DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum RDE: The triumvirate of Rucker, Parker, and Stephens

The RDE position was a trainwreck last year for this team, as Heckert's fix for the problem was Jayme Mitchell. His response to that mistake was to field a 3-man rotation of Frostee Rucker, Juqua Parker, and Emmanuel Stephens. So what have they done for this team through five games?

I'd be willing to bet that a large number of fans weren't even aware that Stephens played meaningful reps. I can say I've been surprised by it. Once the surprise wore off, something else set it:

Disappointment.

Such a feeling occurred for two reasons...

First, I'm a numbers guy. I play more by the book than others, and pick and choose when I go against the grain. When I see that we're giving meaningful reps to a guy that went undrafted in 2010, was signed and later released by the Falcons, then picked up by the Browns, well, that doesn't exactly give me the warm fuzzies.

Second, if this player is getting reps, it means that the guys in front of him are not doing anything meaningful.

Dj and I have had a running feud about Rucker and Parker going back to when they were signed I felt that these two weren't much of an upgrade over the nothing we had in 2011, while I was assured they'd be adequate

I believe a sample of 5 games isn't a big enough sample to wholly evaluate a player or a unit. However, it becomes fair to evaluate the unit to this point in the season.

Rucker got a 5-year deal stated at $20+ million, with the key numbers being $8 million guaranteed including a $5 million signing bonus. Keeping in mind that assists are also counted towards tackle totals, Rucker has given us 15 tackles and 1.0 sacks.

Juqua Parker got a 1-year deal for $3 million. He has given us 5 tackles and 1.0 sacks.

Stephens is making $465k. He has given us 5 tackles and 0 sacks.

So the combination of the three have given us 25 tackles and 2.0 sacks.

Projections for a 16-game season give us the following stats for the RDE position:

Rucker: 48 tackles with 3 sacks
Parker: 16 tackles with 3 sacks
Stephens: 16 tackles with 0 sacks

Grand total: 80 tackles and 6.4 sacks with an estimated cost of $6.5 million.

I've gone back to watch the games I've had taped. On far too many plays our DE's were neutralized by a lone blocker on run-plays. The sickening part is that on numerous occasions our DE was neutralized...by a TE. In fact, Bennet was blocking Parker when Bradshaw broke off that 45-yard run in the Giants game. Now of the three, Parker did have what I'd call a couple of QB-pressures and showed he can still get to the QB some. He won't give us much more, but he'll get a few sacks.. Rucker, on the other hand, showed zero rush movement. Stephens was more active than Rucker as well but it's easy to see why he went undrafted.

That's what I see from these three. I know Dj will mention the Ravens game, but you have to question how much gas a team has in the tank when they are playing their 4th game in just two-and-a-half weeks. They looked very tired to me, as they couldn't run more than a couple of no-huddle's before they were totally gassed. Even so, not discounting the Ravens game still leads us right to where we are now, and now says we rank 26th in the league against the rush, allowing 4.7 yards per attempt. That's tied for 5th worst in the league on 150 attempts which is 8th most in the league.

Looking at the three, I honestly feel as though Rucker is under-performing, at least compared to his contract. Parker is just a rusher while being a huge liability against the run. Stephens has a little bit of a motor but he doesn't do anything particularly well. He's sort of the combination of Parker and Rucker.

I wonder if I'm the only one who feels as though Heckert has again failed to adequately address the position. While they are not wholly to blame for where we rank in terms of defense, I say they aren't producing at a level good enough to say they are on par with the rest of the league. Thus, I feel they are a big problem, and that we've got to go find someone in the off-season.

It's my opinion that Rucker's contract is ultimately going to be judged as a big failure. Parker probably won't be back at age 35, and who knows what we'll end up doing with someone like Stephens. What I do know is that we either have to draft a guy high or go spend some money in free agency, because the RDE position is not producing on an acceptable level. They are part of the problem.

Well Toad, I always said they're a stop gap solution and I still say they're the best possible stop gap solution we could have signed in FA

As often with you, you fail to mention the alternatives...should we have drafted a DE Top 5 instead of TRich? late 1st instead of Weeden? Early 2nd instead of Schwartz? Who? and what would have been your solutions to those positions then? I liked Orakpo back in the 2009 draft, but we have Mack now and that ship has sailed before Heckert took over

Remember Ray Edwards? The "best" DE on the market last offseason? The one eveyone on here wanted desperately? The one that got a 5y 30mil contract (and that was BEFORE the slice of pie got bigger for the players with the new CBA)? Remember him? He has a whopping 3.5 sacks in 20 starts for Atlanta...and he has Abraham on the other side...would you have liked signing him?

