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Just before I posted this in "Post-Game Thoughts," I second-guessed myself.... and decided to post it here instead.

"Why?" you might ask.

Well... even though it makes heavy reference to the game against the Giants, it speaks to something I've talked about in other threads.... my focus on individual (and team) progress throughout the season. Like many other Dawgs here, I never saw this season as a playoff-possible 16 game stretch. I sincerely doubt that my assessment would be much different if we were 3-2 or 2-3 right now. 4-1? Maybe I'd be waving flags, but with a bit less enthusiasm than many others. (I HAVE been a Browns fan since the early '60's, after all....)

Anyway, I thought I'd transfer my thoughts here for two reasons:

1. I've always thought that some of the best, liveliest and most passionate posts came in the "What I Saw" and "Post-Game Thoughts" threads... and that it was a shame that these threads couldn't be preserved like many others here at DT'ers.

2. I hope that my "Progress Thread" will continue throughout the season, so we can track, game-by-game what folks see as this season plays out.

That said, I'll post my pre-typed response to the Giant's game "Post Game Thoughts" thread here.... as seed for further exploration/examination in the coming weeks.

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I said before that I'm watching this year less for wins than I'm watching for individual growth.

Weeden: using the pocket better. Still locking onto his first read- that has to get fixed. He still makes the typical rookie bonehead play, but shows progress from Week One through yesterday. That 60-yarder to Gordon was about as righteous as anyone could have thrown... remember his first 2 games on long passes, if you want to see about progress. I like that there is a little bit of 'slinger in his attitude, but he's gotta learn when he's being baited into bad choices. He also has to stop thinking that a fastball solves everything even when he's NOT being baited. There's no sin in throwing a few away.

Norwood: stuck his hands on them, and brought them in. 0:29 in the first quarter: 3rd & 3 on the NYG 32. Tipped ball, changed pass trajectory, and kid still readjusted and brought the pass in. In traffic. First down @ the 21. This was just one example of a buttload of clutch catches he made in this game. Kid could be a keeper if he keeps this up.

Gordon: No 'Boltposes,' 2 TD grabs, fewer drops. Keep working, kid- make us believe you were worth the pick.

Marecic: does a one-game jump in effectiveness equal progress? Probably not, but he did just enough to keep me from joining the "Dump Marecic" chorus just yet.

Skrine: Not close to to challenging Haden, but played a pretty good first half. That INT call re Hixson on their first scoring drive was bogus as hell. Kid played the ball AND the receiver perfectly. Usama Young's helmet-2-helmet should have been the ref's call on that play. Buster: when you're 1-on-1 in the endzone and have position, YOU HAVE TO HAUL IN THAT BALL. Possession & control kills their 2nd score, son- and the game remains a 2-score spread, instead of 17-10.

Schwartz: held up pretty well all game long. I know he's been trashed in past weeks, but a lineman is doing his job when : 1. The QB's jersey stays reasonably free of grass stains 2. The yellow flags aren't flying with your number attached to them. Progress? I sure hope so.

Winn: Shows hustle on most plays. Still young, but flashes in ways that make me think we might have something down the road. Gets penetration on bull rushes, and seems to have a nose for where the QB is. Gotta watch him more.

TRich: Is learning that there will be no reliable interior holes to hit anytime soon, so he's looking to bounce runs outside more often. This is progress for him, but could end up being a tendency that opposing D's can plan for, if our OL doesn't become more consistently productive in the interior. I love how he never gives up on a play, and fights for every yard. Real-time game progress? Incremental, but he's learning how to play on this particular team when Shurmer's scripted plays break down. Keep doin' whatcha doin' son- ...but stay alert for any progress in interior line play. If they DO happen to start opening up holes, you could explode for Pro Bowl yardage in your rookie year. I can't imagine a LB corps that can bring you down on first contact. BIG numbers, yo.

Speaking of Shurmer: Son- you gotta pick it up! I had no probs with the back-to-back 4th-and goforit calls, but DAMN... when you routinely pull TRich from the lineup on 3rd-and-whatever, you limit what we can do on offense. Sometimes, just the threat of your most potent weapon in the backfield is enough to loosen D's to allow a big play downfield. Take Trent out on 3rd and 3, and you signal to everyone that the run is not a threat. "Strategy and Tactics" is introductory material for all incoming prospective officers in the military. Learn when to use each, son. Right now, you're flunking out of Officer's Training School (...and this is from a citizen who only knows about such training from his best friend, who actually WAS a member of the military...) Progress? Yes, some... but not nearly enough to instill confidence in this fan Step up, please.

