|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,379
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,379 |
Chilly for Shurm is that an option. Kinda hedging the bet? Maybe Banner coaches too . . . . 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 510
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 510 |
Quote:
I hope your joy is well founded.
If Banner is limited to the business side then we may be OK.
If he's seriously involved in the football side I think guys like you will be singing a different tune in a couple of years.
I'll also tell you what I told another poster in a PM. If Banner and Haslam waltz in and do a total tear down of staff and players I'm gone. I won't go through another total rebuild. Too old and too tired to put up with that crap one more time.
Some tweaks here. Some revamping there. That will be fine. A total blow-up....nope, not gonna wait around for that.
I feel your pain. Out goes the 3-4 and back to the 4-3 now that we are fielding a very good defense and have the roster to do it? Out goes the west coast and in comes gawd only knows what? Shurmur is already leary of his future. if they allow him to finish the season, he'll have 2 years tender. That's pretty good considering the average length of time on the job for a Cleveland Browns coach since 1999 is 2.2 years.
hope and change...hope and change...hey? wonder if Obama is going to need a job in 2013? or 2017? I can wait for him. LOL But then again...considering his record.... oh well. (and yes I am a supporter of his).  
Never have hope. You won’t be disappointed.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Here's the one major difference facing this organization as of today; the owner has a vested interest in winning. That alone has to mean something. Again I refer to accountability. Now there is some, before there was none.
On the football side, maybe Shurmur ekes out 6-7 more wins and you'll get some stability. If he doesn't, you can look for a HC change, and we all know what that is likely to mean. As much as I'd like to see some continuity for a change, a new HC will want his people in here, including coaches, player types, etc. If we go that route, we'll be fortunate to keep the cream of our thin crop. On the other hand, maybe Haslam realizes that there needs to be some stability and will insist on it even if he does let the HC go. Who knows? Right now, I just want to see us win the majority of our remaining games, then see what happens after that.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 510
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 510 |
Never have hope. You won’t be disappointed.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 510
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 510 |
I'll settle for one more win. Anything beyond that is icing on the cake. Or pie in the sky? We do still have the Raiders and the Chiefs left on our schedule. The rest of them...well...Colts? Steelers? Cowboys? Every team left on our schedule, with the exception of the Ravens, is either .500 or below. I might be wrong as I've been known to be. Maybe this past week will give the boys a boost in confidence and they'll continue to play fairly well. 
Never have hope. You won’t be disappointed.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
now that we are fielding a very good defense
what?
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,157
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,157 |
We as a team and a fan base are the joke of the league. Almost every year we are screaming to fire the coach, fire the GM, fire the president. Our owners always comply. We would have been better off keeping Palmer as coach for the last 14 years. We've gone what, 69-145? Even if he couldn't win 5 games a year we wouldn't have had to go through all the highs and lows that comes with changing management, which leads to rebuilding every two years.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,104
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,104 |
Like most everyone I am hoping that it doesn't get blown up. I would love to see Heckert stay as well as most of the coaching staff. Tho I am not sold on Shurmur. I would think that, if they decide that a new coach is what we need, he would come from the same background as Banner,Heckert etc. Hum, I said it before on another thread a few weeks ago when the prospect of replacing Shurmur was brought up, but didn't Castillo just get let go?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 51,039
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 51,039 |
I hope that Heckert stays. I think that he's done a quality job, and has built a solid, young team.
The coaching staff controls their own destiny at this point. Get this thing turned around and win 6 or 7 games, and they'll almost certainly be retained. Wind up with 4 wins and no one's job is safe.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Quote:
Here's the one major difference facing this organization as of today; the owner has a vested interest in winning. That alone has to mean something. Again I refer to accountability. Now there is some, before there was none.
On the football side, maybe Shurmur ekes out 6-7 more wins and you'll get some stability. If he doesn't, you can look for a HC change, and we all know what that is likely to mean. As much as I'd like to see some continuity for a change, a new HC will want his people in here, including coaches, player types, etc. If we go that route, we'll be fortunate to keep the cream of our thin crop. On the other hand, maybe Haslam realizes that there needs to be some stability and will insist on it even if he does let the HC go. Who knows? Right now, I just want to see us win the majority of our remaining games, then see what happens after that.
