|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,433
Hall of Famer
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,433 |
So much for the ever optimistic president of The Cleveland Browns... Quote:
BEREA: Whenever a situation appeared dire, Browns president Mike Holmgren has been the one person in the organization who could cheer everyone up with his positive spin.
That’s why Holmgren’s lukewarm answer Monday to a question on whether the Browns are poised to make a big jump from last year’s 4-12 record seemed so alarming.
Not only did he not put a smiley face on the season that starts Sunday at home against the Philadelphia Eagles, but he also said some of the same things that many national analysts have pointed out as they predict doom for the Browns in 2012.
“I hope so,” Holmgren said of the big jump. “You know what? Any time we actually talk about the numbers and the wins and losses, I get a little squirrelly, and I don’t mean to backtrack or anything like that. It’s just our schedule. I think we’re playing the NFC East. Our division’s tough. We play a pretty good schedule. But having said that, I think we’re gonna be a better football team this year.”
That could be true, and the improved Browns still might not win more games. Their schedule is rated as the league’s third-toughest, their 2011 opponents winning .527 percent, highest among non-playoff teams. They face a who’s who of the NFL’s best quarterbacks (Tom Brady excluded). Even games that might look winnable – like at Indianapolis on Oct. 21 or at home against Washington on Dec. 16 – bring big-name rookies like the Colts’ Andrew Luck and the Redskins’ Robert Griffin III.
Tempering Holmgren’s enthusiasm could be the fact that his days in Berea are likely numbered. He probably expects to be let go after owner Randy Lerner’s sale of the team to Jimmy Haslam III is voted on at the league’s fall meeting in mid-October, although Holmgren didn’t let on about that Monday.
Or he could be worried about the staggering run of bad luck that has struck the Browns since early March, when the league announced its investigation into the New Orleans Saints’ bounty program. Browns linebacker Scott Fujita was implicated and is currently banned from the building due to a three-game league suspension.
Since then, the hits have just kept on coming.
Defensive tackle Phil Taylor tore a pectoral lifting weights on May 10 and underwent surgery. He will miss at least the first six games.
Weak-side linebacker Chris Gocong suffered a torn Achilles in practice on Aug. 4 and was lost for the season.
On Family Night on Aug. 8, news broke that cornerback Joe Haden had tested positive for a banned substance, reportedly Adderall, and could be suspended by the league for four games.
Running back Trent Richardson, the third overall pick, underwent the second arthroscopic surgery on his left knee in six months on Aug. 9.
On Aug. 24, the offensive line was manhandled by the Eagles, who were without 2011 sack leader Jason Babin. Babin is back and will line up against Browns rookie right tackle Mitchell Schwartz.
Rookie quarterback Brandon Weeden has shown a penchant for fumbling.
On Sunday, the Browns could be without four projected defensive starters – Taylor, Fujita, Haden and Gocong.
As of Monday, the Browns’ 53-man roster included 15 rookies. Shockingly, neither General Manager Tom Heckert nor Holmgren were aware of that fact.
“I saw that,” Holmgren said. “I wasn’t keeping track of that and then I saw it and – I don’t want to say it startled me – but it’s a pretty young group.”
A total of 27 players have less than two years of NFL experience.
If he talks to the team, Holmgren said he would say: “‘Everyone knows you’re young and you can make excuses like that forever and ever. But the simple fact is no one will care.’ I know they are smart and they care and what we lack in experience my hope is we’ll make up for in enthusiasm and intelligence and skill.
“I’ve said it before, [we’re] building the foundation so the team can be good for a long time. We are just in that beginning stage now.”
It sounded as if he had just hit rewind on the five-year plan.
The fact that two of the top men shaping the final roster learned a key statistic about it from the media can’t set well with Haslam, who seems like the detail-oriented type.
Presumably some organizations would discuss such numbers in making final cuts, or even earlier, and perhaps add some veteran free agents for balance.
Perhaps Holmgren realizes that teams ready to make the kind of leap the Browns seek usually do it with third-, fourth- and fifth-year players. That’s the heart of a roster, a nugget drummed into the minds of Browns beat writers long ago by former coach Bill Belichick.
In his preamble, Holmgren also said he hasn’t been reading transcripts of coach Pat Shurmur’s and Heckert’s press conferences, warning those in attendance in case he said something that contradicted them.
“I know I probably should, but I don’t,” Holmgren said of keeping up with what his top lieutenants are saying in public.
Those who expected to leave Berea on Monday pepped up by Holmgren instead found him subdued. His transcript admission made him seem somewhat detached. Even with an uncertain future, Holmgren remains Lerner’s assigned overseer until the ownership changeover, expected to be on top of everything.
The injuries and issues the Browns face do seem daunting. But Holmgren is “squirrelly,” and that’s not a good sign.
Link
I'm more alarmed about the comment about the foundation being built. What happened to the foundation that was one of the toughest teams to beat before Mangini left town? I thought Pat was using that foundation to build a successful team.