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Final thoughts:

This young team took some lumps this past weekend. They found out just how hard it is to win games against playoff-caliber teams like the Giants. They also found out just how easily a commanding lead can slip away with just a few bad plays and 2 minutes of game time. In their previous game (Baltimore), they found out how closely they could play against the class of our own division.

Like I've said before:

Inches.
Milliseconds.
Momentary lapses in judgement.
Shoddy execution on ONE play by ONE player is all it takes.

Entire games can turn on any one of these... and when they happen one after another, it's simply too much for a young team to overcome against seasoned, playoff-experienced teams.

This season is great training for a nucleus that looks to be together for at least 4-6 years. If most of these youngun's play their way into a permanent spot on the roster, it almost won't matter what Jimmy Haslam does with the staff. They'll be seen as experienced players who are usable, rather than expendable. Which means they'll be together for the ride.

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As regards progress- what do you see? What do you NOT see- and with whom? Who's gonna pan out? Who's going to other teams?

For me, it will be interesting to revisit this thread over the season. I only hope that You Dawgs want to revisit it regularly in the coming weeks... it could prove to be a great diary of the 'Baby Browns' 2012 season.

all my best,
Clem

This team is young ...... very young.

If I have a young team, the first thing I do if I am a coach is to instill discipline in the team. Unfortunately, I see this as my biggest disappointment so far. I see a team that makes far too many elementary mistakes. This is an area that needs addressed immediately, because teams usually don't get more disciplined on their own. It has to come from the coach.

If we are going to go through on a position by position basis, I would have to give almost everyone an "I" for Inconsistent. This is to be expected with a very young and inexperienced team.

Weeden has done a lot of good things, and had some real head scratching mistakes. Since the first, disastrous game against the Eagles, Weeden is completing 60% of his passes for 1170 yards, 7 yards/attempt, 5 TD, 5 INT, and a QB rating of 78.7.

Last year we averaged 13 PPG. This year we are averaging 20 PPG. We have scored 10 TDs in 5 games so far. Last year we scored 20 total TDs for the entire year.

I see signs of hope, but they often get run over by physical and mental mistakes and sometime strange coaching decisions.

I have no idea why we pull Richardson on 3rd and 1 ........ and/or why we don't run Ogbonnaya once in a while just to change up tendencies. We ran Trent on 1st down ... if I noted it correctly ..... 6 st downs in a row in the last game. We run a lot on first down.If I (and others) notice this, so do opposing coaches.

Our receivers are also very young. Little appears to be regressing. He has the talent, but doesn't seem to be able to put it all together. He really needs to get it all together, or he's going to be out of a job rather quickly. He is an excellent blocker though. Maybe he can become a TE down the road if WR doesn't work out. The throws would be easier.

I am disappointed that MoMass is hurt again. He is our best WR, but if he can't stay on the field, it's tough to consider him as a long term solution. Norwood is probably our next best receiver overall, as far as running routes, catching the ball, and so on. Benjamin is promising, but hurt. Gordon really had a nice break-out game, and I think that he is our best chance at having a super-star receiver. His size, speed, and truly natural hands are better than anyone else on the team. He seems to be learning, so let's hope that he develops to his potential.

TE is a mystery. We have 2 older guys here, both of whom have battled injuries. Watson seems to be slowing down some. Smith is hurt. Cameron looks like a capable kid who might develop into something special.

Marecic had a couple of nice blocks in the past couple of games. He created the lane for Trent to take the outside for the TD against the Ravens. He had a nice block in the Giants game. Is it enough? I don't know.

Defensively, I like a lot of pieces, but they are still learning.

The DL has a ton of youth. Guys like Winn, Hughes, and Kitchen are all playing decent minutes. They had a total of 8 tackles against the Giants, and 26 tackles and a sack on the year so far. Nice production for 3 rookies 5 games in. However, while the DL has been getting pressure on opposing QBs (until the Giants game anyway) the sacks haven't been there. They are racking up tackles though, which is important, because the more your DL makes tackles, the less yards opposing players are getting. Rucker has 15 tackles and a sack. Rubin has 20 tackles so far. Sheard has 16 tackles and a sack. We need more push in the pass rush, and must start getting to opposing QBs more often. Opposing QBs have been too comfortable too often.

The LB corps has been a greatly mixed bag. Robertson look like a keeper. DQ has made impact plays, and losing him really opened the floodgates against the run in the Giants game.
Hopefully JMJ will get more playing time and develop. He was my pick to really impact the defense this pre-season, and there is still time for him to do so. Fujita has been so-so. Maiava has been blah. Fort looked overwhelmed in the Giants game. He made 10 tackles, but often well down the field, and made no real impactful plays. He does have a sack, an INT, and 2 passes defended ..... but using my eyes, the defense, which struggled against the Giants, fell apart once DQ went out. I really hope that JMJ develops into a guy who can take the rest of the playing time away from Maiava and Fujita. Neither of those guys is going to be a long term solution. Fujita looks slow .. mainly because he is slow.

