DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Let's Talk about the Refs..

I also think that when Vick ran the ball and fumbled, that the refs could have rewarded the ball to Cleveland after the Ball was ripped away from him. Vick layed on a defender and he never had the ball chested when a defender came in a ripped it away. During pile ups, this happens alot. As soon as Vick grabbed the ball, it was taken away. In the middle of the field, the ball gets ripped away alot, even as a player is down after a fumble.

I think we all have to remember that the referees that we are seeing are not 2nd tier, 3rd tier or even 4th tier refs.

Because of the union ties of the NFL-refs, we are seeing guys who are not truly prepared for the level of intensity at the NFL level. Also, many of them are™reffing games at the MS, HS, college, and, now, professional level with each level having a different set of rules that they must follow.

We de¾and consistency and a good game, but it is nearly impossible given the circumstances that these referees have been put under.

I salute their efforts and blame the NFL, NFLRA, and NFLPA (if they wanted to show solidarity, they should have included them in last summer's negotiations instead of pretending to care about them now).

It's a multi-billion dollar pie, there should be a way to split it up where everyone gets a nice piece of it.

Yeah I don't place the blame on the replacement refs. They are clearly unprepared for the task at hand.

They simply aren't the best.. But I think they try hard, it's just that they got thrown into this and to be honest, that's a pretty tough job.

I actually think that given the circumstances, they aren't really all that bad..

PHILADELPHIA (CBS) – There were no real disasters with replacement officials during the first week of the NFL season, and that was seen as something of a success for the league. The second week … not so much.

The Eagles vs. Ravens game highlighted a less than stellar week for the replacements, full of blown calls and extended delays.

To make matters worse, it seems like the players don’t respect the replacement referees.

“During the game, they made like a bad call or something, the ref, and I see Ray Lewis like pump his chest up, trying to scare him,” LeSean McCoy told 94WIP’s Anthony Gargano and Ike Reese on the 94WIP Player’s Lounge on Monday. “Don’t you know [the ref] started stuttering? I’m like ‘what’s this?!’”

The NFL removed one referee this weekend when it was discovered that the replacement official was a New Orleans Saints fan, and had pictures of himself in Saints gear on his Facebook page.

“They’re like fans, kind of though,” McCoy said. “I’ll be honest, they’re like fans. One of the refs was talking about his fantasy team, like ‘McCoy, come on, I need you for my fantasy,’ ahhh, what?!”

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If only you were as patient with our own players.

I don't disagree with you often, but I will here. Once these guys know they are going to officiate an NFL game, they need to figure out what rules are different from wherever they are coming from.

My oldest referees youth soccer. Each year he does so, the association allows him to referee for an older age group. This year he was able to sign up to officiate U9/U10 games. The first thing he did was look to see what rules were different from U8. It's common sense, and he's an 8th grader getting $15 a game.

obviously they had to read the rules, attend seminars, and take tests.

but, having to juggle the multiple levels of rules while at game speed and looking for specific things depending on game situations and ensuring that they have the absolute perfect ruling is not an easy task. especially when the media is waiting to crucify their every mistake.

I think that it's safe to state, that most of us have a better appreciation of the real pro refs now.

Knowing the rule differences is one thing....enforcing the rules in front of 60,000+ live fans and millions watching at home is another. As stated above, these guys were reffing DiÌ 2 or lower games last year. None of these guys have seen the crowds, pressure or the speed of the game, ever. To expect these guys to know it all and be just as good as the normal refs is just not right.

It sounds like the coaches and players are treating them like substitue teachers. They're acting up and freaking out more because they know they can get away with it....so, do we blame the subs or the kids that should know better?

Last night John Fox was livid at being called for too many men on the field. He was swearing and screaming while pointing at the ref...he eventually challenged. Guess what, there were 12 men on the field. I would bet he gets a little upset if the regular refs were there and maybe still challenges....but since the replacement refs were there....he freaked out and just automatically assumed it was their mistake, never thinking his team was wrong.

Also while watching last night, Manning was sacked in the pocket by way of a horsecollar tackle. Immediately Chuckie responded, "That's a horsecollar, that's a horsecollar...." To which Tirico responded, "If a QB is in the pocket, a horsecollar tackle is fine." Meaning, even a recent former coach and current analyst didn't know the rule (and neither did I)....the refs called it right on the field.

At one point last night I saw them flipping a coin on the sideline near the replay booth...

Re: the "sack" before the first punt (which was returned for a TD) in Sunday's game:

Section 39 Tripping
TRIPPING
Tripping is the use of the leg or foot in obstructing any opponent (including a runner) (12-1-5 c).

