Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
O
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
web page

Lance Armstrong said he wanted to see the names of his accusers. The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency gave him 26, including 11 ex-teammates.

bracket
LATEST ON LANCE

Teammates testified vs. Armstrong

The world's most famous cyclist said he wanted to see the hard evidence that he was a doper. The agency gave him that, too: About 200 pages filled with vivid details - from the hotel rooms riders transformed into makeshift blood-transfusion centers to the way Armstrong's ex-wife rolled cortisone pills into foil and handed them out to all the cyclists.

In all, a USADA report released Wednesday gives the most detailed, unflinching portrayal yet of Armstrong as a man who, day after day, week after week, year after year, spared no expense - financially, emotionally or physically - to win the seven Tour de France titles that the anti-doping agency has ordered taken away.

It presents as matter-of-fact reality that winning and doping went hand in hand in cycling and that Armstrong was the focal point of a big operation, running teams that were the best at getting it done without getting caught. Armstrong won the Tour as leader of the U.S. Postal Service team from 1999-2004 and again in 2005 with the Discovery Channel as the primary sponsor.

USADA said the path Armstrong chose to pursue his goals ''ran far outside the rules.''

It accuses him of depending on performance-enhancing drugs to fuel his victories and ''more ruthlessly, to expect and to require that his teammates'' do the same. Among the 11 former teammates who testified against Armstrong are George Hincapie, Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis.

USADA Chief Executive Travis Tygart said the cyclists were part of ''the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.''

Armstrong did not fight the USADA charges, but insists he never cheated.

His attorney, Tim Herman, called the report ''a one-sided hatchet job - a taxpayer funded tabloid piece rehashing old, disproved, unreliable allegations based largely on axe-grinders, serial perjurers, coerced testimony, sweetheart deals and threat-induced stories.''

Aware of the criticism his agency has faced from Armstrong and his legion of followers, Tygart insisted his group handled this case under the same rules as any other. Armstrong was given the chance to take his case to arbitration and declined, choosing in August to accept the sanctions instead, he noted.

''We focused solely on finding the truth without being influenced by celebrity or non-celebrity, threats, personal attacks or political pressure because that is what clean athletes deserve and demand,'' Tygart said.

The report called the evidence ''as strong or stronger than any case brought in USADA's 12 years of existence.''

In a letter sent to USADA attorneys Tuesday, Herman dismissed any evidence provided by Landis and Hamilton, saying the riders are ''serial perjurers and have told diametrically contradictory stories under oath.''

The testimony of Hincapie, one of Armstrong's closest and most loyal teammates through the years, was one of the report's new revelations.

''I would have been much more comfortable talking only about myself, but understood that I was obligated to tell the truth about everything I knew. So that is what I did,'' Hincapie said of his testimony to federal investigators and USADA.


His two-page statement did not mention Armstrong by name. Neither did statements from three other teammates-turned-witnesses, all of whom said this was a difficult-but-necessary process.

Lance Armstrong
LOOKING BACK
Lance Armstrong's career highlights may be tainted, but they're still worth remembering.

''I have failed and I have succeeded in one of the most humbling sports in the world,'' Christian Vande Velde said. ''And today is the most humbling moment of my life.''

Tygart said evidence from 26 people, including 15 riders with knowledge of the U.S. Postal Service team's doping activities, provided material for the report. The agency also interviewed Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie. Andreu's wife, Betsy, was another key witness. She has been one of Armstrong's most consistent and unapologetic critics.

''It took tremendous courage for the riders on the USPS Team and others to come forward and speak truthfully,'' Tygart said.

In some ways, the USADA report simply pulls together and amplifies allegations that have followed Armstrong ever since he beat cancer and won the Tour for the first time. At various times and in different forums, Landis, Hamilton and others have said that Armstrong encouraged doping on his team and used banned substances himself.

Written in a more conversational style than a typical legal document, the report lays out in chronological order, starting in 1998 and running through 2009:

- Multiple examples of Armstrong using multiple drugs, including the blood-boosting hormone EPO, citing the ''clear finding'' of EPO in six blood samples from the 1999 Tour de France that were retested.
UCI concluded those samples were mishandled and couldn't be used to prove anything. In bringing up the samples, USADA said it considers them corroborating evidence that isn't even necessary given the testimony of its witnesses.

- Testimony from Hamilton, Landis and Hincapie, all of whom say they received EPO from Armstrong.

- Evidence of the pressure Armstrong put on the riders to go along with the doping program.

''The conversation left me with no question that I was in the doghouse and that the only way forward with Armstrong's team was to get fully on Dr. Ferrari's doping program,'' Vande Velde testified.


- What Vaughters called ''an outstanding early warning system regarding drug tests.'' One example came in 2000, when Hincapie found out there were drug testers at the hotel where Armstrong's team was staying. Aware Armstrong had taken testosterone before the race, Hincapie alerted him and Armstrong dropped out of the race to avoid being tested, the report said.


Though she didn't testify, Armstrong's ex-wife, Kristin, is mentioned 30 times in the report.

