Interesting Debate. Biden had more fire than the president, Ryan looked to be more in a "don't mess up the momentum" mode.
Enough rudeness to go around in this one.
Lots of double speak, lots of spinning on both sides.
Couple things that effect me that I learned.. I like the part of Obamacare that eliminates pre existing conditions.. I'm glad that the Romney Ryan team feel the same about that. Romney Ryan want to privatize Medicare/Medicade and I get the feeling they want to lengthen the years when you can start to collect SS.
But Ryan essentially said it doesn't effect anyone over 55 which actually makes my retirement strategy golden if Romney Ryan should win. At 60, It's a little late for me to shift everything away from my current plan and live like I want to.
That's if they mean it. If they are saying that just to get elected, then I'm in trouble.
As for who won and who lost.. to me both of these guys are liars that pimp for their guy so,, the winner is the guy that gets elected, the loser in either case..... is us.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: As for who won and who lost.. to me both of these guys are liars that pimp for their guy so,, the winner is the guy that gets elected, the loser in either case..... is us.
Quote: I am watching the debate again here ...... and Biden, really, said something long the lines of "Trust me" when it came to Mecidare.Social Security.
Sorry Joe ..... but I don't trust you.
i can understand that, but you trust Romney and Ryan?
I like to think of the witness in a trial comparison. Show the witness dishonest and you can question everything else. How many of Obama's promises have been broken? Transparency in Government? Broken. Change in the Washington ways? Broken. Stimulus will get us to 6% unemployment? Broken. Close Gitmo? Broken. About 86 according to Politifact. 38% of his promises were kept. So when Joe says who do you trust? For me, it ain't Joe and the big 0. They keep their promise 1/3 of the time. They had their chances.
I do think in the end, if Biden wasn't so boorish, after a slow start, he won this debate by a narrow margin due to foreign policy knowledge. But I think it is safe to say he is privy to more of it since he has been in. The incumbent should have some advantages in intelligence knowledge. BUT he did throw the intelligence guys under the bus and lied about Libya.
CNN: Stats, grins and 'malarkey' CNN Poll: Who won? | Debate transcript Opinion: It was like a father-son brawl *Maybe blue? Watch their faces | Biden's grins Not their bosses' debate | Grins, smirks Watch replay: Anytime on Web, 12p on TV Opinion: Hyper Biden, wonky Ryan Funny tweets | Zingers | Photos Moderator seemed to be 3rd debater *But maybe red, due to who is complaining
Current MSNBC Headlines: "Biden Brings the Heat while Ryan Holds his Own" "Maddow: Dems Psyched by Biden's Performance" "Smerconish: Ryan Turned in a Strong Performance" "Biden's smirks, Ryan's Thirst: Web weighs in" "Truth Squad: Behind the statements" "Vote: Tell us who you think won"
Fox News Headlines: Snickerdoodle (n head-to-head battle of proxies, Vice President Joe Biden launches attack against Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney — including a barrage of grins, guffaws, snickers and interruptions.) Biden's Demeanor During Debate Called Disrespectful Transcript 5 Highlights Videos OPINION: Biden's Parents Taught Him Many Things — But Not Manners Was Chris Matthews Biden's Debate Coach? Biden's 'Weren't Told' Claim On Libya Raises Eyebrows BIAS ALERT: Liberal Media Differs on Debate Spin
I love fact checks that do no research whatsoever .....
One of the "facts" was the comment about Assad in Syria being called a "reformer" by the administration.
The fact checkers said this was false.
However, looking back to just 2011, Hillary Clinton said the following: "Many of the members of Congress of both parties who have gone to Syria in recent months have said they believe he’s a reformer."
Now what she said really wasn't the truth, it did certainly put to paper the implication of an official position.
So Clinton did, indeed, at the very least imply that they shared this view that "others" held.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
CNN last night was fact checking and stated on a graphic that Ryan claims Iran has five bombs. He said no such thing. He said they have the fissile material for 5 nukes; not bombs or missles themselves. About 20 minutes later CNN recanted the graphic, but when I saw it I shook my head since the "fact checkers" can't even start with the correct claim to check.