Last edited by RocketOptimist; 09/06/12 05:32 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563 |
So 6-10 is good enough now?
What a shock, the guy is back tracking now that he may actually be accountable for his actions with an Owner around. It's clear he was trying to sell tickets when he said that 6-10 wasn't good enough before.
Oh well, I'm glad it's at least making people fearful of their jobs. Then you see how good people really are when they are under immense pressure.
you had a good run Hank.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
Quote:
The fact that two of the top men shaping the final roster learned a key statistic about it from the media can’t set well with Haslam, who seems like the detail-oriented type.
Presumably some organizations would discuss such numbers in making final cuts, or even earlier, and perhaps add some veteran free agents for balance.
I don't really buy into this.
I mean, I can see where one *might* concern themselves with it, but I think that it could just as easily be argued that it would be worrying for the sake of worrying because in the end, the players that win jobs stick, regardless of age. So, if you roster has 15 rookies that earned those jobs, then that's just a statistic. If you're worried about keeping lesser players around because they have more experience, then you have to accept that you are choosing to be less talented.
Experience is that thing you get right after you needed it. 
All of our rookies will have experience next week, and next year.
I am disconcerted that Holmgren seems so detached now.... perhaps he's already been informed by Haslam of his intentions, and thus maybe he now has Short-Timer's disease?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Even if Haslam hasn't told him directly that he will be fired, he's gotta see the writing on the wall, right? Everyone is saying that Joe Banner is coming along with Haslam and Banner does Mike Holmgren's job.
At the very least Holmgren will be stripped of his ability to be the final decision maker as soon as the sale goes through.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
Yup.
A man without an identity and being stripped of his chance of a lasting legacy.
I'd stop paying attention, too. At least when you're a lame-duck coach, you still have games to prepare for. In his position, there isn't much at all to do now.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
I'm not the least bit concerned that he didn't know the exact number of rookies... I'm sure he knows this team is painfully inexperienced... and his job may be in their hands. I'm also not surprised that he gets squirrely when he thinks about wins and losses before the season starts... I bet most FO people do around the league.... those with inexperienced coaches, 15 rookies (26 rookies and 1 year guys combined), key players suspended or hurt, a new owner and the 3rd hardest schedule in football probably more so. 
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Quote:
I'm more alarmed about the comment about the foundation being built. What happened to the foundation that was one of the toughest teams to beat before Mangini left town? I thought Pat was using that foundation to build a successful team.
What foundation do your refer to?
Do you mean our 34 defense? Because we disassembled that mess, minus a few key positions.
Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, Ahtyba Rubin, Joshua Cribbs, D'Qwell Jackson, Reggie Hodges and Phil Dawson all survived the purge, because they where good enough, but really they where all we had and only represent some good strong corner stones. However the rest of the foundation could not be built in a single years time.
We have never reached that milestone. I don't know what foundation [Pat] has been given to build from. (?)
Ultimately you would like to have a good, young, talented and experienced team overall.
If you have that already built then you are to the point where you can more easily manage your roster.
I think that we have some good young talent that simply lacks experience.
The two most obvious on offense are with QB Brandon Weeden and RT Mitchell Schwartz. I think that Trent Richardson might take some time to get up to speed and as long as he can execute his protections I don't really see any problem with him as a rookie.
One Defense I think that the combination of our rookie DT's can in combination help us weather the storm of losing Phil Taylor for a good portion of this season and even help us get Rubin some rest.
On the other hand we will have some youngsters at LBer who will have plenty on their plates, even still I can see more speed out there.
How do you build a foundation?
You start with good corner stones and lay in the walls one stone at a time and hopefully you find that right 'key stone' (QB) that can lock that foundation together
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,448
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,448 |
There all toast at the end of the year !
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 88
Rookie
|
|
Rookie
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 88 |
Quote:
There all toast at the end of the year !
Agreed! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,513
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,513 |
Quote:
Presumably some organizations would discuss such numbers in making final cuts, or even earlier, and perhaps add some veteran free agents for balance.
I want the best 53.... if they are rookies so be it... if they are vets so be it... I think if you have good coaches and a few good leaders then it doesn't matter that much if we have 15 rookies... gonna be a tough year this year, but think it'll help out in the long run.
<><
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,523
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,523 |
Dear Big Mike,
Allow me to share with you something I have learned,the hard way of coarse;
everyone says they want honesty,but when you begin speaking the hardcore language of the truth,people get,well,squirrelly.
Before someone on this board has a coronary,please refrain from speaking the truth and do as all good politicians do,BS.And never,ever tell the press exactly what you are thinking,because,making mountains out of molehills are what they are trained to do.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
I don't appreciate the doom and gloom spin of this article.
15 rookies on a roster is fairly irrelevant when you consider most of them are backups, starting in place of injured players, or replacing terrible veterans.
I don't think anyone was planning on using the oldest slowest team in the NFL as a foundation to build a winning team in the NFL.