In one episode, Armstrong asks her to wrap banned cortisone pills in foil to hand out to his teammates.

''Kristin obliged Armstrong's request by wrapping the pills and handing them to the riders. One of the riders remarked, `Lance's wife is rolling joints,''' the report read. Attempts to reach Kristin Armstrong were unsuccessful.

While the arguments about Armstrong will continue among sports fans - and there is still a question of whether USADA or the International Cycling Union (UCI) has the ultimate authority to take away his Tour titles - the new report puts a cap on a long round of official investigations. Armstrong was cleared of criminal charges in February after a federal grand jury probe that lasted about two years.

UCI confirmed receiving the report and said it would respond to it soon, ''not to delay matters any longer than necessary.'' It has 21 days to appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

The head of the Lance Armstrong Foundation, Doug Ulman, lauded Armstrong's work as a cancer fighter. Armstrong won all his titles after overcoming testicular cancer.

''Our longstanding concerns about the impartiality and fairness of USADA's proceeding are compounded today,'' Ulman said. ''As a federal judge pointed out, USADA appears motivated more by publicity rather than fulfilling its mission.''

CHEAT SHEET
These athletes flouted the rules. Who's in this hall of shame?

Some of the newest information - never spelled out in detail before Wednesday - includes a depiction of Armstrong's continuing relationship with physician and training guru Michele Ferrari. Like Armstrong, Ferrari has received a lifetime ban from USADA.

Long thought of as the mastermind of Armstrong's alleged doping plan, Ferrari was investigated in Italy and Armstrong claimed he had cut ties with the doctor after a 2004 conviction. USADA cites financial records that show payments of at least $210,000 in the two years after that. It cited emails from 2009 showing Armstrong asking Ferrari's son if he could make a $25,000 cash payment the next time they saw each other.


''The repeated efforts by Armstrong and his representatives to mischaracterize and minimize Armstrong's relationship with Ferrari are indicative of the true nature of that relationship,'' the report states. ''If there is not something to hide, there is no need to hide it and certainly no need to repeatedly lie about it.''


In addition to Armstrong and Ferrari, another player in the Postal team circle, Dr. Luis Garcia del Moral, also received a lifetime ban as part of the case.

Three other members of the USPS team will take their cases to arbitration. They are team director Johan Bruyneel, team doctor Pedro Celaya and team trainer Jose ''Pepe'' Marti.

Armstrong chose not to pursue the case and instead accepted the sanction, though he has consistently argued that the USADA system was rigged against him, calling the agency's effort a ''witch hunt'' that used special rules it doesn't follow in all its other cases.

Sworn affidavits from Hincapie and several others, included in the agency's report, were dated after Aug. 23, when Armstrong announced he would not fight the charges. The affidavits were dated as such, USADA said, because lawyers originally thought those witnesses would present their testimony live at an arbitration hearing.

The report also went to the World Anti-Doping Agency, which also has the right to appeal, but so far has supported USADA's position in the Armstrong case.

''We would like to commend USADA for having the courage and the resolve to keep focused in working on this difficult case for the sake of clean athletes and the integrity of sport,'' WADA President John Fahey said.

ASO, the company that runs the Tour de France and could have a say in where Armstrong's titles eventually go, said it has ''no particular comment to make on this subject.''

I'm very interested to see the rest of the details when they are released. When people loyal to Armstrong throw him under the bus, there just isn't much more left for Armstrong to do but bow his head and walk away...


***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
O
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Yahoo sports USADA report reveals Lance Armstrong as the greatest fraud in American sports
7 hours ago

Email

Officially, Jose "Pepe" Marti was listed as trainer for the Postal Service cycling team. But those on the team knew him as "The Courier."

Lance Armstrong carries the U.S. flag during a victory parade after winning his seventh Tour de France. (AP)One day while chatting with Tyler Hamilton, Pepe told the Postal Service surrogate that he had to drive to Nice, France, to make a delivery. That night, at the Villa d'Este Restaurant in Nice, Pepe arrived to a late dinner that included Lance Armstrong and his then-wife, Kristin, as well as Betsy Andreu, wife of Postal rider Frankie Andreu. According to Betsy, the reason given for the late dinner was because Pepe was there to deliver EPO (erythropoietin, a banned hormone that controls red blood cell production) to Lance and it was safer for him to cross the border with illegal drugs at night.

After dinner was over, the Armstrongs drove Betsy home. At some point, she saw Pepe hand Lance a brown paper bag. As Armstrong opened the car door for Andreu, he smiled, held up the bag and said, "Liquid gold."

On another occasion, as the Armstrongs and Andreus drove to a bike race in Milan, Italy, Armstrong stopped at a hotel/gas station outside Milan to meet Dr. Michele Ferrari, now infamous for supplying cyclists with performance-enhancing drugs. When asked why they were meeting him in such an odd place, Armstrong replied, "So the [expletive] press doesn't hound him." Leaving the other three in the car, Armstrong disappeared into Ferrari's camper for about an hour. When he returned, Armstrong exclaimed, "My numbers are great!" – the insinuation being he wouldn't test positive for performance-enhancing drugs.

