DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Ref saga continues . . .

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8427652/locked-nfl-referees-return-early-week-sources

Sources: Ref lockout could end soon

The NFL and the NFL Referees Association made enough progress in negotiations Tuesday night that the possibility of the locked-out officials returning in time to work this week's games has been discussed, according to sources on both sides.

An agreement in principle is at hand, according to one source familiar to talks, although NFL owners have postured with a "no more compromise" stance.

Although league sources said it would take a week to get the locked-out officials on the field, the NFLRA says its 121 referees have been trained on the new rules implemented last season, have already passed physicals or are prepared to pass physicals immediately. New official game uniforms designed by Nike are "hardly an obstacle," according to a source.

Both sides have made concessions on previous sticking points such as a taxi squad of 21 new officials and pension plans that sources say the final meaningful hurdle is, as one source said, "about a little more money."

While league sources say owners who participated in a conference call with commissioner Roger Goodell during Tuesday's talks had instructed the negotiating team to set a firm barrier for the financial settlement, the NFLRA is prepared to accept a new agreement primarily in the form of a "ratification bonus," which would compensate its 121-member union for concessions it is willing to make.

The NFLRA and the league have all but agreed on developing a 21-member "taxi squad" that Goodell has pushed, but not at the financial cost of the union members.

The NFLRA, citing that it once utilized the now-defunct NFL Europe as a training ground of prospective officials, is willing to train 21 officials from the major college ranks by including them in offseason seminars as well as incorporate them in training camp work.

The NFLRA would not unionize those officials and would want them compensated by the league if "they are brought up from the minors" to work a regular-season game.

Goodell has wanted the power to "bench" officials who underperform or are downgraded during the season. The NFLRA contends the league already has that ability because there are always between one and four crews that sit home each week and would be more qualified to substitute in such a scenario.

The NFLRA also wants to form an "expert committee" that would be major contributors to the league's stated goal to improve officiating. Under this proposal, the committee would be comprised of some of the top retired officials and supervisors of major college conferences who had served as NFL officials.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...r-an-agreement/

Game-deciding blown call was what it took to spur an agreement

Posted by Michael David Smith on September 26, 2012, 12:28 PM EDT

From the first day of the NFL’s lockout of its officials, the conventional wisdom was that it would take a game-deciding blown call to spur the owners to get a deal done.

And the conventional wisdom was right.

However fans in Green Bay and Seattle remember the Seahawks’ game-winning touchdown on Monday night, a touchdown that came only after Seattle’s Goldent Tate got away with an offensive pass interference penalty and only after Green Bay’s M.D. Jennings caught the ball first, everyone else will remember that so-called touchdown as the reason the NFL and the referees finally got a deal done.

If the report from ESPN’s Chris Mortensen that a deal is imminent for the regular refs to be back on the field Sunday is correct, then there’s no way to view this agreement as anything other than a direct result of the NFL spending all day Tuesday wiping egg off its face. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell may have seemed aloof during the referees lockout, but he’s not above listening to the paying customers, who were outraged by what they saw on Monday night.

Perhaps more importantly, the owners — who are ultimately Goodell’s bosses — aren’t above listening to the paying customers. And the owners listen to their employees, too, and there’s no question that NFL coaches and players were telling the owners that a deal simply has to get done.

So something good may have come from that bad call. Not that it’s much consolation to the Packers.

. . . and keeps going and going . . . c'mon Mort . . . !

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...flra-agreement/

Cold water being dashed on reports of NFL-NFLRA agreement

Posted by Darin Gantt on September 26, 2012, 1:24 PM EDT

As if on cue, the brake-pumping has begun.

With the first wave of reports that a deal between the NFL and locked-out officials was close, next comes the wave of reports saying “Not so fast.”

Sports Illustrated’s Peter King just tweeted: “NFLRA negotiator Scott Green has notified officials that a deal is not imminent.”

That dovetails with the NFL Network’s Albert Breer’s report this morning, which acknowledged progress but noted substantial differences on the pension issue.

Perhaps the truest words of the last hour were uttered by NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith, who also took to Twitter.

“Having done this before, everyone needs to wait until the ink is dry.”

Again, all signs point toward this thing being finished, and perhaps soon. Our long, national nightmare is almost over.