What about Mario Williams? The 15mil/year DE that has 1.5 sacks and 9-2 Tackles through 5 games (against us I might add, when Schwartz was still struggling..so 1.5 sacks in 1 game vs a rook RT, Im impressed)...what's his projected line? 30sthg tackles, 6 sacks, right? Hmm...

So tell me numbers guy...what are your alternatives and what other stop gap solution is playing better than the trio you're trashing?

As I see it, the trio is an upgrade over Mitchell (I know, not hard, but upgrade is upgrade), so if we went from horrible to below AVG/bad, that's an upgrade at that
position

Also, you take it for granted that he hit on Sheard...do you realize how hard it is to find a 3 down DE outside the 1st round? Seattle just drafted a pure situational pass rusher in Irvin in the middle of round 1 last draft...the bust percentage on DEs is extremely high (remember all those Top 50 busts? Anderson, Adams, Maybin, Morgan, Hughes, English, Merling, E.Brown, Harvey, L.Jackson, Balmer, J.Moss, Gholston....)...you act as if finding a good DE is easy...Heckert had NO 4-3 DE when he took over and he hit on an early 2nd rounder, that's a pretty good start

It's easy to armchair GM but the truth is we had like 15+ starters missing when Heckert took over, actually 18 as only LT, C, 1xDT and MLB were fine...the rest was an old, slow footed mess Heckert inherited from Uncle Eric...so with only 3 drafts and 2-3 premium picks per draft and DE being a position with little premium talent hitting the market...tell me how to address ALL those needs with 3 drafts and poor FA options without mixing in some stop gap solutions...you're the numbers guy, I can't wait for the math

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I say they aren't producing at a level good enough to say they are on par with the rest of the league.

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We are 0-5. It doesn't take Sheldon and Leonard to know that we must have a lot of positions that are not producing at a level good enough to say they are on par with the rest of the league.

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Rucker has given us 15 tackles and 1.0 sacks.

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Julius Peppers has 10 tackles and 2.5 sacks for $15 million a year. His rotational partner Shea McClellin has 5 tackles and 2 sacks... They extrapolate out to 48 tackles and 14 sacks.. so they barely have half as many tackles but they have twice as many sacks... for almost 3 times as much money. Just food for thought for the numbers guy.

Parker I've seen spelling Sheard on the left side more than the right.

Not sure what you mean by being "surprised" Stephens has gotten reps.

Rucker is such a clear upgrade at RDE over Mitchell it's not even close.

This really wasn't a great draft for DEs... I liked Mercilus and Cam Johnson (by my strict big board we would have drafted him in the 4th, maybe the 5th depending on what happened with our second first rounder... he's done nothing so far). Curry I liked OK but I wouldn't have taken him over Cordy Glenn or Lavonte David or Brandon Boykin or Alshon Jeffrey or even Mitchell Schwartz, Brandon Taylor, or Ron Brooks.

Sure, I would have loved to get Mario Williams, but we didn't. It is a bummer to me. Williams likes to work on the left side, though, and we don't want Sheard on the right side, so that probably would have swayed Williams to Buffalo over Cleveland anyways. Mark Anderson only agreed to go to Buffalo after Williams signed with them, and we don't have the same kind of draw.

So what would you have done this past offseason at RE? I missed that part of your post.

*edit* Oh yeah, and Benard was supposed to be the RE pass rusher, so there's that, too. I had forgotten about him until seeing the post about his being waived.

I totally agree that the RDE spot has been a huge hole for basically a decade. The problem is, what is the solution? What could we have done this past offseason?

This offseason ... what do we do? I really like Clowney and Mingo ... but do we spend a high pick like that on another DE? Do we deem them to be "good fits"? Who will be available in free agency?

I recognize the problem, but have no solution.

Clowney is a true sophomore... not draft eligible until 2014.

I said way back months ago that bringing in Parker and Rucker were over rated moves on this board.
Parker had 1 sack and 10 tackles as a Eagle in 2011.
But because genuis Heckert signs him,its percieved as a great find in FA.
But some people forgot he's 53 years old and was never a productive DE.
I said Frostee Rucker benefited from playing beside a dominant DT in Geno Atkins.
Atkins draws so many double teams,someone had to benefit.
Atkins is so quick in penetration,he funneled the ball carrier toward Rucker.
I'm with you Overtoad, Heckert did not address one of the more important positions on defense that is imperative in putting the QB on the ground.
Rucker and Parker are career backups.
Cincy was able to shutdown Bush and MJD fine without Rucker.
Rucker had one above average season in 5 as a Bengal. Yet genius Heckert throws a boatload of $$$$ at him.
If he was all that,how come the Bengals did offer him that kind of $$$?
everyone is a apologist for Heckert..."oh this that, there wasn't alot to choose from"
RDE is one spot you don't go bargin bin shopping on talent wise.
this game is about your QB getting the ball to his playmakers and putting the QB on the turf.

