3 defense, we have used the 3-4 defense. We have had plenty of different offenses.
The thing we haven't had is continuity. I think teams can succeed on a season-to-season basis without continuity, but they can't succeed long term.
And it's not even a secret, look at the most successful teams over the past decade; Colts, Patriots, Giants, Steelers, Ravens, Eagles. They all keep the same guys in place.
(And now that we have a pretty good young talent base and a guy who seems to be good at picking players there are rumors of another blow up. Awesome. Maybe when can have some continuity with the next regime.)
Last edited by cfrs15; 09/04/12 03:38 PM.
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Legend
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don't forget about the Giants...
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Legend
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I have no clue what you are talking about... 
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Quote:
Quote:
link
There are only two guys on that list that were AVERAGE - Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer. The difference with them was A) amazing defenses and B) efficient QBing.
2 out of 46 were Average, the rest are above average - elite.
It all starts with the QB
I'm not going to discount the need for a quality QB, but I do have to ask this - how many of those QB's were considered "elite" before their Super Bowl wins, and how many got pushed into that "elite" class simply because of their team's Super Bowl wins?
If not for the Steelers winning four SB's, would you still call Terry Bradshaw "elite"? I don't think I would. Heck, I have trouble calling him that WITH those wins.
Hostetler, Rypien, McMahon, Plunkett.... Eli??
Just looking at it from the other side of the coin.
i was saying they are above average to elite. thats what the - symbol meant.
above average QB play is 1 of the secrets 
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didn't even notice the mention of "above average - ".
I still don't think any of the QB's I listed, sans Eli, fall into that category without adding those titles to their credentials.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
It takes 3 things to build that high quality team.
1. Drafting talent. You can't win the derby riding a jackass.
2. Coaching. You have to have quality coaches that can teach scheme and technique at the pro level.
3. Direction. This is what we are going to do. We can change coaches, we can change players and that doesnt matter, this is what we are going to do. A true direction is what builds franchises.
I believe you are right about that. Not every draftee will be a homerun but I like how we are building.
I am skeptical of Shurmur. If he's the real deal we will see that this year.
I think direction is relative to how you build a team and the circumstances you are in. We need talent at all levels and slowly we are adding that talent building through the draft.
I maintain that this year is a bridge to next to year. How well Shurmur handles his job, if Haslam blows the thing up are areas that I am most concerned over. Heck it matters not if the guy writing the checks decides to do it his way.
Barring a blow up, we will know by years end if the secret to success is being followed in Cleveland.
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Legend
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What's the secret to success?
Bring back Butch Davis. Get a logo. Wear orange jerseys.
Get tougher better players on defense.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Legend
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I wish this was your hall-of-famer post.
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 I have no criticisms of this regime so far. Mistakes are to be expected. You will find them with any top team today (look at the patriots drafting). We will see how Shurmur pans out and how some of the draft picks pan out. All in all I cant imagine who we would hire to replace this bunch. They seem far more knowledgeable, coordinated, and experienced than anyone who has come before.
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Quote:
What is the secret to success?
Winning.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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2nd String
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I agree 100%. Continuity is the key. I like Heckert and Holmgren. I'm not sold on Shurmur. I like the direction we are going. With such a young team we will have growing pains but I am ok with that. We weren't going to be competitive this season with a few more vets anyways.
If Haslam does decide to blow up the regime I am willing to trust he has good guys to replace them with. I am personally hoping he keeps Holmgren and Heckert. I hope Shurmur gets the axe and we are able to get a legit coach who has been successful as a HC in the NFL before(like Andy Reid)
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Success comes from the Ownership down to the players...And once they can put success in place...then success will be a part of this organization...there is nothing a bunch of posters can say on a message board that will affect the success of a team.. There will always be separation..Because there will always be different views from fellow posters...Success or not...I take every post ..whether I agree or not..as an opinion...nothing more nothing less... The common factor is we all want a winning team...and until the Organization accomplishes that...Nothing we say will change that... It is enjoyable and at times not so much...to be a part of this message board.. to voice my thoughts on what I see and feel... on how this team is playing on a Sunday afternoon... JMO
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I mentioned this in my other thread, Success trickles down from the top. We have not had success in the Lerner era at all. Only once has there been exposure to the playoffs.
The Lerner family has been our biggest liability. They have no clue. I'm more optimistic now that Haslam is buying in. The Walrus needs to go, he has underperformed to such a degree as to put him in Matt Millen territory.
I agree with continuity making an organization function well. But picking the wrong executives to run that organization and then retaining them for the sake of "continuity" is a boneheaded mistake.