Randy always tried to make the team a winner. He tried to hire to help the team win and I think Holmgren actually did a good job of getting the FO in solid shape.
Banner im not so sold on from reading some of the reports. Him and Heckert didnt see eye to eye on alot of things and probably helped him to leave Philly for the wasteland that was Cleveland because he was told by Holmgren we are going to build through the draft.
Go out and get me some players.
Reports from Philly said Banner likes to lowball his own players and overpay in FA.
I know for some people that is perfect, but I really think what Heckert was doing was the correct way and was looking forward to next year being a major break out year.
Of course we may still have that break out year but no one will remember who put all the peices in place and actually stood their ground to ensure the foundation was built correctly.
Mike leaving doesnt bother me much he's as someone else said pretty much done he was going to do anyway.
Im going to hope the Browns keep playing better and get up to my called victory total of 5 wins. Then I guess Ill have to wait 2-3 years (haslams estimated set back time) and take a look at how things are going.
Its amazing how a year with an 0-5 start then a great feel good victroy can now feel so long with the major amount of uncertianty to it.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Quote:
[Banner] and Heckert didnt see eye to eye on alot of things and probably helped him to leave Philly
Prove it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Speaking of Heckert, he reportedly does not believe that he'll be back next year (mentioned by MKC here), and apparently has been looking around for a place to land since the sale was announced in August. If this is the case, what are the odds that it has anything to do with his reluctance to make any major roster moves during preseason and into the regular season?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Quote:
what are the odds that it has anything to do with [Heckert's] reluctance to make any major roster moves during preseason and into the regular season?
He's worried that he will lose his job, so he doesn't do his job? That doesn't make any sense. Also, what major roster moves would you have him make in preseason and into the regular season?
The wackiness is in full force right now.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363 |
Quote:
Speaking of Heckert, he reportedly does not believe that he'll be back next year (mentioned by MKC here), and apparently has been looking around for a place to land since the sale was announced in August. If this is the case, what are the odds that it has anything to do with his reluctance to make any major roster moves during preseason and into the regular season?
IMO this writer is jumping to conclusions. Sure Heckert put out the feelers in August, but do you blame him? He is covering his but in advance just in case something happens. No where does it say he thinks he is next, more on the lines of could be. He knows how these things work, and if the team does not improve by the end of the season, he definately has to be held accountable at some level. But reading Haslam, and seeing him speak, I can't see him removing a very good GM for no reason except to replace him with someone he knows.
Heckert has found guys like Winn, Skrine, Robertson, among others at low draft picks or undrafted. His top draft picks are performing well, I believe you can see the upgrade in talent over the past two years.
We also have to look at the angle of maybe Heckert wants to leave now that Holmgren is gone. I myself think that if the team keeps improving and his picks pan out, he will not be replaced, unless a new coach such as Cowher or Gruden come in and want to have control over player picks.
I think the best thing to do is to let the season play out, then keep the good and replace the bad.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Quote:
Quote:
[Banner] and Heckert didnt see eye to eye on alot of things and probably helped him to leave Philly
Prove it.
It would take me a while to hunt down but on this board somewhere is post about how Banner and Heckert didnt see eye to eye how Banner handled players and contracts. This it would stand to reason that if someone come knocking on your door with the option to be in charge of the roster moves it probably helped him (heckert) leave philly to come to this wasteland.
(EDIT:Think about it we either offered him more money or more control, or a chance to work in a system you believe in and to make happen or a combo of any of those. He was already GM of a very good team.)
Dinners almost ready so maybe after I eat I will do a search for it but it was all spelled out how they clashed abit while in Philly.
Last edited by NickBrownsFan; 10/16/12 08:36 PM.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Quote:
Quote:
Speaking of Heckert, he reportedly does not believe that he'll be back next year (mentioned by MKC here), and apparently has been looking around for a place to land since the sale was announced in August. If this is the case, what are the odds that it has anything to do with his reluctance to make any major roster moves during preseason and into the regular season?
