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I think Hanner will act swiftly.
No doubt they are becoming fans of Weeden just like the rest of the world.
They know his shelf life isn't as long as others.
They recognize this.
i think it will take 9 more wins
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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If we can't beat the Colts we know that's not happening.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I posted this in the post game which needs to be stated here to anybody who thinks that keeping this staff is better for the franchise.
When you finish with one of the worst records in the league, how much of a setback can you get from last place?
You get setback five years. So the new FO can bring in "their guys".
Then when it does not work in two years.
Us fans get restless.
Fire everybody.
Rinse, wash, repeat, etc...... 
Prolly two years from perhaps playoff contention with these players and some added pieces. IMO.
If whomever they bring in to replace our wuss of a coach.
Blows up the entire chemistry that is starting to take hold.
( minus some players IMO.)
And brings in his own guys.
Expect another 7 years of crap football.
We are talking about the Browns right?
If it were any other team.
We might make one of those incredible worst to first Cinderalla stories that are fabled to happen to some teams. 
I believe you meant to use purple, because you can't be serious to think that we are a couple years from playoff contention with this staff. You can easily chock up 3 losses this year on coaching alone. Just because we fire the staff doesn't mean that they have to do a 20-30 player turnover. Everybody in the league knows we have the youngest roster in the NFL and with game film can see that the player foundation is there. Shurmur is a coach that manages to not lose as opposed to playing to win. I've not seen one call made from the gut for the win so far this year. He's entirely too heady and trying to outsmart the other sideline, which in turn makes HIM look like the idiot.
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I totaly agree that Shurmur needs to go after this week.
Never said not to fire him.
I have not been a fan of his.
But neither was I on the fire everyone bandwagon that everyone is so quick to jump on like clockwork every two years.
I am so beyond sick and tired of the "groundhog day" situation this team keeps going thru.
Why not, even with a gutless coach, stick out just one of these 5 year plans?
I mean heck. Even Mangini did not get a snowballs chance to complete his team before everyone was screaming to blow it all up.
Remember when we had a punishing running game.
Does anyone have something new and fresh to add that we have not heard before?
What could be worse? I guess I do not know.
But I know it may not make anything better either.
It seems that is the only way we get any positive excitment.
Is to go with the shiny new and unknown all the time.
To use a bad quote.
How's that hopey changey thing working out so far?
Einstein could not even fathom the mathematical improbabilities of the Browns woes.
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J/C
Well, imo I think one play just sealed Pat's fate. 4th down. Time running down in the 4th. Seemed like the browns had some momentum. The browns were lining up to go for it on 4th down. Then they wasted a time out. And then they came out and punted the ball. The camera then showed Haslam. It was a look of disgust. That one play is not the character of this owner.
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My biggest problem with the punt was all about possible field position.
even a pooch would most likely roll into the endzone..ball at the 20..punter angles it out of bounds.......ball at the 20.
It was a 20 yard NET.
Ball at the 40...or ball at the 20.....or first down and rolling. Got to trust your OLINE sooner or later...if you can't get 1 yard with the game on the line.....then you probably deserve to loose.....
Trent was benched for 8 carries and 8 yards.....give him 9 carries for 9 yards...and you very likely win this game IMO.
HACK
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J/C
Well, imo I think one play just sealed Pat's fate. 4th down. Time running down in the 4th. Seemed like the browns had some momentum. The browns were lining up to go for it on 4th down. Then they wasted a time out. And then they came out and punted the ball. The camera then showed Haslam. It was a look of disgust. That one play is not the character of this owner.
I agree with you and Hack below you. This was the worst thing he could have done. I will say this. I dont think it matters how many wins he gets because I dont see him getting beyond the bye week. We cant let Shurmur run/ruin this team any longer.
The players need to have something to play for and punting in that situation was playing scared. You have to go for it. You just missed what would have been a sure TD your players are pumped give them a chance to back it up.
