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whats it gonna take for this o-line to get a attitude and idenity?
Trent Richardson had very few holes to hit and do his damage.
all I heard in the off season was how nasty and mean Lauvao was and Pinkston was attending a school created by LeCharles Bentley.
when was the last time the Browns o-line just mauled and manhandled a front 7..back to 2010 when Hillis was running wild over the Pats?
If you can't run the ball in the North,you will be drafting in the top 5 again next year.
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They need to wait until they play against a less D-Line.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Ask Childress, Cromwell, and Shurmur.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Teams are going to stack the box until the QB proves he can beat them. Colt couldnt do it last year and Weeden couldnt this year. Receivers were beating single coverage only to have Weeden throw it 5 yards over their head.
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Quote:
Teams are going to stack the box until the QB proves he can beat them. Colt couldnt do it last year and Weeden couldnt this year. Receivers were beating single coverage only to have Weeden throw it 5 yards over their head.
This. Philly was gashed against the run last year, and with all apologies to any DeMarco Ryan fans they will be gashed again this year I imagine. The Eagles stacked 8-9 in the box daring us to beat them and we couldn't do it. We couldn't do it last year, and we didn't do it today. I am not as optimistic about our OL as some but they are not the reason we stunk on O today. Weeden was......until he gets better Trent won't have much running room. As a matter of fact, we play a much better run D next week against the Bungels......will be interesting to see how we respond.
Last edited by BigWillieStyle; 09/09/12 07:40 PM.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Quote:
Sadly, I agree. And it is a heck of a line. Note ALL the variety of ways we used TR today. I like his chances outside. Still running a jammed box in the middle all game. I do not need to see it fail all day (calling a given play) and stop doing it or changing it. No swings, sweeps, etc. to speak of. Shurmur sure can call 'em — again and again. Looked every bit as bad as last year. We will need to pass to be able to run. Hint: It is less crowded on the outside.   
I actually think the oline looked a hell of a lot better than the last 2 preseason games.
But you know, when you can stack the los because Derek Anderson 2.0 is missing his throws by miles its going to be hard for a back to break a long one because 5 guys can't move 7-9 dline, lbs and safeties.
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Teams are going to stack the box until the QB proves he can beat them. Colt couldnt do it last year and Weeden couldnt this year. Receivers were beating single coverage only to have Weeden throw it 5 yards over their head.
Nah.
Granted, I didn't tape the game so I couldn't go back and rewatch it, but my recollection on numerous run plays was that the Eagles were in their base 4-3 and we still couldn't get any push whatsoever up the middle. The REAL litmus test was when we put our big fatties up against their big fatties, ie: both lines went with their heavy packages. They did to us what the police did to Rodney King.
Frankly, the answer to the subject question is as follows: The line sucks.
It's sucked for every year but one since '99, our guards suck, and our RT is a rookie, who may or may not suck, which has yet to be determined.
Richardson was molested so many times before he even got to the LOS that he never stood a chance.
Pinky did better than Lauvao in the pass-blocking game, but both guys AND Schwartz sucked ballz in getting any push at all.
Now to put a final negative perspective on this, we still have to play the Ravens and Steelers D-line's four more times this year, and historically speaking, offensive lines don't make big strides during the season. That essentially means what we saw today is what we're going to see the rest of the year.
What floors me is that we invested so damned heavily in Richardson and Weeden, but we invested so lightly in the guards and TE's. We have it so damned backwards...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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For the 100th time Toad:
If you'd list all 32 NFL teams and look at OL "investment" we'd be Top 5
and if OUR OL was trash then Philly's and PIT's are what exactly? But yeah, you're right....why select a QB in round 1 when you can have this uber-G in DeCastro who was outplayed by an UDFA in preseason action and looked like a total bum out there...and now trashing the TRich selection too? lol....you've been his biggest pimp from February to April, weren't you?
@Mourg
At least Weeden throws where it's supposed to go..his game and INTs got worse by the minute which tells me he simply lost confidence during the game....and I hope this incredibly stupid fanbase doesn't turn him into the next checkdown captain. His 1st INT was a good pass, his 2nd was a good gamble on 3rd and long and the end result was the same as a punt, but at least he had a jump ball chance of a big play....Benjamin not fighting for the ball didn't help. He probably still thinks he has Blackmon out there.....from there, he was terrible and overshot everything.