This article is an attempt to make the FO appear incompetent when there simply aren't many legitimate mistakes to point to.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556 |
They twisted and manipulated what was said to get a doom and gloom shock value article. OO the Team president has already packed his bags and given up hope for this team. It is cheap journalism at best.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,433
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,433 |
Quote:
This article is an attempt to make the FO appear incompetent when there simply aren't many legitimate mistakes to point to.
As opposed to the Browns PR department at The Cleveland Plain Dealer? We need honesty, hope, and brutal honesty in journalism. Only Pluto seems to have that in this town. Mary Kay might as well become the official unofficial cheerleader of the team.
One can say that hiring guys all from the same agent, I don't care if they are like minded or not, could be a legitimate mistake. So could having your Owner use the bully pulpit to reach on a backup QB in the third round. Hindsight is 20/20, yes. But that doesn't mean Holmgren hasn't made a plethora of mistakes since being here.
Why is Gil Haskell still always on the sidelines, too?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,961
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,961 |
the title of the thread makes it sound like Holmgren is squirrelly But really, when I read the following statement, I get what he's say ing Quote:
“I hope so,” Holmgren said of the big jump. “You know what? Any time we actually talk about the numbers and the wins and losses, I get a little squirrelly, and I don’t mean to backtrack or anything like that. It’s just our schedule. I think we’re playing the NFC East. Our division’s tough. We play a pretty good schedule. But having said that, I think we’re gonna be a better football team this year.”
Now as most of you know, I'm not a big believer in worrying about SOS (strength of schedule) , I firmly believe it doesn't mean nearly as much as some think because sometimes, the Superbowl winner from the previous year is a dud the next season. Not that it's a for sure thing, but from what I read, the giants didn't exactly run roughshod over the Boys last night (micro example so don't get excited)
Point is, the team we were last year doesn't exist anymore. I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but we'll begin to find out sunday.
what happens if Weeden, Little, Richardson and Gordon catch fire? I mean seriously, if our D can be decent, we could roll over some teams that were winners last year,.
I think what Holmgren is doing is talking reality (some would say, lowering expectations)
The Pressure of the schudule, the newness of the system, the youth of the players.. man, we are looking like we are in for a rough year no matter how we slice the pie.
And here's the thing, that may not even be remotely bad.
If you see pieces of the team come together.. if you see we can score, but lack a little talent on D (we do have some issue there still), you can overlook a loss based on inexperience and I don't think it's at all unfair to do so. and I don't believe it's an excuse. I believe it's reality.
There are people on this board that think Weeden was a mistake. if we struggle, they will attack him worse than Ytown attacked McCoy.. it wasn't fair then, it won't be fair now. but it will happen.
Personnaly, Weeden hasn't impressd me in Preseason. But maybe that's just because it's preseason so I'll reserve judgement,. I'll give the kid a chance to win me over,.'
He's got tools.. he's got a receiver or two that can make a difference, he's got a running back that if he lives up to his billing, will make a huge difference. he's got a young Oline, but two of the younger guys have a year or so of experience that they didn't have last year and we have a complete Rook at RT.. expect mistakes over there. expect them, but don't get overly crazy when they happen.
I guess what I'm saying is I like what Holmgren is saying, I like and appriciate the honest outlook.
I do think it's gonna be tough at first, I do believe we're gonna feel the jitters and pains of a young team trying to find an idenity.
All I'm saying is don't over react if things go south at first. if at the end of the year, we still suck,, that's a problem ,, but if improvement is demonstrated, look at it as the young guys have servered an apprenticeship and will improve with time and experience.
I, for one, and looking forward to seeing the growth of this team.
But in all reality, I expect them to come out of the gate like a dog...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,202
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,202 |
Quote:
But in all reality, I expect them to come out of the gate like a dog...
Dogs come out of the gate pretty dang fast...That would be a good thing... 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 73,448
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 73,448 |
I'll comment on your statement about people jumping on Weeden, which is no doubt true. Count me in the group of people who has been outwardly against (since April) our drafting of Weeden.
However, I do understand that it is not his fault that this fan base is so starved for a competent QB. In all reality, he's going to struggle .. fans will be up in arms .. and it could "ruin" his future.
Like you, I am going to reserve full judgment until we are a few weeks into the season. However, we must all understand this as well .. he SHOULD be held to a higher standard than Colt. He was drafted higher, has been praised much more by coaches and Holmgren, AND has better weapons around him. IMO, it's a recipe for disaster based on what I assume he will look like.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,961
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,961 |
Quote:
Quote:
But in all reality, I expect them to come out of the gate like a dog...
Dogs come out of the gate pretty dang fast...That would be a good thing...
You are talking Greyhounds,, I'm talking miniture poodles... big difference 
Last edited by Damanshot; 09/06/12 09:32 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But in all reality, I expect them to come out of the gate like a dog...
Dogs come out of the gate pretty dang fast...That would be a good thing...