Hows it go
Better to have played to win and lost then not to have played at all.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Sorry, Dj, you're carrying a bone and a grudge over from other threads which doesn't have anything to do with the question of how many wins I think it'd take to save Shurmur's job. This fish ain't bitin' Keep waiting. 
Lol, what "grudge"? the RDE you "owned" me in? ot those crap Gs that kept getting better and are keeping a rook pocket QB clean?
I keep calling you out because you're as committed as the wind....grow a pair and give me names. You obviously have a strong opinion, so where's the backing up when called out?
Still waiting...
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I don't think it matters. I'm basically sure that Shurmur and Heckert are toast and that's even if the win out the season.. at this point, the best we could be is 11-5. That may or may not get us into the playoffs. (probably would) I think that's about the only thing that will save all their jobs..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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At 1-6 the answer to how many wins will it take to save Shurmur's job is 9 straight.
How about just ONE win.
One at a time.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Sorry, Dj, you're carrying a bone and a grudge over from other threads which doesn't have anything to do with the question of how many wins I think it'd take to save Shurmur's job. This fish ain't bitin' Keep waiting.
Lol, what "grudge"? the RDE you "owned" me in? ot those crap Gs that kept getting better and are keeping a rook pocket QB clean?
I keep calling you out because you're as committed as the wind....grow a pair and give me names. You obviously have a strong opinion, so where's the backing up when called out?
Still waiting...
Good luck with that he will twist and wind every which way to keep from being pinned down and actually making a stand or sometimes even stating an opinion.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Skip Bayless does the same thing. No matter what he says, he can never be wrong because he hedges his bets.
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J/C
Well, imo I think one play just sealed Pat's fate. 4th down. Time running down in the 4th. Seemed like the browns had some momentum. The browns were lining up to go for it on 4th down. Then they wasted a time out. And then they came out and punted the ball. The camera then showed Haslam. It was a look of disgust. That one play is not the character of this owner.
Put a fork in 'em. He's done.
That is possibly the most baffling call I have ever seen. I mean with all sincerity he should be fired on the spot. I would say the players should have called time out, circled around him, spit in his face, and run for the first down, but that isnt how the world works. If football had mutinies that is the time for one.
I want a coach to be hired who will explicitly say "Being aggressive in playcalling is important. Going for it on fourth down is important. I will slit throats and score needless points. I seek to score as many points as possible"
Man that call really really annoyed me. He has no business being paid millions of dollars to make calls. Millions of madden playing teenagers could do a better job, and I am seriously not being hyperbolic. That was ridiculous. 
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jc...
Don't know how many caught the Banner/Haslam presser...in it, Haslam says, if this team is not winning in 5 yrs, Haslam will take responsibility.
I would say Banner and Haslam have already decided to tear this franchise apart and start over with their people.
IMO, it comes down to egos...if Haslam and Banner kept the present coaching staff and core group of players, people would give credit to Holmgren and Heckert when the team beginning winning in 2013.
I always believed the team would be competitive, maybe with a .500 record next season and challenging for the playoffs in 2014.
If Banner and Haslam stay the course, the Browns could be challenging for the playoffs in 2 yrs...those are reasonable expectations, if Banner and Haslam continue the rebuilding process started by Holmgren and Heckert in 2010.
If the "egos" can't allow Holmgren and Heckert to get any of the credit for rebuilding this team, they will tear down much of what was established by Holmgren and Heckert and ask the fans for another 5 yrs.
What is ironic, Haslam claims to have learned "the Rooney Way" while minority owner of the Steelers. When the Steelers stopped making changes to their franchise, both on the coaching side and management side and made a commitment to rebuild their roster via the draft, they began winning.
Dan Rooney hired Chuck Noll, his second choice to fill the HC position in 1969 (Joe Paterno turned the job down) and it was Art and Dan Rooney with Chuck Noll, who rebuilt the Steelers roster, via the draft and stopped the changes.