The next day, Betsy Andreu asked Kristin Armstrong about her feelings on EPO. Her answer: It's a necessary evil.

Just three months later, Lance Armstrong won the 1999 Tour de France.

All of this is according to the United States Anti-Doping Agency in a 202-page report which rips the sheen off Armstrong and exposes him as the greatest fraud in the history of American sports.

No one with an objective mind can deny the damning facts uncovered in what amounts to a Mount Everest of testimony from witness after witness, all of whom point to Armstrong as the godfather of a sophisticated doping scheme aimed to accomplish one thing: win the biggest bike race in the world.


Armstrong, through his attorney Timothy Herman, continues to maintain his innocence, claiming in a letter sent to USADA that the agency is biased against him and that some of the witnesses are "serial perjurers."

For that to be true, however, the conspiracy would have to be as sophisticated and calculated as the "alleged" doping program itself.

[Related: USADA's entire 202-page report]

From Armstrrong's comeback from cancer in 1998 through his seventh and final Tour de France victory in 2005, his former teammates claim he used EPO, testosterone, human growth hormone, cortisone and blood transfusions. Among those making the claims are Hamilton, Andreu, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis and Jonathan Vaughters.

While some of the information released in Tuesday's report isn't new, the scope of it is mind-boggling.

There's the story from the 1998 World Championships in which a drug tester randomly showed up at Armstrong's hotel. Fearing Armstrong's hematocrit – a measurement of red blood cell count that cyclists consider the number between winning and losing – would test too high and thus prompt a positive drug test, Dr. Pedro Celeya, Postal's principal team doctor, ran to his car, grabbed a liter of saline, hid it under his raincoat, snuck by the drug tester and into Armstrong's room, where he administered the saline to Armstrong.

There's the fascinating tale of Motoman, a personal assistant of Armstrong who became Postal's EPO delivery man during the '99 Tour. Fearful of keeping EPO on team buses, Postal used Motoman to deliver EPO-filled syringes after various stages of the tour. He'd ride his motorcycle along the Tour route, deliver the syringes, which Armstrong, Hamilton and Kevin Livingston would inject, often on the team bus just feet from the finish line. When they were done, they'd put the used syringes inside a Coke can for another team member to dump into a public trash can.

There's the time Armstrong, going out of town, asked Floyd Landis to stay at his home in Girona, Spain not to house sit, but to watch the blood in his refrigerator. If blood isn't kept at the right temperature, it goes bad, and Armstrong wanted Landis to make sure there was no electrical issue while he was away.

A few months later, six days into the 2003 Tour de France, Landis was called into one of the team doctor's rooms for a transfusion. When he entered the room, there were Armstrong, Hincapie and others already receiving their transfusions.

There's the story about Armstrong testing positive for EPO during the 2001 Tour du Suisse only to have the test covered up after he made a $100,000 donation to UCI; the one about Armstrong telling Christian Vande Velde he had to "use what Dr. Ferrari had been telling him to use" in order to keep his spot on the Postal team; and there's the one when the team bus "broke down" between stages of the 2004 Tour de France while riders, including Armstrong, sat on the bus receiving blood transfusions.

"[The report] is a sledgehammer," says Daniel Coyle. "It's so massive."

In 2004, Coyle moved to Spain to write a book about Armstrong's attempt at a sixth Tour de France victory. In August, he released The Secret Race, a book that reads like a spy novel as he and Hamilton detail the race behind the race that is cycling's doping subculture.

[Eleven teammates turn on Lance Armstrong]

What The Secret Race reveals and the USADA report confirms is that cyclists put as much effort into their doping regimens as they do their actual training, which is saying something considering they spend seven days a week on their bikes. Despite the fact that most competitive cyclists were doping, Coyle contends that didn't create a level playing field.

Lance Armstrong (R) and George Hincapie pose after the 2005 Tour de France. (Reuters)"The instinct fans have when they find out about cheating is everyone cheating levels the playing field. But when you look closely at this document and read the story Tyler tells in The Secret Race, you see the opposite is true. Doping distorts the playing field," he explained. "It transforms it from an athletic contest into a chess game of information and access. Who has the best doctor? Who has the best doctor exclusively if you're Lance? Who has the most guts? Who's willing to take the most risk?

"Lance was the guy with the best information, the most guts, the most risk tolerance and access to the best doctor. He won that contest seven years in a row. He didn't invent that culture, but he beat them all at that game."


USADA's report agrees, pointing out that Armstrong didn't act alone. However, it states, "the evidence is also clear that Armstrong had ultimate control over not only his own personal drug use, which was extensive, but also over the doping culture of his team. Final responsibility for decisions to hire and retain a director, doctors and other staff committed to running a team-wide doping program ultimately flowed to him."

In his letter to the USADA, Herman called the investigation a "farce" and insisted that "fair-minded people will see whatever USADA issues is far from a 'reasoned decision' and is instead further evidence of the vendetta by USADA and its talebearers seeking publicity by targeting Mr. Armstrong."