You are talking Greyhounds,, I'm talking miniture poodles... big difference
Eh, even Lab's can come out of the gate fast enough to scare the owner. My lab, mo, did. Sidewalk on the side of the house, huge backyard, evergreens lining the sidewalk. Came home one night - walking on the sidewalk...Luckily, she gave a growl as she flew threw the air. I said "mo - it's me"....as she hit me in the gut. She felt bad, but doggoneit, she did her job.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,961
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,961 |
Quote:
I'll comment on your statement about people jumping on Weeden, which is no doubt true. Count me in the group of people who has been outwardly against (since April) our drafting of Weeden.
However, I do understand that it is not his fault that this fan base is so starved for a competent QB. In all reality, he's going to struggle .. fans will be up in arms .. and it could "ruin" his future.
Like you, I am going to reserve full judgment until we are a few weeks into the season. However, we must all understand this as well .. he SHOULD be held to a higher standard than Colt. He was drafted higher, has been praised much more by coaches and Holmgren, AND has better weapons around him. IMO, it's a recipe for disaster based on what I assume he will look like.
like the pick or not, we really need to give the kid a reasonable chance to show us his stuff. He's going to struggle I think. It's hard to imagine a scenario where he wouldn't.
The thing is, give it time, look at his Growth in the role. if he's improving,, slowly or quickly, but improving, you gotta sit back and just let it happen.
Like I said, I wasn't in favor of the weeden pick, but he's here now.. not a damn thing I can do about it, so being a Browns fan, I hope he succeeds.
I'm pulling for him to do just that. but I know it's not going to be a cake walk. That boy has some seroius work to do.,
And to be successful, Just like McCoy he's gonna need the help of the players that surround him.
What I don't want to hear at the end of the year is, he put the ball in thier hands and they dropped it. If I hear that from those that beat the hell out of McCoy and use it as an excuse for Weeden, I might just lose it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,202
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,202 |
Quote:
AND has better weapons around him.
I see that posted a lot...As I look at your sig...he will have 3 of the better weapons the same as Colt... Little .. Momass... Hardesty...Then I see 2 unproven rookies..which every one hopes pans out...In TR and Gordon...
Also he has a rookie in Schwartz and Benjamin....I don't buy into the better weapons theory yet....Young unproven guys..that I hope turn into very good players.until then...I cannot say he has better weapons around him...jmo..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,202
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,202 |
Quote:
I'm talking miniture poodles.
you calling TR a miniature poodle ?... you better go hide Daman
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 73,448
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 73,448 |
While I agree they are unproven, I must assume that TRich will be a better back than anyone we saw last season (and if he isn't, well then we have an even bigger problem than we originally thought).
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,202
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,202 |
That's a problem I hope doesn't occur ... If TR can do for Weeden ( and better of ) what Hillis did for Colt ( before headcase syndrome ) Weeden may do okay.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,530
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,530 |
So Mike,
What would you say.....you do here!?!?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
I am disconcerted that Holmgren seems so detached now.... perhaps he's already been informed by Haslam of his intentions, and thus maybe he now has Short-Timer's disease?
Let me see...If I'm Mike Holmgren...
The Browns are now in the 3rd year under my reign.
I've not done as well as I've promised I'd do.
I'm doing in the 3rd year what I should have done in the 1st year.
I've had to do a serious about-face with my strategy because the guy that hired me has sold the company over to a new guy.
And now, with 15 rookies on the roster and another dozen or so in their second year, the promises I'd made in order to put butts in seats look more like lies.
So what would I do if I were Mike Holmgren?
I'd back-pedal away from those optimistic promises and try to temper them with some reality to cushion the blow of what's about to happen to my team.
There was never any real promise of this team doing seriously improved things this year. There was just pre-season hype and a so-far failed team President selling the fanbase exactly what they wanted to hear.
It's as predictable as the sunrise and the sunset, that more fans than not will be suckered into false optimism. When the fans buy that bill of goods, they shouldn't be upset at the seller for doing his job. They should be upset at themselves for falling for it.
Holmgren told people that losing wasn't acceptable when it was time to do that, and now that it's time to move away from optimism towards realism he's doing that. People loved him for being the optimist and telling them what they wanted to hear, and now people are going to fear what he represents because that optimism has waned.
Realism is the only real truth. If one can see reality for what it is outside of the spin, showmanship, and sales-pitches, they'll never be disappointed due to false expectations. I'm not disappointed by Holmgren's comments. I'm disappointed that people would allow themselves to be manipulated into being disappointed by his comments.
Mike Holmgren...the proverbial dead-man walking...and it's showing. I just hope Haslam doesn't buy into the hype the way both Al and Randy were suckered into doing. Holmgren knows he won't, and that has him scared in a way he hasn't been scared around here before.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 |
You know what?
I think you're right.
I think Holmgren looked at Lerner and said this is a guy I can take advantage of. This is a guy I can get $5m/year from and not really have to produce. This is a job I can just milk for millions before I retire.
