DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Voter Fraud By Congressional Candidate

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Convenience has nothing to do with it, its specifically researching and then writing a law based on that research that intentionally makes voting difficult and sometimes impossibly so for certain segments of the population. Texas had an acceptable and quite easy way to make their law legal, and they chose not to take it and appeal instead. I do not know for certain if it was because they intended to suppress certain votes with those certain specific provisions in the law they wrote, but a lot of evidence points to that being the case. Evidence that has already been pointed out and sources given.

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Sorry, I thought when you included "marshes in the south" that we had moved beyond the Texas argument. I have not agreed with Texas, in fact I'm not all that familiar with it and Texas may be dead wrong in the way they wrote and applied their law... I don't know. Maybe voter discrimination was the ultimate goal... again, I don't know. If it was, then they need to fix it.

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You want an example of someone who is not a cattle rancher who this discriminates against? How about someone who is poor because they are disabled? They can't drive, don't need a driver's license. They have a SS card, and a birth certificate, but no photo ID. Now, they could go get one, but they are disabled, so that may either be substantially difficult or impossible for them to do. Maybe a lot of disabled people have someone in their lives who is willing to go out of their way to help them do this, but maybe some of them don't.

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But what if that person is a brown eyed, blonde guy with leprosy and in-grown toenails and his daddy named him Sue? You can come up with all of the hard-luck cases you want and maybe there is a way to cover them in a law.. but in general, we should be working toward everybody producing a photo-ID to vote.

What if someone has multiple personalities?

Its a shame you don't take this seriously.

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Criiminals wouldn't want to go get an ID if they have wants and warrents out on them...

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I'm glad you see my point. Do you think they should be able to vote?

well, why they are awaiting trial or in the process, I do believe they can vote.

however, is it such a bad thing that we could potentially bring in more people with warrants out for their arrest through this method? i'm of the opinion that the less outstanding warrants, the better.

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court on Tuesday said a new state law must be voided if would-be voters are denied easy access to photo ID cards needed to cast ballots. Sending the case back down to a trial judge, the justices said the law could stay in force only if the lower court finds there is no voter disenfranchisement. The Pennsylvania statute was one in a wave of voter ID laws intentionally designed to keep voters away from polls. Sen. Bernie Sanders has asked the Government Accountability Office to investigate what he called an "alarming number" of new state laws that would make it "significantly harder" for millions of eligible voters to cast ballots this November.

The GAO plans to release a report later this month detailing current voter registration requirements and voting laws in all 50 states and how these laws have changed over the past decade. A second GAO report will be issued next year analyzing the impact that these changes have had on voters' ability to exercise their voting rights.

Since the 2010 elections, more than a dozen states with Republican governors and Republican majorities in their legislatures, have passed laws requiring voters to show photo identification at polls, cutting back early voting periods, imposing new restrictions on voter registration drives or redrawing electoral maps.

The Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law found that obtaining proper voter ID in the affected states was difficult. More than 10 million eligible voters live more than 10 miles from the nearest office where they could get an ID. Many of the offices maintain limited hours and, despite pledges to make voter ID free, birth and marriage certificates, often needed for the process, cost $8 to $25.

Federal and state courts in recent weeks have begun to strike down some of the new state laws.

A federal court agreed with the Justice Department that Texas' voter ID law was discriminatory.

In Ohio, early voting was restored and rules restricting voter registration drives have been struck down.

The Justice Department blocked a new South Carolina voter ID law because it would suppress minority voter turnout. The state has appealed to a federal court in Washington.

In Florida, a federal court ruled that a new state law that reduced the number of early voting days to eight from 12 could not be enforced in Florida counties covered under the federal Voting Rights Act of 1965.

In Wisconsin, a voter identification requirement was struck down but that ruling was expected to be appealed.

The Indiana Supreme Court upheld that state's voter identification law in 2008. While that court found no evidence of the fraud the law was intended to combat, it also found no evidence that the new requirements were a burden on voters.

link'

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I have 3 or 4 posts of varying lengths explaining my position, which isn't going to change on page 3 or 4 or 7 or 8...

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What about page 9? Huh,, come on.. Tell us what you will say on Page 9 or else how can we take you seriously

Look, it's pretty simple. If you need to have an id to buy beer, rent an apartment, get gov't. assistance, go to a doctor, cash a check, withdraw money from a bank, or show i.d. to police or risk going to jail, what, in God's name, is so hard about showing i.d. to vote.

I don't care if you're rich or poor or somewhere in between. I don't buy into the fact that some people are so put out as to not be able to get an i.d.

