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Holmgren is a lame duck, for all intents and purposes he's gone. Yay. That's a start. Next, fire Shurmur. Don't wait, do it now. (Or as soon as is administratively possible, say the day after Haslam takes over.) Keep Dick Jauron and his defensive scheme in tact, promote him to interim head coach and retain Childress as the OC and make him the play caller. Keep Tom Heckert as GM. Sit Weeden, start McCoy. McCoy doesn't have to light it up, he just has to not lose the games. Let Weeden learn on the sidelines. If McCoy is not getting it done by the bye, put Weeden back in. If McCoy gets hurt, he'll get his shot. This is not an endorsement of McCoy, or intended to start a debate about his arm strength or accuracy. Weeden may have a stronger arm. He may be more accurate. He may be more mature and have a shorter memory (though this is debatable,) but one thing he is not, and that is READY. He's not ready, he hasn't been ready, and he won't be ready by next week. It was a mistake to simply hand him the job, but because of the major hole Shurmer & Homgren dug, they are stuck with the decision. Without them, there's no pile of crap we have to eat, we can reset and put things back in line. These suggestions may not be the ultimate solutions, but they would be a start. Gentlemen, start your whinegins. 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Quote:
Holmgren is a lame duck, for all intents and purposes he's gone. Yay. That's a start.
Next, fire Shurmur. Don't wait, do it now. (Or as soon as is administratively possible, say the day after Haslam takes over.)
Keep Dick Jauron and his defensive scheme in tact, promote him to interim head coach and retain Childress as the OC and make him the play caller.
Keep Tom Heckert as GM.
Sit Weeden, start McCoy. McCoy doesn't have to light it up, he just has to not lose the games. Let Weeden learn on the sidelines. If McCoy is not getting it done by the bye, put Weeden back in. If McCoy gets hurt, he'll get his shot.
This is not an endorsement of McCoy, or intended to start a debate about his arm strength or accuracy. Weeden may have a stronger arm. He may be more accurate. He may be more mature and have a shorter memory (though this is debatable,) but one thing he is not, and that is READY. He's not ready, he hasn't been ready, and he won't be ready by next week. It was a mistake to simply hand him the job, but because of the major hole Shurmer & Homgren dug, they are stuck with the decision. Without them, there's no pile of crap we have to eat, we can reset and put things back in line.
These suggestions may not be the ultimate solutions, but they would be a start.
Gentlemen, start your whinegins.
You cant do any of that for at least 3 weeks perhaps 4 so you can take the sit weeden stuff right out of the equation because your going to see him for 3 more weeks and I think your mind will be changed.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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That's pretty funny, didn't you just reply in the "Hypothetical" thread that McCoy was gonna come in and "light it up"?
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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no damen(SP?) said that and asked why no reply. Which I said if he did the question of drafting a QB 1st would be moot.
Go back to that thead and look up a bit farther and you'll see what they were replying to as well.
Anyway dont want to take this off subject just answering your question about my reply in another thead.
EDIT-I moved the post down by quoting it so you can see what I was talking about and replying to.
Last edited by NickBrownsFan; 09/10/12 06:21 PM.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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I dont undertsand all the anti Holmgren stuff. The new owners seem to worship the ground he walks on. Because of this I think they make him a coach offer at some point.
Joe Thomas #73
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All this after one game, I cant believe we dont have a draft thread yet....
Common guys were young, mistakes are gonna happen first game over now we need to settle down and play some football.
lets talk about this if were sitting at 0-8 or 2-6
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We fix our mistakes and carry on.
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First thing ; Stop the bleeding 
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Evaluate at end of year!!!!!
Changing out Holmgren mid year is minimal/zero impact on the field.
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Quote:
All this after one game, I cant believe we dont have a draft thread yet....
That's one of the best observations I have seen here all day
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Quote:
Quote:
All this after one game, I cant believe we dont have a draft thread yet....
That's one of the best observations I have seen here all day
I can't believe those are your best contributions to this thread.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Legend
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Firing and/or benching anyone at this point is foolhardy as well as completely pointless, and it won't change a single thing.
I'm as hard on this team as anyone (perhaps more than most), but there is no way we should be firing anyone. There is no way that we should be benching anyone.
While I thought that our O was abysmal, if the QB cures his cranial rectalisys, it can make a massive turn-around in really short order.
While I also rag on our D despite the tons of positives that they showed, the negatives that I complain about are correctable.
IF the QB could keep his passes within say... 3 feet... of a receiver's head, this offense looks a LOT better.
IF Greg Little loses the gator-arms and starts catching passes, this offense looks a LOT better.
