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One question, who is out there right now that can do a better job going forward than Heckert has done so far?
Absolutely Nobody.
It is possible that there is somebody out there who could do better... but the odds are that most people would do a whole lot worse
Very true.
Let me restate my view: There is Absolutely Nobody out there that is a Slam-Dunk Guarantee to even be As Good, much less Better.
It sure as hell ain't the Browns hating Lombardi. 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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One question, who is out there right now that can do a better job going forward than Heckert has done so far?
Absolutely Nobody.
There was probably a time where Ozzie Newsome wasn't considered to be what he became...
So I'm sure there are few.. I can't name them, but then, I'm not digging around other teams to find that gem. It might be someone on staff already that came from Philly that Banner knows..
Did you notice how much we AREN'T hearing from Heckert. It's almost like he's not even in the building. The silence is deafening..
What bothers me is all the talk that heckert is out looking and sending feelers all over the league for a new job.. I've heard he denies it, but we all know that when there is smoke, there is likely to be fire.
#GMSTRONG
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Funny thing about Ozzie is that if you go back through all of the Ravens drafts, they missed a lot in the first 3 rounds.. but when they hit, they hit big.
The vast majority of their 2nd and 3rd round picks were gone in 2-3 years.. hard to find any that lasted beyond year 4...
yebat' Putin
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Funny thing about Ozzie is that if you go back through all of the Ravens drafts, they missed a lot in the first 3 rounds.. but when they hit, they hit big.
The vast majority of their 2nd and 3rd round picks were gone in 2-3 years.. hard to find any that lasted beyond year 4...
I wasn't aware of that. interesting.., well, all I know is they keep winning so somebody is doing something right down there.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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What bothers me is all the talk that heckert is out looking and sending feelers all over the league for a new job.
This was a rumor started in August and has been unsubstantiated since.
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Did you notice how much we AREN'T hearing from Heckert. It's almost like he's not even in the building. The silence is deafening.
Just for fun, do a search on how much news there's been on Banner since he took office. We're not hearing from anyone, because there's nothing to hear other than the roster move of Stephens to IR and Hall Davis to the PS. I wouldn't make too much out of nothing.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Did you notice how much we AREN'T hearing from Heckert. It's almost like he's not even in the building. The silence is deafening.
Just for fun, do a search on how much news there's been on Banner since he took office. We're not hearing from anyone, because there's nothing to hear other than the roster move of Stephens to IR and Hall Davis to the PS. I wouldn't make too much out of nothing.
Not only that, but Heckert has said his piece. He wants to stay and see this thing through.
Nothing else to be said, and nothing left to do but back up the desire with performance.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Did you notice how much we AREN'T hearing from Heckert. It's almost like he's not even in the building. The silence is deafening.
Just for fun, do a search on how much news there's been on Banner since he took office. We're not hearing from anyone, because there's nothing to hear other than the roster move of Stephens to IR and Hall Davis to the PS. I wouldn't make too much out of nothing.
Not only that, but Heckert has said his piece. He wants to stay and see this thing through.
Nothing else to be said, and nothing left to do but back up the desire with performance.
I imagine they're immersed in whatever they may be trying to work on before the trade deadline. They may end up doing nothing, but I'm sure they're working on something.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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No doubt... or, even more simply, they're just more focused working on working - whatever it is.
Public campaigning time is done.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Funny thing about Ozzie is that if you go back through all of the Ravens drafts, they missed a lot in the first 3 rounds.. but when they hit, they hit big.
The vast majority of their 2nd and 3rd round picks were gone in 2-3 years.. hard to find any that lasted beyond year 4...
I wasn't aware of that. interesting.., well, all I know is they keep winning so somebody is doing something right down there.
I apologize, all of the ones I read as being gone in 3, were actually gone in 4.. but the fact remains the vast majority of their round 1-3 picks, never make it past their first contract.