INCIDENTAL CONTACT BEYOND FIVE-YARD ZONE
Beyond the five-yard zone, incidental contact may exist between receiver and defender as long as it does not
materially affect or significantly impede the receiver, creating a distinct advantage.
Exception 2: See Rule 8, Section 4, Article 5 for legal and illegal cut blocks.
Note 1: Once the quarterback or receiver of the snap hands off, is tackled, throws a forward or backward pass,
loses possession of the ball by a fumble or a muff that touches the ground, or if the quarterback leaves
the pocket area (see 3-24), the restrictions on the defensive team relative to offensive receivers (illegal
contact, illegal cut block) will end.
Note 2: Whenever a team presents an apparent punting formation, defensive action that would normally
constitute illegal contact (chuck beyond five yards) will no longer be considered a foul.
Penalty: For illegal contact or holding by the defense: Loss of five yards and automatic first down.
Penalty: For illegal cut block by the defense: Loss of 15 yards and automatic first down. (Personal
Foul)
SUPPLEMENTAL NOTES
(1) An eligible pass receiver who takes a position more than two yards outside of his own tackle (flexed
receiver) may not be blocked below the waist (illegal cut), unless the quarterback hands off, is tackled,
pitches the ball to a back, or if the quarterback leaves the pocket area.
(2) The unnecessary use of the hands by the defense, except as provided in Article 6, is illegal and is
commonly used in lieu of a legal block (Article 5) (See 12-2-2).
(3) Any offensive player who pretends to possess the ball and/or one to whom a teammate pretends to
give the ball, may tackled provided he is crossing his scrimmage line between the offensive tackles of
a normal tight offensive line.
A.R. 12.3 Second-and-10 on B40. B1 holds End A1 on the line of scrimmage. Quarterback A2 cannot throw the ball and
is tackled at the 50.
Ruling: Not a forward pass. Enforcement is from the previous spot. A’s ball first-and-10 on B35.
A.R. 12.4 Second-and-10 on A40. Eligible end A1 goes downfield to the B45 and is contacted (chucked) by defender
B1 as A1 attempts to evade him. The pass falls incomplete.
Ruling: A’s ball first-and-10 on A45. Illegal contact. Eligible receiver A1 is not considered an obstructing
player as he was more than five yards beyond line of scrimmage.
A.R. 12.5 Second-and-10 on A40. Eligible receiver A1 is chucked by B1 at the scrimmage line. B1 then chucks back A2
on the A44 prior to the pass. The pass then falls incomplete.
Ruling: Legal use of hands as A1 and A2 were not the same player.
A.R. 12.6 Second-and-10 on A30. Eligible pass receiver A1 takes a position three yards outside his own tackle and is
blocked below the waist at line of scrimmage. The pass falls incomplete.
Ruling: Illegal cut as eligible receiver was more than two yards outside of his tackle. Fifteen-yard penalty. A’s
ball first-and-10 on A45.
A.R. 12.7 Second-and-10 on A30. Eligible pass receiver A1 lines up one yard outside of his own tackle and is blocked
below the waist at the line of scrimmage. Pass falls incomplete.
Ruling: Legal block as receiver was lined up within two yards of the tackle. A’s ball third-and-10 on A30.
OFFICIAL NFL PLAYING RULES 70

A.R. 12.8 During a pass behind the line (forward or backward), B1 uses his hands on potential receiver A1 who is
behind A’s line. B1 is not using his hands to ward off A1, to push or pull A1 out of the way in order to get to
the runner (passer), or to push or pull him out of the way in an actual attempt to catch or recover a loose ball.
Ruling: Holding by the defense. Loss of five yards and first down for Team A (14-8-5).
Article 7 No defensive player may trip an opponent.
Penalty: For tripping by defense: Loss of 10 yards.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2011_Rule_Book.pdf