For that to bear out, fair-minded people would have to believe Hamilton corroborated with Betsy Andreu to concoct a story about Pepe driving to Nice on a random night in 1999; that Hincapie, Armstrong's self-described best friend in the peloton, is lying when he says Armstrong used his apartment for a blood transfusion; that 11 members of the Postal Service team used performance-enhancing drugs, but Armstrong wasn't one of them.

"Two years ago, I was approached by U.S. federal investigators, and more recently by USADA, and asked to tell of my personal experience in these matters," Hincapie said in a statement released Wednesday. "I would have been much more comfortable talking only about myself, but understood that I was obligated to tell the truth about everything I knew. So that is what I did."

Unlike his 11 teammates, Armstrong will maintain his innocence because he has the most to lose. He was the main target of a two-year federal investigation into possible doping crimes by the Postal team. In February, prosecutors closed that case. An admission now by Armstrong could impact the status of that investigation.

So the ruse will go on, if only inside Armstrong's head. For the rest of us, we now know a story that seemed too good to be true really was just that.



Ouch.


***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
A
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
A
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
ugly, ugly, ugly...

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Quote:




What The Secret Race reveals and the USADA report confirms is that cyclists put as much effort into their doping regimens as they do their actual training, which is saying something considering they spend seven days a week on their bikes. Despite the fact that most competitive cyclists were doping, Coyle contends that didn't create a level playing field. Lance Armstrong (R) and George Hincapie pose after the 2005 Tour de France. (Reuters)"The instinct fans have when they find out about cheating is everyone cheating levels the playing field. But when you look closely at this document and read the story Tyler tells in The Secret Race, you see the opposite is true. Doping distorts the playing field," he explained. "It transforms it from an athletic contest into a chess game of information and access. Who has the best doctor? Who has the best doctor exclusively if you're Lance? Who has the most guts? Who's willing to take the most risk?


What a load of crap. It absolutely created a level playing field.
So what if he had better information? That's like saying that he won unfairly because he had a better coach or worked harder, lol.


BTW, how much of a woody did you get being able to post this, Toad?
Man, it must feel good to validate your hatred.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
If this same info came out on on your average superstar athlete, 99% of the public would be ready to hang them in effigy. But since it's Lance "I beat cancer, I have raised millions to fight cancer and many others used my fight to fight their own health and mental battles" Armstrong, people don't want to believe it. And that's fine, I wouldn't want my hero dragged through the mud.

I just watched the "30 for 30" special on Ben Johnson (titled "9.79*"). Not only did it show that Ben Johnson was heavily on the juice.....but EVERYONE was. If you were a Track and Field athlete in the 70's and 80's, you were using. The testing was so behind the drugs that a 7-year old could figure out how to cheat them. And to be in the finals of any race, you had to be using or else you wouldn't be there. So our golden boy Carl Lewis, was a user too. I throught he was clean....but he wasn't. But that's what TnF was like back then (and still is to an extent).

So to me, people that use perfornamce enchancers aren't devils, they're just flawed human being looking for an edge. When they're caught, they get busted (mostly just a reputation hit). With every other athlete, it's a page 4 story and everyone accepts it. With Lance, as the evidence and witnesses come out, the defenders just defend his honor more and more. It's odd (again, probably based on who "Lance" means to people).

Oh well.


[Linked Image]


“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,882
P
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
P
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,882
Quote:

If this same info came out on on your average superstar athlete, 99% of the public would be ready to hang them in effigy. But since it's Lance "I beat cancer, I have raised millions to fight cancer and many others used my fight to fight their own health and mental battles" Armstrong, people don't want to believe it. And that's fine, I wouldn't want my hero dragged through the mud.




Could be that the general apathy is because its cycling. Lance or not. It's cycling... yawn. People would react stronger if it was their favorite sports star (or hated rival) being accused or stripped of their titles. How many people would list Lance as their favorite (or least favorite) athlete? Or even in their top 20? Lance's defenders I think defend him because he's American. If Lance we're French do you think you'd hear Americans coming to his defense regardless if he raised millions for cancer?
Think about the vitriol that would be spewed here if Ray Lewis were accused of similar allegations. Why? Because as Americans we are much more invested emotionally in the NFL.


[Linked Image]
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
C
Legend
Offline
Legend
C
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
I don't know if he did PED's or not. But it says something about Lance Armstrong that so many former teammates are willing to throw him under the bus and no one is defending him.

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
N
Legend
Offline
Legend
N
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
cmon, we all know that Ray Lewis (and most NFL players - especially older NFL players) are doping.

it's implicitly accepted. look at his age and how his career had a rebirth just a couple of seasons ago.

and, i'm not just saying that because he's a Raven. pretty sure that all teams are utilizing some form of doping and have been since at least the 70s.


#gmstrong
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
C
Legend
Offline
Legend
C
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
As they should. HGH, when taken properly, can be good for you.