I dont know how they check facts or whatever, but Bidens health care claims ticked me off. Since 2008 my healthcare out of pocket has gone up $3500 per year, and medications for my children that used to be of no cost to me now have co-pay's even using the generic drugs.
I dont know how they check facts or whatever, but Bidens health care claims ticked me off. Since 2008 my healthcare out of pocket has gone up $3500 per year, and medications for my children that used to be of no cost to me now have co-pay's even using the generic drugs.
Not sure what Biden was referring to. Must have missed that.
But if you look, healthcare costs started to really sky rocket in 2002. Back then you could, as an employer, get an employee and family covered with Major Medical/Dental/Vision/Prescriptions/low co pay/ 80/20/ minimal deductable.
Total cost of plan, about $350 to 400 a month. An employer was required by the insurance company to pay a minimum of 25% of that cost and could legitimately pass on the rest to the employee as a payroll deduction. But even then, most employers still paid closer to 75%.
Now, that same plan is 800 to 1200 a month or more and companies are passing a greater percentage back to the employee.
Take my wife for instance, right at this moment, she's home on Short Term Disability. But when she works, about 350 a month comes out of her check to pay for her and I to be covered.
But, because there is a chance she may have to go on long term disability, she will have to pay the entire premium + 3% in service fees. and that total brings the total we'd have to pay under cobra is just a hair over 1000.00 per month.
So I hope your not blaming the cost of health insurance on this adminstration cause it started happening long ago and has been really rising since 2002.
If I could find it, I'll let you know what I was paying in 1990. That would freak you out. The difference will be amazing. I seem to remember that as a married man, covering me and my wife, we were paying something like 40 bucks a month as the employee contribution. My guess is the cost was under 250 a month for total insurance coverage better than what I have today.
I don't think that anyone, left or right, believes we don't need some kinda reform.
The Dems had it in their hands,,, they could have assured an Obama win if only they'd have taken their heads out of their butts long enough to realize, that there are two sides to this coin. The Employer needs to remain profitable or it goes under.. the employee needs reasonable coverage at a reasonable price and the independent businessman (such as me) need a way to get insured even if you have pre existing conditions and to do so at rates that won't break them.
I would gladly take Medicare and pay premiums and if I'm allowed to buy a supplimental plan, again at a reasonable rate.
But today, I can't buy anything on my own. At any price
Last edited by Damanshot; 10/12/1201:10 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
It absolutely needs reformed, but trying to convince me that the middle class is better off now (as far as health care) then they were 4 years ago is crazy.
Quote: So I hope your not blaming the cost of health insurance on this adminstration cause it started happening long ago and has been really rising since 2002.
but, when an administrations main talking point to get elected centers around this particular issue and it continues to get worse at the same (or even escalated) rate, then wouldn't you find some fault in the administration?
I dont know how they check facts or whatever, but Bidens health care claims ticked me off. Since 2008 my healthcare out of pocket has gone up $3500 per year, and medications for my children that used to be of no cost to me now have co-pay's even using the generic drugs.
Not sure what Biden was referring to. Must have missed that.
But if you look, healthcare costs started to really sky rocket in 2002. Back then you could, as an employer, get an employee and family covered with Major Medical/Dental/Vision/Prescriptions/low co pay/ 80/20/ minimal deductable.
Total cost of plan, about $350 to 400 a month. An employer was required by the insurance company to pay a minimum of 25% of that cost and could legitimately pass on the rest to the employee as a payroll deduction. But even then, most employers still paid closer to 75%.
Now, that same plan is 800 to 1200 a month or more and companies are passing a greater percentage back to the employee.
Take my wife for instance, right at this moment, she's home on Short Term Disability. But when she works, about 350 a month comes out of her check to pay for her and I to be covered.
But, because there is a chance she may have to go on long term disability, she will have to pay the entire premium + 3% in service fees. and that total brings the total we'd have to pay under cobra is just a hair over 1000.00 per month.
So I hope your not blaming the cost of health insurance on this adminstration cause it started happening long ago and has been really rising since 2002.