The Steelers actually got worse under Noll, which was hard to do, since the season before Noll took over, the Steelers went 2-11-1. In Noll's first season, the Steelers won 1 game.
Many point to Holmgren's record or 10 wins and 28 losses while he was in charge as a reason for the Browns to once again make drastic changes.
Anyone know what the Steelers 3 yr record was after the 3rd year of their rebuilding plan?...anyone ?
The Rooneys and Noll had a 3 yr record of 12 wins and 30 losses, very near what the Brown record is under Holmgren. Teams that do a complete rebuild of the roster via the draft, do not win in the 3rd year of the rebuild.
But hey, Browns fans can't understand what a 5 year rebuilding plan looks like...but you better learn, because Haslam and Banner are very likely to start another 5 yr plan rather than finish the plan Holmgren and Heckert started.
You see, EGOS must be fed and they are a higher priority for those in charge than producing a winning team for our fans as soon as possible.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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It won't be a complete rebuild. Heckert has done a fairly good job of assembling talent. I think him finding Gordon in the supplemental draft bought him another year. We have a QB, we sure look like we have some receivers, we have a couple of running backs. We're a few bricks shy of a load on defense but you can't build it all at once.
My bet is Heckert stays and Shurmur is unemployed. They'll probably wait until the end of the year to fire Shurmur but, really, who could blame Haslam if he did it this morning? The only thing saving Shurmur's bacon right now is that the new owner probably isn't fool enough to blow up everything so early and send a signal to the fans that the season is officially doomed. The thing about that is we already know it because we've seen it all before.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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My bet is Heckert stays and Shurmur is unemployed. They'll probably wait until the end of the year to fire Shurmur but, really, who could blame Haslam if he did it this morning?
Here is the question right now: do the players care about Shurmur?? You can look at the history of the NFL- there are many coaches that the players fought hard for and somehow dispite all odds managed to save the coaches job with some wins at the end of the season. The thing is, it looked like the defense decided to quit yesterday before the game even started. They were flat and uninspired. This team kind of has its fate in its own hands. IF they continue to play hard for Shurmur, win or lose- as long as they are competitive and in games they might stay the course. BUT the players see these bone head play calls too- it must be deflating to punt from the 40 after calling a time out....
So the next logical question is- do we have a lame duck coach?? IF we do, again- the players are going to quit, and it will get ugly. So these next two games are huge for Pat. San Diego really isn't playing all that well right now. Baltimore is banged up. Maybe the browns steal these two games and go into the bye with a warm, happy fealing. Quit on these two games- Chilli might be in charge against Dallas. (I have had enough of Chilli in vikes land, that doesn't excite me one bit....)
One last thing- When reading the press conference of Haslam\Banner- the things they said about how to build a team is pretty much what Holmgren and Heckert have been doing. Build thru the draft, sign your own guys and use free agency wisely. I really hope that Heckert somehow survives this house cleaning. All things concidered, i think he has done a pretty good job with his drafts. There have been misses, every team will have those. Look at his last draft- very good value so far. Keep Heckert please!!!
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It won't be a complete rebuild. Heckert has done a fairly good job of assembling talent. I think him finding Gordon in the supplemental draft bought him another year. We have a QB, we sure look like we have some receivers, we have a couple of running backs. We're a few bricks shy of a load on defense but you can't build it all at once.
with the way Weeden, Gordon and Schwartz have been playing, Heckert at least has an argument (along with the other young talent he assembled). He is going to have to explain trading up to take an injured RB who has been too injured to provide a real boost.
it'll be an interesting offseason for sure. hopefully, we can have more interest in the play on the field though because we've got half a season before that time starts.
#gmstrong
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You see, EGOS must be fed and they are a higher priority for those in charge than producing a winning team for our fans as soon as possible.
So what you are saying is that the Rooney's and Chuck Noll had big egos so they tore apart whatever they had built and started over?