If this were any other profession no one would have a problem with people taking harmless drugs to improve/extend their careers.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
My only real beef with any of it is that this was explicitly a witch hunt against Lance in that EVERY other athlete got only 6 month bans, but Lance gets a lifetime ban.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
O
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Quote:

BTW, how much of a woody did you get being able to post this, Toad?
Man, it must feel good to validate your hatred.


It's always nice to have validation for one's beliefs.

I've always applauded his humanitarian efforts, but they've always been tainted by his deceit. I just don't dig false idols.

He cheated his way to wins, and now those wins have been taken away. That's as it should be. Justice is served. That's all I was hoping for.

The fall of Lance Armstrong coinciding with the fall of the US Postal Service is irony at it's finest.


***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Quote:

That's all I was hoping for.



So hypothetically, if his wins go away, his reputation is shot and his endorsements go away.. and as a result, his humanitarian efforts go away, will you still claim that a victory?


yebat' Putin
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
O
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Quote:

My only real beef with any of it is that this was explicitly a witch hunt against Lance in that EVERY other athlete got only 6 month bans, but Lance gets a lifetime ban.




Purp, it was HIS program. He ran it. He implemented it. He enforced it. He was the CEO, the Scarface of the operation.

It would be akin to criminal to give anyone else less than what Armstrong got.

I know you dig Armstrong because of what he's overcome and because you are an avid cyclist. I won't trash cycling any more than I would trash another sport. We all have things we enjoy. Hell, I wouldn't trash any posters that stated they were heavily invested in knitting circles. To each their own. However, dude, how can you defend him?

I guess I just wanna understand why you're so going to bat for Armstrong in spite of the mountain of evidence against him...


***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887
Quote:

and now those wins have been taken away




Have they been taken away? I know the USADA said they want them taken away but isn't it up to the UCI? Bjarne Riis admitted he cheated to win in Tour in 1996 and all they did was put an asterisk by his name.


[Linked Image from mypsn.eu.playstation.com]
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
O
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Quote:

Quote:

That's all I was hoping for.



So hypothetically, if his wins go away, his reputation is shot and his endorsements go away.. and as a result, his humanitarian efforts go away, will you still claim that a victory?




His humanitarian efforts will never go away. While his cycling empire, one built on cheating, has crumbled, his fund-raising efforts will continue to go on and flourish.

All he's lost is his cycling reputation. Yet we are a world of second chances. If Armstrong would come out, admit what he did, and apologize, people would forgive him in a heartbeat. People WANT to believe in him. They will, especially in a sport where the best cheaters win, thinking, wrongly, that if most were doing it, then all should be forgiven.

It won't be a "victory" for me if his fund-raising stops. But I think we both know that won't happen. That is it's own industry and it's big business.


***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
I'm not going to bat for him, and I'm not an avid cyclist - per se - I'm a triathlete; that sport that Lance got into after he'd been retired from cycling for a few years and can no longer compete in.

Quote:

it was HIS program




1. The ENTIRE SPORT of cycling didn't bow to Lance and get all their dope from him.
2. Doping is doping. Extent doesn't matter. The ONLY reason that there is any sort of graduated justice is because those other guys were given short bans in exchange for testimony against Lance. ALL the USADA cared about was nailing Lance. *THAT* is what I'm against. If doping is an issue, then hammer ALL of the dopers, not just the one you dislike. They won't do that, though, because then there wouldn't be anyone left to race in the upcoming seasons.... and THAT is the problem with it.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
O
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Triathlete. I had it 1/3 right.

Ok, now I get what you're saying. However, is that really any different than cutting deals to lower-level criminals so that they will turn evidence against the big fish?

If you really want to affect change, you have to change the top, not the bottom. Even in retirement, Armstrong is still the face of cycling. Take him down and the sport stands a greater chance of being cleaned up.

I would have to say I agree with what they've done, even if on the surface it seems as though he took a bigger spanking than the rest.

When you won 7 races and you are THE preeminent person in the sport, then get caught cheating, you will always pay the biggest price.


***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
and he still never failed a drug test.

Amazing luck wouldn't you say?


#GMSTRONG
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Quote:

and he still never failed a drug test.

Amazing luck wouldn't you say?




Neither has Barry Bonds.


[Linked Image]


“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Quote:

My only real beef with any of it is that this was explicitly a witch hunt against Lance in that EVERY other athlete got only 6 month bans, but Lance gets a lifetime ban.




Maybe someone can confirm this, but it was also part of the charges that the USADA brought.......

Option 1 - Fight this and you can come out with everything

OR

Option 2 - Deny the fight and we'll erase your name from every trophy.

It was his choice not to fight (for whatever reason).


[Linked Image]


“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Quote:

Triathlete. I had it 1/3 right.

Ok, now I get what you're saying. However, is that really any different than cutting deals to lower-level criminals so that they will turn evidence against the big fish?





And I dislike the living hell out of that, too.
It's either wrong, or it isn't. Making bargains with the "law" cheapens the value of the law and makes it less worthy of respecting.


