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Richard A. Posner, a widely respected federal judge, called for the elimination of criminal laws against marijuana in a September 6 lecture at Elmhurst College in Illinois. Judge Posner, a member of the influential United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit in Chicago, is an intellectual giant who is the most-cited judge in America. His call for legalization is significant because Posner is considered a legal conservative. “I don’t think we should have a fraction of the drug laws that we have. I think it’s really absurd to be criminalizing possession or use or distribution of marijuana,” he said. “I can’t see any difference between that and cigarettes.” The audience gave him a round of applause. In his introduction of Posner, Judge William J. Bauer, his colleague on the 7th Circuit, called him “a genius.” Posner has written hundreds of court opinions and 40 books on many topics. Law schools have classes devoted to his legal rulings. He attended Yale College, was valedictorian when he graduated from Harvard Law School and started his legal career as a clerk for the Supreme Court of the United States. “But also I’m skeptical about the other drug laws,” Judge Posner added. “The notion of using the criminal law as the primary means of dealing with a problem of addiction, of misuse, of ingesting dangerous drugs — I don’t think that’s sensible at all.” He said drug laws are “responsible for a high percentage of our prisoners. And these punishments are often very, very severe. It’s all very expensive.” Judge Posner has pointed out that legalizing marijuana and other drugs would save federal, state and local governments $41.3 billion per year. He said drug laws are, “…a waste of a lot of high quality legal minds, and it’s also a waste of people’s lives who could be as least moderately productive with having to spend year after year in prison. That is a serious problem.” The entire speech can be found on YouTube. link To those not aware, the circuit court is one step below the Supreme Court. While the lecture is just his opinion, if it becomes judicial opinion (he chooses not to convict someone of marijuana use), it could lead to a Supreme Court case on the legalization of marijuana.
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100% Legalization is too much to bite off all at once in my opinion. Follow Cali's example first.
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I am almost to the point where I would treat marijuana like we do cigarettes. Regulate them, tax the crap out of them, and make it a crime for someone to sell it without a license. Imagine someone paying $30 for a joint, with $27 or so going to drug treatment programs, job training, hiring of additional enforcement agents, and so on. I think that might be OK.
I would let ATF handle enforcement, even though this might require a small increase in the number of agents.
I would draw the line at marijuana though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Good. It should be legalized. The time is past due on this.
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Quote:
Richard A. Posner, a widely respected federal judge, called for the elimination of criminal laws against marijuana in a September 6 lecture at Elmhurst College in Illinois.
Judge Posner, a member of the influential United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit in Chicago, is an intellectual giant who is the most-cited judge in America. His call for legalization is significant because Posner is considered a legal conservative.
“I don’t think we should have a fraction of the drug laws that we have. I think it’s really absurd to be criminalizing possession or use or distribution of marijuana,” he said. “I can’t see any difference between that and cigarettes.” The audience gave him a round of applause.
In his introduction of Posner, Judge William J. Bauer, his colleague on the 7th Circuit, called him “a genius.” Posner has written hundreds of court opinions and 40 books on many topics. Law schools have classes devoted to his legal rulings. He attended Yale College, was valedictorian when he graduated from Harvard Law School and started his legal career as a clerk for the Supreme Court of the United States.
“But also I’m skeptical about the other drug laws,” Judge Posner added. “The notion of using the criminal law as the primary means of dealing with a problem of addiction, of misuse, of ingesting dangerous drugs — I don’t think that’s sensible at all.”
He said drug laws are “responsible for a high percentage of our prisoners. And these punishments are often very, very severe. It’s all very expensive.” Judge Posner has pointed out that legalizing marijuana and other drugs would save federal, state and local governments $41.3 billion per year.
He said drug laws are, “…a waste of a lot of high quality legal minds, and it’s also a waste of people’s lives who could be as least moderately productive with having to spend year after year in prison. That is a serious problem.”
The entire speech can be found on YouTube.
link
To those not aware, the circuit court is one step below the Supreme Court. While the lecture is just his opinion, if it becomes judicial opinion (he chooses not to convict someone of marijuana use), it could lead to a Supreme Court case on the legalization of marijuana.
It's not up to him, though. He, through his viewpoint, knows he has to follow what is written by the legislature. It's more than just simply choosing not to convict someone of marijuana use, and criminal drug laws are a lot more cut and dry with a "loophole" defense being few and far between.
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I don't have much of an opinion on either side of the argument... but I don't see how a judge could "choose not to convict" someone if it was proven they broke the law (even if the judge disagrees with the law).