If I could find it, I'll let you know what I was paying in 1990. That would freak you out. The difference will be amazing. I seem to remember that as a married man, covering me and my wife, we were paying something like 40 bucks a month as the employee contribution. My guess is the cost was under 250 a month for total insurance coverage better than what I have today.
I don't think that anyone, left or right, believes we don't need some kinda reform.
The Dems had it in their hands,,, they could have assured an Obama win if only they'd have taken their heads out of their butts long enough to realize, that there are two sides to this coin. The Employer needs to remain profitable or it goes under.. the employee needs reasonable coverage at a reasonable price and the independent businessman (such as me) need a way to get insured even if you have pre existing conditions and to do so at rates that won't break them.
I would gladly take Medicare and pay premiums and if I'm allowed to buy a supplimental plan, again at a reasonable rate.
But today, I can't buy anything on my own. At any price
They will never solve the healthcare problem by raking businesses and consumers over the coals. Obamacare is doing nothing but punishing the victims of an out of control system. The only way to solve it is to regulate health care costs.
An IV bag of saline solution that costs 50 cents to make should not cost the consumer 200 bucks. A 5 minute zap by a CT Scan machine should not cost 1300 bucks. A radiologist isn't going to spend more than 5 minutes looking at the scan.
Nobody should charge that much for their services. I'm not buying into the "It costs a lot do healthcare as a business" argument. Every other type of business on the planet has business costs and staff to pay, but doesn't need to charge ridiculous amounts of money for things.
All the over priced crap is what is screwing up health care. It will never change until they solve the root cause of WHY it costs so much.
Obamacare as I understand it does a lot of cost shifting to provide coverage but it does little to nothing to prevent the rise of those costs or help stem the abuse. What you are going to have is a large number of people who will become insured one way or another and are going to place a demand on health care services/products that they normally would not have. That higher demand on a limited supply will thrust prices higher, no?
Actually, if you look at the way the 2 men, Romney and Biden, acted, there was nothing more than a superficial comparison.
Biden was snarky, smirky, and rude. He would offer a "ha" in the middle of Ryan's responses.
Romney did none of these things. He generally waited until the President was wrapping up his comments before he got his points in. I do not believe that he ever referred to Obama as anything except "The President", or "Mr President". He backed up what he said with facts, for the most part.
One exchange that particularly stuck with me was when Biden said that cutting taxes had "never worked" to stimulate the economy, and Ryan said that he could think of 2 times right off the bat .... Kennedy and Reagan. As soon as he said the name "Kennedy", Biden said "Oh so now you're Kennedy" instead of trying to defend the point. (which, of course, he couldn't)
Biden was put in a difficult position of defending a failed administration, and that's never easy. The economy remains a train wreck ...... jobs that are coming back are part time jobs that are being created because employers are doing away with full time employment, and the country just kind of lists along, like a ship without a rudder. The President (and Biden) complain about Republican obstructionism, but part of being President is being able to work across the aisle. Neither man has shown any inclination to even attempt to do so. Much of the mess we have today is the direct result of their own actions. The famous Republican quote about job 1 being to make sure that Obama is a one term President wasn't said at the beginning of Obama's term, but rather after he railroaded his agenda through Congress, without even bothering to ask for a Republican idea, and while ignoring Republican objections like they didn't even exist.
This administration has failed, and will continue to fail, because they have no clue how to work with anyone who doesn't worship at their feet. It's time for a new direction. Hopefully the country sees that as well. I shudder to think what we'll look like with another 4 years of Obamanomics, as well as a couple of Obama far left Judges added to the Supreme Court.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I agree. Between Obamas sneering and acting like the debate was beneath him, and Bidens mocking, rudeness, and acting like the debate was a joke......I dont see how anyone would ever want those two in office.
Total lack of leadership and professionalism. These are not people I would want representing America.
Back when I worked in the corporate world, if those two showed up for a job interview acting like that.....they would be out the door so fast their head would spin.
Quote: I shudder to think what we'll look like with another 4 years of Obamanomics, as well as a couple of Obama far left Judges added to the Supreme Court.
Far left judges?
I am continually fascinated by the Boogeyman so many fear that simply does not exist.