Quote:

if on the surface it seems as though he took a bigger spanking than the rest





lol, dude... you say that like there's a silver lining in there somewhere. It doesn't appear that way; it is that way.
He took an EPICALLY bigger spanking than the rest. The rest get to sit around through the offseason serving their suspensions, and then return to cheating in cycling - and any other sport they choose to cheat at. Lance is banned FOREVER - and not *just* cycling, but from EVERY SINGLE SPORT that USADA tests for.

In your legal system analogy - one person gets their charge dropped to a Misdemeanor 1st so that they can pin a Death Sentence on the other guy.... for doing the EXACT same crime. The only thing that makes his "worse" is that you know his name.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
But now that Lance isn't around to orchestrate it, they won't cheat any more.


yebat' Putin
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Quote:

But now that Lance isn't around to orchestrate it, they won't cheat any more.







Ummm, I mean, yes... you're right. Cycling is a totally clean sport on the up-and-up now. R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

By the way, did you know that the WWF is *real* wrestling?


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Like how taking out a mob boss makes all of the gangsters under him turn to clean living.


yebat' Putin
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Quote:

Quote:

and he still never failed a drug test.

Amazing luck wouldn't you say?




Neither has Barry Bonds.




Umm, I don't think Bonds ever took a test.


#GMSTRONG
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Which may still prove the statement to be true.

"I never tested positive."

I thought every MLB player had to take an anonymous test to assess the steroid problem in baseball. Somehow, a few results were released (that's how a-rod got nailed). Bonds may not have been involved since wasn't part of the players union. Not sure.


[Linked Image]


“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Quote:

I don't know if he did PED's or not. But it says something about Lance Armstrong that so many former teammates are willing to throw him under the bus and no one is defending him.




Yeah ... mostly that USADA is willing to grant them immunity (or a slap on the wrist) ... if not outright under-the-table payment to get people to testify. Nobody is rushing to defending him, because EVERYONE in the sport was completely dirty ... and they want to avoid the microscope too.

The thing is ... this does absolutely nothing. Strip the title away, and you're just going to give it to the next doper in line ... big victory there.

And like Purp says, you're giving him a much bigger punishment then every other cheat (spelled: EVERYONE) in cycling in suspending him for life and stripping away every title. Meanwhile, every other guy not named Lance who's won the Tour since 1996 (bar Floyd Landis) continue to hold their titles.

The ONLY thing this does is give USADA a big head on a stick so they can justify their miserable existence and their waste of millions of tax dollars trying to nail one guy who cheated over 10 years ago with everybody else. Everybody's a winner huh?

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
C
Legend
Offline
Legend
C
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
In criminal court, don't they give people deals in order to testify against the guy they really want? How is this different?

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
S
Legend
Offline
Legend
S
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Pretty telling of this generation of sports when I'm not shocked in the least.

Not that I really care because I never watched.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,683
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,683
Although I am a cyclist, I have not followed this too closely.

I want to make a couple observations.

I don't know if Lance doped or not. The facts are that he was drug testing and he passed all of the tests.

If drug tests are the benchmark by which doping is determined, then the evidence does not support the ban.

So we are left with the testimony of the other cyclists. It should be noted that the statements of the other cyclists resulted in no suspensions or perhaps a 6 month suspension, which is conveniently timed to end before next years tour. I am dismayed by this time, as anyone who follows cycling knows that the suspensions will end before next years Tour de France.

The claims of coercion have some merit. The consequences of not participating were much greater. But in limiting the suspensions to 6 months, it stinks.

If doping is such an issue, why are not the top riders provided with an official representative between races. It is not that hard to post a person for the three weeks of time to follow the leaders between races to assure a clean result.

I do not know if the USADA, WADA or another organization has the jurisdiction to take the victories away.

It is a mess, a pathetic mess on the part of regulators as well as participants.

Last edited by ChargerDawg; 10/11/12 11:55 PM.

Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
O
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Quote:

Like how taking out a mob boss makes all of the gangsters under him turn to clean living.


Interesting that if you take out enough crime bosses, the crime rings break down.

Kill Bin Laden and you stop terrorism, right? Nope, but if you take out enough of the big dogs, the effectiveness goes down.

Drawing the correlation, taking down Armstrong won't clean up the sport, but if you take down enough guys like him, the sport will begin to change.

Take the accusation that Armstrong bribed the UCI. If it's never caught, and thus never stopped, the alleged bribery goes on forever, continuing the tainting of the sport. However, if you expose the bribery and take those elements out of the sport, the sport can get cleaner.

Taking down Armstrong was never going to clean up the sport in one fell swoop. Taking down Armstrong is the logical first big step in stopping the cheating that has run rampant through it.

Of course there's the moral angle of this as well, which is really the most important thing. Gotta make sure people understand that cheating by taking drugs isn't something they wanna fool with.


***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887
Lance was retired...for a long time. Taking him down now and giving a slap on the wrist to the current crop of cheaters does nothing at all.


[Linked Image from mypsn.eu.playstation.com]
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

That's all I was hoping for.



So hypothetically, if his wins go away, his reputation is shot and his endorsements go away.. and as a result, his humanitarian efforts go away, will you still claim that a victory?