The missed TD to A.Smith is also worth noting...while he overthrew that too this was a TD throw to any WR or athletic TE....Smith looked like going in slow motion and never got his feet from the ground...what a useless plodder
If the D keeps this up I have no doubt that our Offense will manage enough points to win games. Weeden needed some spark plays and they just didn't come and his game went south from there but at least he still wasn't afraid to THROW the damn ball...we all know that McCoy would have reverted to turtle dump off mode after INT no2, if not earlier because he would be calculating his QB rating on the field and go stat whore from there no matter what his team needs....also, some people forget that the Eagles have an AllPro at every 2nd spot on D
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Quote:
our guards suck, and our RT is a rookie, who may or may not suck, which has yet to be determined.
Richardson was molested so many times before he even got to the LOS that he never stood a chance.
Pinky did better than Lauvao in the pass-blocking game, but both guys AND Schwartz sucked ballz in getting any push at all.
With Thomas on one side and Mack on the other, I think this is why Pinkston looks a little better. I'd bet if you switched Lauvao and Pinkston, Lauvao would look better.
People need to realise that the Cleveland media for the most part are a bunch of homers. They also need to realise that the coaching staff, team president and GM, no matter who they are, will always talk up the team and their players.
Reality will not be found listenning to any of those people. They invested a third round pick in Lauvao. Good G's can be had in round 3. But Lauvao isn't one of them.
I've said the exact same thing as you have about our G play. I may see it slightly different than you however. In our first two drafts, the D was where the major investments were. This was the first year that the O took top priority.
You only have so many picks in any one draft. You can only replace so many players in one draft. I believe this class was very weak at G and that even includes De Castro.
But Lauvao was certainly a miss in the third round and the quicker we address the G position to remedy that, the better our run game will be.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Heckert has missed quite a bit in the mid RDs. He only looks good as a GM because of the guys that came before him and because the Browns refuse to bring
starters in via free agency.
I could tell from last year Lauvoa wasn't worth a darn.
He didn't disapoint yesterday.
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One of my favorite sayings...
your skilled position players on offense...QB, RBs, TEs and WRs... will never reach their full potential if their offensive line does not support them by block well.
...a QB must be given time and protected by his offensive line.
...a RB must have a hole to run through.
...if the QB is not protected while passing the football, the WRs, TEs and receiving RBs will never achieve their full potential.
The most important unit on offense is still "the offensive line".
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Quote:
For the 100th time Toad:
If you'd list all 32 NFL teams and look at OL "investment" we'd be Top 5
Doesn't mean a damned thing if the "investment" is crap.
This isn't about a concept. This is about talent. It doesn't matter where you found a guard. It matters...wait for it....WAIT...FOR...IT....if the guy can play. 
As for Richardson, what in the world are you talking about man?
Lastly, we have something like $13 million in cap space. We could have easily found a guard or a real blocking TE in free agency instead of hoarding our money.
Not all "investments" have to come through the draft. It's OK to spend a little in free agency...unless you're the Browns, apparently.
And that's my point. We spent HUGE on the skill positions but gambled on Pinky and Lauvao. So far, the evaluations on those guys have been wrong. So what insurance did we go get in case they continued to play like they did last year? Squat.
That's what I mean by investing heavily at QB and RB then not bothering to protect those investments by making strides to sure up the line.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
One of my favorite sayings...
your skilled position players on offense...QB, RBs, TEs and WRs... will never reach their full potential if their offensive line does not support them by block well.
...a QB must be given time and protected by his offensive line.
...a RB must have a hole to run through.
...if the QB is not protected while passing the football, the WRs, TEs and receiving RBs will never achieve their full potential.
The most important unit on offense is still "the offensive line".
And our pass blocking was pretty good yesterday.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Quote:
One of my favorite sayings...
your skilled position players on offense...QB, RBs, TEs and WRs... will never reach their full potential if their offensive line does not support them by block well.
...a QB must be given time and protected by his offensive line.
...a RB must have a hole to run through.
...if the QB is not protected while passing the football, the WRs, TEs and receiving RBs will never achieve their full potential.
The most important unit on offense is still "the offensive line".
And our pass blocking was pretty good yesterday.
it was pretty much the best I've seen in the past 4-5 years
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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Yeah, Weeden was pressured some, but most of his INTs and horrible misses were unforced errors on his part. Overall, Weeden's protection was pretty good.
The run blocking was obviously a problem. The Eagles seemed intent on stuffing the run and making Weeden beat them. Lots of run blitzes and stunts that clogged things up pretty good. Our OL is strong, but not quick. The Eagles beat us up front more with their speed than their strength, IMO.
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Brownslifer and Danjo,
You two might want to look at the game again because we got some serious O-line problems and scheme problems.
First, the Oline was getting used yesterday, more so in the second half. On running plays, other than some of the misdirection plays that would make the LBs freeze for a second OR draw plays, we were having huge problems picking up the eagles lbs. There were plays where the guard would help the center but wiff on picking up the lb running through the hole. Schwartz got OWNED by the DE Babineaux, ALL GAME LONG!! By the end of the game, Schwartz did not know his own name.