IF the offense as a whole stops using an entire hand to count the number of turnovers we commit, the offense looks a LOT better.
Once the QB and his WR's start hooking up more, Richardson will have more room to run and will get to join the party.
It isn't going to be a super-magical transformation where we then run roughshod over all of our competition like the Greatest Show on Turf, but we should at least look like we have a modicum of competency.
Until the O figures out how to give itself a tune-up, though, we'll be relying on this defense to keep us in games. Hopefully I'm dead wrong about how suspect we still are against the run, and we continue to see the exciting play we saw yesterday. If we do, then we will at least be in a lot of games this year with a chance.
We need a lot of players to do a lot of growing up, really quickly.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Hope the Broncos cut Manning and he signs with the Browns
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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Quote:
Firing and/or benching anyone at this point is foolhardy as well as completely pointless, and it won't change a single thing.
I'm as hard on this team as anyone (perhaps more than most), but there is no way we should be firing anyone. There is no way that we should be benching anyone.
While I thought that our O was abysmal, if the QB cures his cranial rectalisys, it can make a massive turn-around in really short order.
While I also rag on our D despite the tons of positives that they showed, the negatives that I complain about are correctable.
IF the QB could keep his passes within say... 3 feet... of a receiver's head, this offense looks a LOT better.
IF Greg Little loses the gator-arms and starts catching passes, this offense looks a LOT better.
IF the offense as a whole stops using an entire hand to count the number of turnovers we commit, the offense looks a LOT better.
Once the QB and his WR's start hooking up more, Richardson will have more room to run and will get to join the party.
It isn't going to be a super-magical transformation where we then run roughshod over all of our competition like the Greatest Show on Turf, but we should at least look like we have a modicum of competency.
Until the O figures out how to give itself a tune-up, though, we'll be relying on this defense to keep us in games. Hopefully I'm dead wrong about how suspect we still are against the run, and we continue to see the exciting play we saw yesterday. If we do, then we will at least be in a lot of games this year with a chance.
We need a lot of players to do a lot of growing up, really quickly.
Well said PPE ... we need to fix our mistakes with who we have to work with right now.
I know that's a novel concept today. *sigh*
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif)
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Cancel our games against Baltimore, for starters.
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We can't right it this year. We have to bare it and see what happens. What was done is done. Now the top brass have to live with their decisions.
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What was done is done. Now the top brass have to live with their decisions.
Yes.
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We gotta keep plugging away. Holmgren might end up hitting the road because Jimmy wants his guy at the top. That's not exactly news. However, it is way, WAY too early to be making wholesale changes to the football side of things.
I really don't get all the Shurmur hate around here. There were a LOT of plays to be made out there Sunday and our guys simply didn't execute. I thought, for the most part, he called a pretty good game. Let's see how things go as the season progresses before we toss yet another coach under the bus.
Same with Weeden. Yeah, he played awful Sunday. Let's see if he can bounce back and play better next week. One game isn't nearly enough.
When you're starting as many rooks and second-year players as we are, you have to know we're going to be a work in progress (particularly on offense). Everyone is free to set expectations wherever they want, but reality has a way of humbling those with unreasonable ones.
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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I have to totally agree with Purp and Lifer, people need to calm down.
I mean I really kind of expected Philly to kill us. I had a 40 to 3 type of feeling going into that game.
THEN we play a game where the Browns somehow almost win? I mean what!!! I'm not happy with the way our team played as far as turnovers, and penalties.......but I mean we almost beat Philly.
I think we will be ok, much as Purp said. A couple things could really change things. Our defense might just be fantastic (And as a browns fans I LOVE THAT!!) (Ok run defense has to improve w/o a doubt). Still our D is legit. We will only need an "average" offense to do ok ala San Fran.
So given that, clean it up. Stop turnovers, and dumb penalties. We win.
Last edited by AkBrownsfan; 09/10/12 11:10 PM.
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Quote:
I have to totally agree with Purp and Lifer, people need to calm down.
I mean I really kind of expected Philly to kill us. I had a 40 to 3 type of feeling going into that game.
THEN we play a game where the Browns somehow almost win? I mean what!!! I'm not happy with the way our team played as far as turnovers, and penalties.......but I mean we almost beat Philly.
I think we will be ok, much as Purp said. A couple things could really change things. Our defense might just be fantastic (And as a browns fans I LOVE THAT!!) (Ok run defense has to improve w/o a doubt). Still our D is legit. We will only need an "average" offense to do ok ala San Fran.
So given that, clean it up. Stop turnovers, and dumb penalties. We win.