Obama is a right-of-center moderate, by almost any conventional standard. And he's appointed two left-of-center moderates to the Supreme Court.
What is the basis for your fear of far left judges? When has the guy ever been 'far left'?
You look at things as some bizarre scale using Communist Russia as the left ....... but that's never been the US. On the US scale, Obama has been to the left. He has drastically expanded social spending, increasing spending on food stamps, welfare, and other types of redistribution type programs. He pushed through this disastrous Obamacare, which if left alone will have no choice but to eventually go to a single payer system, because no employer will be able to provide private sector insurance. They will pay the tax instead. He wants to further eliminate taxes on the so called middle class, while increasing taxes on the so called rich. He wants to expand programs that give people money in the form of a so called refund. None of these are "right" in the US political spectrum.
I will accept that some on the right have moved to the left and have championed things like EITC redistribution schemes, and so on ..... but that doesn't mean that the ideals of the US right are espoused by these actions and policies.
You say that we are a center right country .... I would argue that our policies have been center left lately. (on the US scale, which really is the only scale that matters) We would be far better off with a center right agenda of lowering spending, taxes, unearned benefits, redistribution, and so on.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
By what conventions is he a center right US politician?
I'm serious.
Just because you say something does not make it so. You say this over and over and over and over ...... and that still does not make it so.
Just because certain politicians on the right have moved left in some of their positions does not necessarily move the baseline.
A government takeover of healthcare is not a center right position, no matter who proposes it.
I am curious as to what you would see as a left position in US politics.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
This isn't a government takeover of healthcare. It's a private sector (top six insurance providers and pharmaceuticals) hand job that was pitched as the alternative to a single payer system- which was totally left off the discussion table for healthcare reform.
I- and I'm sure many others- just don't like the conflict of interest that arises in for profit entities' judgments that can be swayed by money. Particularly medicine and prisons.
But, hey! Back to ignoring the Republican-born idea of the current health system, high priest of hyperbole.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Biden schooled Ryan and continuassly called BS on Ryans lies and proved them to be lies by quoting exactly what Romney and Romney have said, and done in past
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
If you would start with a set amount of money (a basic concept most politicians do not grasp), and your goal is to feed as many people as possible, put McDonalds in charge. They will do it as efficiently as possible because every single aspect of the task has been carefully examined to lower costs in any way possible, while still putting out an acceptable product. A few people might get fat or have heart trouble, years down the road.
If you refuse to have this done by a for-profit business, and insist that Government do this job, for the same amount of money, fewer people will be fed. There may, or may not, be fewer people who get fat or have heart trouble, years down the road. There will, however, be many more people who will starve to death, right now,
Most Leftists will demand the second option, while insisting that more money be made available. Like the politicians, they will never understand the reality that there is no more money to be made available. Nor will they ever consider that with that additional money, Mickey D can feed yet more people.
Feel free to substitute Wendy's, Burger king, Domino's, or Taco Bell as you wish. In fact, anyone at all who is not free to reach into someone else's wallet and steal whatever they wish to use as they see fit. The guy running a hot dog cart in a parking lot would do a better job.
If you are not looking for Profit, then you don't care about Loss. The two are intimately bound together and cannot be separated.
Quote: This isn't a government takeover of healthcare. It's a private sector (top six insurance providers and pharmaceuticals) hand job that was pitched as the alternative to a single payer system- which was totally left off the discussion table for healthcare reform.
I- and I'm sure many others- just don't like the conflict of interest that arises in for profit entities' judgments that can be swayed by money. Particularly medicine and prisons.
But, hey! Back to ignoring the Republican-born idea of the current health system, high priest of hyperbole.
I do believe that part of this bill was a gift to insurance companies. Who wrote the bill? It wasn't Republicans. This was a Democrat baby all the way.
However, you watch employers drop coverage as time goes along. It makes no sense for an employer to pay a "non-essential" lower level employee's insurance when that cost exceeds the $2500 level for a year. Why would they? The labor pool is deep and broad,and it appears that will continue with few jobs available, and most of those being part time openings. How would a company, as I outlined in the Red Lobster thread, pay the $2500 per employee, or insure employees themselves, when they would be out of business if they do so? They will just cut every "non-essential" full time employee back to part time status, or move them out entirely. They will hire 2 new part time employees for every full timer now employed. Businesses cannot pay more than they have. The math simply does not add up. Businesses would go out of business if forced to pay more than their model supports for a profitable business. This was never factored into this law though.