1996 - Ogden and Ray Lewis in the first, DeRon Jenkins in the 2nd (Gone in 4 years) No more picks until the 5th
1997 - Boulware in the first Jamie Sharper in the 2nd, played 5 years then put in the expansion draft and picked up by the Texans, Kim Herring in the 2nd (Gone in 4 years), Jay Graham in the 3rd, (Gone in 3 years)
1998 - Starks in the first round (Gone in 4 years), Patrick Johnson in the 2nd, (Gone in 4 years)
1999 - McAlister in the 1st, no more picks until 4th
2000 - Jamal Lewis in the 1st, Travis Taylor in the 1st (Gone in 4 years), Chris Redman in the 3rd, (Gone in 4 years)
2001 - Heap in the 1st, Gary Baxter in the 2nd (Gone in 4 years), Casey Rabach in the 3rd (Gone in 4 years)
2002 - Ed Reed in the 1st, Anthony Weaver in the 2nd (Gone in 4 years)
2003 - Suggs in the first, Boller in the first, (made it a struggling 6 years), Musa Smith in the 3rd (Gone in 5 years)
2004 - Dwan Edwards in the 2nd (Major injury problems), Devard Darlin in the 3rd (Gone in 4 years)
2005 - Mark Clayton in the 1st, Dan Cody in the 2nd (Gone in 3 years), Adam Terry in the 2nd (Gone in 5 years)
yebat' Putin
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What bothers me is all the talk that heckert is out looking and sending feelers all over the league for a new job.
This was a rumor started in August and has been unsubstantiated since.
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Did you notice how much we AREN'T hearing from Heckert. It's almost like he's not even in the building. The silence is deafening.
Just for fun, do a search on how much news there's been on Banner since he took office. We're not hearing from anyone, because there's nothing to hear other than the roster move of Stephens to IR and Hall Davis to the PS. I wouldn't make too much out of nothing.
To be fair, Banner has probably been busy due to his fathers death recently so, maybe there hasn't been anything to talk about for that reason.
But yeah, you are right, virtually nothing other than roster moves, Post game pressers and stuff about the upcoming game. Back office stuff is quiet,.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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To be fair, Banner has probably been busy due to his fathers death recently so, maybe there hasn't been anything to talk about for that reason.
Oh, c'mon.. .it's not like he has to dig the hole himself. 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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To be fair, Banner has probably been busy due to his fathers death recently so, maybe there hasn't been anything to talk about for that reason.
Oh, c'mon.. .it's not like he has to dig the hole himself.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I'd be willing to bet that Banner is in the office and back to work. Not saying the loss of his faster wasn't devastating, just that I doubt he's sitting at home grieving, or packing up boxes to take to Goodwill.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Funny thing about Ozzie is that if you go back through all of the Ravens drafts, they missed a lot in the first 3 rounds.. but when they hit, they hit big.
The vast majority of their 2nd and 3rd round picks were gone in 2-3 years.. hard to find any that lasted beyond year 4...
I wasn't aware of that. interesting.., well, all I know is they keep winning so somebody is doing something right down there.
I apologize, all of the ones I read as being gone in 3, were actually gone in 4.. but the fact remains the vast majority of their round 1-3 picks, never make it past their first contract.
1996 - Ogden and Ray Lewis in the first, DeRon Jenkins in the 2nd (Gone in 4 years) No more picks until the 5th
1997 - Boulware in the first Jamie Sharper in the 2nd, played 5 years then put in the expansion draft and picked up by the Texans, Kim Herring in the 2nd (Gone in 4 years), Jay Graham in the 3rd, (Gone in 3 years)
1998 - Starks in the first round (Gone in 4 years), Patrick Johnson in the 2nd, (Gone in 4 years)
1999 - McAlister in the 1st, no more picks until 4th
2000 - Jamal Lewis in the 1st, Travis Taylor in the 1st (Gone in 4 years), Chris Redman in the 3rd, (Gone in 4 years)
2001 - Heap in the 1st, Gary Baxter in the 2nd (Gone in 4 years), Casey Rabach in the 3rd (Gone in 4 years)
2002 - Ed Reed in the 1st, Anthony Weaver in the 2nd (Gone in 4 years)
2003 - Suggs in the first, Boller in the first, (made it a struggling 6 years), Musa Smith in the 3rd (Gone in 5 years)
2004 - Dwan Edwards in the 2nd (Major injury problems), Devard Darlin in the 3rd (Gone in 4 years)
2005 - Mark Clayton in the 1st, Dan Cody in the 2nd (Gone in 3 years), Adam Terry in the 2nd (Gone in 5 years)
Yeah, only 4 likely HOFers and 4 more Pro Bowlers LOL.
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That was my point.. when they hit, they hit big, but they miss just as much as anybody else...
yebat' Putin
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If I had to choose today between Ozzie and Heckert, I think I go with Heckert. He's had some misses, who doesn't, but I really like his top tier guys, and I love the work he does on the later rounds and FAs. Excellent, IMHO.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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If I had to choose today between Ozzie and Heckert,
Am I the only one that read that real fast and it read as Ozzie and Harriet? 
yebat' Putin
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I'd be willing to bet that Banner is in the office and back to work. Not saying the loss of his faster wasn't devastating, just that I doubt he's sitting at home grieving, or packing up boxes to take to Goodwill.