IMO this writer is jumping to conclusions. Sure Heckert put out the feelers in August, but do you blame him? He is covering his but in advance just in case something happens. No where does it say he thinks he is next, more on the lines of could be. He knows how these things work, and if the team does not improve by the end of the season, he definately has to be held accountable at some level. But reading Haslam, and seeing him speak, I can't see him removing a very good GM for no reason except to replace him with someone he knows.
Heckert has found guys like Winn, Skrine, Robertson, among others at low draft picks or undrafted. His top draft picks are performing well, I believe you can see the upgrade in talent over the past two years.
We also have to look at the angle of maybe Heckert wants to leave now that Holmgren is gone. I myself think that if the team keeps improving and his picks pan out, he will not be replaced, unless a new coach such as Cowher or Gruden come in and want to have control over player picks.
I think the best thing to do is to let the season play out, then keep the good and replace the bad.
I hope you are right. I dont see a big name coach comeing here. I just dont see it. Cowher I dont want and Gruden is to happy praising QB's so I dont want him either.
I want a guy that is on the field now be it an assistant or a fired head coach.
Of couse we already did that route a couple times.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Quote:
He's worried that he will lose his job, so he doesn't do his job? That doesn't make any sense.
I'd liken it to being told that your position or department at your company is being eliminated in three months (or some other short time duration). You're not going to just stop showing up to work, but your heart might not be into it as much as it would be otherwise. If he thinks he's gone come January, he may not be as zealous in putting this franchise in the best possible position to win.
I'm not saying he did or did not do anything in particular. Just wondering aloud.
Quote:
Also, what major roster moves would you have him make in preseason and into the regular season?
Personally, I'm pretty much fine with how the roster was handled. Some people aren't though. It's been questioned as to why we didn't pursue a veteran wideout, or why we kept Marecic over Smelley at the FB spot, or why we have four RBs on the roster but haven't played one of them at all, or why we didn't cut Fujita in the offseason. Again, not my questions.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
While you are inordinately happy about Holmgren leaving I'd be willing to bet that the Joe Banner regime may make you less than ecstatic.
Be careful what you wish for.......
Entirely possible. Tough negotiators are often tough to swallow for the fans. He could be a hit like he was in Philly, or he could come here and bomb, but at least there's a history of success. One mantra that the fans have voiced consistently over the year's is that a reason we've failed is the lack of historically successful people at the top of our pyramid. We've come up craps most of the time with rookie shot-callers. I'm ready for a guy with a historically proven record of accomplishment to take a stab.
I don't have to like Banner. If he brings to us the kind of mojo that he helped bring the Eagles I'd be extremely pleased. I'm anxious to see how this thing progresses.
In a perfect world I'd like to see Heckert stick. I'd understand if he had to go as well. I really want Shurmur to turn the corner. I feel as though in many ways the offense is progressing, yet I don't know how much of that is Shurmur or Chilly. Regardless, I've seen receivers blowing open like I haven't seen around here in a while, and if you really look at the group, they aren't special. Not even close. The other side of the coin is that he confounds me with some of his play-calling at times. I'm questioning his game-management, and in his second year that's a very bad thing. Such was one of the great failings of Romeo, who has taken his midas touch to the Chiefs and transformed them into the 1-5 juggernaut that you see today, hehe.
I dunno...in the big, BIG, BIG BIG picture if wiping out an entire regime means wiping away the losing taint that we've experience from stewards named Lerner, then by all means...drop the axe. There are parts here that work but the first step in victory is sacrifice, to borrow a phrase, so I'd understand if it's time.
Holmgren hasn't lived up to the billing, but I would have liked to give him the chance to finish out the year as an audition to stay, not just as a transitional guy. The odds aren't good, though. He earned his way out. Nice try, no dice.
This was an inevitability, and the result of a blessing.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,861
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,861 |
In retrospect, Holmgrens first move was not correct, and he paid for it.
He retained Mangini, and that was a dumb thing to do.
He needed to clean house, and Mangini, was a mess in the place.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!…. That did not age well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Quote:
Quote:
While you are inordinately happy about Holmgren leaving I'd be willing to bet that the Joe Banner regime may make you less than ecstatic.