He has a right to his opinion but he has an obligation to enforce the law.
<><
#gmstrong
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I am almost to the point where I would treat marijuana like we do cigarettes. Regulate them, tax the crap out of them, and make it a crime for someone to sell it without a license. Imagine someone paying $30 for a joint, with $27 or so going to drug treatment programs, job training, hiring of additional enforcement agents, and so on. I think that might be OK.
I would let ATF handle enforcement, even though this might require a small increase in the number of agents.
I would draw the line at marijuana though.
This would never work.
Marijuana is very easy to grow. One can do it with a very small investment, and minimal effort. Couple that with the fact that it already has a stable underground market, and you're not going to find many people willing to pay $30 a joint, when they can get 10-15x that much from someone who grows it in their basement (or grows it themselves at a fraction of the cost).
A very small number of users would go the route you've described. 10% or less, I'd guess. There would be revenue, but a fraction of what we take in now.
It's easy cultivation is a main reason that it's illegal - the government makes far more profit from the drug being illegal than otherwise.
And why draw the line at marijuana? Anytime a gun control or drug legalization thread pops up, I always ask - why do so many feel that guns shouldn't be restricted, but that drugs should?
(I don't know your views on gun control, just bringing it up as a general point.)
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We make money off of cigarettes, so why not do the same with marijuana? If people want it legalized, then there has to be a compromise. This would be mine.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
I don't have much of an opinion on either side of the argument... but I don't see how a judge could "choose not to convict" someone if it was proven they broke the law (even if the judge disagrees with the law).
He has a right to his opinion but he has an obligation to enforce the law.
He could state that the law is unconstitutional on numerous grounds which I won't bog the board down in and can therefore challenge the entire constitutionality of the law in the first place.
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Imagine someone paying $30 for a joint
Charge me $30 a joint, and I'll still be getting it elsewhere 
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Imagine someone paying $30 for a joint
Charge me $30 a joint, and I'll still be getting it elsewhere
ATF is rather aggressive at hunting down those who break laws.
At one time, it was cheaper for people in certain areas to grow their own tobacco, and roll their own cigarettes. It still is cheaper to buy tobacco at a shop, and roll your own cigarettes. How many people do that today though?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Practice Squad
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the government makes far more profit from the drug being illegal than otherwise.
Really? How does the government profit off something it takes no cash in from, yet spends billions on to eradicate?
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We make money off of cigarettes, so why not do the same with marijuana?
Apples and oranges.
1) Marijuana is very simple to grow. Anyone can do it, from anywhere. You can grow pot in a closet. No so with tobacco.
2) Marijuana already has a strong underground market. Even if one didn't want to grow it themselves, dodging taxes would be incredibly easy. Not so with tobacco.
If you could grow quality tobacco in a closet with a small kit, how many people do you think would pay $5-10 for a pack of smokes?
Not very many.
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Quote:
Quote:
We make money off of cigarettes, so why not do the same with marijuana?
Apples and oranges.
1) Marijuana is very simple to grow. Anyone can do it, from anywhere. You can grow pot in a closet. No so with tobacco.
2) Marijuana already has a strong underground market. Even if one didn't want to grow it themselves, dodging taxes would be incredibly easy. Not so with tobacco.
If you could grow quality tobacco in a closet with a small kit, how many people do you think would pay $5-10 for a pack of smokes?
Not very many.
As I stated above, people can go into a tobacco shop and buy tobacco, and roll their own ...... but most don't. It's cheaper to roll your own cigarettes, yet almost no one does it.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I have always been in favor of decriminalization of marijuana. It will take the violence out of the equation ... just as it did when prohibition was repealed. I'm also in favor of taking it off the class one narcotics list, so that real research can be made for science and medicine. Though I think that the pharmaceutical industry is the major blocking force against it, so they can keep trying to push their (high priced) synthesized drugs on us, that more times then not do more harm then good.  Mark my words ... this plant is the wounder drug of the future with it's 150+ Cannabinoids
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Quote:
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the government makes far more profit from the drug being illegal than otherwise.
Really? How does the government profit off something it takes no cash in from, yet spends billions on to eradicate?
Not to mention the lives lost with the War on this plant.
As I have stated before I'm in favor of decriminalization.
Ignorance is the root of all evil.
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Quote:
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We make money off of cigarettes, so why not do the same with marijuana?
Apples and oranges.
1) Marijuana is very simple to grow. Anyone can do it, from anywhere. You can grow pot in a closet. No so with tobacco.