I'm with you now. You have convinced me.
IMO, he is the most disingenuous guy we've hired ... maybe ever. He never had any intentions at turning this thing around ever. Delhomme? Pfft ... there were plenty of guys we could have had instead, and he just didn't make it happen. McCoy? Pfft ... again, we all knew he sucked ... there were plenty of guys we could have had instead ... and Mikey boy didn't get the job done. Weeden? Pfft ... another bust waiting to happen. And Mikey H. should have known he needed one more pick for RG3 but he was too stubborn to give it up.
This guy is flat out the worst thing to ever happen to the Browns. No plan, no integrity, terrible hires, terrible drafts, pulling rank ...
How dare he not get this thing turned around year 1.
You were duped Randy. You were duped.
Hopefully Haslam isn't anything like Randy ... or Mikey H.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
Put down the bong. Seriously.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Quote:
Put down the bong. Seriously.
Yeah or stop Bogarting that thing and pass it on dude. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Hehehe...
Is what I've said so hard to believe? Can anyone say with a straight face that in the 3rd year of an NFL President's reign it's acceptable to have the youngest team in the league and be the odds-on favorite to lose the most games?
There are no measures by NFL standards which we can apply to our situation and say we're right on track. To point that fact out is certainly more credible than postulating that Holmgren sees the writing on the wall and has already checked out. Hell, all I'm implying is that Holmgren has been doing his job as a salesman and as a talking-head for the organization, and that he's now covering his ass by tempering undeserved optimism with realism, even if he's just being honest when stating it, as opposed to making some psychological chess moves in what has been an otherwise well-choreographed plan. Purp is implying that Holmgren is quitting, that he's already started to check out.
Folks can tell me which one is more damning.
Holmgren has always struck me as a guy who will shoot it straight, with the qualifier being as straight as any talking head who has a lick of sense would risk. That's to say I still don't trust the words that come out of his mouth because only the foolhardy would take what these people say as the unquestioned truth. They wouldn't actually be doing their jobs if they told the truth 100% of the time. I believe Holmgren meant it when he said losing as badly as we have is unacceptable, but people need to realize what Holmgren would look like if he came right out before week 1 and thumped his chest while stating we won't accept losing and that he expects us to be much better. Not only would he be a bald-faced liar but he'd be an idiot-buffoon as well.
Holmgren's job isn't just to win games. People often forget that. Sure, winning is THE most critical thing, but his job is also to sell tickets and merchandise and make money for the owner. He said what he was supposed to say months ago, and now he's saying what he's supposed to say in order to curb unrealistic expectations.
Holmgren is no idiot. He knows how to work the media and the fans, at least for the most part. As little as I trust the words that come out of his mouth, I believe he's FAR too skilled to give any indication that he's already checking out.
Hell, just read this quote from Holmgren. If this isn't the words of a born-politician I don't know what are: ""He (Haslam) knows we’re young," he said "He’s asked a lot of questions, a lot of football questions, and he is well aware of our situation. But I’ll stick with what I said all along, even prior to this happening (the sale of the team), that my expectations are that we’re better this year."
He's sticking by his story that we're going to be improved, but he's also stating that, realistically, we're not going to be good.
The master manipulator at work.
Hey, maybe, just maybe, we'll win 6 or 7 games and Holmgren will look better.
I'm sure as Hell not gonna take that bet, just as I'm not gonna take the bet that Holmgren will have deserved, and reached, the 5th year of his contract.
Only a dope would have bought into and granted the "five year plan" after the way the first two and the start of the third have gone. Of course with his track record as an owner, Lerner qualified as a huge dope, God bless his well-intentioned heart.
Holmgren better coax some serious unexpected upside out of this roster or he's quite-likely to be out of a job, and deservedly so.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,520
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,520 |
Wow.. Such doom and gloom before ONE game.. Jeez guys, take a pill, go kick the dog, do something to release some of that pent up anger.
You really think Holmgren is WORRED about losing his job ? Saw a chance to take advantage of Randy and has been idling by, not really caring about making the team better ???
The only reason he might be worried about his job is because he wants to finsh our building. He has enough money to retire 5 times.
I see a better defense, a better run game and a better, more explosive passing game coming this year.. Does it mean we will have better record ? Who knows for sure but I promise it will be much better to watch THIS year than it has in many years. And YES, you can thank Holmgren for much of it.
Worried about his JOB ? PLEASE.............
The new owner knows what were trying to do and the last thing he wants to do is blow this up yet again.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Is what I've said so hard to believe? Can anyone say with a straight face that in the 3rd year of an NFL President's reign it's acceptable to have the youngest team in the league and be the odds-on favorite to lose the most games?