Further, if a new business tries to start up and will be anywhere near the level of 50 full time employees, they will have to instead employ part timers. That $2500 per employee may not sound like a lot, but adding an additional $125,000 in first year cost to a start up company is a recipe for disaster right off the bat for most of them. Most 1st year companies are lucky to make a profit at all in year 1. Say goodbye to jobs, and businesses that will never get started.
As far as where this idea started, I could not care less if this was a Republican idea, whether it was a Democrat idea, or whether it was proposed by the man in the moon. It is a job killing idea, especially in the middle of a recession when we need new business start-ups to jump start full time employment.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I can't believe no one has brought it up, but what about Biden's blatant lie about Libya?
He's quote in the debate: "Well, we weren't told they wanted more security again. We did not know they wanted more security again."
If you have followed the Congressional hearings this week, you know that this was a big, bold-faced lie. This wasn't just stretching the truth...it was complete contradiction.
Quote: Actually, if you look at the way the 2 men, Romney and Biden, acted, there was nothing more than a superficial comparison.
Biden was snarky, smirky, and rude. He would offer a "ha" in the middle of Ryan's responses.
You can debate the whole "rude vs ruder" if you wish but both were rude.
Quote: Romney did none of these things. He generally waited until the President was wrapping up his comments before he got his points in. I do not believe that he ever referred to Obama as anything except "The President", or "Mr President". He backed up what he said with facts, for the most part.
Well Biden called Ryan his "friend" 12 times. Sounds nice to me!
That's BS. He continualy interrupted the moderator, when the moderator tried to move on, Romney consistantly interrupted him, ignored when the moderator told him to stop and railroaded the moderator. He kept talking about "what he was goig to do", yet refused to give any details of how he planned to accomplish those things. That's espousing ideaology, not providing facts. I'm not trying to say that Biden wasn't rude, but you try to excuse Romeny's actions and they too were quite rude.
And which set of facts are you speaking of? Romeny has what he calls "two sets of facts" on a LOT of issues. Which Mitt Romney are you voting for?
Biden was strong and assertive in his debate and that's exactly the comment you would have made had Ryan acted the way Biden did.
I think these debates are dog and pony shows. And I love it when someone tries to call a foul when in fact, had their candidate of choice acted the same, they would have complimented them.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
All of the fast food establishments you mentioned rely heavily on corn, which is subsidized by the federal government.
Without federal government subsidization, McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, etc. wouldn't be able to provide food at such a low cost. Those establishments couldn't do what you're touting them for being able to do without the federal goverment.
I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing - it's merely the truth.
Quote: By what conventions is he a center right US politician?
Just about any.
His biggest 'achievement' is a right-of-center healthcare bill. His foreign policy is right of center. His economic policy is right of center.
Quote:
Just because you say something does not make it so. You say this over and over and over and over ...... and that still does not make it so.
The irony of this coming from you is priceless.
Quote: Just because certain politicians on the right have moved left in some of their positions does not necessarily move the baseline.
For the most part, politicians on the right have moved further right. The politicians on the left have moved further right as well. This has been going on for a long time.
Where did you come up with this?
Quote: A government takeover of healthcare is not a center right position, no matter who proposes it.
That would be a valid talking point if we had a government takeover of health care.
But we didn't.
What were you saying about simply saying something over and over not making it so?
Quote: For the most part, politicians on the right have moved further right. The politicians on the left have moved further right as well. This has been going on for a long time.
First of all, please give a time frame for this. What is a "long time?"
Second, what is your definition of "left" and "right?"
Taken from Wikipedia:
Quote: The contemporary Left usually defines itself as promoting government regulation of business, commerce and industry; protection of fundamental rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of religion; and government intervention on behalf of racial, ethnic, and sexual minorities and the working class.