Ive been trying to say that all afternoon just not as well. Thank you! 
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Holmgren means nothing to this season. His job is done in the offseason, and thats about it.
Ways to improve what we have...
Defense should do exactly what it did all year. One thing we need to worry about, especially when we see teams like Oakland, Baltimore (especially Baltimore) and the like later with good quick backs that can cut back, we could have an issue. Our defense doesnt defend the cutback very well. We do a good job plugging up initial rushing lanes, but we dont handle the cutback...so we have to be able to recover and shed blocks better, or have back end protection better. The rest looked AMAZING, keep that up.
The offense is where we need the most changes...
First...we need to commit to the run more consistently. When we ran the ball, it seemed very obvious, and we merely used it to keep the defense honest. We also didnt mix up the kinds of runs we used. So we need to vary up the runs, mix it up so that its not just stack up the center of the line and we go nowhere. We have good bookends and we should use them, in addition, we have a TE who blocks well in Alex Smith and another that blocks well in Watson...use them and get our runs farther outside. Then come back inside, or switch it.
Also...use the run to set up the pass. We didnt spend much time drawing in the defense with the run game...We used the pass to set up the run...Terrible idea. You do that when you have a manning or a brady or a guy who has done it for years. Jax and Min are gonna use the run to set up the pass, the Giants have used the run to set up the pass, Dallas has done it, the Jets have done it, Pit has done it...Many teams have done it with success in the NFL. Use the run to set up the pass. We have a successful running back that will do well, draw in the D, then let Weeden throw it.
Or...Use the intermediate passing game. Let him work short bubble screens (to Benjamin and Cribbs), let him hit crossing routes to guys like Watson and Little, Let him hit Richardson in the flat (didnt see that at all). Everything in our offense seems so front and center. Theres very little use of things to set up or open up other things. If we had great talent that would be great. But we dont, and because of it, our play calling needs to help that. If Little cant get open, lets use some rub routes to get him a step. If Gordon cant get open, use some go routes that he has shown he can do well...Then work him on the sidelines and let him know that he is going to use those go routes, to set up a comeback, and work with him all game to make it happen...Use things to set up other things.
Easy passes. there are plenty of routes and play calls in an NFL playbook to get a QB into rhythm...use them, and if Weeders gets out of sync...come back to them to get his rhythm back. Did we throw a ball to a TE yesterday? IDK...
Study the film...this will help, go to the film and see what sucked and dont use it. Coach the kid up. Weeders is going to need to learn from his mistakes. The coaching staff says his film study sets him apart, he learns from him mistakes and spends a lot of time in the film room to eliminate those mistakes...good. Keep that trend up and improve next week.
To make things better for next week...One thing that we need to tell everyone on the offense...mainly Weeders, is that theres nothing you can do this coming Sunday that will make us 1-0. Only 1-1. Learn from Sunday and forget it. We move on to next week and do what we can to get the next win. You cant get the last one, get the next one.
I dont want to see Weeden coming out and trying to do EVERYTHING to make up for last week. Do everything to win this week.
Side note, what I would like to see is Weeders to Gordon DEEP on the first play next week. Show them we arent scared and arent afraid that what happened last week will happen again
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Quote:
Side note, what I would like to see is Weeders to Gordon DEEP on the first play next week. Show them we arent scared and arent afraid that what happened last week will happen again
Coincidently that’s just what Flacco and the RaTs did to them tonight … That and make Art out to be the hero of Baltimore.
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Good topic but wow your post is total nonsense to be kind about it. You fire a coach when he has lost a team. You sure as hell do not fire him after a last minute 1 pt loss on opening day.
Now as for the topic. You have to preach fundamentals to Weeden and build his confidence back up. His release was just all over the place. If it is something physical then bench him but that ball was floating out of his hands. Maybe if Weeden had played for the half in preseason game 4, he would be farther ahead in his development.
Anyway Another week like this and I think you have to bench Weeden. I am not a big fan of benching a rookie QB early but if he isn't getting it done you have to do what is best for this team. They are playing to hard to let that kind of effort go down the drain.
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Stop force feeding a system to players. Start playing to players strengths.
We drafted a RB 3rd overall in the draft, we have one burner at WR, another a 6'3" monster on the other side and a multitude of TE's.
Why are we running a pass oriented offense that relies on WR'ers making plays and making it so complicated? Back to basics football is what we need, not overly complicated gobbly goo we have right now.
you had a good run Hank.
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1. More creative plays in the red zone and inside the 10 yd line. Not all passes to the tight ends.