What is so hard about getting an i.d.?

This stuff is very informative. Thanks so All's I need is a fake ID with an address on it and I can register to vote or even better yet I dont exist so use a fake name and sign the form that says I do and Boom I can vote all over the place in Ohio. I just need a vacant house address to list.Dont even have to be registered and dont need an ID. Im homeless.

They cant take me to court because I dont exist. So who cares if I sign a form saying Im someone else with a fake address. Try to find me when your not even looking for me.
Good thing most people dont vote or you would have even bigger problems.

I dont know if this is a hack web site so to speak but did find this read interesting as far as the there is no voter fraud is discussed.

Dead men can vote

But the thing is, even when the ID cards are "free" they aren't free. The proof needed to get IDs (birth certificates, marriage certificates, etc.) costs money. Add to that, if you don't have a car, you have to pay to get to the location where you can actually get your ID. On top of that, most of these places have very restrictive hours so you will have to take a day off work in order to get the ID. All of a sudden free isn't so free. If you get there on a particularly busy day, you may have to come back another day. Asking a demographic which has very limited finances and means of getting IDs to go through all this is systematically unfair and the 21st century version of a poll tax.

I agree with everyone that people getting an ID is a good thing and that more people need to have IDs.

What I disagree with is
a) voter fraud is widespread/epidemic/on any major scale

b) Voter ID laws (as proposed) reduce voter fraud - As I pointed out, in court hearings regarding THIS issue THIS year, the Pennsylvania GOP plaintiffs stated that the Pennsylvania ID law would not hinder voter fraud

c) Implementing Voter ID laws has to happen in this election. We gave people 2 years to get ready to switch from antennas to digital TV, and yet we expect a few months for millions of people to get proper IDs and whatnot all over an issue which has been shown to be largely non-existent.

My proposal is setting a date in the future and benchmarks along the way to get people actual, free IDs because I do think they're important for people to have. This could be done by community outreach, volunteering and a large-scale information campaign that allows people to conveniently get IDs.

AND THEN implementing laws requiring voter ID laws (even though I still maintain that for the purposes of voting, IDs are unnecessary since there are other standards of proof). Trying to force voter ID laws just a few months before an election is political posturing and AS IT STANDS TODAY unfairly targets minorities, the poor, the elderly, and the young.

Dude - you don't get it. If they don't have an i.d., they aren't working, so take the "have to take a day off work" thing and shove it. It's stupid.

Plus, many of these people live in urban areas - the un i.d.ed - throw a buck down and get on the bus. If they don't have a photo i.d., they aren't working - they can spare 3 or 4 hours of time.

Out in the rural areas? Ever been to a rural area? Ever been to the second poorest county of West Virginia - which might be the poorest state in the country? Those people take care of others......they might not have much, but they eat very well. Need a ride? I guarantee, you'll get a ride.

This whole " can't get an i.d. because of the cost and time involved" is just stupid. It really is just STUPID to argue that, especially when we know you can't get medicare, medicaid, social security, disability, can't get prescriptions, can't see a doctor, can't pay taxes, can't even buy a nasal decongestant......without an i.d.

Please, it gets old.

You are completely, factually wrong. Look at the demographics of those adults with no ID and compare them to the respective unemployment rates. For example, 25% of African-Americans adults don't have ID and the AA unemployment rate is 14%. 20% of Asian adults don't have ID but the Asian unemployment rate is only 6%. You literally have no clue or factual basis about the things you are saying. Come to an ID drive with me sometime and you'll see that the people without IDs not only have jobs, but sometimes :gasp: they even have two. I hate the portrayal that this board has toward those without an ID because it is so far from reality, it's ridiculous. I see these people every single week. You don't. To characterize them all as lazy bums who sit around living off the government teat is a factual lie and I want you to back up your assertions with ACTUAL PROOF.

Just because you want it to be true doesn't make it so. Try showing actual evidence or any semblance of proof for your claims and not just empty rhetoric or otherwise you come off as misinformed at best and ignorant, clueless and hateful at worst.

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But the thing is, even when the ID cards are "free" they aren't free. The proof needed to get IDs (birth certificates, marriage certificates, etc.) costs money.

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So this has been brought up many times and nobody has answered it... so please tell me, if these people have absolutely no recognized way of proving who they are, how do they function in life? How do they rent an apartment? Apply for government assistance? What if they are stopped by the police for some reason?

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Add to that, if you don't have a car, you have to pay to get to the location where you can actually get your ID. On top of that, most of these places have very restrictive hours so you will have to take a day off work in order to get the ID. All of a sudden free isn't so free.