Quote: In general, right-wing implies a commitment to conservative Christian values, support for a free-market system, and "traditional family values". The contemporary Right usually defines itself as promoting deregulation of banking, commerce, and industry.
Which way do you think we have been going as a society? Has the federal government increased in size and scope (intervention)? Has President Obama increased or decreased regulation of banking, commerce, and industry? Didn't Obama recently come out saying he was in favor of same-sex marriage?
How can you honestly say that Obama is right-center? And how can you honestly say that that politicians (and society in general) have been moving further right for a "long time."
I think your definition of "left" and "right" must be a lot different than everyone else's.
Define what you see as "center right" in his economic policies. Give me specific examples.
I do not buy the healthcare mess as a center right proposition. It may have had some roots in Republican policies, but that does not make it center right. The Medicare prescription disaster was pushed through by a Republican Congress and President, but that does not make it center-right ..... it makes it a pay-off to seniors by Republicans hoping to gain a massive foothold with that group.
I am still waiting for you to prove your points, as opposed to just saying "It's because I say it's so". I gave several examples, like tax structure and so on that are left, rather than right policies. I would also include the Obama administration stepping back in the world, allowing others to lead, while we follow. This has been a left leaning policy. Trying to "equalize" things by penalizing US industries via treaties is also a left leaning policy. (The Law of the Sea treaty would have set up international authorities to oversee all ocean activities, that the US would have to "help" fund ........ and would take profits from US off-shore drillers to give to "developing" countries. (without any say-so on our part as to who these countries would be) This treaty has been sent to the Senate by the Obama administration. This is not a "center-right" treaty. The expansion of welfare and explosion of food stamp eligibility is not a center right policy. Trying to remove people from the tax rolls, and redistributing tax monies as a pseudo welfare program is not center-right. (and I don't give a damn who introduced, passed, or championed them) Trying to raise tax rates on one class is not a center-right stance on tax policy.
The Republican healthcare proposal was, IIRC, initially a response to HillaryCare. It was trying to get a better solution than what was proposed by her. (and the administration) The Republicans never took it up when they had the White House and Congress ..... so I have to ask just how strongly Republicans wanted this idea passed. Was it a serious proposal on its own, or was it a response to what they saw as a worse option?
So I will ask you again .... what Obama policies do you see that are "center-right"? I have given many specifics .... so I will ask you again for specifics as to what you see as "center-right" laws passed by the Obama administration, center-right budget items pursued, and center-right proposals on economics, tax policy, and so on that Obama has pushed.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
The United States of America, as a whole, has progressed economic policy and social policy at a slow rate compared to other nations. It's the concept of gradualism which makes our nation much more right leaning than other nations across the globe.
But you do agree that our country and politicians have been gradually moving "left." That's the opposite of what PDR said. Now, if he said we are gradually moving right compared to the rest of the world, I would believe it. That's not what he said. If you look at just American politics, you would see that we have been slowly moving left since the founding of our country. That's just how societies work.
PDR also said that "by U.S. standards, he's not even left. He's moderate right." So, we're not comparing President Obama to other nations. So, I don't really get your point. By any U.S. standard, he would not be considered "middle-right."
On social issues (gay/women's rights, gun control): Left-leaning
Government spending and intervention for the middle/lower class: Left-leaning
Government regulation of industry/banks: Left-leaning (GM/Freddie Mac/Fannie May)
Foreign policy: the only one I would say right-leaning.
If anything, you should say Bush was left-leaning. Sure, he was far-right when it came to social issues and foreign policy, but he was left-leaning in most other issues.
Quote: It absolutely needs reformed, but trying to convince me that the middle class is better off now (as far as health care) then they were 4 years ago is crazy.
You just want to lay it on Obama and you are wrong to do so, The increase in costs started long before Obama even thought of running for President.
We are NOT better off today than we were 4 years ago and I never said we were, but what I am saying is that McCain could have gotten elected and we'd be right where we are. It had nothing to do with Obama.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: It absolutely needs reformed, but trying to convince me that the middle class is better off now (as far as health care) then they were 4 years ago is crazy.
You just want to lay it on Obama and you are wrong to do so, The increase in costs started long before Obama even thought of running for President.