But as we approach the finish line, the urge to mark territory runs strong in the media, and sometimes needs to be curbed.

jc...

I hope everyone understands, it never had to come to this...

No one forced the NFL to hire unqualified scab labor to officiate these games. That was a choice Roger and the boys made, for reasons only they can explain.

The NFLRA agreed to continue officiating games while the negotiating process continued, but Roger and the boys would have none of it.

Honestly, I believe these negotiations have been more about the egos of Goodell and the billionaire owners than it was about finances or contract issues.

I expect to hear a whole lot a "spin" from the commish, about how this deal got done once the NFLRA agreed to the terms Roger and his boys laid down.

Hopefully, this will be a "long term" deal so a fiasco such as this is not repeated for a very long time. It is kind of sad that it took a nationally televised "bad call" by a junior college ref, to get everyone's attention...and too bad the Packers had a win taken away in the process.

The perception that officiating a NFL game is easy or that almost anyone can do it... has been laid to rest, buried 6 feet under.

You're right.

The NFLRA could have accepted the owners' proposal and they could have worked this entire season. They could have worked to meet somewhere in the middle. However, they didn't. They stood their ground on issues that were obviously important to the owners.

It's all the officials and the NFLRA's faults

See how easy it is to blame just one side?

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The NFLRA agreed to continue officiating games while the negotiating process continued, but Roger and the boys would have none of it.

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This is the first I heard that... are you sure?

John Brenkus' Sports Science is USUALLY a good segment.

But I lost a little respect when he blatantly ignored (like a lot of people want to) the fact that Jennings was still in the air, and only had one foot down when Tate got his hands on the ball...

Hell Herm Edwards on NFL LIve just made a comment about how "If you switched the Helmets of the players, it'd be a Touchdown!"

OF COURSE IT WOULD HERM, THE OFFENSIVE PLAYER IS AWARDED POSSESSION IN A SIMULTANEOUS CATCH.

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And no one can say with any certainty that the Non-Replacement Refs would NOT have come to the same conclusion.

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Have to agree here.

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Usually when someones feet come down first, it's logically concluded that they came down first

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Funny, but that doesn't mean the possession is his, because he came down first.

I thought that Jennings caught the ball first and had more possession of the ball then Tate did throughout the catch ... meaning there was no simultaneous (equal) possession. If we had jump balls in the NFL I could give Tate that.

Never a TD.

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And no one can say with any certainty that the Non-Replacement Refs would NOT have come to the same conclusion.

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Your leading the witness and grasping at straws with this hypothetical.

If they did it still would not have been the correct call, but what peeves me the most is the fact that the NFL (Goodell) will not own up to the replacement refs making a mistake as they have in the past, when a bad call has decided the outcome of a game.

That's cute ... now we're playing word games.

Key word SIMULTANEOUS possession.
There was never a time I thought Tate had equal possession of the ball.

Do you think every instance of Simultaneous Catch was perfectly EQUAL?

Is that even possible?

It's not called "Equal Catch" it' called "Simultaneous" as in, happening at the same period..

Well at least they are making progress on the issue of getting the regular refs back.

On the rest of it we talked about the rules in the other ref thread. And herm was correct on the fact that had Jennings been tate it would have been a TD. He would have still needed to establish possession while contacting the ground after the Sim catch was made.

Theres like 4 rules that come into play. Again that is over but if you check the other thread I tried to expain why.
The main key is they are making progress to get the regular Refs back on the field which I think all of us want in the end.

I can't believe the owners and the absolute pittance they are offering the officials:

$150,000 per year for part time work. 16 games, 3 hours per game, equates to only $3,000 per hour. I don't get out of bed for less than 10Gs!

And they want to only increase that to $189,000 per year by 2018. Hello? If Latrell Spreewell can't feed his children on $15 Million how are these referees supposed to get by?

$16,500 contribution to a 401k. That's barely a game and half's pay?

First class airfare to and from games. Don't these owners have private jets?!?

I mean isn't it obvious that owners are squeezing these guys. Thank God for unions.

Link

Are you mad doctors make good money too? or engineers? Or hydrologists? Actors? Writers? Anybody who has more skill, talent, luck or whatever to make more money than you?