Second - Scheme.. The Browns were using some STUPID fullback off-set on running plays but would have the fullback fire into the guard/center(2) hole but the RB would run into the tackle/guard(3) hole. This was done so much it was sickening because the FB might pick up that LB( if he was there) but it would leave Richardson 1 on 1 with the LB waiting for him in the hole. Or even worse, the guard on that side would/could not hold the block which would mean the DT and LB was waiting on Richardson.
In our Division, we need the fullback to lead into the hole in-front of Richardson!! Our coaching staff has to see this because Richardson and Weeden will get killed unless this changes. And we all saw what happens if Weeden feels pressure, over thrown ball or INT!!
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Eagles got 2 sacks/4 QB hits. That's not all that bad. More often than not, Weeden had time to throw and just didn't get it done.
I agree with the run blocking, however. As I said, our guys were overmatched by their speed to the gaps and couldn't square them up and move them out to open up some running room for Trent. That has to improve because we're going to see a LOT of that going forward.
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I kept thinking this would have been a different game with vickers in there
Joe Thomas #73
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Ehh... I don't know. I don't think we were getting enough push up front to give the FB much of a shot at knocking a crease in Philly's front 7. Too much trash at the point of attack, I'm afraid.
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Having former OTs trying to play guard won't help
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j/c
How come this o-line can't run block?
Pinkston and Lauvuo......
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
j/c
How come this o-line can't run block?
Pinkston and Lauvuo......
Yup I agree. I thought Lavaou was supposed to be a mauler?
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Quote:
I thought Lavaou was supposed to be a mauler?
Have you ever seen him in the buffet line at the Golden Corral???!!!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
Quote:
j/c
How come this o-line can't run block?
Pinkston and Lauvuo......
Yup I agree. I thought Lavaou was supposed to be a mauler?
He is. Did you see what he did to Weeden in the second half?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Yup I agree. I thought Lavaou was supposed to be a mauler?
Well, he is a mauler. Problem is, you have to have SOME quickness to get your hands on a defender to put him on his back. He was chasing defenders all day so his strength was pretty much nullified.
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If you listened to Django.Lauvoa and Pinkston you would think were All-Pros or something.
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Untill I have time to re-watch the game in slow mo and key on the O-line I will reserve my judgement
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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You know,
There are some thing that are so obvious you wonder if how can a person miss it. And the problem I have is that we did not run well last year, we did not run well in the preseason and guess what, game one, we did not run well!!
The Brown's Management was trying to pump the addition of TRich would change that but anyone who knows football knows it starts with the O-Line! What compounds things for me is that every other team in our Division has the ability to pound out yards. Look at Ciny last night, they were lining up and running on Balt before the game got out of hand!
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Last season we played with the D always playing 8 and 9 guys in the box. No team in the NFL will have a good running game when that happens and the blame did not fall on the O-line or the RB for that last year, but it did fall on the coaching staff.
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GM,
If my QB reads 8 or 9 in the box, then he should be smart enough to audible to a pass because that means your WRs are covered man/man with a single safety! But when you run on fist down 95% of the time in a same off-set I formation.. yea you will see 8 or 9 in the box!! = Coaching staff.
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Quote:
Untill I have time to re-watch the game in slow mo and key on the O-line I will reserve my judgement
Just rewatched all the offensive snaps.
To my untrained eye the problems with the OL were varied. Here are my takeaways.
1. The Eagles didn't really stack the box except for a few plays. But our offense is very unimaginative and you can tell Philly was selling out for the run. The LBs were QUICK to fill holes and there just weren't enough blockers to match up with defenders.
2. Schwartz was AWFUL. Probably can't stress this enough. Couldn't run block, couldn't pass block. The very first offensive play of the game was a run off RT to TRich. For starters, it looked like Schwartz was pass blocking, got knocked back on his feet, then the DE just threw him aside and tackled TRich for no gain. Later, in the third, Lauvao was owning his man in pass block, but had to leave him to help Schwartz. Guy pulled a Wimbley, went all gumby, ducked underneath both and hurried Weeden.
3. Back to the playcalling ... I really didn't understand this one ... maybe someone can explain. First half, Marecic in at FB but lined up to the left of Weeden and TRich. Handoff to TRich to the right, Marecic blocks no one, LB fills hole and stops Richardson on the LOS. A lead blocking full back would have been nice on that play.
4. In the 4th quarter, run play off RT again, Thomas ignores DE who was lined up wide, DE quickly runs down the LOS and tackles TRich for no gain.