Be careful what you wish for.......
Entirely possible. Tough negotiators are often tough to swallow for the fans. He could be a hit like he was in Philly, or he could come here and bomb, but at least there's a history of success. One mantra that the fans have voiced consistently over the year's is that a reason we've failed is the lack of historically successful people at the top of our pyramid. We've come up craps most of the time with rookie shot-callers. I'm ready for a guy with a historically proven record of accomplishment to take a stab.
I don't have to like Banner. If he brings to us the kind of mojo that he helped bring the Eagles I'd be extremely pleased. I'm anxious to see how this thing progresses.
In a perfect world I'd like to see Heckert stick. I'd understand if he had to go as well. I really want Shurmur to turn the corner. I feel as though in many ways the offense is progressing, yet I don't know how much of that is Shurmur or Chilly. Regardless, I've seen receivers blowing open like I haven't seen around here in a while, and if you really look at the group, they aren't special. Not even close. The other side of the coin is that he confounds me with some of his play-calling at times. I'm questioning his game-management, and in his second year that's a very bad thing. Such was one of the great failings of Romeo, who has taken his midas touch to the Chiefs and transformed them into the 1-5 juggernaut that you see today, hehe.
I dunno...in the big, BIG, BIG BIG picture if wiping out an entire regime means wiping away the losing taint that we've experience from stewards named Lerner, then by all means...drop the axe. There are parts here that work but the first step in victory is sacrifice, to borrow a phrase, so I'd understand if it's time.
Holmgren hasn't lived up to the billing, but I would have liked to give him the chance to finish out the year as an audition to stay, not just as a transitional guy. The odds aren't good, though. He earned his way out. Nice try, no dice.
This was an inevitability, and the result of a blessing.
We'll see about the blessing for sure.
holmgren I think had about run his course and I think alot agree.
shurmer I think has about 50% support on the board but only because we are, much as you, unsure about him yet. I personally want him to give OC to Chilly. I do think it would make a differnce much as you do.
Heckert is the key. If Banner is the reason we lose him then, and unlike you I dont understand why you would let a man like that go, (hes been pretty solid in building this team) then Haslam is no different then Lerner. IMHO
I get the you want to start with your own guys stuff but we finally had something good in place and waited the years to see it. I dont want a restart anymore.
I hope I can come to like Banner, and him and Heckert can come to working terms.
Banner atm feels like a snake oil salesman to me. I hope he proves me wrong.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186 |
j/c... mostly.
'Toad, you bring up a point that I'd like to address. Let's call it: "Short-term pain v. Long-term gain."
If any Dawgs here have read me over the years, they'll know that I'm in the "Continuity Camp." In each of the previous regimes, I've always been able to see SOME promise- usually just before the (inevitable, predictable, once-every-3-years) blow-up. It's been maddening in the extreme to be part of a fan base that now assumes that "Groundhog Day" is just a mere 2 seasons around the corner... and yet, I still follow this team.
What's that cliche'd definition of 'insanity?'
My hope is that Haslam is savvy, nuanced, and astute enough to perhaps jettison only the parts that aren't working at season's end, and keep those players and staff that have shown competence, promise and professionalism. In other words: discard the "new broom sweeps clean" paradigm for the "little broom" approach.
That's how I'd probably approach this situation, if I were Haslam. But that's just me. "Why? you might ask.
-Because I've been on the planet long enough to realize that "my guys" aren't the only "competent guys" to be found in the game. Good people are found everywhere... and there just might already be some good ones in place here at 76 Groza. I'd do my 'due dilligence,' keep what works, and replace what doesn't.
In that way, I'd be able to augment what has already been established, fix what isn't working, and try to establish a sense of continuity going forward.
Minimal turmoil.
Work with available resources.
Build... instead of "rebuild."
Is Jimmy Haslem savvy and nuanced enough to take such an approach? Such has been rare in the history of NFL ownership changes. Most of these billionaires fit a particular profile of being certain of their own 'rightness.' Would he keep some, and let others go? We can only wait and see what stripe this new guy will paint himself with as his first brush strokes dry upon the wall of Cleveland Browns history.