I mean get over your jealousy. Yah, that is what they want. They already had most of that. The NFL unilaterally wanted to take it away from them, and give them less. An industry that is making billions............and you somehow think the refs are greedy? That makes me laugh. I could have read to much into your post, but I don't think I did.

The refs want to be paid after the stop reffing.

And they don't want to the NFL to have the ability to get rid of refs that are not performing well.

Best write up I've seen yet on the subject, and it's not what Nick and OSUguy want to hear....

Chargers extend Floyd through 2015
Posted by Mike Florio on September 26, 2012, 9:03 PM EDT

Getty ImagesWith receiver Malcom Floyd on track for the first 1,000-yard season of his nine-year career, the Chargers have taken steps to keep him around for at least three more seasons.

The Chargers have announced that Floyd has signed a three-year extension. He’s under contract through 2015.

Floyd actually became an unrestricted free agent in 2011, but he re-signed with the Chargers, inking a two-year deal. He was due to earn a base salary of $2 million in 2012.

This year, Floyd has 13 catches for 227 yards and a touchdown.

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Goodell deserves a raise, not ridicule
Posted by Mike Florio on September 26, 2012, 8:48 PM EDT

Getty ImagesSome have suggested that Commissioner Roger Goodell’s handling of the officials lockout should result in the termination of his employment. The more accurate position is that he should get a raise.

Though Goodell is the ultimate steward of the sport, in some circumstances he is simply a minion. In this specific case, Goodell is doing what the NFL’s owners want him to do.

That’s the fact that remains to be lost on fans who spew venom toward the league office but none to the folks who hold the title to the team that holds the keys to the fans’ hearts. But it’s the owners of the various franchises who are trying to break the union, and Goodell is taking the heat on their behalf.

And if any owners disagree with what Goodell is doing, they should say so.

Of course, that applies to only 31 owners. The thousands of owners of the 32nd team definitely have been speaking out.


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NFL’s rulebook, casebook confirm call was incorrect
Posted by Mike Florio on September 26, 2012, 8:32 PM EDT

APThe NFL’s adroitly-drafted statement regarding the Monday night debacle in Seattle glosses over the most important question presented by the play.

What if Packers safety M.D. Jenning gained control of the ball before Golden Tate? As we address that question, keep in mind the difference between “control” and “possession.”

“When the players hit the ground in the end zone, the officials determined that both [Seahawks receiver Golden] Tate and Jennings had possession of the ball,” the league’s statement explains. “Under the rule for simultaneous catch, the ball belongs to Tate, the offensive player. The result of the play was a touchdown.”

In reality, the outcome was determined before the players hit the ground. That’s when Jennings first gained “control” of the ball, regardless of whether Tate eventually secured simultaneous “possession” of it.

The relevant portion of the official 2012 rules comes from Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5: “It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.” (Emphasis added.) Thus, it doesn’t matter whether the officials determined that Tate and Jennings jointly had “possession” when they landed; the question is whether Jennings “gained control” first.

The NFL’s statement likely omitted that fact because the video shows Jennings “gained control” first. This video shows the best angle; Jennings caught the ball with both hands while Tate had only one hand (his left) on the ball. Tate eventually got his right hand on the ball, but after Jennings “gained control” of it.

The league’s most recent casebook, which is posted at NFL.com, specifically addresses this situation at A.R. 8.29, under the all-caps title NOT A SIMULTANEOUS CATCH: “First-and-10 on A20. B3 controls a pass in the air at the A40 before A2, who then also controls the ball before they land. As they land, A2 and B3 fall down to the ground. Ruling: B’s ball, first-and-10 on A40. Not a simultaneous catch as B3 gains control first and retains control.” (Emphasis added.)

Some Seahawks fans defend the indefensible claim that the catch isn’t complete until the players land on the ground, citing the ever-confusing “Calvin Johnson rule,” which makes a catch not a catch until the player maintains possession through the act of going to the ground. They cling to that principle for a very good reason; the league’s statement specifically quotes the rule, blurring the line between “control” and “possession.”

Consider the plain language of the rule regarding a completed pass: “A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds: (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and (c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).”

This isn’t about maintaining control through the act of going to the ground; it’s about who first secured control, whether the players were in the air or on the ground. Jennings first secured control, while he and Tate were in the air.