This actually happens when you start a rook QB...last season the "odds-on" favs were Carolina and Cincy....it's all about the QB
and now tell me again..which franchise QB should H&H have drafted in the previous 2 drafts? See, there goes your armchair GMing
It's easy to whine, but at least I'd like you to be on record on WHAT you would have done, which you almost never do, esp. not on very sensitive positions...at least when I lamented Mangini from day 1 I ALWAYS said WHY and what I would have done in every draft and offseason, he TALKED re-builind, and then turned around and signed 12 Bartons and 12 Ventrones...
oh, I remember now...you would have signed Campbell and wasted as many years on him as we did with Colt....I liked Campbell the PLAYER better than Colt too, but Colt the PLAN was still better than signing a FA stop gap like Campbell...we simpy had NO SHOT at a franchise QB before THIS draft....and we don't know yet how much of a fail job it was between RG and Weeden, so to fail him already before the season has even started is hindsight logic at best
and I'm not even a fan of Holmgren, to the contrary I'd be happy to take Banner over him and "sacrifice" him to Haslam as long as we keep Heckert, who is the best talent evaluator this franchise has had for a long, long time....Shurmur I'm on the fence too and this season will probably pull me one way or the other....but to trash Holmgren like that just is not fair...blame him for keeping and wasting ONE entire year with Uncle Eric, that's fair...but please don't blame him for sticking to a plan and actually DOING what he SAYS. I don't want a team full of mercenaries collecting paychecks, that's a 100% recipe for failure. I want a TEAM that grows together where the good and bad apples sort themselves out....that's a PLAN and it takes TIME. Now, maybe they don't find enough good apples...but a) it's too early to tell and b) at least there's a chance it will succeed
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 |
Quote:
It's easy to whine, but at least I'd like you to be on record on WHAT you would have done, which you almost never do
I created a thread just for the Toadmeister to tell us what he would have done and he's stayed away from that thread like the plague.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
This preseason has been the most negative around here that I can ever remember. Ridiculous threads asking things like, "Who do we draft to replace Weeden" , "When does Shurmur/Heckert/Holmgren get fired", and other outright stupidity. As far as Toad goes, the thing I love is that if things go well and all of these guys are here this time next year, you know that somehow he'll be posting that he knew it all along.  Personally, I have more hope about this team than I've had since the playoff year in 2002. Some of it is probably misplaced, but I cannot wait to see T-Rich run, Weeden throw, Gordon and Little catch passes and Cribbs run back kicks. And I'll still wear my orange # 12 jersey because I love orange! Bring it on, Negative Nancies, I'm ready for some football!!
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
I bet everyone from GM's to backups start to have some nerves this time of year...its kind of a big deal
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
and now tell me again..which franchise QB should H&H have drafted in the previous 2 drafts? See, there goes your armchair GMing
It's easy to whine, but at least I'd like you to be on record on WHAT you would have done
That's the beauty of all of us being armchair GM's: We aren't paid like the top .01% to make these moves. 
Holmgren is the great QB guru in the NFL. He believes...and the rest of the football world was lead to believe...that he knows QB's like nobody else. He believed he could turn a backup-quality QB into a legit starter. He was wrong.
But allow me to back up here and point out where your narrow-minded view fails:
Quote:
This actually happens when you start a rook QB...last season the "odds-on" favs were Carolina and Cincy....it's all about the QB
So Django has turned into a Holmgren apologist. It's all about the QB. We suck because we have a rookie QB.
Excuse me while I
Take a long hard look at this roster filled with mediocre-level talent at best, three years after he took over the reigns.
It's all about the QB? BS.
This is so much bigger than just about his failed attempt to fix the QB situation with McCoy, and his highly speculative, never-before attempted fix of bringing in a 29-year old rookie QB.
You've banged the drum loudly and proudly for what many consider to be the worst starting guard tandem in the league. Talk about their "upside" all you want but they've sucked and so far this preseason they've done very little to make people outside of Cleveland think they are any good.
Three years later we're HOPING that our safety situation is fixed. Our "permanent" fix has been TJ Ward. Sure, he's a strong tackler down near the box, but this is a passing league now, and his cover skills have been below average. It didn't help that he got injured, something that he was known for in college. Our other safety? A turn-style of failed players.
All one has to really do is look up and down the roster to see that we simply don't match up against the rest of the league in terms of talent.
At LB Jackson is solid. Gocong and Fujita are like so many other Browns LB's that have come through here which wouldn't start for most other teams in the league.
I like Sheard but we've got no real answers at the other DE position and haven't for three seasons now. People that think the combination of Rucker and whomever are fooling themselves. Simply stated, our run defense sucks now just as badly as it did for the past decade, and outside of Sheard, we have no pass-rush whatsoever.
So we can't stop the run and can't get to the QB. We have no answer at the #2 CB two non-impact OLB's, a couple of non-impact DE's (remember, people are touting the combination of the guys opposite of Sheard) and two questionable safeties.
Look, here's the short of this, and I don't have to keep listing what's wrong with each position: We're now doing in year 3 what we should have been doing in year 1. That's unacceptable, end of story. Holmgren is paid the big bucks to make the RIGHT moves, just as every one of his predecessors have done. This isn't his first time on the job. There were no readily available excuses.