The defensive backfield is struggling. Haden being out really hurt us a lot. He is our best CB by far. Patterson should be taking the opposing team's #2 receiver right now. Brown is forced inton that role right now, but it is obvious that Brown's slowed down a lot, and that his best days are behind him. Skrine has a future in the NFL, but I have a difficult time seeing him covering top receivers at 5'9". He's got excellent speed and leaping ability, but I don't know if he's another Frank Minnifield. I think that he can cover the slot effectively, and is definitely a useful guy. I just don't know that he's a future starter on the outside. Wade has played some .....and has struggled. Lotta youth here, with one broken down former quality starter.

Safety is just a mess. Ward has been decent on occasion. On the other (hopefully unbroken) hand. he's not really making those impact plays you want to see from the Safety position. In 2 plus years, (29 games) he has 2 sacks and 2 INT. Not exactly supremely impressive. He has 13 total passes defended in his career ..... 10 as a rookie ,,,, 3 last year .. and zero this season. He's making tackles, but we need more from that position.

That being said, Ward has been spectacular compared to the other safety candidates. Hagg crashed and burned in the first couple of games. Young is a horrible, awful, tremendously poor safety. I would almost try Bademosi there. He is an exceptional tackler on special teams, he breaks down effectively, and I think that he could be a future contributor on defense in addition to special teams. (where he is a beast)

I worry that our defensive scheme is not taking best advantage of our talent. I know that we have holes, but when we insisted on remaining in man when guys were struggling, and when our zone defense had guys way out of position, that falls on the coaches. The injury to DQ hurt, but man, our defense has still been inconsistent regardless. Losing both Haden and Taylor hurts, but other teams seem to be able to scheme around problems like that. We seem to run our normal defense no matter who is out there, and make no adjustments, even when opposing teams are running the ball down our throats. I was never a fan of Jauron, and questioned whether his defense would work in the run heavier AFCN. Thus far, the answer would have to be "No". I don't know if I want to go back to the supremely complicated defenses of the Rob Ryan days, but Jauron's defense seems almost simplistic. We have 2 very, very good veteran QBs in the division, and one promising guy in Cincy ...... so we can't just play simple defenses against them. We need to mix things up.

My main issue with the offense is the predictability factor. Run on first down, try to "fool" the defense by pulling Trent and then throwing the ball. I can call far too many plays based on formation and personnel. It was funny when I did so in the gameday thread for the 1st 2 plays of the season, and got the exactly right. It has become less funny as time has gone along. The offense needs less situational substitutions, and more plays run out of similar groupings and formations.

I just don't know if there is time or inclination to fix this. I do think that we are going to win games from here out. I think that we will win 6-8 games, mostly as the offense improves. Regardless, if the coaches sabotage the players with poor preparation and poor schemes/use of personnel, then that could change horribly.

I did not like Shurmur when he was hired. I did not like the Jauron hire. I have tried to support them anyway ........ but it gets harder as I see the things I see happening.

This is actually a good idea for a thread but it will be dumped on sorry to say.

I actually was watch Weeden in some of the replays and he was looking off recievers. His improvement is huge. Lots of room to grow for sure I like the kid and think he could really be the real deal.

Now speaking for kids TRIch is a beast. He just wants to ball you can see it in the the same as you can see it in Cribbs. They want to make a difference which leads me to the

Coach. I said yesterday Im down and I guess I just cant stay away but darn Shurmur is bad. He sealed his deal yesterday and then tossing the players under the bus like he did I have to say he is regressing. I hold no hope that will get any better at anything he does as coach and that hurts the me worst because that means we have to replace him and endure another round of learning.

I guess the only positive I can take away from that is I see the talent that his here and maybe a good coach will be able to get the most out of them which will be better for all of us. I just dont know who that coach could be.
Ive asked myself many times who is out there that I would want to come in here now and sadly I dont have an answer to that question.
Hopefully Haslam does.

Again, good idea on this thread, I really look forward to reading other dawgs thoughts that are unbias and just stick with the subject.

Good idea, Clem.

The biggest thing I'm seeing is a bunch of rooks. WR corps is super raw, with no definitive order. A defined #1 guy has to emerge. We finally have some talent across the board, but it needs a little time to set. I would've disagreed before, but we need another CB. Our secondary just got torched yesterday. Having matchup with the Bengals because of AJ Green is one thing, but yesterday was proof that we don't have the overall talent level at CB. I like Skrine for what he is. I don't really get the love for Patterson, I think he's playing one CB spot higher than he should.