2) Marijuana already has a strong underground market. Even if one didn't want to grow it themselves, dodging taxes would be incredibly easy. Not so with tobacco.
If you could grow quality tobacco in a closet with a small kit, how many people do you think would pay $5-10 for a pack of smokes?
Not very many.
It's just this kind of thinking/ideology that has us in the mess we find ourselves in today.
If it grows ...tax it ... if it moves tax it ect.....
I think that your guilty of thinking inside the box here.
If it grows and if it's moved I have full confidence that the tax collectors will find ways of making it profitable for the government. 
New medicines will come out of research and that will lead to profits for companies and the Government alike.
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I can't wait for the 2nd hand smoke arguments on this one.
Time for some popcorn...
#GMSTRONG
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It's not about making it profitable, it's about making it more profitable than it is now, with the drug being illegal.
If we legalized marijuana, regulated it and taxed it, the federal government would lose revenue that they currently receive from the drug being illegal.
If the government could find a way to make more money than they do now by legalizing marijuana, they would. But they can't.
There's more revenue in the drug being illegal, than there is in the drug being legal.
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If we legalized marijuana, regulated it and taxed it, the federal government would lose revenue that they currently receive from the drug being illegal.
Which revenue, specifically, are you talking about?
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It's not about making it profitable, it's about making it more profitable than it is now, with the drug being illegal.
If we legalized marijuana, regulated it and taxed it, the federal government would lose revenue that they currently receive from the drug being illegal.
If the government could find a way to make more money than they do now by legalizing marijuana, they would. But they can't.
There's more revenue in the drug being illegal, than there is in the drug being legal.
Why does it always have to do with taxes and profit with some people?
How is it profitable today?
How much money is spent on the task forces, federally funded all across this country? Jail/prisons and our judicial system ?
What price can you put on the lives lost?
What about the lost revenue (money taken out of our economy) that ends up south of the border?
Your point on missing out on taxes is really lost on me.
Anyone who cares to can grow their own vegetables.
What about that lost revenue?
I say more power to them who do.
There is a difference in Legalization and Decriminalization. The latter being the direction/action I support.
Last edited by FL_Dawg; 09/08/12 03:12 PM.
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Asset and property seizures, mostly.
If I'm growing/selling marijuana in large quantities, and I'm busted, any money that I can't account for legally has a high likelihood of being seized by local, state or federal governments. They can seize my car or (less likely, but possible) my home if it can proven that either were used in the operation.
Now, you have a lot of economists out there who will say that legalizing marijuana will increase revenue, but their figures almost always wipe out prohibition enforcement expenditures.
But legalizing and regulating marijuana wouldn't stop the need for prohibition enforcement - you'd still have to police those who are trying to subvert the regulation/taxation, which would be a lot of people.
Not to mention the problems that come, legally, from saying, 'Hey, this is legal now, it's regulated and taxed. But you can't grow it yourself.' I don't see a legal basis for that.
And if you allow people to grow it themselves - and I don't know how you can't tell someone they can't grow something that is legal to consume - then you've wiped out a huge sector of the marketplace that you're relying on for revenue.
Marijuana isn't like tobacco, and it isn't like alcohol, in the sense that any fool with a few hundred to spend on a kit and an increased electric bill can easily grow high-quality stuff with very little time or effort, and in doing so would save them a substantial amount of cash as opposed to purchasing a regulated/taxed product.
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Quote:
If I'm growing/selling marijuana in large quantities, and I'm busted, any money that I can't account for legally has a high likelihood of being seized by local, state or federal governments. They can seize my car or (less likely, but possible) my home if it can proven that either were used in the operation.
I've got to think that the amount of money the government gets from that is nowhere near $42 billion ( $10.7 billion in direct law enforcement costs, and $31.1 billion in lost tax revenues) link
Add to that the fact that you're jailing innocent people and overcrowding prisons, and to me it is neither a mathematical, fiscally sound or practical solution.
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There is already a model in place, whereas people grow for medical sales and the government gets their cut (I'll bet a tidy sum).
Why should you or anyone care if a person grows it for personal use ... it's no different then a person growing and canning their own vegetables.
Even if it was legalized it would still be illegal to distribute or transport the product without proper permits.
The associated fines would still be a means of revenue for law enforcement.
Asset and property seizures help offset the coast, but by know means does it support it.
Your lucky if it pays for the fuel for the helicopter.
Where not talking about Miami Vise and the cocaine lords in most cases.