2. Touchdowns in the first quarter.
3. Recognize who are the only experienced offensive players, (skilled position players), on the team.
Watson, Cribbs, Massaquoi, ... and Little, maybe,
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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"How do you right the ship.."
Sorry, Cal, but you can't fix a team once the season has started.
The only thing you can do at this point is evaluate players and coaches so that when you get to the 2013 draft and free agency you have a much greater and clearer picture of what you've really got.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Sorry Toad but that is soggy Bullcrap. There have been many teams that struggled early and finished strong. Denver last year is a very good example.
Last edited by Mourgrym; 09/11/12 12:23 AM.
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Folks we almost beat the Eagles. A very good team. Yah, they played badly, but maybe...just maybe the Browns had something to do with that. I'm with Mourg and lifer and many others. We might not be that bad........we might even surprise some people down the stretch! All I wanted to see this year was continued improvement really. I saw that in some places, and am hopeful over the course of a season that I'll see more. I mean what if had Phil playing on sunday? And TR not just practicing for a day or two? I'm still thinking we'll win this coming weekend....ok, I'm still hopefull we will....
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Provide over the top help on Green and make someone else beat you and I think we will beat the Bengals. They literally have zero playmakers outside of Green. I guess we have zero playmakers outside of no one tho so I don't know.  I do think we are going to win tho.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
Stop force feeding a system to players. Start playing to players strengths.
We drafted a RB 3rd overall in the draft, we have one burner at WR, another a 6'3" monster on the other side and a multitude of TE's.
Why are we running a pass oriented offense that relies on WR'ers making plays and making it so complicated? Back to basics football is what we need, not overly complicated gobbly goo we have right now.
With our young guys we still don't know how to best use them and they still don't get what the defenses are doing to them.
There is a way to learn.
How most of us learn ... threw our mistakes, trial and error.
Mike Homlgren took charge of an absulute abortion of a team.
That much is a fact.
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Sorry Toad but that is soggy Bullcrap. There have been many teams that struggled early and finished strong. Denver last year is a very good example.
They always had a solid offensive line. We haven't had a solid line since that 2007 unit. Besides, they had teams guessing because of what they did with Tebow. It was something no team had ever seen before. They kinda sucked until the 4th when Tebow would scramble around and make a play to somehow win.
We don't have the talent of that Donks team, not even close.
We won't play well until our lines play well. We can't run block and we can't stop the run. So until that's fixed, we can't "right the ship." Now how do you fix those two things mid-season...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Its possible to improve things as the season goes on.
As for run blocking, maybe we do it with numbers. Add 2 TEs and use our FB better. Or we mix up the styles of run that we use. Its about playing to the strengths or adding numbers.
I think we struggled with the run because it was a wide nine scheme. Again it is something we looked HORRIBLE against during the preseason. No one else runs it, and while teams may copy it, they wont be nearly as successful.
When we faced a Tampa 2 we did fine getting push, when we faced a 3-4 we got great push. We'll see what happens against a standard 4-3 the next two weeks. Baltimore showed there is a way to hang a ton of points on Cincys D, and we can do those things too...
They say a team makes the most progress from week 1 to week 2...Hopefully that is the case with us. Our QB will make strides, our OL will look better, and hopefully our WRs do a better job...
We wont see another wide nine all year, we dont do it well...we'll do better against non wide nines.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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I used Denver as the latest example but they are far from the only one. You were wrong, you know it, I know and I am pretty sure everyone else does. Every freaking year there are a few teams that struggle early and come on late.
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Quote:
I used Denver as the latest example but they are far from the only one. You were wrong, you know it, I know and I am pretty sure everyone else does. Every freaking year there are a few teams that struggle early and come on late.
You're saying there are teams that lose games by one point, and somehow go on to be successful later?
No way!
Last edited by OSGuy; 09/11/12 01:03 AM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Quote:
I used Denver as the latest example but they are far from the only one. You were wrong, you know it, I know and I am pretty sure everyone else does. Every freaking year there are a few teams that struggle early and come on late.
You're saying there are teams that lose games by one point, and somehow go on to be successful later?
No way!
It's. Not. Possible!
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I used Denver as the latest example but they are far from the only one. You were wrong, you know it, I know and I am pretty sure everyone else does. Every freaking year there are a few teams that struggle early and come on late.
The difference is that the vast majority of those teams which struggle do so because they aren't playing to their level of talent and/or experience. This Browns team was ranked as lowly as it was because we don't carry the same level of talent as the rest of the league. To expect this group to suddenly have the collective light come on during the season feels a lot like the same kind of wishful thinking that creates unrealistically optimistic expectations before the season starts.