I wouldn't mind taking our lumps with High and/or Bademosi at FS. Baddy sure can fly.

Schwartz was really worrying me coming out of TC, but I'll give him a big thumbs up for his play against the level of competition he's had to face. Guards need to pick it up. It seems like someone on the oline messes up on each play, which leads posters to blame one or two guys. Perhaps the line as a whole needs some gelling time. Bummer, because that was actually supposed to be our strength.

I'll repeat what I said earlier in the season. I didn't expect this team to be watchable for the first half of the season due to their low experience. ID say they are slightly ahead of that schedule, but ultimately they will be judged on the progress they've made over the course of one full season.

Alot of Rookies all making Rookie mistakes, but we can only use that excuse for a few more weeks, they have to grow up, We can look over rookie mistakes once or twice and it's been once or twice now, How many times have you heard if you have nothing throw it away, live to play another down, take the 3 dont force it, Weeden needs to learn what he could force at Oklahoma St, he cant force here in the NFL, take the 3 control the game.

Young....Need another good draft 3-4 more starters from the draft, 1 being a guard to go along with a FA guard.

I get mad, sick of excuse and turn them off, but all in all, we are seeing improvements week after week, Weeden is the real deal, take away the rookie mistakes and his stats are comparable to Bradford, Cutler and a few other franchise QB around the leauge, need to do a better job of protecting the ball and know when to press and when to protect.

Richardson is a down right beast....Schwarts is doing well, will only get better, face it he's gone up against some of the NFL best over the last few weeks and has held his own, he's not gonna win every play as a rookie, were ok thier .

Next draft we need to look at LB...FS..SS...Guards

I pray we get a win, Alittle confidence to this young team could spark a streck of wins, Pray for some luck these guys are playing hard, they deserve a few wins in a row, We fans deserve a few wins in a row....Letes start it this Sunday....GO BROWNS

Just a comment on Weeden's progress: The fact that people get down on him about some things so quickly tells me that he's showing enough that it's easy to forget he's a rookie. If the kid were 22 or 23 years old, I'd bet there'd be more patience with him from some on this board.

As it stands, I think he IS making progress and many if not most of his mistakes ARE rookie QB mistakes. Hopefully the progress continues, but so far it seems as though we finally have a young (experience wise) QB on the right track.

As a whole, the team is close in many games, but not good enough/talented enough to win said games unless they play near flawlessly. I've said it before - good teams find ways to win games, and bad teams find ways to lose them. This team MUST start finding ways to win. Once that happens, the mental hump will be overcome as well.

Not only that ...... but the players all around Weeden are young players as well, also making youthful mistakes.

I still think that the second half of the season will see a huge step forward for the offense, into a truly explosive and impressive unit. Hell, we've already improved from 13 points per game last year to 20 per game so far this year. That's with tons of mistakes. Hopefully we'll correct those mistakes and get to 23 or 24 PPG. That would be an impressive turnaround on offense.

IMHO Norwood was our best receiver in preseason. I was shocked at how bad he was 2 weeks ago. This week, he was terrific. I believe he can become that go to receiver for Weeden. Not the most physically gifted player but he does run solid and consistent routes. With all these learn on the fly receivers, consistency is what can separate him as well as MO from everyone else.

Weeden has improved everywhere. Even his bonehead decisions aren't as bad as they were. He has improved his touch on the swings and dumps and he is getting in rhythm deep.

OL has been better than most have given them credit for. Schwartz has probably been our best offensive linemen. The real improvement was Joe Thomas and Mack. Thomas owned Pierre-Paul and Mack was just everywhere. Guards get no love but they have been pretty good.

Richardson has been hesitating alot and this week there was less hesitation and more burst. Now on the 3rd and 1 he was stuffed on, there were lanes and he was waiting instead of powering through. I hate that, be the beast. Major improvement but still has a ways to go.

Cameron has progressed in his blocking and he is vastly improved at giving Weeden a wide target instead of the slim fading away target he was before.

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Richardson has been hesitating alot and this week there was less hesitation and more burst. Now on the 3rd and 1 he was stuffed on, there were lanes and he was waiting instead of powering through. I hate that, be the beast. Major improvement but still has a ways to go.

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I agree - especially about the 3rd and 1. That's a rookie mistake. Hopefully he learned that you have to bull your neck and move the pile in that situation. To try to bounce outside isn't usually a good thing there.

There's progress being made if you consider the Browns are 3-4 plays from winning than 6-7 plays a game that was seen in the past.