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And if you allow people to grow it themselves - and I don't know how you can't tell someone they can't grow something that is legal to consume - then you've wiped out a huge sector of the marketplace that you're relying on for revenue.
The same way they outlaw making moonshine and liquor stores are everywhere.
#GMSTRONG
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$30 is too high is the problem with your concept. The idea is good, the price point defeats the idea.
The casual user probably smokes an average of 1-2 joints max a day, most probably less than that. Sell that one joint for say $5 and it would sell. Low enough to discourage home growth for the average user.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Quote:
Quote:
And if you allow people to grow it themselves - and I don't know how you can't tell someone they can't grow something that is legal to consume - then you've wiped out a huge sector of the marketplace that you're relying on for revenue.
The same way they outlaw making moonshine and liquor stores are everywhere.
While I understand your argument, I just dont see it as an apples-to-apples comparison. Improper distillation processes can lead to methanol production instead of just ethanol. If someone drinks too much methanol, they go blind. The reason moonshine isn't legal is because it could potentially cause harm to someone if the proper safety mechanisms aren't in place. You can't do something like this to a cannabis plant; growing it poorly just results in subpar buds, not in bodily harm.
There are no sacred cows.
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I disagree. The reason moonshine is illegal is because the gov't. can't tax it.
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PDR, my friend I believe you are drawing from the wrong examples. No one grows tobacco...true. Very few brew their own beer or make their own wine, it's just easier to go to the store.. I can grill my own burgers...but still more often buy them at my favorite pub. I could make my own shoes, but I don't.
If marijuana were legal... And if all barriers to entry were removed I believe it most closely resemble the beer industry.
*** in no way am I saying that Budweiser is a superior product, cause its crap actually but my point is that a large corporation leveraging returns of scale would be a major player in this hypothetical marketplace.
Some group some where would be able to deliver a superior product at a reasonable price and spend millions on brand marketing. The Budweiser of marijuana would be born. At the same time, each metropolitan area would also have their own local strands that would flourish but not have more than a regional appeal..,this would be the Great Lakes, Goose Island, Yazoo, Abita...etc.
Sure there might still be folks that grow their personal stashes... But the consumer mentality of the USA would eventually win out.
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Quote:
The casual user probably smokes an average of 1-2 joints max a day
I'd hate to see how much a regular user smokes. 
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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I disagree. The reason moonshine is illegal is because the gov't. can't tax it.
While that's probably partially true, there are potential health hazards to drinking real moonshine. It just takes one person's carelessness to blind half a dozen people for the rest of their lives. At worst, something like this happens.
There are no sacred cows.
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India?
Hey, there are potential health hazards to anything we do.
Wanna be healthy and go for a run? You might get hit by a car.
Eating hot dogs, or processed meat? Your chances of colon cancer go way, way up.
Actually - just living is a risk.
The reason moonshine is illegal is because the gov't. can't tax it.
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Quote:
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And if you allow people to grow it themselves - and I don't know how you can't tell someone they can't grow something that is legal to consume - then you've wiped out a huge sector of the marketplace that you're relying on for revenue.
The same way they outlaw making moonshine and liquor stores are everywhere.
While I understand your argument, I just dont see it as an apples-to-apples comparison. Improper distillation processes can lead to methanol production instead of just ethanol. If someone drinks too much methanol, they go blind. The reason moonshine isn't legal is because it could potentially cause harm to someone if the proper safety mechanisms aren't in place. You can't do something like this to a cannabis plant; growing it poorly just results in subpar buds, not in bodily harm.
If it was a public health issue, why were the moonshiners, rum runners and every other back woods still operator concerned with who they referred to as the "revenuers"?
rev·e·nu·er (rv-nr, -ny-)
n.
Informal - A government agent in charge of collecting revenue, especially one responsible for halting the unlawful distilling or bootlegging of alcohol.
But I'm sure that protecting the hillbillies and rednecks from melting the enamel on their teeth was paramount to the revenuers too. 
#GMSTRONG
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$60 a pack for 20 of them, and bust the hell out of anybody selling them on the black market or growing them their selves. i mean how stupid do you have to be to tell people with cancer they can't smoke a joint but they can have all the morphine and oxy's they want 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Moonshine is illegal today for the very same reason it became illegal originally,the gov't could not collect tax revenue.
That is precisely the reason pot is illegal and will probably remain so.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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I don't get the thrill of morphine.