His humanitarian efforts will never go away. While his cycling empire, one built on cheating, has crumbled, his fund-raising efforts will continue to go on and flourish.

All he's lost is his cycling reputation. Yet we are a world of second chances. If Armstrong would come out, admit what he did, and apologize, people would forgive him in a heartbeat. People WANT to believe in him. They will, especially in a sport where the best cheaters win, thinking, wrongly, that if most were doing it, then all should be forgiven.

It won't be a "victory" for me if his fund-raising stops. But I think we both know that won't happen. That is it's own industry and it's big business.




Lance Armstrong stepping down as chairman of Livestrong
8:30AM EDT October 17. 2012 -

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — Lance Armstrong is stepping down as chairman of his Livestrong cancer-fighting charity to help it limit the damage from the doping scandal that has snared the former champion cyclist.

Livestrong woes: Armstrong says fundraising hurt by USADA

Pedaling on: Amid doping case, Livestrong continues

Armstrong announced the move Wednesday, a week after the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency released a massive report detailing allegations of widespread performance-enhancing drug use by Armstrong and his teams.

The document included testimony from 11 former teammates. USADA has ordered 14 years of Armstrong's career results erased, including his seven Tour de France titles

web page

Anybody that thinks his charity will be the same without him is nuts.


yebat' Putin
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Quote:

Anybody that thinks his charity will be the same without him is nuts.





Absolutely, it will not. Him stepping down tells me that they've already seen a significant negative feedback, and him removing himself from it is probably hopeful of repairing the image of LIVESTRONG. It's not going to work, not without a massive PR campaign, because Lance WAS LIVESTRONG.

The best they can do is find a way to hold on long enough to establish a new identity, one that is detached from Lance..... I don't think it'll happen, and I think the charity is going to die.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Quote:

Lance was retired...for a long time. Taking him down now and giving a slap on the wrist to the current crop of cheaters does nothing at all.




I'd argue the opposite. This shows that even if you can evade testing positive during your career, you're not safe after. You can still lose your reputation, endorsements and all of your records/awards. While Lance still has his money, he's now a cautionary tale of cheating. If this means one, a hundred or a thousand athlete's refuse to cheat for fear of ending up like him, than the post-career attack was worth it in my book. Plus, he did cheat...so he should get punished.

Nike dumps Lance
AUSTIN, Texas -- Nike severed ties with Lance Armstrong on Wednesday, citing insurmountable evidence that the cyclist participated in doping and misled the company about those activities for more than a decade.

The clothing and footwear company said it terminated Armstrong's contract "with great sadness."

"Nike does not condone the use of illegal performance enhancing drugs in any manner," it said in a statement.

Armstrong said Wednesday, just minutes before the announcement from Nike, that he was stepping down as chairman of his Livestrong cancer-fighting charity so that the organization can steer clear of the whirlwind surrounding its founder.

Nike Inc., based in Beaverton, Oregon, said it plans to continue its support for Livestrong.

The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency released a massive report last week detailing allegations of widespread doping by Armstrong and his teams when he won the Tour de France seven consecutive times from 1999 to 2005. The document's purpose was to show why USADA has banned him from cycling for life and ordered 14 years of his career results erased -- including those Tour titles. It contains sworn statements from 26 witnesses, including 11 former teammates.

Nike has stuck by the athletes that it has endorsed in the past during tumultuous times in their lives, including Tiger Woods.

The company distanced itself from NFL quarterback Michael Vick following a dog-fighting scandal, but by last year, it was backing Vick once again.

More in the link...


While Nike is granstanding a bit, I think them speaking out like this should really show the steadfast Lance supporters that the evidence is real and Lance was dirty. It's never good to see your hero revealed as a cheat, but he was.


[Linked Image]


“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Quote:



Nike dumps Lance


"Nike does not condone
getting caught in the use of illegal performance enhancing drugs in any manner," it said in a statement.





Fixed it, otherwise Nike would have to explain their deals with football, baseball, and all kinds of other athletes.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,767
1
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
1
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,767
doping is the game within the game. A fox and hound deal. Keep one step ahead of the testing.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
O
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
A larger article that gives more details... web page

AUSTIN, Texas -- Lance Armstrong said Wednesday he is stepping down as chairman of his Livestrong cancer-fighting charity so the group can focus on its mission instead of its founder's problems.

[+] EnlargeArmstrong
AP Photo/Steve RuarkLance Armstrong is stepping down as chairman of his Livestrong cancer-fighting charity.

The move came on the same day that Nike terminated its endorsement deal with the embattled cyclist, a source told ESPN's Darren Rovell. Nike had been one of Armstrong's biggest supporters and said it will still support Livestrong.

Armstrong's decision to leave Livestrong came a week after the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency released a massive report detailing allegations of widespread doping by Armstrong and his teams when he won the Tour de France seven consecutive times from 1999 to 2005.