Yo Mr Grass is greener...so let us hear your solution?

Dang I thought he was a Junior. Maybe we'll just tank another season and draft him in the top 5 in 2014.

So what was your solution again?

well to start over paying for 2 career backups would not be part of my plan.

Still not a plan. What would you have done? Paid less for lesser talent just to pay less?

I would drafted a RDE and pursued someone like Andre Carter. A high production low cost player.
Chandler Jones would have been a perfect fit.
there were 2 pressing needs for this team last year and those 2 areas are still struggling this year...a WR that can blow the lid off secondaries and a pass rusher off the right side.

If we got Chandler Jones, then who don't we draft? And then what do we do about the position that we didn't draft?

I understand that we have a lot of holes, but it also is impossible to fill them all unless you really strike gold with your late picks.

I would have chosen Nick Perry over Weeden myself but I digress

You might be right about RDE (as Django pointed out, we clearly stop-gapped that postion this off-season), but the jury is still out on WR. Despite our crappy record, we've seen both Benjamin and Gordon do exactly what you've suggested we need. We just need to see a little more of that going forward to determine if we can check that particular box off.

and last week we saw Norwood take care of the underneath stuff

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so, if those were our pressing needs does that mean you would have drafted DE and WR over Richardson and Weeden?

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That is the question isn't it? Would we be better or would be in a position to be better long term with Justin Blackmon and Mercilus or Perry? than we are with Richardson and Weeden? Hard to say....

Weird...I was about to post, and everything that I was thinking...as I thought about it debunked it.

Buffalo and NYG gashed us...Two good OLs (not the Bills now with the injuries). We handled the two OLs in our division.

IDK...I think Rucker is fine. Parker is eh, and Stephens is depth. Stephens is good depth, not a guy I'd move, he's young with a high motor. Let him stay. Parker will move on, and hopefully we can get it done.

I will say the Giants...and I think the Bills too, gashed us most going at Rubin and Sheard...

Andre Carter? lol

So Parker is 53yo but Carter would be a good signing? The Andre Carter that hasn't played a snap yet and was injured to start the season? Yeah, he would have helped us

I liked C.Jones (not so much Perry)...but you do realize that Jones went right before the Weeden pick, do you? So tell me Mr Storm how and when you would have drafted C.Jones? You throw names out there in full hindsight mode, which is stupid enoug a game to play but you don't even know how to get them or how to fill the other needs left open then (QB anyone?)....

You sound like an angry kid who wants all the candy in the shop and cries....Toad's the aristrocratic kid version, who filters the crying into "I'm not amused"

I would have stuck it out with McCoy one more season. Would want to see what I had in him with a full off season and and actually upgrade the talent around him.
the Browns weren't going to the playoffs probally anyhow in 2012 so why not McCoy?
Weeden was a desperation pick by a desperate organization.
BTW, Andre Carter's resume is 10x better than Parker's.
The Browns defense is being gashed cause Heckert hasn't added any true game changers or difference makers.
its a very average defense that is lacking dynamics.

If the Browns weren't going to make the POs anyhow, why moan about the record in every 2nd post? Look at progress and development of the young roster...

Hard to see progress when a team continues to lose

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As often with you, you fail to mention the alternatives..

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And as I always say...it isn't my job to find alternatives. I don't get paid the biggest bucks on the planet to make the big-boy decisions, but since you asked, over the last few years since Heckert has been here, there have been several guys we could have spent money on instead of bargain-bin shopping.

Here's a few names which you will undoubtedly dissect in order to show that they weren't viable players. The only problem with that is you cannot point to a players history with his new team and say "See, he got hurt, which proves he wouldn't have been a good signing" because what happens to a player on one team isn't what would have happened to that player somewhere else.

That's where arm-chair GM'ing falls flat on it's face, and why I don't ever do it.

Andre Carter is the perfect example of that.

Hell, he could have signed here and been killed by a falling piece of the Space Station, or he could have not injured his quad and continued to play at a high level. But he was available before he was injured and has proven he can still produce.

Kyle Vanden Bosch could have been signed as well, and as all fans know he's a very good player.