As it stands, we have what I would say is a team built thru the draft to much higher degree that I'm comfortable with. We need more veteran leadership and good vets at that. Lets say we are at a 90% draft and 10% FA vets.. I'd be much happier with a 80 / 20 or even a 70 / 30 ratio. I feel that 90% is a mistake.
Coaching. I do not see anyone on this board begging to have Shurm's love child. In fact most if not all posters on here are at the very least "not sold" on him. Personally I think he's in over his head at the Pop Warner level. WTF was the Walrus thinking? IMO.. no one else wanted the job and he was all that was left. Just boneheaded.
Talent. There are few teams that have less talent than we do. We play in a tough division. That is NOT a recipe for success. At best, we split with pitt (they have injury issues but still more talent) we lose both to the balt defense alone. And believe it or not, they are quietly building a very competent team in cincy, in fact if things bounce right for them, I could see cincy taking the AFC North.
Linebackers.. umm.. we have linebackers? pfft.
Have people looked at the depth chart?
WR.. MoMass is the lead of the 2's? Greg Little is a 1? Josh is a 2? OMG.. just shoot me.
Do you guys know that if Mack goes down with a knee or something, that John Greco is the center? Gawd.. he couldn't make the Rams starting lineup.
JoeT's backup is Cousins?? Ackkk...
Can anyone name me the backups for Pinky and Lauvao?
Our depth blows. Thats on Heckert and the Walrus.
So.. we have a boatload of rooks, little talent, no depth, subpar coaching, tough schedule, tough division and somehow I'm negative?
Back laters, I gotta go to my son's soccer game.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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Boiled down version.
1. You have to have a top 12 QB for your team to have a legitimate chance to win the SuperBowl. It's just the way it is in this era.
2. You have to build from the lines out. If you can win the LOS with just your 5 OL or just your front 4 DL, then you win the game more times than not.
3. Continuity. Players aren't usually super bright. If you have players thinking while playing it slows them down. Put in a proven system with proven coaches who have had success in that system...and let it play out.
4. The draft is where you replenish talent. The best drafting teams are the ones that are consistently in the playoffs. Punch your ticket to the playoffs and history has shown that even 6 seeds have a real good shot at winning it all.
5. Leadership. It starts with the owner and flows down through management, coaches and players.
Where are we in all this.....we're getting close.
1. I think we may have hit on the QB. I've liked how the ball comes out of his hand. He's got a chance to be really good if he's afforded excellent protection.
2. We're above average here talent wise on both sides of the line. I'd like to see a better RDE and a better LG for sure. I'd like to see a dominant RDE. Gotta get that guy to really make this DL hum.
3. As long as Shurmur pulls his head out of his playcalling behind I really like the staff we've put together. I like the WCO conceptually and I like the 4-3 that we play. Let's keep it for a while...a long while.
4. Better than average but some big swings and misses too. No need to dissect this here. But we're catching up with teams from a talent perspective no doubt in my mind.
5. Let's see how Haslem serves as the owner. I have to believe this will be a huge upgrade and I hope it permeates the team in a very positive way.
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Ask often and don't be afraid to be slapped.....that's my theory.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I know Lerner has had his struggles and there's plenty reason to diss him, but I think a Matt Millen comparisome is a bit extreme, no?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Quote:
I know Lerner has had his struggles and there's plenty reason to diss him, but I think a Matt Millen comparisome is a bit extreme, no?
That wasn't the comparison. Mike Holmgren was. Please review my statement
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The Walrus needs to go, he has underperformed to such a degree as to put him in Matt Millen territory.
I fail to see the successes on his watch. Perhaps someone can enumerate them for me?
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Practice Squad
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What is the secret to success?
That is a VERY easy questions to answer.
The answer is an elite quarterback.
Don't believe me? Ask fans of...Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Big Ben, Drew Brees, etc...Ask them what was going on in their franchise and how it was going until they got their guy. . .
There's lots of little things that we can rack our brains on, and different formulas we can surmise that will help the Browns be successful... but until we hit on that guy that can be an elite QB...We are going to continue to go through this exercise of hiring / firing GM's, Coaches, etc...It's what we've experienced since 1999 because the Browns are yet to have even a SOLID QB let alone a good QB...
Best of luck to ya' Weeden... 
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Quote:
Quote:
I know Lerner has had his struggles and there's plenty reason to diss him, but I think a Matt Millen comparisome is a bit extreme, no?
That wasn't the comparison. Mike Holmgren was. Please review my statement
Quote:
The Walrus needs to go, he has underperformed to such a degree as to put him in Matt Millen territory.