UNNECESSARY ROUGHNESS
Article 8 There shall be no unnecessary roughness. This shall include, but will not be limited to:
(a) striking an opponent anywhere with the foot or any part of the leg with a whipping motion;
(b) contacting a runner out of bounds;
Note: Defensive players must make an effort to avoid contact. Players on defense are responsible for knowing
when a runner has crossed the boundary line, except in doubtful cases where he might step on a
boundary line and continue parallel with it.
(c) a member of the receiving team cannot go out of bounds and contact a kicking team player out of
bounds. If this occurs on a kick from scrimmage, post-possession rules would apply if appropriate (9-
5-1);
(d) running or diving into, or throwing the body against or on a ball carrier who falls or slips to the ground
untouched and makes no attempt to advance, before or after the ball is dead;
(e) unnecessarily running, diving into, cutting, or throwing the body against or on a player who (i) is out of
the play or (ii) should not have reasonably anticipated such contact by an opponent, before or after
the ball is dead; or throwing the runner to the ground after the ball is dead;
(f) a kicker/punter, who is standing still or fading backwards after the ball has been kicked, is out of the
play and must not be unnecessarily contacted by the receiving team through the end of the play or
until he assumes a distinctly defensive position.
(g) If a player uses any part of his helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/”hairline” parts) or
facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily.
(h) any player who grabs a helmet opening of an opponent and forcibly twists, turns, or pulls his head.
(i) Illegal contact with the helmet against the knee of the snapper during an attempt for a field goal or
kick try.
(j) if a player illegally launches into a defenseless opponent. It is an illegal launch if a player (1) leaves
both feet prior to contact to spring forward and upward into his opponent, and (2) uses any part of his
helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/”hairline” parts) to initiate forcible contact against any
part of his opponent’s body.
Note: This does not apply to contact against a runner, unless the runner is still considered to be a defenseless
player, as defined in Rule 12, Section 2, Article 9.
Penalty: For unnecessary roughness: Loss of 15 yards. The player may be disqualified if the action is
judged by the official(s) to be flagrant.
Note: If in doubt about a roughness call or potentially dangerous tactics, the covering official(s) should always
call unnecessary roughness.

well, they don't call spearing as long as it's on a RB; maybe they don't call tripping as long as it's on a QB.

why does it just state "defensive player" though? for instance, an OL who is beat by a bull-rush could use a common (and I thought illegal) technique is to fall backwards and wrap one of your legs around the defenders. Both of you fall straight down and it gives the QB (or RB) a couple extra seconds.

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I don't disagree with you often, but I will here. Once these guys know they are going to officiate an NFL game, they need to figure out what rules are different from wherever they are coming from.

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If it were only about knowing all the rules, which is to say knowing each and every rule and being able to recite it, I would agree with you, Cap. But I don't believe these guys have had a year to learn all the rules, and I don't believe they've quit their day jobs to do it, hehe. These Ref's have never had to do the job they are doing in front of sold-out stadiums and with 330-pound guys screaming at them in real-time and at speeds they've never seen before.

Here's something else to consider. These guys aren't even the next-best officials available. The NFL isn't getting Division-1 guys. These are dudes who have done Division-2 and Division-3 games. Hell, I think I read that one or two of them actually worked that idiotic Pantie-Bowl. These dudes are so out-classed it's not even funny. This is like a bunch of high-school players being thrown into the starting lineup of an NFL team, hehe.

I'd also say that the reason I blame the NFL more than the officials union is because as amazingly popular and lucrative as the NFL is, they've never even bothered to hire ref's full-time. There's so much money to go around and they won't protect the brand? Please.

According to Rovell, the average pay for NFL game officials last season was $149,000. Under the NFL's last proposal, that would increase to more than $189,000 by 2018. In addition, a game official in his first year in 2011 made an average of $78,000. Under the NFL's last proposal, he would make more than $165,000 by the end of the new agreement.

web page

I do not know whether this pay includes playoff games.

I am not sure what all the hubbub is about.

I'm pretty sure the hubbub this time around revolves around the pension. The league wants to reduce or eliminate the pension plan for officials... somebody could probably find the details... These guys have full time jobs, how much pension should you get for a job you work 17 days a year?

If a ref gets injured during a game, I would be ok with the idea of him getting something afterwards.

But I think the idea of getting paid money after you stop working is ridiculous.

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The players are professionals, the Refs should be, too.

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I was watching the highlight videos and the talking BSPN heads waxing poetic on how unacceptable the officiating is, how it's unsafe.

If it's unacceptable now, then why wasn't it unacceptable then? Trent Dilfer is going off about the Moreno fumble last night, but I seem to remember a Pittsburgh game vs Miami where Miami should have gotten the ball to ice the game, but Pittsburgh was allowed to run a play from the 1, and got the ball into the endzone to win the game (if needed, someone correct my fuzzy memory).

Hits to the head, hits to quarterbacks, def/off PI that all should've shouldn't have been called have been going on this year, and I haven't noticed a significant difference from last year.

The delay to the game because the refs can't keep up is a problem, and the supposed "intimidation" going on by the players on the refs is also a problem, but hopefully that can get sorted out.

I think all this outrage is blown way out of proportion.