Under Chuck Noll, they had a miserable first year, which is to be expected.. in year 2 they improved from 1 win to 5.. in year 3 they improved from 5 wins to 6... in year 4 they improved from 6 wins to 13...
So let's compare... In Holmgren/Heckert's first year we stayed the same as the year before at 5 wins (so clearly they started with a lot more talent than the Steelers and Noll did)... in year 2 we regressed to 4 wins... in year 3 we are on pace to regress to 3 wins...
From year 1 on, the Steelers were moving forward, we have been moving backward...... Yea, I see the correlation.
yebat' Putin
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He is going to have to explain trading up to take an injured RB who has been too injured to provide a real boost.
Until the last two weeks when he's shown some spark and he's from Tn, so you can bet Haslam knows Hardesty and is a fan of his.
So basically, I doubt that has any bearing on it at all.
Honestly, I think that heckert and Shurmur and perhaps the entire coaching staff is gone unless they get to the playoffs and even then, I'm not sure if they stay.
banner has the look of a weasel ( not that that should matter) but he kinda sounds like one also, so honestly, I'll give the guy a break, but as of this moment, I'm not in love with him...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I think playoffs is the ONLY way he saves his job.
Ditto
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How many wins till it take to save Shurmur's job?
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?
It doesn't matter, he'll bite himself in the butt long before he gets there.
#GMSTRONG
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I am one of I think 3 Shurmur fans at our last support Pat meetins lol He is toast. I think he is a good coach but he has no balls and Haslam is an aggressive personality. Not going for it on the 4th and 1 sealed his fate. You play to win the game, you dont play not to lose.
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I am one of I think 3 Shurmur fans at our last support Pat meetins lol He is toast. I think he is a good coach but he has no balls and Haslam is an aggressive personality. Not going for it on the 4th and 1 sealed his fate. You play to win the game, you dont play not to lose.
I agree and I have been on Shurmur from last year. I just dont how he manages games. Funny thing is going deep on 2 and 1 is considered a good gamble.
Coach 1 pt
Going for it deep on 3rd and 1 would seem to be agressive playcalling and it almost worked. Again Coach 1 pt
The 4th down part was when he really blew it. If your going to punt you dont call TO you let the clock hit 0 take the 5yd pen and punt.
If you call TO you HAVE To go for it. Players are pumped its game time. Well not for him.
I want Shurmur to do good. I want Shurmur to show improvement as a coach but as all other things Browns, what I want is usually nothing near what actually does happen.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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punting made no sense considering our D had trouble all day. It made less sense considering the down and distance and it was horrible considering where we were on the field. Calling Timeout was a Romeo move. It was not a bad decision. It was a really stupid decision. You can't defend stupid.
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Had we gone for it, I would have understood the timeout... make sure everybody is on the same page with the play call... but to call timeout and then punt showed lack of decision making ability and weakness. He absolutely positively should have known when he called for the deep ball on 3rd down, if this isn't successful we are going to........ That should have been predetermined. This points to one of the biggest problems a lot of people have with Pat, it's like he doesn't think beyond the next play, there is no grand plan that he is trying to achieve... call one play, then figure out what to do next.
yebat' Putin
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While the timeout then punt was unprofessional, if he decided that he shouldn't go for it, then why compound your mistake by going for it just because you called timeout? Whether or not going for it was the right thing to do is one thing, and it made me irritated as heck, too, but if he decided that going for it wasn't the right thing to do, it's better that he punted it away than going for it just to save face.
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How Many Wins Will it Take to Save Shurmur's Job?
Hold on, let me take a timeout to consider this appropriately...
Eleventy.
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but if he decided that going for it wasn't the right thing to do, it's better that he punted it away than going for it just to save face.