I fail to see the successes on his watch. Perhaps someone can enumerate them for me?
It was a typo on my part, but I gather you were able to pick it up from the second part of your response to my post, but took the chance to get a shot in. That's fair.
It's arguable to say Heckert was a good hire and he has brought in good draft picks. On the other hand, we have not drafted 4 WRs with our first pick in the last 5 years, nor have we finished 0-16. Millen was considered to be The "cockroach" of the NFL for how he survived. I wouldn't go so far yet to lump Holmgren in that category.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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To be fair to you.. I do see your point. I don't think Heckert has done as badly as Millen did. Some time ago (11-15-2011) there was a story I read on Bleacher Report about Holmgren's grades as Browns Prez. The article basically said there had been 5 critical decisions that MH was involved with:
1. The Mangini decision (F grade and I agreed)
2. Hiring Tom Heckert ( B+ at the time and I would currently grade a low B high C)
3. Handpicked Colt McCoy ( Grade incomplete and at times I agree and others I grade a C)
4. Holmgren and Heckert are committed to developing the team without signing free agents. (Grade F and I disagree.. I think the grade is actually too harsh.. I grade that a D)
5. Holmgren selected Pat Shurmur as head coach and approved his not naming an offensive coordinator. (Grade D and I couldn't agree more)
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Quote:
Quote:
I know Lerner has had his struggles and there's plenty reason to diss him, but I think a Matt Millen comparisome is a bit extreme, no?
That wasn't the comparison. Mike Holmgren was. Please review my statement
Quote:
The Walrus needs to go, he has underperformed to such a degree as to put him in Matt Millen territory.
I fail to see the successes on his watch. Perhaps someone can enumerate them for me?
Matt Millen was a tremedous failure. Holmgren hasn't been in Cleveland long enough to become a failure.
Millen drafted a wide receiver in three straight drafts (Carlos Rogers, Roy Williams, and Mike Williams). None of those players are currently on NFL teams. Holmgren has hit on both of the 1st rounders he has had while in Cleveland (Haden, Taylor).
Millen drafted a QB third overall (Joey Harrington, he was horrible) who failed. Holmgren is going to be tied to what Weeden does, good or bad.
Millen was 31-81 over seven years. So far Holmgren has gone 9-23, equally horrible.
Millen ran the show and didn't have any help. Holmgren has hired quality people, it seems, to run the team.
Millen didn't have a plan. It seems like Holmgren might have a plan.
If Holmgren continues at his current pace, obviously he would be a colossal failure like Millen. But he likely won't be around long enough to be that bad.
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Doug Williams & Mark Rypien?  Those Redskin wins were a team effort.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
Doug Williams & Mark Rypien?
Those Redskin wins were a team effort.
They were also a different era, before the rules were changed to overwhelmingly favor the passing game.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Point being, I don't consider either one of them great or elite QB's. That was the claim made in regards to SB winning QB's and it went all the way back to Bart Starr. I don't have a problem saying this is a little different era. But when did this era start? Right after Dilfer got a ring?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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It started, IIRC, right around 2002 or 2003 when the passing rules changed, and pass interference became a "breathe on" offense.
It used to be that a well rounded team was more important than a great QB. A team could win with a great defense and great running game. Now it really takes a great QB to win a championship.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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So that would mean you consider Big Ben a "great QB"? I'd consider him a good QB, but not a great one. In super Bowl XL they won 21-10. Sounds more like the D won that one. In Super Bowl XLII the Giants beat one of those "great QB's" 17-14. Somehow it seems that you don't have to score 30 points to win. But a great defense can go a long way. Just sayin'... 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I remember when Joe Haden was going through his first training camp and someone asked him about the game being so much faster at this level and he literally laughed in their face. There was no comparing SEC speed to Cleveland Browns speed. The Browns had no speed.
I doubt we had 4 guys, on that final year Mangini team, that could run a sub 4.5 in the 40 and Heckert drafted 3 of them. I really dont think a lot of people understand just how vastly different the personnel types were from then to now.
We are actually starting to look like a real NFL team, with NFL size and NFL speed.
Adding Brad Childress was huge. Shurmur didn't get the OC he wanted in year one, so he waited for his guy to become available, instead of adding a Mo Carthon.
I think we are light years ahead of where we were when Holmgren took over. It may not translate into more wins this year as we are so young but I think it is going to be a fun team to watch even with the boneheaded mistakes that we should all expect from such a young group.
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that sounds great except that Childress was available last offseason
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Quote:
that sounds great except that Childress was available last offseason
And Shurmur is still calling the plays. Just saying.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What's the Secret to Success?
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