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Ok, but we are talking about one day every 4 years or so... people act like they are being asked to make this sacrifice weekly.

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c) Implementing Voter ID laws has to happen in this election. We gave people 2 years to get ready to switch from antennas to digital TV, and yet we expect a few months for millions of people to get proper IDs and whatnot all over an issue which has been shown to be largely non-existent.

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This is akin to the oil drilling argument. I've been hearing it for 30 years... "Sure, we could drill our own oil or build a new refinery but it would take 10 years before it hit the market. That doesn't alleviate our immediate problem, so what's the point?"... well obviously if we had started 30 years ago, it WOULD be alleviating our problem now. This is the same argument. People have been calling for some kind of voter ID reform for a long time... and now they are going to complain that they don't have time?

What cracks me up is that the Democrats couldn't even wait for anyone to have any chance at all to read the healthcare law before it was voted on and put huge burdens on many employers

........ but expecting a person to go get an ID, which they need to get a legal job, an apartment, Social Security, welfare, food stamps, a bank account, a car, to apply for college, or damn near anything else in today's world is just expecting far too much.

Ridiculous.

And if we didn't pass the stimulus immediately, unemployment might reach the devastating level of 8%... Glad we passed it so quickly to avoid that.

Exactly.

You guys never provide any proof to backup your point/opinion.

It's all ignorance, hatred, racism, intollerance, partisanship, yada yada yada

/purple

Pa.’s new voter ID law sends non-drivers on a bureaucratic journey


By Ann Gerhart, Published: September 16

Philadelphia — Cheryl Ann Moore stepped into the state’s busiest driver’s licensing center, got a ticket with the number C809 on it and a clipboard with a pen attached by rubber band, and began her long wait Thursday to become a properly documented voter.

Six blocks away, inside an ornate and crowded City Hall courtroom, a lawyer was arguing before the Pennsylvania Supreme Court that the state’s controversial new voter ID law would strip citizens of their rights and should be enjoined. Just outside, on Thomas Paine Plaza, the NAACP president was inveighing against a modern-day poll tax at a boisterous rally of a few hundred opponents.


Moore bent over a folding table and carefully filled out the form a Pennsylvania Department of Transportation worker had given her, in the first line she would stand in that day. Her ticket was time-stamped 11:38 a.m. and gave an estimated wait time of 63 minutes, which, said Moore, didn’t seem so bad.

She had been registered to vote since she was 19, and now she was 54.

“I’m on vacation this week,” she said, “so I thought, ‘Let me just get this done now,’ because by the time we get to November, you won’t be able to get in this place.”

She looked around. Nearly all of the 200 plastic chairs in the long room were filled with her fellow citizens — people trying to get licenses to drive mixed in with people trying to get licenses to vote. The bin on the wall that held applications for the “Pa. voting ID” was empty.

When the state’s legislature in March enacted one of the toughest ID laws in the nation, with the support of no Democrats and all but three Republicans, Gov. Tom Corbett (R) said it would “prevent people from cheating in our elections” in a state where Democrats have a registration advantage of 1.1 million people. The Republican majority leader, Mike Turzai, then boasted that the new law “is going to allow Governor Romney to win” the state, which inflamed an already charged debate.

The governor estimated that 99 percent of the state’s 8.3 million voters already had an acceptable PennDOT ID, and other Republicans questioned how any responsible grown-up wouldn’t already have the right card, in a society where photo ID is required to use a credit card or buy alcohol or cash a check.

Cheryl Ann Moore was such a grown-up.

She owns her home, a small rowhouse in South Philadelphia. She’s held the same job for 24 years, as a custodian at Thomas Jefferson University Hospital, where she works the 4-a.m.-to-noon shift. To get there, she takes the bus in the middle of the night. She doesn’t have a driver’s license, like thousands of working people in a city with one of the lowest rates of car ownership in the country.

She doesn’t have a bank account. “I pay cash or do layaway,” said Moore. “No credit cards; they’re dangerous.”

On Thursday, she slept in, until about 7 a.m., then got herself dressed to spend the day in Center City in a pair of pressed gray capris, a pink-and-white T-shirt and a pair of pink patent leather sandals.

She stopped at work to pick up the paycheck she gets every two weeks, then went to cash it at the same place she’s been going for years.
“They know me there,” she said, “I don’t need ID for that.”

But she had heard on the news she needed ID to vote, even though “I never had no problem before,” and her daughter, Sharia, who works in day care, had been pressing her. “She already has that non-driver license, so she told me I better get myself one.” Figuring there would be a crowd at the center, she hadn’t stopped for breakfast, and now it was 12:30 p.m., and she was hungry.