Offensively.it looks like whoever is calling plays has no idea what kind of identity they need to establish. its a young offense that needs a OC who has had success elsewhere. Childress and Shurmer whats their measure of success in the past?
the Browns o-line put together one of their best performances in many years vs the Giants. It shutdown a elite pass rush.

The Browns need to keep Josh Gordon in the starting lineup. He is the only WR they have that can create a mismatch downfield. Norwood needs to start. his hands are reliable and his route running is getting more savy.

Right now the Browns are getting nothing out of their TEs. No one is exactly a nightmare for a defense.

Weeden is a typical rookie QB..1 step foward..2 steps back. But he's being asked to do too much.

defensively the Browns don't do anything well. Can't rush the passer or stop the run.
this is a area where Heckert went bargin bin shopping on. Now we know the Philly game was a mirage cause Vick hasn't played good all year.
even with Haden back,its not a very good defense.

as we have seen a youth movement combined with a inexperianced HC has not equated success.
I think 0-5 could have been avoided if this franchise would have been more pro active in FA.

I really look at the Giants success in the running game as the team just giving up. Did you see the angles Ward and Young took on David Wilson's TD run? Talk about lack of focus and desire. And lack of focus and giving up is not synonomous with lack of talent. No doubt, losing DQ hurt. But you only give up 200 yards rushing when there is no focus and you are starting to quit. That's on the coach.

So in staying with the theme of progress, I don't believe Shurmur is showing any. I really wish he would have let Childress call the plays. He is getting increasingly volatile with the media and he's calling out his players in a situation where he had an opportunity to accept some of the blame. He's losing it.

On a side note, someone must have lit into Tabor. His unit has been really good since Cinci. So I guess there's progress there.

I think this thread is premature, Clem. Reboot 5,697 is coming!

I want to keep this simple. Our progress can simply be shown in what Weeden has done after the wk1 debacle (as someone else posted in the gameday thread):

293yds/game 60% 7.0YPA 5TDs 5INTs

T.J. Ward admitted to giving up.

"One time I didn't even try, it was so late in the game I just went for the strip," Ward said. http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/10/run_defense_shredded_again_cle.html#incart_river

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I think this thread is premature, Clem. Reboot 5,697 is coming!

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But a guy can hope, can't he? I don't mean that Jimmy has to keep everyone, but I'd hate to see some promising youngun's get traded away in the FO turnover. I'll (once again) live with the learning curve, but- daaaaang- I really think we have some talent to work with here... when can we get off this coaching/FO carousel?

Wow...

You see progress out Jordan Cameron..really. 5 games 86 yds 0 TDs.
some TE's get 86 YDs in one game.
Cameron wouldn't see the field if he was on a good football team.
the offense overall is looking more effective this year.
if you score 27 pts thats enough points to win.
but the offense should be better...they invested high draft picks in it.
its irrelevant the Browns held Ray Rice to 49 YDs. for the one the Browns were putting more players around the LOS and daring Flacco to beat them downfield.which he did.
cause the very next week they have up 250 on the ground to a team that hasn't run the ball good all year long.

He played in 3 games as he was injured from preseason in week 1 and 2 and since he caught only 6 passes for 33yds last season I think 8 for 86 is pretty fine PROGRESS for a 3 game sample size

Ravens scored 16p on Offense so holding Rice to 49yds obv worked out well and was far from "irrelevant"

The woeful K.C Chiefs held the Ravens to 3 FGs last week.
would you say the Chiefs have a good defense?
hate to break it to you..the Browns run defense is still porous.
in fact the Browns defense isn't good with or without Haden.
even with Haden they still lost 7 straight games.
Jordan Cameron like I said couldn't find the field for a good team.
which is the case for several Browns players.

I agree that Cameron has shown progress. He went from not even getting on the field to catching some balls. He doesn't have the same ceiling as a Gates or one of the "freaks of nature for a guy his size" kinda dudes, but he is improving and even producing.

Weeden is showing progress, though he continues to fold later in games. People can't focus on his age. He was in that second tier of QB's coming out, which falls into the "developmental" category. He's followed his gunslinger reputation, showing the tendencies which reflect the offense he came from. He's actually had rather good protection as of late which will help his development, though when the line does have a bad game, and it will happen again, he's going to show his rookie colors. We haven't seen the last of his multiple-INT games. Soon-to-be 29 or not, he's still a rookie from a backyard offense.

The line...made strides in pass-blocking, haven't in run-blocking. Thomas has played better as of late. Maybe his knee is feeling better? If they ever have a good run-blocking game, T-rich is gonna have a 200-yard day.