My guess is yet another TOTAL RE-BOOT.... which will entice me to join Otto55. Why do I guess this? For one simple reason: I've never seen it before in all the years that I've followed Pro Football.
But then again- I never before saw a city lose its team and regain it- with its history, name, colors, and team history intact.
If this International Body of Fans can see their original name, colors, uniform, history and "Hall of Legends" resurrected from The Dead.... well- anything could happen.
I guess time will only tell.
.02,
Clem
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Quote:
j/c... mostly.
'Toad, you bring up a point that I'd like to address. Let's call it: "Short-term pain v. Long-term gain."
If any Dawgs here have read me over the years, they'll know that I'm in the "Continuity Camp." In each of the previous regimes, I've always been able to see SOME promise- usually just before the (inevitable, predictable, once-every-3-years) blow-up. It's been maddening in the extreme to be part of a fan base that now assumes that "Groundhog Day" is just a mere 2 seasons around the corner... and yet, I still follow this team.
What's that cliche'd definition of 'insanity?'
My hope is that Haslam is savvy, nuanced, and astute enough to perhaps jettison only the parts that aren't working at season's end, and keep those players and staff that have shown competence, promise and professionalism. In other words: discard the "new broom sweeps clean" paradigm for the "little broom" approach.
That's how I'd probably approach this situation, if I were Haslam. But that's just me. "Why? you might ask.
-Because I've been on the planet long enough to realize that "my guys" aren't the only "competent guys" to be found in the game. Good people are found everywhere... and there just might already be some good ones in place here at 76 Groza. I'd do my 'due dilligence,' keep what works, and replace what doesn't.
In that way, I'd be able to augment what has already been established, fix what isn't working, and try to establish a sense of continuity going forward.
Minimal turmoil.
Work with available resources.
Build... instead of "rebuild."
Is Jimmy Haslem savvy and nuanced enough to take such an approach? Such has been rare in the history of NFL ownership changes. Most of these billionaires fit a particular profile of being certain of their own 'rightness.' Would he keep some, and let others go? We can only wait and see what stripe this new guy will paint himself with as his first brush strokes dry upon the wall of Cleveland Browns history.
My guess is yet another TOTAL RE-BOOT.... which will entice me to join Otto55. Why do I guess this? For one simple reason: I've never seen it before in all the years that I've followed Pro Football.
But then again- I never before saw a city lose its team and regain it- with its history, name, colors, and team history intact.
If this International Body of Fans can see their original name, colors, uniform, history and "Hall of Legends" resurrected from The Dead.... well- anything could happen.
I guess time will only tell.
.02,
Clem
Nice post.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Well, we wanted to see what would happen when the inevitable came, which was the removal of Holmgren. Can't wait to read what certain posters here have to say in the morning... 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 80,586
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 80,586 |
Quote:
Entirely possible. Tough negotiators are often tough to swallow for the fans. He could be a hit like he was in Philly, or he could come here and bomb, but at least there's a history of success.
Are you talking about pre-2006?
He aquired young FA's such as Rickey Waters, Troy Vincent and Kevin Turner. He front loaded contracts and stretched them over the life of the contract so they were very friendly moreso towards the end of them. The 25-27 year old types that had a lot of life left in them. A pay as you go system as it were.
But that's when teams were very cap constrained. And in the FA market, as with now, you had to overspend. Very few teams could compete or outbid the Eagles the way Banner structured these contracts due to heavy salary cap constraints. He also was one of the pioneers in in "incentive bonuses", that were sometimes very unrealistic allowing cap space to roll over to the next year.
But that was early Joe Banner......
The 2006 CBA raised the cap limit high enough that teams weren't so salary constrained. At that point they had caught on to Banners ways and could compete by a players worth, not strictly based on their cap constarints.
But then, after 2006 with the landscape changing, Banner decided he would put a value on a players worth, not "just handle the cap". He did the exact thing I've seen you describe not liking. That is to settle for marginal players, rather than try to get the most talent you can get within your cap space.