Conceptually, we elected to build through the draft. Good. I'm down with that. Problem was while we had huge amounts of cap dollars still available to sign good players, we elected to stick with what we had. Problem was, which remains today, that our drafted players simply aren't all that good. Holmgren even looks like a buffoon for blowing the RG3 deal then cried like a baby over it.
I don't have to lay out my grand plan to validate passing judgment on Holmgren. Nobody does. He either fixed things or he didn't. He either has the roster in a good place or he doesn't. He either chose correctly with Mangini or he didn't. He either chose correctly with McCoy or he didn't. Remember, he interjected his weight and forced that one on Heckert. He has to answer for that.
I like some of the moves, but when push really comes to shove, nobody with a mind not muddled by the color Brown can say that after 3 years worth of free agent signings and drafts that we have a talent level equal to even the middle of the league. We have huge question marks at too many positions, including the most important one on the field. There is nothing acceptable about that.
Now the good part about all this is that if the team makes some solid strides in terms of development then Holmgren can get himself off the hook, but someone has to answer for the inferior development so far. That man is Holmgren, especially since he's put his own fingerprints on the QB situation, first by whiffing on McCoy, then by whiffing on RG3.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
So Django has turned into a Holmgren apologist. It's all about the QB. We suck because we have a rookie QB.
I stopped here because the premises are wrong...wher in that last paragraph am I being a Holmgren apologist, lol...maybe the part where I said I'd take Banner over him asap?
and btw, we don't SUCK yet...we haven't even played a snap of real football. YOUR point was we are slated to suck by Vegas...I countered with a simple fact...that Vegas had Cincy and Carolina slated to suck...and the common denominator in both scenarios is? Yep, rookie QB....Vegas simply didn't know if Dalton or Newton were any good...and they (and us) don't know yet with Weeden
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Ok, you stopped reading. That means you don't get to reply to anything else. 
And yes, you're apologizing for Holmgren. You said flat-out he couldn't get a franchise QB. He managed to do it when he got to Seattle, didn't he. But, again, it's not just about the QB, as I clearly explained.
Wanted to come back and say something I've said before. I liked some of the things Holmgren has done here. I loved the hiring of smart, proven, veteran coaches. Guys like Jauron and Chilly are excellent coordinators and know their respective disciplines well. I like the make-up of Shurmur, though all we've been able to see is his sour-side, as he's had to watch the roster he was given go out there and lay eggs week after week. I'm a huge believer in Heckert. I've also never bought into the BS theory that he hasn't been fully committed to Cleveland. That's just a bunch of impatient, insecure fans wanting the people who operate the organization to bleed, eat, sleep, and crap Brown and Orange 24-hours a day.
Where I've lost a bunch of faith (not all the faith) with Holmgren has been on several fronts. The first is that he didn't come here with this great track record as an executive. The factual truth is that he wasn't all that great in Seattle and was demoted. The second is that he's a meddler. He promised that he'd let his people do their jobs...right up until it's time for him to stick his nose into their affairs because he thinks he knows better. That's a HUGE one with me. Then of course he let his heart get in the way of his mind when it came to keeping Mangini due to some old coaches loyalty thing, unless word ever gets out that Lerner asked that Mangini be kept due to financial reasons.
To make this crystal-clear, I feel as though Heckert is a great hire, and if he's given the ability to do the job his way, we'll have a winner. I feel that Holmgren has been pulling the strings and that if you separate the two men and evaluate them individually, Heckert has done a credible job while Holmgren has done less than that which is acceptable. Holmgren has a great track record of assistant coaches and coaching himself, but his track record as an executive shot-caller has been spotty, and he failed out of the gate here.
Simply stated, he's out of mulligans, and if Shurmur and Weeden fail, Holmgren deserves to be fired.
Now it's inevitable that someone is going to have read that and said "He's setting Holmgren up for failure! Weeden is a rookie!"
So let me define failure as it pertains to Weeden, and it's not that complex. He either makes good strides as a rookie, or he doesn't. End of story. Weeden doesn't have to win 9 games to be considered a success as a rookie. He doesn't even have to throw more TD's than INT's or complete 60% of his passes. But he does have to look polished to a certain degree, because that's what Holmgren sold people when justifying a very risky move.
I've defended Holmgren on some things that have unfairly been leveled at him, but he's made too many blunders for a guy that came to this job with experience. It's not at all unfair that he be held accountable, and that he has to answer for those mistakes.