Speaking of T-rich, he's still learning how to run in the NFL. He does much more Barry Sanders jitterbugging than I saw out of him in college, but it's amazing that a man his size can do those things. He is actually developing as well. When he hits his stride in the middle of the year, and when the line has a good game opening holes for him, he's going to do some amazing things. I'm elated we went after him, and he's obviously proving the few doubters wrong. Sure, to an extent all running backs are similar to other backs, but there isn't another back in the league who has his exact combination of size, power, and the ability to not just run through the first tackler, but make the guy totally miss.

Receivers. Man, it's hard to say they are developing for various reasons. Greg Little has regressed and was taken out of the gameplan last week. He deserved it. I backed him last year, sighting his lack of playing time before last year and his rookie status. He doesn't have any excuses this year and doesn't appear to be a natural receiver to me. Norwood blew his first chance but came back with a vengeance last week. I'd call that progress. I've always stated I thought Mass was a 1000-yard receiver if we ever got a QB and if he could stay healthy. Well, now people see how well he can get open and make plays, but he can't seem to stay on the field. I am encouraged that this injury was a hammy, as his problems before have been concussion-related. Gordon? Hard to say. Yeah, he had a good game, but both were easy catches, and he did bobble the second TD. He is what he is, which is a developmental guy. His track record of failed drug tests and lying scare the Hell out of me. He has actually been rewarded in spite of all his transgressions. I honestly fear he's going to learn a lesson the hard way, and when he does, we'll look like dopes.

Defense...some of these guys are playing above their heads right now, but this unit isn't good. I'm not seeing any progress. Fans that look at the stats only won't see the real picture. Yes, we are near the top part of the league in sacks, but it's because of the scheme, not because of the talent. Jackson is our leading sacker with 3. That's not his game, that's the scheme. Beyond that? I'm not going to double-check, but I'm sure we don't have another guy with more than one sack. Our linebackers outside of Jackson are trying but they mostly aren't very good. Our corners can't hang, as we have one legit starter in Haden then a bunch of wannabe's who belong in the slot or in a retirement home. We don't have a FS on this team that can start.

Special teams have been better, but they are shaky overall.

Coaching...I haven't seen the kind of progress out of Shurmur that I expected. I'm with Dj on this, in that I want to like him. I DO like him. I happened to agree with declining the penalty that led to a 4th and 3, and that move turned out to be the right one. However, his playcalling at critical times still baffles me. I don't know which poster said it, so my apologies to you, but you had it right when you said the following:

(paraphrasing here)... "Shurmur still strikes me like he thinks he's the smartest guy in the room."

He's out-smarting himself sometimes. The schemes, they work. The plays, they work. The timing of the plays? Just. Plain. Weird.

Shurmur is losing me.

I don't fault Jauron for anything. He's trying to make magic out of a talent-less unit.

Who knows what kind of impact Chilly has. I have no proof to say I think he's been a benefit, but I do believe he has been. The offense is a little more open and the schemes seem to work.

Special teams coaches are over-rated. They are good if they have talent and suck if they don't. They can't hide behind schemes.

So do I see progress? Marginal progress, yes, but on a team severely lacking in talent, there's only so much progress to be had.

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I guess you missed the BAL game? We held Ray Rice to 49yds at his home...guess he's another one who hasn't played good all season

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Perhaps that game was an anomaly since our season average is giving up 4.7 ypc.. which is tied for 26th... A big part of the problem is that we have played the better part of every game from behind.

Progress... I know we make some rookie mistakes and I expect a rookie to get out of position once in a while or to force something once in a while or to be slow in a read because they are still thinking and not reacting yet.... but some of our mistakes, like jumping off sides during a punt situation on 4th and 3 to give up a first down? C'mon man... you learn not to do that in the 4th grade.... the dropped balls? Catching a ball that hits you in the hands isn't a rookie or a veteran thing... if you make a wrong read and cut out when the QB expects you to cut in, I can live with that... dropping a ball that hits you in the hands is not that.

I'm not going to go through every unit or every player. I think Weeden looks pretty good and in reality he isn't making any more mistakes than any of our other rookies, but the magnitude of his tends to be bigger in the grand scheme of things so they get dinged more.

Between Gordon and Little, one of them needs to step up and be all that they can be... and they need to be it consistently.

I think our OL will be pretty good with some time together though... I wouldn't mind an OG upgrade at years end but we won't be able to commit a high draft pick to it because of other needs. I won't be upset if we start next season with the same OL.

On O I see Weeden developing and TRich is going to be great, we need a great WR and we need a TE to step up and be the consistent go-to TE... I see playmakers on O beginning to develop.