Prime examples of this were not paying Sheldon Brown in his prime and settling for Ellis Hobbs. By letting Brian Dawkins go and settling for Quintin Demps. While many in the league were getting the most talent they could assemble under the cap, Banner set a firm dollar amount on exactly what he thought players were worth and no longer had the cap advantage to make that work.
There have been reports that the only way the DeSean Jackson’s deal only got done was once Banner had been shoved aside. With the consistant rise in the CBA each year, now more than ever, no team has a huge advantage in holding all the cards by formulating contracts that make it impossible for other teams to meet nearly the extent the Eagles had under Banner prior to the 2006 CBA.
And if you look at the list of success versus failures of Banner both pre-2006 and post-2006, I think the moves made by the Eagles make that evident up until the time he no longer controled the situation.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Quote:
[Banner] and Heckert didnt see eye to eye on alot of things and probably helped him to leave Philly
Prove it.
http://www.cantonrep.com/browns/x493671042/The-Jimmy-Haslam-scuttlebutt
The Jimmy Haslam scuttlebutt
By Steve Doerschuk
Some of the scuttlebutt following Jimmy Haslam back from Chicago ...
• Joe Banner and Tom Heckert worked together in Philadelphia but weren’t necessarily best friends.
• Banner is the new CEO. Haslam and Banner bring a little sweet and sour. The owner exudes positive energy and passion. The CEO is the cold, calculating businessman.
• Haslam is serious about letting Pat Shurmur “play his way” into the job for 2013.
• Brandon Weeden’s progress might have taken a hit had Haslam and Mike Holmgren not worked it out so that Holmgren stays. Haslam suggested Holmgren will be a big part of the operation beyond the end of the regular season, just not into next spring.
• Holmgren knows NFL quarterbacking inside and out and has been one of the really important voices in Weeden’s ear.
Holmgren has been very careful not to step on coaches’ toes, but he has been very diligent about answering Weeden’s questions inluding ones Weeden doesn’t think to ask.
• Changes in the uniforms and the stadium are in play. The helmets will stay the same.
• If Shurmur doesn’t stay on as head coach, a concerted effort might be made to find a new coach who projects as a superstar, even though his current résumé might be relatively light.
• • •
Some advice for Mr. Haslam ...
No matter how intense your three-month study of the situation, you haven’t been around long enough to understand this as fact:
Browns fans are beyond sick of losing ... “exhausted” is the term I think Randy Lerner correctly used.
The top priority should be exploring ways to make the current nucleus work. Those parts of the nucleus that are deemed viable should be kept. With luck, there are lots of those parts.
“Blowing it up” should be the last option.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
Quote:
Entirely possible. Tough negotiators are often tough to swallow for the fans. He could be a hit like he was in Philly, or he could come here and bomb, but at least there's a history of success.
I have a buddy who lives in Philly and is a native Philadelphian. He tells me that while he (Banner) would be considered a business side success he was not popular with the fans, players or, if the scuttlebutt is true, the coaching staff.
Don't know if that will replicate itself here but ya gotta wonder about a guy that wears out his welcome with all segments of the native population.
I hope he's just what the doctor ordered and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until he gives me a reason not to. But, as I said earlier, I don't think I'd be doing cartwheels just yet.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,563
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,563 |
Quote:
Quote:
[Banner] and Heckert didnt see eye to eye on alot of things and probably helped him to leave Philly
Prove it.
Not for nothing, I was listening to Bruce Drennens "all bets are off" TV show yesterday for a few moments and he was mentioned that Heckert doesn't feel he's got much of a chance to remain as GM under Banner. He mentioned that he got that directly from Heckert so again this is a FWIW kinda comment by a sports talking head.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,563
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,563 |
Quote:
Quote:
Entirely possible. Tough negotiators are often tough to swallow for the fans. He could be a hit like he was in Philly, or he could come here and bomb, but at least there's a history of success.
I have a buddy who lives in Philly and is a native Philadelphian. He tells me that while he (Banner) would be considered a business side success he was not popular with the fans, players or, if the scuttlebutt is true, the coaching staff.
Don't know if that will replicate itself here but ya gotta wonder about a guy that wears out his welcome with all segments of the native population.