I don't doubt that for a second.,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Funny thing about Ozzie is that if you go back through all of the Ravens drafts, they missed a lot in the first 3 rounds.. but when they hit, they hit big.
The vast majority of their 2nd and 3rd round picks were gone in 2-3 years.. hard to find any that lasted beyond year 4...
I wasn't aware of that. interesting.., well, all I know is they keep winning so somebody is doing something right down there.
I apologize, all of the ones I read as being gone in 3, were actually gone in 4.. but the fact remains the vast majority of their round 1-3 picks, never make it past their first contract.
1996 - Ogden and Ray Lewis in the first, DeRon Jenkins in the 2nd (Gone in 4 years) No more picks until the 5th
1997 - Boulware in the first Jamie Sharper in the 2nd, played 5 years then put in the expansion draft and picked up by the Texans, Kim Herring in the 2nd (Gone in 4 years), Jay Graham in the 3rd, (Gone in 3 years)
1998 - Starks in the first round (Gone in 4 years), Patrick Johnson in the 2nd, (Gone in 4 years)
1999 - McAlister in the 1st, no more picks until 4th
2000 - Jamal Lewis in the 1st, Travis Taylor in the 1st (Gone in 4 years), Chris Redman in the 3rd, (Gone in 4 years)
2001 - Heap in the 1st, Gary Baxter in the 2nd (Gone in 4 years), Casey Rabach in the 3rd (Gone in 4 years)
2002 - Ed Reed in the 1st, Anthony Weaver in the 2nd (Gone in 4 years)
2003 - Suggs in the first, Boller in the first, (made it a struggling 6 years), Musa Smith in the 3rd (Gone in 5 years)
2004 - Dwan Edwards in the 2nd (Major injury problems), Devard Darlin in the 3rd (Gone in 4 years)
2005 - Mark Clayton in the 1st, Dan Cody in the 2nd (Gone in 3 years), Adam Terry in the 2nd (Gone in 5 years)
Yeah, only 4 likely HOFers and 4 more Pro Bowlers LOL.
And they still haven't made it back to the SB.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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One question, who is out there right now that can do a better job going forward than Heckert has done so far? If Haslam and Banner can't answer that question with three viable candidates to bring in to interview for fit, then it would be stupid, completely stupid to replace Heckert.
Exactly.
And who knows the current personnel better than Heckert?
#gmstrong
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Am I the only one that read that real fast and it read as Ozzie and Harriet?
Yes, and you may be one of the few of us old enough to remember them. 
#gmstrong
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Getting rid of Heckert would be a stupid move. Replacing him with Lombardi would be a stupendously stupid move.
#GMSTRONG
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Holmgrem may not have seen cut out for the job. Hopefully Haslett will have a better man for the job after 2012!
September to Remember!
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Many on here are bashing Holmgren as having failed at his job while at the same time praising the improvement and progress of the team as we watch them getting better as the season progresses.
Am I one of the few who credit Holmgren for setting this whole thing up in the first place?
#gmstrong
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Many on here are bashing Holmgren as having failed at his job while at the same time praising the improvement and progress of the team as we watch them getting better as the season progresses.
Am I one of the few who credit Holmgren for setting this whole thing up in the first place?
No you aren't the only one. Holmgren doesn't come here, neither does Heckert.. without heckert we don't have the talent that's been brought in.
Jury is still out on Shurmur but personally, I like the guy.. we'll see.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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No you aren't the only one. Holmgren doesn't come here, neither does Heckert.. without heckert we don't have the talent that's been brought in.
Then without Randy Lerner we don't have Holmgren. But without Al Lerner we don't have Randy. If it weren't for Model moving the team to Baltimore, we don't have Al.
Am I the only one who is going to give Art Model his props for putting Heckert in place?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Many on here are bashing Holmgren as having failed at his job while at the same time praising the improvement and progress of the team as we watch them getting better as the season progresses.
Am I one of the few who credit Holmgren for setting this whole thing up in the first place?
Yes....you are.
BUT- you have me 'on your six', ddub.
Stories like this are layered.... and The Truth often lies in the layers, once they're peeled off.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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No you aren't the only one. Holmgren doesn't come here, neither does Heckert.. without heckert we don't have the talent that's been brought in.
Then without Randy Lerner we don't have Holmgren. But without Al Lerner we don't have Randy. If it weren't for Model moving the team to Baltimore, we don't have Al.