On D.. not so much. I see some talent across the board but I don't see the core group stepping up that is going to become the playmakers, the nucleus of the defense... Hopefully if we can get Phil back and Haden back and keep DQ on the field this group can grow... My biggest concern is that I don't see who our "feared" pass rusher is... and every team needs one guy that gets to the QB without stunts or blitzes or any of that.. he is just a threat to beat his man on every play..

Coaching.. man I run hot and cold with Shurmur. I honestly don't know when its execution and when its playcalling and scheming... but we look great, then we disappear, then we look good again... in most games we don't look great to start, we look flat, then we get better. In that aspect the Giants game was a little different.

This team really needs a W to put a shot in the arm because it really does get frustrating to go to work every day for no reward.. and make no mistake about it, the reward for these guys is winning, it's not the paycheck. They know the paycheck is coming, it's the Ws they want.. and I hope they get one real soon.

Agree for the most part, although I see a bit more talent on the D side than you, but we'll see what that unit looks like once Haden and Taylor come back and JMJ gets inserted...never understimate what a legit no1 guy can do to a unit, especially at WR or CB where you need 3-4 good guys and missing the no1 has a really bad trickle down effect...with Haden, not only the no1 position will be upgraded, but all other matchups too as the guys go back to easier matchups

The receivers are troubling me some...Massa is making me eat some crow but his catch to target ratio is still bad (50%, 9 catches, 18 targets) and as been bad for his entire career now...the rooks have a worse ratio, but that was to be expected. That's a unit where I would have liked a vet mixed in instead of 2 rooks...that's on Heckert, although the FA options were incredibly overrated and over-valued, so I kind of understand

This season for me is all abou the 2nd half of the schedule....we'll learn a lot about those guys when we ask them to play and win despite a terrible record...we'll see. Too bad we haven't mixed in a win or 2 to keep them more focused and the fans happier but that's another challange for the coaching staff...It's only been 30% of the season...we'll see and know more in 2-3 months

Rucker and Parker have both been hobbling around like they are playing in pain. Neither is getting any kind of rush and aren't doing much in the run game either. I still think Winn is the answer at RDE.

We have 2 linebackers that are pretty good in Robertson and DQ. Anytime either comes out of the game, a big play is gonna happen. Hell just watch for Maiva, if he is in the game, bad things happen.

This is a better secondary than given credit for. Haden will make a difference but with Patterson out ugg.

As for Shurmur, I think he is a good coach. I like most of his playcalling and he showed more aggression this week than the previous 20 weeks combined. I still would like to see this team in short yardage just line up and and move the pile. The trickery works if you use it 20% of the time. It is not trickery if you play action fake it every 3rd and inches down.

I do feel he would be better served allowing his OC to run the offense but hey we are putting up a lot better numbers than we did a year ago.

Honestly, we are getting about what we should expect from the offense. Defense has been a let down but Taylor, Gocong and Haden are major players in this defense. Add in Patterson now out and DQ with a concussion and it may not get better anytime soon. Jauron is getting what he can out of these guys but just to many backups are being asked to start.

Good posts Toad and DC ... although Toad won't stop beating that talent drum.

DC, I don't know if one is available, but I think we should look to upgrade OG through FA. Otherwise, the unit is coming together nicely. And dare I say that Schwartz has climbed that steep learning curve rather quickly.

The team has talent. We need to grow and develop it. We need some consitency for once. We are all down on Shurmur, but I could live with him staying HC but turning over play calling duties to Childress.

If we end up with the first pick, I hope we trade it for more picks. Fill in some of the gaps on the team.

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This season for me is all abou the 2nd half of the schedule....we'll learn a lot about those guys when we ask them to play and win despite a terrible record

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And now you Dawgs know why I began this thread at this point in the season. We now have something of a baseline, and enough games ahead of us to track progress.

Thanks for all the submissions, Dawgs- and keep'em comin' !

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Schwartz: held up pretty well all game long. I know he's been trashed in past weeks, but a lineman is doing his job when : 1. The QB's jersey stays reasonably free of grass stains 2. The yellow flags aren't flying with your number attached to them. Progress? I sure hope so.

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Pre Season I was horrified watching this kid pass block and thought " Uh Oh look at that footwork " but he has been showing signs that maybe he can anchor the right side in the future .

Struggled in preseason but Schwartz has played very well and he and Lauvao are starting to develop some chemistry. I dont believe the kid has given up a sack yet. The play against the Ravens where there was miscommunication and he was left with 2 defenders and he blocked both of them well enough to allow Weeden time to get the ball off.

He has improved. According to Pro Football Weekly, he's allowed 2.5 sacks. Not too bad for a rook who's seeing some of the league's better pass rushers.

This comment is very critical and very harsh. I will apologize to no one for making it. I feel it is highly substantiated.