Holmgren's history with QB's earned him a mulligan after McCoy, but no executive can miss back-to-back on QB's and survive the ax. If Shurmur fails, that will also have been Holmgren's second head coach which crapped out. Again, no executive survives those things. Well, Matt Millen did.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Ok, couldn't resist and I've read the rest I banged the drum hard for Pinkston, that's right and I still think he's gonna be good enough between Thomas and Mack to win with...Lauvao, I was ok with the pick, not ok with his development in his 2nd year...I've said multiple times that he was the OL version of Colt..and you know what I think about Colt...but still my question remains: HOW do you build a team? You can't invest top 50 picks in every position...Steelers have a much worse OL and are investing picks in the Lauvao area almost every draft...they just cut one of those in T.Essex....take a look around the league: EVERY good team has some below AVG to BAD starters somewhere...NYG had plenty of them along their OL Ward: again, take a look around the league at SS....MOST SS starters are well below AVG vs the pass, even the allLOVED Pola, it's noc coincidence they let him free-lance...he isn't and wasn't all that in coverage...even good FS nowadays are hard to fing, it's a shallow position, probably because it doesn't attract the best athletes as CB is were the money is...I expect that to change in the upcoming years though. And just to quote another "expert" opinion: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/04/05/draft-grader-cleveland-browns/"T.J. Ward, SS (38th overall pick in 2010): The state of safety play in the NFL isn’t great, so kudos to the Browns for finding a guy who came in straight away and looked the part. Extremely active in the run game, Ward has earned a +10.9 grade over two years in this regard. Also helping is the fact he’s an excellent special-teamer." They even had him as a "secret superstar" : http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/04/05/draft-grader-cleveland-browns/I also, listed the players drafted AFTER Ward more than once...and never got any response from you, water or Kendall....wonder why? Next, the DE...we simply disagree here. I believe Rucker/Parker are a good stop gap vet-combo...somehwat funny and two-faced that you lament going with an all rook team and the ONLY position we filled through FA with 2 established and valued vets...you still cry about  What is it now? Mario Williams or bust? Really? I thought (and know) you are better than that I still don't have an answer to your QB solution....it's either Campbell or Colt...and 4 or 6 wins isn't much of a difference right? What franchise QB did we miss out on in the previous 2 drafts? RG vs Weeden is still wide open...any yes, if RG is clearly better than Weeden (don't forget the compensation involved..he really has to be CLEARLY better), THEN you have a valid point I simply disagree that our draft picks suck, Heckert drafted WELL ABOVE league AVG....just do me a favor and compare his drafts to other teams before you say stuff like that. I'm a 100% draft nerd down to UDFAs, you're not gonna fool me when it comes to comparing drafts to other team's drafts...we actually outdrafted the Steelers by a large margin since he's here and we've owned the LOS in the past 2 seasons against them...it's a start, we need that QB and we'll start to beat them I also somewhat disagree that we SHOULD have done that year 1. I get your point, and the mistake was keeping Mangini, who was in win now mode and you could sense that Heckert and him didn't mesh, as probably Heckert wanted to go young back then....any YES, that's 100% on Holmgren, no doubt...but if we would have gone THIS young year 1, we would have won 1 or 2 games at best as the "core" that was drafted by Heckert in those 2 drafts simply wasn't in place YET...we needed guy like Fujita, Gocong, Usama, Pashos etc to bridge the gap... again, this is somewhat inconsequential in your reasoning...you want more TALENT and you don't care where that comes from...but look at the TALENT core inherited from Mangini and those before: Thomas, Mack, Rubin, Dqwell....that's pretty much IT...you want another 18 TALENTED guys to go along with them? Well, that takes time and money...even AVG or worse NFL talent costs a fortune in FA (look at what Eric Wright got), so with our shallow "base" that made little sense to invest heavily there (Mario Williams etc)...so what's left? Draft and stop gap "meh" FAs...if you expect them to outsmart the enire league and find quality FAs for little money (and they've hit on some: Patterson, Watson have been solid) you're expecting to much...same with the drafts: you simply can't expect them to draft AllPros in from the 3rd round on because 99% of the players drafted from there aren't Heckert has drafted above AVG or better players with EVERY top 50 pick in the past 2 drafts (this remains to be seen)...not many GMs have that clean a record...go look them up
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745 |
the difference between the Browns and the Panthers/Bengals is that those teams weren't banking on a billion rookie starters and 2nd year starters to get there teams above .500
The Bengals were a year removed from winning the North and sweeping the division.
they already had alot more talent in place than the Browns have this year.
Cam Newton had Steve Smith, Wiiliams and Stewart,Greg Olsen on offense.
their defense was hit hard by injuries. Newton had to throw for 300 YDS to keep them in games.they were always playing catch up.
But the talent level on the Browns team now is still on the bottom tier of the NFL.
the defense is missing playmakers all over. The front 7 has Rubin,Jackson and Sheard. Good players..but not dominant players.
The secondary has one standout..Joe Haden.
Hagg hasn't shown squat. Ward gets caught out of position.
The offense has tons of upside. But Lavaou and Pinkston are the worst tandem in the AFC. Richardson will really earn his yards this year. Marecic sucks. I hope he wears football gloves this year.
the depth on the o-line is embarrassing. Greco and Cousins,why are they on this roster.
again,the Browns could have gone in free agency and improved their depth here,same as the WR's.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren Feeling Squirrelly About
The Season
|
|