Here’s A.R. 8.29, with the names of the player’s included: “Jennings controls a pass in the air before Tate, who then also controls the ball before they land. As they land, Tate and Jennings fall down to the ground. Ruling: Green Bay’s ball. Not a simultaneous catch as Jennings gains control first and retains control.”

Though it gets complicated, it’s actually pretty simple. Jennings gained control first. Tate, at best, secured joint control later. That’s not a simultaneous catch.

Then there’s the faction of Seahawks fans who believe that there was insufficient visual evidence to overturn the ruling on the field, regardless of whether the ruling was touchdown or interception. But that’s where the league’s statement also is wrong. It’s indisputable that Jennings gained control first, as evidenced by Jennings having two arms at the ball when Tate has only one.

As a result, we reject the league’s statement as the predictable sort of wagon-circling in which the league has been engaged ever since it put third-rate-at-best officials into the costume and pawned them off as sufficiently competent to rise to the challenge of officiating an NFL game. The very complexity of this rule proves that these officials lack the ability to remember, interpret, and apply these principles in real time.

Of course, the non-replacement replay official and the non-replacement league supervisor screwed this one up, too. Which perhaps highlights the importance of having non-replacement officials who know these rules and can apply these rules on the field at all times.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/category/rumor-mill/

So basically what Florio is saying is that the rulebook says different things for basically the same situation.

No, it explains how they are distinct imo.

Here is another article that explains all this better than I could.

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- I never believed this would happen, that a league as rich and smart as the NFL would even open the season without its best officials.

But here we are, three weeks into it -- and the inevitable has happened. For that, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell owes everyone has anything to do with the NFL an apology.

Talk about a labor problem that should be no problem, that's this one. The average NFL official makes about $150,000 a year. Apparently the league and officials union are relatively close in terms of establishing new salary guidelines, with salaries reaching $200,000 by 2018.

The officials don't want the NFL to switch from a pure pension plan to a 401K setup. Supposedly, the proposal from the 120 officials calls for the NFL to add about $38,000 annually per year to the pension plan. The NFL wants to pay about $20,000 annually into a 401K plan.

Another issue is the NFL wants the officials to be full-time league employees, while many officials have solid full- or part-time jobs that they want to retain.

The officials also don't like the idea that the league wants to hire some more officials and create a group of backups who can replace those who either prove to be inept, injured or aging.

How to fix this? Pay the officials $250,000 annually, tell them that they will have an elite pension plan -- and demand that they be full time, subject to being reviewed and replaced if problems arise. This is a business where the Browns were just sold to Jimmy Haslam for $1 billion. It's probably a $500 billion enterprise when you consider the value of 32 franchises, future television contracts and other revenue gushers.

A year ago, Goodell was deservedly praised for settling the labor differences with the players with only one preseason game being missed. That was a multibillion-dollar deal. The issues with officials are pennies found on the ground of a parking lot in comparison.

Yet, the NFL has allowed it to go on. The result? Blown calls, rules wrongly applied, and games that drag and never seem to end because a bunch of scared officials are worried about making mistakes.

It had to hit YouTube -- Enjoy a fan's plea: Call It Maybe




You can't blame the men in striped shirts. Most work small-college games and do it well. But not only are pros bigger, faster, sneakier and meaner than those college kids -- the stadiums are larger. The crowds louder. The coaches more intimidating. The rules are different.

Other than that, it's the same game.

Please, no more talk about how "the regular officials blow calls, too." Guess what: It is possible that two regular NFL officials would have disagreed on the touchdown/interception at the end of the Green Bay-Seattle game -- just as the replacement officials did.

But at least everyone in the NFL and its fan base would know that it was real officials who are sorting out the call -- and the odds of them getting it right are far better than what the nation saw on Monday Night Football. It is an issue of integrity, having the best, most experienced pro officials in the big games.

It's also an issue of safety, and athletes say there are more cheap shot and dangerous plays happening now than ever. And it's about doing what is right for the fans -- charging them full price to watch cut-rate officiating.

Come on, Roger Goodell, work it out. It can't be that hard, unless you make it so to prove exactly what point -- well, I don't know what point. All you gained is disputed games and millions of dollars of negative publicity.