USADA's documentation attempts to show why the organization has banned him from cycling for life and ordered 14 years of his career results erased -- including those Tour titles. It contains sworn statements from 26 witnesses, including 11 former teammates. Cycling's governing body, the International Cycling Union (UCI), received USADA's report last week and has 21 days to decide whether to formally ratify the decision to strip Armstrong of his Tour titles or appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

Armstrong, who was not paid a salary as chairman of the Lance Armstrong Foundation, will remain on its 15-member board. His duties leading the board will be turned over to vice chairman Jeff Garvey, who was founding chairman in 1997.

"This organization, its mission and its supporters are incredibly dear to my heart," Armstrong said in a statement obtained by The Associated Press. "Today therefore, to spare the foundation any negative effects as a result of controversy surrounding my cycling career, I will conclude my chairmanship."

Foundation spokeswoman Katherine McLane said the decision turns over the foundation's big-picture strategic planning to Garvey. He will also assume some of the public appearances and meetings that Armstrong used to handle.

Armstrong strongly denies doping, but he did not fight the USADA accusations through arbitration, saying he thinks the process is unfair. Once Armstrong gave up the fight in August and the report came out, crisis management experts predicted that the future of the foundation, known mainly by its Livestrong brand name, would be threatened. They said Armstrong should consider stepping down to keep the charity from getting dragged into a debate over doping.

Ford: Lance Debate Is Over

The word "alleged" should now be dropped from any description of the way doping permeated and enabled Lance Armstrong's cycling career. It's clear now -- Armstrong doped, writes Bonnie D. Ford. Story

Armstrong's inspiring story of not only recovering from testicular cancer that had spread to his lungs and brain but then winning the world's best-known bike race helped his foundation grow from a small operation in Texas into one of the most popular charities in the country.

Armstrong drew legions of fans -- and donations -- and insisted he was drug-free at a time when doping was rampant in professional cycling. In 2004, the foundation introduced the yellow Livestrong bracelets, selling more than 80 million and creating a global symbol for cancer awareness and survivorship.

"As my cancer treatment was drawing to an end, I created a foundation to serve people affected by cancer. It has been a great privilege to help grow it from a dream into an organization that today has served 2.5 million people and helped spur a cultural shift in how the world views cancer survivors," Armstrong said.

As chairman, Armstrong did not run the foundation's day-to-day operations, which are handled by Livestrong president and chief executive Doug Ulman.

Ulman had said last week that Armstrong's leadership role would not change. Armstrong's statement said he will remain a visible advocate for cancer issues, and he is expected to speak at Friday night's 15th anniversary gala for Livestrong in Austin.

"My family and I have devoted our lives to the work of the foundation and that will not change. We plan to continue our service to the foundation and the cancer community. We will remain active advocates for cancer survivors and engaged supporters of the fight against cancer," Armstrong said.

SportsNation: USADA's case against Lance

SportsNation With the latest testimony released by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, many fans have changed their tune about Lance Armstrong. Did your view of Armstrong switch after the evidence given by 11 of his former teammates, including George Hincapie and Levi Leipheimer, was revealed?
Vote!

CharityWatch, a Chicago-based organization that analyzes the work of approximately 600 charities, lists the foundation among its top-rated organizations. That status normally goes to groups that "generally spend 75 percent or more of their budgets on programs, spend $25 or less to raise $100 in public support, do not hold excessive assets in reserve" and disclose basic financial information and documents.

Livestrong says it had functional expenses totaling nearly $35.8 million last year and 82 percent of every dollar raised went directly to programs, a total of more than $29.3 million.

The foundation reported a spike in contributions in late August in the days immediately after Armstrong announced he would no longer fight doping charges and officials moved to erase his Tour victories.

Daniel Borochoff, founder and president of CharityWatch, said last week it may take some time for donors to digest the allegations against Armstrong.

"Individuals that admire and support an individual who is later found out to be severely tarnished, don't want to admit it, don't want to admit that they've been duped," Borochoff said. "People, though, do need to trust a charity to be able to support it."

If I'm going to be pragmatic about this entire thing, I'd note that his cheating did have some amazingly positive effects on humanity. Without his cheating he'd have never won all those races, and without those wins, his charity wouldn't have raised the millions of dollars. But, of course, now the interest has come due.

Livestrong will survive, even if it's not ever going to be what it was. Once the inevitable backlash fades away, people will again recall the importance of the foundation, separate from Armstrong and support it.


***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Quote:

Quote:



Nike dumps Lance


"Nike does not condone
getting caught in the use of illegal performance enhancing drugs in any manner," it said in a statement.





Fixed it, otherwise Nike would have to explain their deals with football, baseball, and all kinds of other athletes.




Nike is an upstanding company and they don't put up with cheating of any kind from their stable of athletes, I mean look at Tiger Woods for instance and how fast they dro...

Umm, I guess cheating on your wife is within their standards.


#GMSTRONG
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Can't blame them. Nike is selling sports equipment, not eternal salvation... They want people who represent them on the sports field well.. They don't care about off the field as long as you are just a scumbag but aren't a criminal or anything like Michael Vi....

Ok, that doesn't work either.


yebat' Putin
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Lance Armstrong demanded evidence, so the USADA complied...

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5