So that's two. All it takes is one. All fans should know that in the NFL it's the money that talks. If you pony up the money, you get to sign the player.

I wonder if there are any more. Don't really need to identify more because either of those two would have been a good addition, but...

Dwan Edwards was an under-the-radar name from the Rats who signed with the Bills, then the Panthers this year. He is stout against the run, far more than Rucker.

Then there was Kiwanuka, who was a free agent in 2010. He proved he was fine as he wracked up 84 tackles. Again, that isn't to say he would have done that here, but he did prove he still had the ability.

How many are we up to? 5?

He would have cost big money, but Charles Johnson was out there, who was coming off a 9-sack year and has 3.5 this year.

That's 6.

Or we could have had Jason Babin. All he did was put up 30.5 sacks in 2010 and 2011. He could have been had either year.

That's 7.

Jeremy Mincey was out there this past off-season after recording 8 sacks for the Jags.

That's 8.

John Abraham was out there and gave the Falcons 9.5 sacks last year.

That's 9.

So don't try and tell people that we didn't have options. I just gave you 9, and could find more if I decided to dig more.

I don't know how much Heckert had his hands restrained by Holmgren, so as I've said before I can't judge him based on the moves. My POINT is that while we've had plenty of cap space to get help, we've elected to bargain-bin shopping and plugged in spare parts.

The results have been predictable, and are a big reason why we're THE worst team in the league right now.

The bigger point goes beyond Heckert. This thing doesn't have his finger-prints all over it. Had Holmgren not made a bad move in keeping Mangini and his 3-4 we could have signed some of these guys then. But he didn't, so we couldn't.

Again, we've had plenty of options. What we do know is that our attempts to fix the position in 2011 failed, and so far this year it's failing as well. Someone will end up answering for this, as they should.

not a big disagreement. But, its there because we're not losing games the same way.

Last year we lost the same way every game. Score very little, dont move the ball well for the same reasons (couldnt run, couldnt test anyone deep...keep the D within 10 yards of the LOS and we were suffocated) more so, our D would face 80-90 snaps and we couldnt get off the field.

This year theres been plenty of different ways we've lost. Bad pass D against Cincy, bad total D against the GMen, horrible O against Philly, lifelessness against Buffalo, timely mistakes against Bal (plus Boldin/Torrey Smith)...

Theres no consistent theme, which means that theyre changing and theres things to fix. Not just one consistent unovercomeable (is that a word?...or can it be?) problem EVERY week.

I think Mercielus was sitting there at 21 as well, he went to the Texans at 25.

I would have not been disappointed if we had picked up a DE with that pick, and waited for Weeden at 37...

Most of your "options" are well over 30 and would have cost well over 5mil/season for 3-4 more years....YOU would have been the 1st on here to trash that kind of signing as it would have been ALSO a stop gap move with future contamination of the cap. Why "invest" in an aging and declining vet when your team is 2-3 years removed from PO contention?

C.Johnson was the only viable option in his prime and he got 12mil/season after showing up in his contract season while doing next to nothing in his 1st 3 seasons (10 sacks combined)...and I remember well that he was a boom or bust reputation prospect...you give a guy like that 76mil over 6 years with 32mil guaranteed?

Kiwanuka has done nothing since 2008, he has 10.5 sacks in 3 1/3 seasons since...you know how many sacks J.Parker has in that time span? 16.5...in fact he has better pressure stats than most of your "names" on that list...if we would have signed another vet stop gap Parker would have made your list too, lol

Dwan Edwards is a DT btw and you added an "alternative" somewhere too as I count only 8 names and 1 of them isn't a DE...over 3 offseason of digging btw and most are underwhelming right now...C.Johnson is pretty much the only option in 3 offseasons and he took a monster deal from the team that drafted him...and btw, we WERE interested

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/78077...s-but-what-next

With the NFL lockout finally over and teams looking to fill roster needs before training camps begin this weekend, a frenzied run on free agents has begun.

The Carolina Panthers quickly locked down their most prized free agent, defensive end Charles Johnson, signing him to a six-year, $72 million deal Tuesday afternoon.

The 25-year-old Johnson, who had a breakout season in 2010 with 11.5 sacks, was one of the premier free agents in this year's class, attracting serious attention from the Atlanta Falcons, the Cleveland Browns and a number of other teams.

You actually PROVE my point with your "list of alternatives" over 3 offseasons....slim pickings

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Most of your "options" are well over 30 and would have cost well over 5mil/season for 3-4 more years...

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You mean like 35-year old Juqua Parker who costs $3 million per year? Who will be gone after this year, which means we'll again have to either draft a guy high, go bargain-bin shopping yet again, or actually have to spend big bucks on a free agent?