Now make it stop, because there is no reason other than personal pride to allow it to continue for another game.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2012/09/nfls_roger_goodell_should_apol.html

Ak all's I've ever said is that the ref didnt blow the call as bad as some people think.
On the control part that is for when a player is hitting the ground. I'l try to explain. If Jennings had come down clean with it and while hitting the ground Tate jumped on him grabbing the ball too. That would not have been Sim possession.
In this case they both went up for the ball and while in the air they both had a part of the ball..

The media are just acting like little kids on the whole thing because they can. You have to include what a catch is as well. Maintaining Control of the ball while in the act of hitting the ground. Everything is started "when they are making contact with the ground.

Because both players have a right to attempt to catch the ball and both players when making contact with the ground didnt let the ball hit the ground thus maintained "control" it is the passing teams ball sim possession.

Like the call or hate the call, there is no evidence that could overturn it. I could see a reg ref making that call. And Ive explained why many times.

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The relevant portion of the official 2012 rules comes from Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5: “It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.” (Emphasis added.) Thus, it doesn’t matter whether the officials determined that Tate and Jennings jointly had “possession” when they landed; the question is whether Jennings “gained control” first.

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I rest my case.

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"Fail Mary"

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Brilliant

Thanks for that reply. I disagree with you on that call in the same way Florio does. I think jennings gained control. then I think after he was still in the act of catching it (going to the ground) Tate touched it. However control had been established and given that Tate couldn't then wrest control it the ball, the best he could have done is cause an incompletion by interrupting the fall to the ground he'd have to knock the ball in such as way as JENNINGS didn't maintian his control.

I think you wrote your views well. Much better than I have mine. I still think you are wrong, but in general your right on the rules. I will concede that you could be somehow correct, but I'd still say it doesn't pass the eye test and should be changed. The larger issue is how bad these replacement refs are. Not this one play really. We both agree that push off was obvious. I think we agree that it likely would have been called by real NFL refs. (In my opinion it would have been w/o a doubt).



On the issue of Refs pay........I think you (not nick the previous poster) should be more upset the median income is below 50k. We should ALL make more money. I don't see why anyone should make less in any field if it's possible to make more. In the business of the NFL, there is money flooding in. The refs are an intergral part in it. Therefore to me, they deserve a chunk of it. Not as much as owners or even players....but a chunk. In my opinion what they are asking for seems fair. Also we have no idea of if they are willing to have the pool of alternates or immediate review or not (from my understanding there is constant review and grading of officials). We are not in the room with the negotiators. I have a feeling the sticking point is an increase per person (not into a pool that then will pay more people ((the alternate refs)) as the NFL wants. Effectively a pay cut. then the pensions. I think with those two out of the way they'd agree to alternates and a different review process. However, I don't know that either as I'm not there.



edit..........seeing stuff saying they might settle tonight again. I sure hope so! My 30 hours a week of watching tv/internet for football news/info is paying off. lol.

I take it you weren't an economics major.

Just bustin your chops man. I'm the one stuck footing the bill anyway. And you to some extent as well. All the ticket sales, TV money, everything that touches the NFL costs more.

That bag of Tostitos that you shove down your gullet shouldn't cost $5 but it does because it's the official nacho of the NFL!

I just wish we could unwind some of it. And I'd be happy to see my ticket prices cut by a percentage. Oh well.

It doesn't get solved until something like what's happening in the NHL happens. It'll happen to the NFL someday.

Lol, I sure wasn't. I hear you as well. We are getting raked over the coals for cash in all ways. I think the whole thing is overpriced, but it's somehow more popular than ever. We need $20 seats at the stadium somewhere as it's just to expensive to go to games (I go to about one a year, two on a good year). For me it's all the extras like airplane tickets that make it so expensive, but super expensive parking/tickets/food etc sure doesn't help. Or going to the bar at 9am in alaska where bars are super expensive either now that I think about it. lol.

I really do hope this gets settled fast. We all deserve it.

edit.....and if it happens before thursday night, the Ravens won't be able to blame the replacment refs when they lose!!!

Np Ak Thanks for keeping an eye on things. Hopefully as you said they get something done.
Also I agree, if they had just called the PI it would be a non issue. That part they blew and I think a reg ref would have called that because it was so blatent.

My internet keeps going out sadly not sure why we have some storms in the area but nothing that seems major just one of those nights I guess.

Now lets kick those Ravens to the curb tomorrow.

They're back

link

Excellent news they finally got it done.