I can't for the life of me see any progress in our team. SSDD in Cleveland. We still have an absentee owner and this year team ownership is still in limbo. The results of this year's draft are still left to be determined. Holmgren is preparing his exit strategy but choice or as determined by the club. The epitaph for the club this year is, "They wanted to much for RGIII." Considering the value we have received for the past 13 drafts (except for Joe Thomas), and considering our history, what did we have to lose by giving away this year and next?

The glass is completely empty for me. I see no improvement what so ever and have little hopes of seeing any improvement within the next several years (if any).

The Cleveland Browns are not fielding a professional team and I'm convinced, as evidenced by my complaint with the Better Business Bureau and the conversation I've had with A tream representative (obviously, strictly a PR staff member) that the Cleveland Browns as a professional football business are not making a good faith effort to put an NFL quality professional football team on the field. Period.

I now know why Colt McCoy has so many fans. Half the Browns fan base seem to be just as big of a stat whore as he is.

I don't see 0-5 as progress. There is improvement in the team, but until those improvements translate into wins, it's hard to see progression in this team.

he gave up 1 to Mario Williams and I think 1 to Jason Babin, right? Not sure where the other half sack came from.

I don't think it is "That bad" Dean.

Listen we have some good parts to work with (Thomas, Mack, Trich, Haden, Winn, Hughes, Taylor, Robertson, Gordon, Benjamin, Norwood, Jordan, Ogbonnaya, Schwartz, Ward, Rubin, and Gocong/Johnson)

We have pretty good parts in place. The Qb Weeden, the jury is still out.(i prefer McCoy right now because i believe he gives us the best chance to win in the present time) BUT There is no doubt That Brandon Weeden has a huge arm and has the talent to be a NFL QB IF he can learn to make better decisions with the football.

right now the Browns need in order:

1. a Left Guard - Pinkston has to go...he is a liability in the running game, he is average as a pass blocker, but he can't move anyone in the running game at all. NEEDS AN UPGRADE

2. a Right-Guard - Lavaou just gets beat like a drum out there...he has terrible footwork and he can't open holes in the running game, at least he gets in someones way and thats not say much. NEEDS AN UPGRADE

3. Free Safety - We need an upgrade here in the worst way....even more then another corner opposite of Haden...an upgrade at Free Safety would make Patterson/Brown look much better then they are...we need an upgrade here in the worst way...

4. WR - We need a big time WR....i wouldn't be against the Browns using their 1st rder on a WR this year. We need talent at that position, we need a Braylon Edwards type receiver that can catch...a guy that can be the ACE of this receiving core.

We upgrade those 4 positions and not changes coaches or anything, and we win 10 games next year.

i look for the Browns to add a few guys out of FA this coming offseason along with the draft to fix these issues, Haslan seems very adamant about adding a few more parts...the difference between a 12-4 team and a 4-12 team is very small in the NFL...we fix those 4 positions this offseason (which is doable) and we may be knocking on the door of the playoffs.

I do see Weeden getting more comfortable out there. He definitely has the tools to be a very good QB.

One thing that people aren't mentioning is that he's leaving a lot of plays and a lot of yards on the field right now.

I look at a guy like Peyton Manning. He's reacting to the defense and not only killing the first play option but he's adjusting the progressions on defined plays. Weeden is in WCO101 and he's going through the play's standard progressions regardless of defensive alignment.

I see a lot of open guys running around...and guys that will be open based on the presnap information. Weeden appears to be disregarding this information or not processing it correctly...or maybe Shurmur is dictating that he doesn't. I'm starting to really dislike Shurmur. He's letting this team down but that's for another post.

The other thing that Weeden is not doing is throwing his receivers open. Weeden is seeing a lot of single high Cover 3 and Cover 1. Why? Because teams realize that Richardson is the key to stopping our offense. Playing against a single deep safety you can manipulate that guy post snap. I've seen him do this a little bit. That's progress. Baby steps. But the other point is that on guy cannot effectively cover a 53.3 yards wide and 30 yards long rectangle. You can throw WRs open depending on coverage. And Weeden is not doing that at all.

Weeden is a good project IMO. But he's not there yet and won't be for a while. As long as we see steady improvement I'm ok with this.

agreed. WFNY had a breakdown of the Ravens game for the first few offensive plays.

it really demonstrated how Baltimore was giving us some easy pre-snap reads and we did not adjust our plays to them (first play we ran up into the heart of the defense when they were giving us the right side. second play they were giving us the first down if we switched the right-side WR to a quick 5yd out as the CB was at least 12yds off him).

free yards and easy plays are ones that we have to recognize and take.