On the electronic board overhead, the number being served was C765, so Moore went to Subway and got lunch. There were no more chairs, so she sat down on a heating vent at the back of the room.

Paper chase

There has been confusion for six months about how many registered voters do not have proper ID and about how exactly they can acquire it.

Opponents of the new law have asked the state Supreme Court, which currently has six members (a seventh justice was suspended this year on corruption charges), split evenly among Democrats and Republicans, to block it. The court is expected to rule this month, and some of the justices’ questions on Thursday showed concern that voters might not be able to get their papers in order before Election Day. The latest poll, conducted by the Philadelphia Inquirer, indicates that some 65 percent of Pennsylvania voters support the law. The same poll shows Obama leading Romney by 11 points in the state.

Meanwhile, the voting-access groups have banded together to try to educate the citizenry

The law initially stipulated that the only acceptable proof of identity at the polls was a driver’s license or what PennDOT calls the “non-driver” card. Both required a raised-seal birth certificate from the state and a Social Security card, as well as two proofs of residency.

The law later was amended to include a narrow set of other photo IDs: a U.S. passport; an ID issued by local, county, state or federal government; a military ID; an ID from an institute of higher learning for students or employees; an ID from a state-recognized care facility, such as a nursing home. All had to have expiration dates.

Then the state had to define what constituted an institute of higher education, and it turned out that of 110 universities, 91 didn’t include expiration dates on their IDs.

“I have a training manual I use, and I have rewritten it eight or nine times,” said Ellen Kaplan, the policy director for the Committee of Seventy, a political watchdog group in Philadelphia.

Finally, on Aug. 27, with 10 weeks to Election Day, the state issued what it termed the “card of last resort.”

To get one of those, a person had to first fill out form DL-54A, to apply for a PennDOT free photo ID for voting, then have a PennDOT staffer certify that the applicant did not have suitable documents to get that first ID, then sign an oath that he or she did not have another acceptable form of ID as stipulated by Pennsylvania Election Code Section 102 (z.5) (2), then fill out the Request for Initial Issuance of Pennsylvania Department of State Initial ID for Voting Purposes.
Perhaps 100,000 registered voters lack the right ID, although no one knows for sure; estimates have ranged from 1 to 11 percent of 8.3 million registered voters. Through Sept. 11, the state had issued 7,548 of the free non-driver IDs for voting, said PennDOT spokeswoman Jan McKnight, and 579 of the cards of last resort, 343 of those in Philadelphia — and one of those facilitated by McKnight herself, to the father of Jim Cramer, after the CNBC host complained via Twitter last Wednesday that his dad couldn’t get ID.

‘None of this makes any sense’


“This is a hot mess!” said Moore. “They want people to get out and vote, and none of this makes any sense!”

Pauline Broyaka, a native of Ukraine, was clutching her 1991 voter registration card. “I have no idea what I’m waiting for,” said Broyaka. She had number C805.

Irwin Smith was back for a second day. He had showed up at 8 a.m. Monday, only to find out voter photos aren’t taken on Mondays. Now he was back, holding his birth certificate and his Social Security card. The fact that he had held onto both, through decades of living on the street before he moved to a housing program four years ago, he saw as a sign he was intended to “be part of society again.” He had number C814.

“This is ridiculous,” said Moore. “We are all in this world together. We are as one. We are equal.”

She looked at her watch. It was 1:10 p.m., she had been there for 90 minutes, and C773 was up. “I think I should go get a money order for $13.50,” the fee for the non-driver ID, she said. “I better have that just in case.” She went around the corner to Liberty Market, fished out $13.50 and another buck for the money order.

“Even if I don’t need it, it pays to talk to people, and be prepared,” she said.

At 1:42 p.m., Moore stepped up to one of the eight manned stations and presented her paperwork. Registered to vote? “Oh, yes,” she said. “You want a voting ID?” asked the clerk. “Then you need to fill out this instead.” Moore took another clipboard, and another two-page form. “I already answered most of this,” she said.

A second clerk phoned the Philadelphia Board of Elections, and after a wait, verified she was, indeed, registered to vote. Ten minutes later, she directed Moore to print and sign her name on a sheet of paper labeled “Examiner’s Report.” She carefully detached her pay stub from the address page and offered her proof of residency. She swore her oath of affirmation.

At 2:10 p.m., she got a new ticket — A230 — for the photo line. At 3:25 p.m., after four hours, her number was called, and she scampered over to the camera, only to have the clerk take number A231 and the man standing behind her.