Am I the only one who is going to give Art Model his props for putting Heckert in place?
I "got" the grin at the end of your post, 'Toad.... so don't think I ain't wise to The Game.... hehehe-
Seriously, I Do align with ddubz on this one. Holmy may not have been Uber-exec, but a certain amount of the potential we now see in Our Team really MUST be attributed to the hires/choices that Holmy made.
It's one of the reasons why I'd like to see minimal changes made at the end of this year ( based upon what we've seen so far-)... if changes are made at all.
I'm still not sold on Shurmer, to be "Shur".... but I'm also aware of how young he is at his position.
Jauron/Chilly: Game plans seems to be keeping us competitive all season long.
Support staff: The players seem up to the job, know their assignments, and come to play on Game Day. Beyond that, I don't know what Browns Fans expected for this team, at this point in their evolution. Some of the visible improvements fall upon the players themselves. Some of them fall upon the staff. ALL are being judged because of choices made by higher-up's.
I'm asking these next questions not specifically to you, 'Toad... but generally, to My Fellow Dawgs:
"Is Mike Holmgren responsible for NONE of the advancements we think we see?"
"Is it an 'all or nothing' proposition as you see it?
"Is it possible that Holmy was (potentially) successful in building a Browns infrastructure, while not yet building an immediately successful franchise?"
Some application of nuance must be used before answering any of these questions, because we'll never have all the answers up-front... and neither did Mike.
Daaaaang.... this thread could actually get good, if we decide to play out the "what-if's"....
your resident 'agent provocateur,'
Clemmy
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Surely you wouldn't begrudge me the opportunity to play the role of the sarcastic devil's advocate, would you, Clemmy? That, my friend, is my oldest game. 
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"Is Mike Holmgren responsible for NONE of the advancements we think we see?"
"Is it an 'all or nothing' proposition as you see it?
It's never an all-or-nothing judgement, at least not until the moment of truth when the people making the decisions deem that a person has either done a bad enough job to be relieved of duties, or they've done a good enough job to earn an extension. The world isn't colored black or white but numerous shades of grey.
I have no knowledge of how anyone else may feel, and thus cannot...will not...speak for those who may view Holmgren in the same negative light as I do. I've no doubt that Holmgren did some good things here. Yet he was brought here by an owner who wanted nothing to do with being an owner. Lerner couldn't ever figure out how to make the right moves, and so he has moved on. The role which Holmgren was hired for no longer exists. We had more than a decade of Lerner's running the show and they had precious-little success. They are gone and a different owner is in. Had Holmgren done more...made the right moves...earlier in the process he probably would still have a job, though that's pure speculation with little evidence to back that up.
What if indeed, hehe.
But he didn't. So here we are.
I'm content to let history tell us what kind of job Holmgren did, though I doubt we'll ever know the whole of it. How much was Holm's...how much was Heckert...how much will have been what Mangini did or even Banner...it'll be hard to quantify it all. Holmgren, like Savage, had his hits and his misses. I'd rather have seen a situation where the good so outweighed the bad that the discussion of whether or not he should stay wouldn't be necessary.
As an observer by nature, I've found it quite interesting how much optimism has suddenly filled the board. That optimism colors most of the positive vibes for Holmgren. I suppose it all comes down to each person's independent opinion on where this team really is. I tend to think we're further away than most, or so it appears.
History has shown us that Savage was even less successful than we thought him to be at the time of his demise. Though I'm glad Holmgren is out, I am curious to see how history will reveal him...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Many on here are bashing Holmgren as having failed at his job while at the same time praising the improvement and progress of the team as we watch them getting better as the season progresses.
Am I one of the few who credit Holmgren for setting this whole thing up in the first place?
I'll give him props:
Mike, you made a single good hire in Heckert. The jury is still out on Shurmur, is questionable at this point in time, and will likely be shown the door. You lied about doing a comprehensive search for a top coach, and you lied about the selling of the team. You made generally poor decisions or at least questionable decisions when it came to influencing the QB situation & the drafts. You phoned in your tenure and earned basically four million dollars per win over your time here. You were never fully vested in the job or the organization and completely dismissed the fan base in your farewell speech. You get credit for hiring Heckert, then for being a money grubbing, nepotistic, lazy fat ass beyond that. So from the bottom of my Browns loving heart, thank you, Mike, you ego maniacal blowhard. Not only do I hope the door hits you in the ass on the way out, I hope it knocks you on your smug face.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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