It was 3rd and 1 and he decided to take a shot... something I applauded him for at the time.. 1 of 4 things could happen:
1. connect for a big play or a TD, no decision to make
2. get sacked making it 4th and long, no decision to make (punt)
3. connect on something underneath for a first down, no decision to make
4. incomplete in which case you have 4th and 1.
My point is, why wasn't the go/no go decision already made in case the pass was incomplete (which was the most likely scenario of the group)? If he was unsure about whether to go for it or not, then run a play to get the first down... my gripe is not the timeout or even the punt.. it's that we had 2nd and one and needed a touchdown to win... and it seems like our coach couldn't think beyond the next play...
yebat' Putin
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My point is, why wasn't the go/no go decision already made in case the pass was incomplete (which was the most likely scenario of the group)? If he was unsure about whether to go for it or not, then run a play to get the first down... my gripe is not the timeout or even the punt.. it's that we had 2nd and one and needed a touchdown to win... and it seems like our coach couldn't think beyond the next play...
yes, I agree with this.
Plus, the sideline throw to Benjamin again was stupid... seems not only can he not think past the current play, he can't think back to the previous ones, either. (Let's throw it in the flat to the fullback.)
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I agree as well. I liked the call of deep on 3rd that caught Indy totally off guard. But to not have already had a call in place in case it failed was foolish. He should have been telling players that needed to be in be ready and tell so and so to get out.
He seemed more like well darn we should have had that wonder what I should do now. Once he called TO there is no other option but to go for it. He 2nd guessed his own choice and that is not what leaders do.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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You dont go for the bomb on 3rd and 1 if u arent ready to go for it on 4th, just dumb.
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While the timeout then punt was unprofessional, if he decided that he shouldn't go for it, then why compound your mistake by going for it just because you called timeout? Whether or not going for it was the right thing to do is one thing, and it made me irritated as heck, too, but if he decided that going for it wasn't the right thing to do, it's better that he punted it away than going for it just to save face.
If he decided that he shouldn't go for it that's bad; deciding not to go for it after calling a TO/actually having time to think it over is downright awful. People keep talking about momentum, calling a timeout, being 1-5, and a bunch of other things but the most important thing is that it was a horrendously bad decision from a percentage to win standpoint. i.e. probably the worst you will see from any coach in the NFL all year
http://www.advancednflstats.com/2012/10/a-week-of-weak-decisions.html
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There were a plethora of interesting coaching decisions this week, especially in the early games on Sunday. Avid readers cringe at these conservative calls so let's look at a few of them a little closer.
Cleveland Browns: Punted on 4th-and-1 on the Indy 41-yard line down by four with a little over six minutes remaining.
On what was likely the worst decision of the day, the Browns cut their expected win probability almost in half by punting. On 4th-and-1 from the opponent's 41, you should almost always go for it. You are expected to score +1.58 points by going for it (74% league-wide conversion rate) versus -0.04 points by punting.
But, when you're losing in the 4th quarter, that decision becomes even more obvious. A punt means only a 24% chance of winning the game -- only 6% more than a failed conversion. This is because a punt from that spot nets you a maximum of 40 yards and more likely closer to 20. A successful conversion means a 45% chance of winning. The numbers say to go for it unless you think you can convert fewer than one in four.
The Browns would actually get the ball back, as Pat Shurmur had planned, but they would ultimately fall to the Colts. The fact that they got the ball back does not mean it was the correct decision.
As an aside, 74% conversion rate there is a bit optimistic as there is a selection bias involved (teams are more likely to go for it 4th and inches than 4th and 1 and a half), but even with a very, very conservative 50% chance of converting it would still be an awful decision.
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Quote:
Quote:
How Many Wins Will it Take to Save Shurmur's Job?
Hold on, let me take a timeout to consider this appropriately...
Eleventy.
Hahaha! 
I'm thinking, as it sits today, 12.
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You dont go for the bomb on 3rd and 1 if u arent ready to go for it on 4th, just dumb.
Bingo.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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just clickin'...