“Hey!” she said, “I’m right here!”

“I already called your number three times,” he said. “Now what?” she demanded.

“Take a new number,” he said.

“This is bull----!” she said. “At the end of all this?” She bit her lip.

At that, another clerk waved Moore to another camera and told her to smile.

With that, after four hours, Cheryl Ann Moore became the proud owner of a laminated Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Department of State for Voting Purposes Only ID card.

“I feel good!” she said. She grinned, kissed the card, put it inside a compartment in her knockoff Louis Vuitton purse and zippered it shut.

For anybody who doesn't want to read that whole sad story I'll break it down for you.. this woman needed an ID to vote, took a day off and went to the DMV and in about half a day, she got it taken care of with most of the typical complications that go along with trying to get something done at the DMV... then there are 25 paragraphs of stuff trying to make you feel sorry for her. And now that she's got it, she won't have to do that again for a very long time. THE END

Nice Boo Hoo story if she works she has an SS card. If she has voted for 33 years I think shes registered. But does make for a nice story on the hardships the rest of us take to actually get drivers licences and plates and e-check and the all the crap we have to endure to actually make a living as well as those who have to spend that time doing other things like waiting for bus's and even walking to work.

Sometimes in life you do what you have to do, to do the the things you want to do, and voting should be no different. I took my wife to early voting once we waited for 3 hours to vote. It normally only takes me 5 minutes at my normal polling place.
But you know what we did it, didnt complain and that was that.

No as some have said, if they give out free ID's to those that need them to make it fair I have no problems but those saying having an ID is infringing on some right to vote are way off base.

She had to have had a photo ID if she works a job. There's no way around it. The federal I-9 form must be kept up to date, and, in fact, even in my restaurant, they wanted that form updated as an employee's credentials expired. It was retroactive. There are a limited set of documents that establish ID.

http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/i-9.pdf

This is a federally required form for all employees, and not having one on file if they check can result in penalties.

I would guess that this woman's circumstances, such as having held the same job for the past 24 years, are fairly unusual. Also, what does she do if she loses "the place she's cashed her check for years"? If you want to buy a house, a car, and so on .... you need an ID. If you want a new job, you need an ID. If you open a bank account, you need ID. If you apply for welfare, you need an ID. This woman may have unusual circumstances, and I doubt that most people fit into the same circumstances.

If we require a Photo ID to vote, how would we handle all the states with mail in voting and absentee ballots?

easy be on the registation as voter with a copy of your ID.

In Ohio, you have to either write in your ID number on the application, or the last 4 digits of your Social Security Number.

I just had to renew my license last week (and here in Florida they are good for 7 years)

I used my telephone, to call a phone number in the phonebook (I was surprised we had one, but they drop 7 or 8 of them at my house every year, so the wife usually keeps 1).

A machine answered and I selected a few options, til I got to "Set an Appointment" and I set up an appointment to get my license. I arrived at my slected destination 15 before my apointed time, and signed in. I sat down among the 40-50 people all waiting, and no longer than I reached to get my phone out to check my email while waiting, they called my number.

I walked to the window they called me to, handed over my arm loads worth of ID proof (yes, the amount of stuff needed I feel is ridiculous, more on that at the end, but it's for the REAL ID federal standards thing..) She had me do a quick sight test, read over the options page, and asked the typical "do you suffer seziers, haart conditions, are you handicapped/prothestics, etc"

Then stand up, she snaps my photo, we wait about 90 seconds for the DL to drop out of the printer and off I go, I was there a total of 15 minutes and that included having to reprint my license because the first one had the picture skewed.

I walked out while some 40 people sat there being called 1 by 1, who my guess didn't make apointments and were "walk-ins".

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When the state’s legislature in March enacted one of the toughest ID laws in the nation, with the support of no Democrats and all but three Republicans, Gov. Tom Corbett (R) said it would “prevent people from cheating in our elections” in a state where Democrats have a registration advantage of 1.1 million people. The Republican majority leader, Mike Turzai, then boasted that the new law “is going to allow Governor Romney to win” the state, which inflamed an already charged debate.

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Is there anyone that wants to tell me that this Governor and the Republican majority leder aren't doing this in an effort to rig the election in Romneys favor?

It shouldn't be made any harder to get a voter ID than it is to get a drivers license. and it probably really isn't in PA, but time is important, by enacting the law when they did, they shortened the timeline to allow people time to get them thus condensing and congesting the process.

Smart move if you ask me. Not fair, but smart as hell.

j/k

I thought Ohio required a photo id. I was wrong.

http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/voter-id.aspx#State_Reqs