Players gain experience in their first year or two, but they don't make great strides in collective performance as a general rule. There are great strides made after the season is over and before the next regular season starts.
Afterall, that ridiculous optimism has to come from somewhere 
Besides, why should we expect the ship to be righted? This was always going to be a busted year anyway while we waited for the kids to gain experience, right?  So what's the sin in stating there isn't a way to right it? Or is that suddenly as unacceptable as the first loss?
Sounds like good old fashioned denial to me...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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Legend
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I am going to give one reason why I feel that Weeden will improve in real game situations. He has done well against our own defense in training camp, in full pad situations. Our defense just gave Vick massive headaches on Sunday. While he's not a superman at QB throwing the ball, he has improved as a passer. He has completed over 60% of his passes over the past 2 years, and has averaged almost 8 yards/pass attempt. The Browns held him to 52% and yards/attempt Sunday. This is the defense that Weeden goes up against in practice every day, and I think that there is really good talent in the defensive backfield. He has shown the ability to throw against this quality defense. The difference is that our own defense never game-planned to stop him. Of course I don't really think that the Eagles did either. For this reason, I have every hope that his accuracy will improve as he goes along. If a highly experienced player has shown accuracy and touch in practices, then he should be able to replicate that in games, at least to some extent. I didn't see much at all out of Weeden as far as accuracy or touch. I think that he will improve, because these have been strengths of his. I haven't looked at the game again yet for myself, but Dennis Manoloff of the Plain Dealer broke his game down play by play. The only thing that I might disagree with him on is the 2nd INT on a pass intended for Benjamin. I don't think that it was a good pass, however, both Benjamin and Little were both in the same area, with Little actually immediately making the tackle after the INT. We all know that someone blew a route there, because that's not a rational plan of attack. One interesting thing is the "seconds until release" column. I haven't verified these for myself, but it appears that Weeden got the ball out of his hands extremely quickly. Maybe he did so too quickly. If I counted correctly, he only held the ball for 3 or more seconds 5 times. On many of his throws, the ball was out in less than 2 seconds from the snap. Maybe he needs to take an extra half second to compose himself before he throws. I bet that getting rid of the ball quickly was a point of emphasis leading up to this game, given the pressure the Eagles brought in the pre-season. I also think that this was one of those games that just snowballed. I had hopes that Weeden would be able to pull himself out of his funk, but he just never was able to do so. http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...t_flyout_sportsAnyway, I will give Weeden more than one game, especially with so many rookies around him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Hall of Famer
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While it's obvious where I've always stood on Weeden, it would be idiotic and inconsistent of me to say I expected this huge game out of him. Afterall, though I've used the term "flag-football league" to describe his offense at OK State (No, I wasn't the first as another poster here did, but I loved it so I borrowed it!) it would be seriously unfair to suggest he should pick up an NFL offense against NFL defenses in one rookie camp.
So what's my point?
Oh Hell yeah he's got to get better.
Now the real question is whether or not all the fatal flaws I believed I'd seen can be overcome.
I saw things in RG3 that I never saw hints of in Weeden, even though they played the same teams in the same flag-football conference.
So while it hurts to use the same question on Weeden that I did on McCoy, it's applicable:
Can he overcome enough flaws to turn himself into a viable starter?
Weeden has a long way to go, but because of his age, he doesn't have very long to get there...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,902 |
Quote:
The difference is that the vast majority of those teams which struggle do so because they aren't playing to their level of talent and/or experience. This Browns team was ranked as lowly as it was because we don't carry the same level of talent as the rest of the league. To expect this group to suddenly have the collective light come on during the season feels a lot like the same kind of wishful thinking that creates unrealistically optimistic expectations before the season starts.
[satire]Yes, we couldn't have been ranked so low because we have so many rookies starting. That had zero to do with it. It's purely based on a talentless team.[/satire]
With all of that youth and so little time to gel between our QB and such a young group of WR's, we will get better as the season progresses. How much better remains to be seen.
But surely, even you in your smugness must know that. With this much youth, they will surely mature on the field of play. If you would like, I can make you a HUGE list of rookie players that have gotten much better as their first season went on.
But Toad, at this point it's you who are not dealing in reality. You are digging yourself a hole here that even you may not be able to double talk and climb out of.
But I'll enjoy watching you scratch, BS and crawl trying to get out of it late in the season.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Dang Toad, you seem so negative...... Is this really Versatile Dawg in Toad clothing? hmmmm  
"Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein" ~Joe Theismann~
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum How do we right the ship? Not
next year, right now.
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