It makes you somewhat foggy and takes away some pain. It doesn't really do much beyond that, except in the doses they pump right into you in the hospital.The over the counter stuff though ...... I can't imagine anyone wanting to feel as cruddy as I feel on this stuff.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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This will make next weeks Bill Maher Real Time monologue.
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 My girlfriend has serious Fibromyalgia amongst other ailments common to those who have Fibro. I've learned over the last year that there's a terrible misconception as to exactly what Fibro is. People think "Oh, it just causes some pain" but the reality is that the level of pain is life-altering and ever-constant. She used to be a rower and worked out every day. She was a gymnast, so her back, shoulders, and legs were ripped with muscle. Now she can barely take her dog for a walk without having to take a pain med. Marijuana works as effectively as the other over-the-counter drugs, and has the added benefit of helping her sleep. She's had a sleeping disorder since she was a child.
The drug laws against things like pot existed for mostly wrong reasons, even if the intent of the laws today are designed to stop those who would abuse drugs. It's a slippery slope. If you legalize it all the way in one swift stroke it will end very badly for both sides. However, if it's introduced in a controlled manner with solid laws and governing bodies looking after things, legalizing pot would be a good thing.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224 |
Quote:
My girlfriend has serious Fibromyalgia amongst other ailments common to those who have Fibro. I've learned over the last year that there's a terrible misconception as to exactly what Fibro is. People think "Oh, it just causes some pain" but the reality is that the level of pain is life-altering and ever-constant. She used to be a rower and worked out every day. She was a gymnast, so her back, shoulders, and legs were ripped with muscle. Now she can barely take her dog for a walk without having to take a pain med. Marijuana works as effectively as the other over-the-counter drugs, and has the added benefit of helping her sleep. She's had a sleeping disorder since she was a child.
The drug laws against things like pot existed for mostly wrong reasons, even if the intent of the laws today are designed to stop those who would abuse drugs. It's a slippery slope. If you legalize it all the way in one swift stroke it will end very badly for both sides. However, if it's introduced in a controlled manner with solid laws and governing bodies looking after things, legalizing pot would be a good thing.
My Mom is the same, Fibro and Sjogrens for years. The doctors had a standing prescription for her at the pharmacy for god knows what. A few years ago my dad convinced her to try marijuana to see if it helped, and it changed her life. She's smokes once a day, in the evening, right after dinner and she's had the best sleep in almost a decade because of it. Also, she moves around like she's in her 50's again, not in her 70's. I was a skeptic at first, but this instance has made me do a 180 on the topic. It's amazing.
There are no sacred cows.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224 |
Quote:
India?
Hey, there are potential health hazards to anything we do.
Wanna be healthy and go for a run? You might get hit by a car.
Eating hot dogs, or processed meat? Your chances of colon cancer go way, way up.
Actually - just living is a risk.
The reason moonshine is illegal is because the gov't. can't tax it.
Like I said, you're not wrong. The government gets a lot of money for allowing people to distill moonshine and sell it, I'm not debating that. The only thing I'm saying is that there's another (ie in addition to) good reason that it's illegal, and that's because if a distiller isn't careful they can cause bodily harm to a large number of people by using poor methods and cheap parts. The government regulates this business because of that. The have to certify that a still is up to code, and won't hurt anyone in order for the people to be allowed to sell on a large scale. It's just like the FDA and department of agriculture that have industry standards for meat, drugs, etc. If you want to sell moonshine, you agree to do it so that A.) The government gets their taxes and B.) ensure you're not going to poison and kill someone. So while you all look at like the government is just being a pesky nuisance again, I see this as something the government was formed to do; protect me from people who would cut corners and knowingly injure me when I'm going about my daily business.
So I guess what I don't understand is why what I'm saying is wrong in everyone's eyes. Because what it seems to me like you all are saying the government is making up that moonshine can potentially make you go blind or result in heavy metal poisoning in order to collect more taxes.
In that vein, I don't think I'm out of line in saying the things we ingest need to be clean and safe, because we're not a developing country, we're not India. We should be able to eat and drink things without worrying if we'll get sick. Of course you can get hurt going to the store to pick up groceries. That doesn't mean that we should take out traffic lights, or police officers, or stop signs. Just because people get hurt doing mundane things, doesn't mean the steps we take to minimize risk are all for naught. The government enacting and enforcing certain standards for food, water, etc. are the good regulations. If they weren't in place, we'd have melamine in food (china) and/or methanol in our alcoholic drinks.
There are no sacred cows.
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Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Most-cited judge in the USA calls
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