5. So I saw a team that, while not necessarily stacking the box, was really selling out for the run after the snap. LBs really quick to fill the hole. It's like they knew the plays. Very little imagination on our side. Philly's D is good and their D is fast. They have good corners and I'm sure they were willing to sell out on the run and make a rookie QB beat them.
I just couldn't really pinpoint one reason here why the running game was so bad. It really seemed to be a multitude of reasons.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
Brownslifer and Danjo,
You two might want to look at the game again because we got some serious O-line problems and scheme problems.
First, the Oline was getting used yesterday, more so in the second half. On running plays, other than some of the misdirection plays that would make the LBs freeze for a second OR draw plays, we were having huge problems picking up the eagles lbs. There were plays where the guard would help the center but wiff on picking up the lb running through the hole. Schwartz got OWNED by the DE Babineaux, ALL GAME LONG!! By the end of the game, Schwartz did not know his own name.
Second - Scheme.. The Browns were using some STUPID fullback off-set on running plays but would have the fullback fire into the guard/center(2) hole but the RB would run into the tackle/guard(3) hole. This was done so much it was sickening because the FB might pick up that LB( if he was there) but it would leave Richardson 1 on 1 with the LB waiting for him in the hole. Or even worse, the guard on that side would/could not hold the block which would mean the DT and LB was waiting on Richardson.
In our Division, we need the fullback to lead into the hole in-front of Richardson!! Our coaching staff has to see this because Richardson and Weeden will get killed unless this changes. And we all saw what happens if Weeden feels pressure, over thrown ball or INT!!
I hadn't read this before I posted mine but it looks like we saw the same things.
The other thing I'll add is that Weeden did not check out of a run when they had 8 or 9 in the box ... which if I recall correctly was only a few times this game but still.
But you're right about the full back "off set". What a ridiculous play.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Rishuz, If you and I saw that using some basic DVR recorder, the actual coaches tape must really be scary!!! And this is the thing that I do not get about Browns Management or press. You cannot say a running back is going to vastly improve your running game unless your O-line has improved. So the Browns will put statements out there that do not make sense and then get mad when someone brings it too their attention!! And you are right, the eagles did not stack the box that much on the Browns, they did not have too!
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Quote:
Second - Scheme.. The Browns were using some STUPID fullback off-set on running plays but would have the fullback fire into the guard/center(2) hole but the RB would run into the tackle/guard(3) hole. This was done so much it was sickening because the FB might pick up that LB( if he was there) but it would leave Richardson 1 on 1 with the LB waiting for him in the hole. Or even worse, the guard on that side would/could not hold the block which would mean the DT and LB was waiting on Richardson.
Great observation.
In my opinion any play with Marecic on the field is stupid.
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
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Seems to me like the last time we had a decent run game was with Mangini/Daboll running the show. During that time I seem to remember a lot of pulling by out interior linemen, particularly Mack. I don't remember seeing any pulling guard or center vs the Eagles and actually don't remember seeing any of it last year.
Any thoughts from the o-line gurus on this?
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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2nd String
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 269 |
It's funny. I woke up this morning and came onto this board thinking the same thing. With our investment in the O-line, our run game should be a lot more effective than it currently is... despite the QB play.
But Toad is right, investment != performance. And that's on both the coaching staff and the players. A lot of people hated Mangini, but at least we had a tough-as-hell run game and managed to win games (4 in a row at one point) with basically NO QB help whatsoever.
Right now, we're pretty inept and that's without teams stacking the box (as mentioned above). Our return on investment is horrible. I was expecting our passing game to continue to struggle... but I wasn't expecting it so much form the run game. Big disappointment.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979 Likes: 83
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979 Likes: 83 |
I don't think Marecic is a lost cause yet, sure he's a letdown compared to us being in love with the play of Lawrence Vickers, but Marecic is going to be better than last year.
Alot, alot of the O-line blocking play is going to hinge on the tight ends and the fullback too, and what the coaches do to isolate and create space and matchups with how they design plays.
Just look at that 23 yd ,? , big gain play on the reverse, with Lavao in position to pancake block on the back side. One positive is our young guys can expect to work together over time and the more time together, the better they'll get.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
and Shurmur played OL in college too.
Here's my thought of the Shurmur style of coaching. He likes to win individual battles all over the place. If he had better talent at every position he would be an amazing coach.
It seems as though he looks for individual wins.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 989
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 989 |
I think its important to identify individual mismatches and exploit them repeatedly during the game.
Momma said go to the well til the well goes dry.
Not sure how many situations we will have a mismatch. But we do have some talent and some incomplete weapons. That would probably be speed match-ups with Benjamin and size w Little/Gordon.
Winning individual battles is how you win... imo. Then the group as a whole needs avoid stupid mistakes and turnovers
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum How come this o-line can't run
block?
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