I hope he's just what the doctor ordered and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until he gives me a reason not to. But, as I said earlier, I don't think I'd be doing cartwheels just yet.
It wouldn't surprise me to find out that Haslam eventually takes the lead on Football operations over Banner and he leaves Banner to run the business side of things.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
I have a buddy who lives in Philly and is a native Philadelphian. He tells me that while he (Banner) would be considered a business side success he was not popular with the fans, players or, if the scuttlebutt is true, the coaching staff.
he was the guy that decided when it was time to cut ties with fan favorites, that the asking price for certain players was too much, and the guy out in front of the negotiations that they eventually settled on.
his job is to be the bad guy.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 80,586
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 80,586 |
Yeah for a while. Until the ever increased salary cap numbers that sort of put him out of touch after the 2006 CBA was settled upon.
After that? Not so much........ If you lok above you can see some of the players he let go and who he replaced them with that really hurt the teams talent level.
Some time after that, he was.... uh.... well, he didn't do that job anymore and Reid was put in charge of such things.
Managing the cap? Fine and dandy. Making wage and personnel decisions? No thank you......
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Managing the cap? Fine and dandy. Making wage and personnel decisions? No thank you......
we need a guy to make personnel decisions, yes. however, as far as the wage structure of a franchise, that is part of managing the cap.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Weren't the best of friends or didn't see eye to eye?
There are many people who work together who aren't friends or don't like each other. But if they aren't rowing in the same direction, that's a problem.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,842
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,842 |
One has to wonder what advice which owners gave him and how much Haslam listens to any of them.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 80,586
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 80,586 |
Not to try and nit pick here.... But when your team is a contender and you DO have the cap space to sign key secondary personnel, you don't end up making decisions like not paying Sheldon Brown in his prime and settling for Ellis Hobbs. By letting Brian Dawkins go and settling for Quintin Demps.
Once the 2006 CBA was signed, the cap space went up rapidly for all NFL teams where as Philly had quite a cap advantage due to some very smart signing bonus manipulation by Banner before that agreement was ratified. I actually consider him a pioneer at the entire signing bonus structure thing.
I do agree that prior to the 2006 CBA being agreed upon, Banner did a fantastic job. But once everyone caught onto structuring those signing bonuses and had more cap space, he lost his edge. And his personnel decisions reflect that IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,580
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,580 |
You're telling us he was in charge of personnel in Philly.That I didn't know.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
You're telling us he was in charge of personnel in Philly.That I didn't know.
Just to make sure things are accurate, Joe Banner was NOT in charge of personnel in Philly. He did handle negotiations until Roseman took that over, but specifically stating he was in charge of personnel isn't accurate. I've seen nothing which would indicate he's going to have a role in personnel here.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,580
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,580 |
"you don't end up making decisions like not paying Sheldon Brown in his prime and settling for Ellis Hobbs. By letting Brian Dawkins go and settling for Quintin Demps. "
Although Pit never directly said Banner was in charge of personnel,the above statement certainly implies it.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Quote:
Banner has a reputation for being a salary-cap guru and a tough contract negotiator.
Great. As if it wasn't already tough to get FA's to come here.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Quote:
Weren't the best of friends or didn't see eye to eye?
There are many people who work together who aren't friends or don't like each other. But if they aren't rowing in the same direction, that's a problem.
Thats how I feel. I think in Philly from what Ive read they were trying to move in 2 different directions.
I caught a few minutes of the Banner presser today (hope someone gets a link up to it) and Banner did say
We will focus on keeping our guys and building through the Draft. We may get some other FA's as well but that only makes sense once you can actually use those guys. If you sign a FA and the team is not ready then by the time his contract is up he will no longer help you.
Or something to that effect. Now that sounds more like the company line we've heard Mike and Tom say now for 3 years. Makes me feel a little more hope that Heckert wont be gone then I had yesterday.
Of course they could just be marching in step for now before ducking down an alley because they have a bomb at the end of the parade route to blow the whole thing up.
We have to keep the fans happy this year. Its all about the fans experance at the game.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,850 |
I just don't trust a guy who reminds me of a naked mole rat 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren Officially Gone
|
|