Fort hangs onto that Vic pass in the endzone at the end of that game, Little catches that pass in the endzone vs Baltimore and Gordon makes that catch in the endzone yesterday and we have none of these conversations.
We are those three plays away from being 4-2 instead of 1-6. That's how close this team is. And in addition, we've had many other opportunities as well. Not just those three plays. It always cooks down to execution. This is a young team. They need to learn to play and grow with each other.
It'll be a shame to see it all torn down and "rebuilt" once again. And just as shameful to lay all the blame on a young head coach who even though he makes his own share of blunders is not nearly as solely responsible as some trumpet on here.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Again, my biggest problem with Shurmur is not pure tactics, or play calling. It is the undisciplined manner in which his teams have played the game.
We have been unable to run the ball with any consistency at all, and this is despite having excellent talent at RB.
Our special teams are horrible, mainly because we make so damn many mistakes on teams.
We are 5th in the NFL for most penalties, with 50. That's over 7 per game. We have lost 462 yards in penalties, which is 4th worst in the NFL. That's 66 yards/game lost ..... mainly on stupid, mental mistakes.
By comparison, in 2010, we had 78 penalties for 675 yards for the entire year. We're on pace for over 1000 yards in penalties this year. We might not even have a 1000 yard rusher .... but we'll try our best to have 1000 yards in penalties. That is horrible. It's also coaching. In 2009 we had 77 penalties for 678 yards. We do have a young team, but the coaching staff needs to make sure that the players understand that stupid mistakes are just that .... stupid.
How many times have we jumped offsides on a 4th and short where it was obvious that the ball was never going to be snapped? It happened yesterday. I think that it's happened 3 or 4 times so far this year. That's horrible. It's coaching.
We make an inordinate number of mistakes. This has to change, and the coaching staff has to change it. This is their biggest weakness.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
Quote:
Fort hangs onto that Vic pass in the endzone at the end of that game, Little catches that pass in the endzone vs Baltimore and Gordon makes that catch in the endzone yesterday and we have none of these conversations.
We are those three plays away from being 4-2 instead of 1-6. That's how close this team is. And in addition, we've had many other opportunities as well. Not just those three plays. It always cooks down to execution. This is a young team. They need to learn to play and grow with each other.
It'll be a shame to see it all torn down and "rebuilt" once again. And just as shameful to lay all the blame on a young head coach who even though he makes his own share of blunders is not nearly as solely responsible as some trumpet on here.
This should be re-posted every time someone starts to moan and groan about this team.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
Quote:
just clickin'...
Fort hangs onto that Vic pass in the endzone at the end of that game, Little catches that pass in the endzone vs Baltimore and Gordon makes that catch in the endzone yesterday and we have none of these conversations.
We are those three plays away from being 4-2 instead of 1-6. That's how close this team is. And in addition, we've had many other opportunities as well. Not just those three plays. It always cooks down to execution. This is a young team. They need to learn to play and grow with each other.
It'll be a shame to see it all torn down and "rebuilt" once again. And just as shameful to lay all the blame on a young head coach who even though he makes his own share of blunders is not nearly as solely responsible as some trumpet on here.
This team isn't that close - it was that close. The only continuity between what you see this season and what you see next season will be names.
Everything being built this season will be laid to waste this off-season. All of the learning the rookies and 2nd year players have done will have to be re-learned in a new system. This season of re-building will be followed by a season re-building.... provided that next season isn't yet another complete tear-down.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
buzz-killer....... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
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well, it still comes down to how the players respond. If they throw in the towel, its going to be a new coach. IF they keep playing hard and can stay in these games and actually pick up some of them along the way- maybe Pat keeps his job.
It is disappointing to hear that Pat would make the same 4th down decision if the same opportunity presented itself.... He's got to own up to mistakes, that is one thing that is going to get himself in trouble. Honestly, his play calling has been more imaginative- which i think is related to having better talent.
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Shurmur's Job?
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