Wash, rinse, repeat...without an actual long-term answer at the position. Just a spare part.

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YOU would have been the 1st on here to trash that kind of signing as it would have been ALSO a stop gap move with future contamination of the cap.

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You have this innate ability to read my mind.

Too bad you always read it wrong.

But more on that in a moment...

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Why "invest" in an aging and declining vet when your team is 2-3 years removed from PO contention?

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Oh...I dunno...to win games, maybe?

See, that's where your mind-reading always goes askew. During free agency I was BEGGING the organization to spend some damned money. I don't care if we signed some 32-year old guy to a 3-year deal. We HAVE the cap space, as there aren't any aging vets on the roster who are going to wreck our cap going forward.

The bottom line is we had TONS of options and didn't go after them at any point over the last few years. We went bargain-bin shopping and have had predictable results. Whether it was Holmgren pulling the strings or Heckert's master-plan I cannot say, but it's failed.

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You actually PROVE my point with your "list of alternatives" over 3 offseasons....slim pickings

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8 or 9 options are "slim pickings?"

We're an 0-5 team because while we opted to build through the draft after blowing it totally in 2010 by keeping a bunch of failed people in place, we haven't bothered to sign any impactful free agents, just a bunch of spare-parts and role-players. That's fine if you already HAVE impactful people in place, but we didn't.

Sure, Parker will get a couple more sacks, and Rucker will make a play or two and a few posters will crow about how he was a steal, but when the season is over, the production from the RDE position is going to yield well-below average sack numbers while contributing to what's going to be a porous run-defense yet again.

5 games in, that's 2 sacks and we rank 26th in the league against the run.

Been there, done that, put the T-shirt up on Ebay but nobody is buying because they already have that T-shirt from any number of recent years past...

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and you're for real with Andre Carter? Go meet your new friend Kendall Storm, lol...Carter was injured before the season, that's why nobody signed him...

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And the year before? When the Pats signed him and he went off?

Again, just because a player gets injured on one team doesn't mean he's going to get injured were he on another team. You cannot predict that Carter would have been injured here. We could have signed him instead of Jayme Mitchell.

Now let's go ahead and reduce the number to 7. Hell, let's reduce it to 5.

Bottom line: We had plenty of options and have chosen poorly not once in 2010, not twice in 2011, but a third time in 2012.

I've said my peace and made my case. I proved we had options. We went with what we see now. That's 2 sacks and very little against the run.

Color that however you want, Dj, but suck is suck.

Jesus

Then prove to me where "your options" are playing better than Rucker/Parker, that's been my point of the last post you've evaded...Kiwa isn't, vdBosch isn't...the "options" should be better, shouldn't they? or did you just throw out "big" names looking over the FA lists of the past 3 seasons?

Except for Johnson none is trumping your virtual season stat line for Rucker/Parker/Stephens, so tell me how they would have helped us

edit: I hope this thread makes it to season's end...it's gonna be a fun one

No threads on this board last forever.

Again, and again, and I guess again...pointing at what other players do on other teams doesn't indicate what they would have done on this team.

Remember how badly you trash "armchair GM'ing"...that's exactly what you're doing.

So...again...it isn't my job or your job to make the calls. It's the team executives. All we can do is judge the end-results. So, after 5 games, is the RDE position a success?

Hardly. *shrug* Color that however you want to man.

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All we can do is judge the end-results. So, after 5 games, is the RDE position a success?

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He can't prove it's a success... you can't prove it would have been any more successful had we gone a different route.... I love these arguments where two people dig their heels in and fight about a hypothetical. As you were.

Nope. I'm not assuming that other players would have done better. All I did was refute what Dj claimed, which was that we didn't have any other options.

A subtle, but big difference.

My entire point has been that we elected to go the Mitchell route last year, then what we have this year. In both cases, the results have been unacceptable. And lastly, that it isn't my job or your job or even Dj's job to say what they should have done. That job belongs to Holmgren and Heckert.

That's all?

Your argument is "there were other options"? Well, lol then, because that's pretty much true for any underperforming unit on every NFL team

You then gave us the expected season line of Rucker/Parker/Stephens and a bunch of less than stellar "options"....when I hinted at the fact that none of the viable "options" is outperforming our guys (and are more expensive) you pull rhetoric 101 and call it hypothetical, as we don't know what wouldhave happened if a sack of rice in China falls...as DC pointed out...if you revert to this trick, then your whole post and premise goes to hell with it too...pick your poison...or a standpoint for once