We are NOT better off today than we were 4 years ago and I never said we were, but what I am saying is that McCain could have gotten elected and we'd be right where we are. It had nothing to do with Obama.
Quote: So I hope your not blaming the cost of health insurance on this adminstration cause it started happening long ago and has been really rising since 2002.
but, when an administrations main talking point to get elected centers around this particular issue and it continues to get worse at the same (or even escalated) rate, then wouldn't you find some fault in the administration?
Tell you what, If you agree to lay the blame for healthcare cost increase until 2008 on Bush, then I'll go with you on the last 4 years.. neither has done diddely to fix the real problem. Neither even understood the real problem.
What I don't understand is this need to blame everything on Obama.. Did he help,, NO, did he cause it, NO, do I care who's to blame anymore, NO, I just want it addressed in a proper manner.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: On social issues (gay/women's rights, gun control): Left-leaning
How does he lean left on gun control?
He hasn't introduced, passed or endorsed a single gun control bill while in office. After a rash of shootings that usually galvanize a gun control base, he pledged that he wouldn't change existing laws.
The only time he's put his signature to paper when it's come to guns is to increase access and the ability to carry.
This is what I'm talking about when I talk about a fictional Boogeyman - there are thousands of people who fear that Obama is going to come and take their guns away - without a shred of evidence to back it up. Any evidence that exists goes against the theory, actually.
And I wouldn't call him 'left' on gay rights. It took the guy almost 4 years to come out and say that gays should marry.
Nor would I really classify gay rights as a left/right issue. A true right-leaning stance would be that the government shouldn't regulate marriage, or at the very least make it a state's rights issue. The only reason it's a political issue is to lure the religious vote.
Quote: So I hope your not blaming the cost of health insurance on this adminstration cause it started happening long ago and has been really rising since 2002.
but, when an administrations main talking point to get elected centers around this particular issue and it continues to get worse at the same (or even escalated) rate, then wouldn't you find some fault in the administration?
Tell you what, If you agree to lay the blame for healthcare cost increase until 2008 on Bush, then I'll go with you on the last 4 years.. neither has done diddely to fix the real problem. Neither even understood the real problem.
What I don't understand is this need to blame everything on Obama.. Did he help,, NO, did he cause it, NO, do I care who's to blame anymore, NO, I just want it addressed in a proper manner.
The need to lay it on Obama is because his healthcare plan has made/will make everything 1000 times worse. He is trying to force business to foot the bill for healthcare, and that is not going to happen. Businesses will just reduce hours/eat the fine/raise premiums to avoid the cost. There will be more people than ever that have to obtain individual insurance.
I don't know if you've ever looked at individual insurance, but it is much more expensive than group insurance. It covers less and deductibles are higher.
This results in much higher cost to consumers.
The actual problem of WHY does it cost so much is not being addressed at all. NOTHING is being done to reduce the cost of health care. All that has been done is a shell game of "hide the cost" and "pass it on to someone else" Absolutely zero zilch has been done to address the actual problem. And yet Obama touts his ObamaCare like it is going to save the country. It's only going to make things worse.
When he stated in the debate that health insurance costs haven't gone up much since he's been president, I about wanted to puke. Either he is clueless, or that was a blatent lie. I am a person with chronic illness and have to deal with the healthcare system on a constant basis. The cost of everything involved has sky rocketed. Yes, you are correct, it started happening before he was president, but it has certainly not slowed or stopped since he's been president. It gets worse every single year.
I'm talking at a world scale, not just USA policy. We might've been ahead of the curve during the Civil Rights era but we fell back to gradualism after Brown vs. Topeka Board of Education and after The Civil Rights Act was passed.
Quote: If you look at just American politics, you would see that we have been slowly moving left since the founding of our country. That's just how societies work.
That's how it usually works. I also think part of the problem is revisionist history, too. Example? Lincoln wanted to abolish slavery but he had serious contemplation of sending the newly freed slaves back to their original land.
As for Obama, I'm not sure where his true principles lay. I think fundamentally he's left but in order to get anything done he has to come all the way over to the extreme right.
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