|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
WOW, you guys have got to find a copy of this.. I took the afternoon off and I'm sitting in the living room watching it on Encore. Man o man.. This is really bringing in to perspective what REALLY caused the financial meltdown.. Tell you what, it's a lot different than I thought.. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645089/
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,032
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,032 |
An interesting read that deals with some other countries issues (as well as our own) is Boomerang. It's a pretty entertaining and enlightening read.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
So what are their conclusions and opinions?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
So what are their conclusions and opinions?
the butler did it.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,374
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,374 |
Quote:
Quote:
So what are their conclusions and opinions?
the butler did it.
Just what I thought 
LET'S GO BROWNS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/OldSixty-Two/new0400001.jpg) [b]WOOF WOOF[b]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
So what are their conclusions and opinions?
Oh man Ytown,, it's way to involved to discuss here, I honestly couldn't do it justice. In fact I think I'd butcher it so bad that you guys would burn me at the stake LOL
I'll tell you this, it will make you question everything you thought you know about the downfall of the American Economy and the culprits that made it happen and why.
It's an Eye opener..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458 |
Found it streaming here. The second link is the one I am using to watch free.
Last edited by Tyler_Derden; 11/02/12 08:52 PM.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349 |
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,013
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,013 |
i'll check it out at some point DAMAN...thanks.
i spend a lot of time following macroeconomics these days, and i will take one exception with what you said. you mentioned the downfall of the American economy. the financial crash of 08 was a prelude. we are in for a much larger crash ahead. none of the banking system problems have been fixed. debt is higher. cheap oil is maxing out. central banks are racing to devalue their currencies. it's not clear how it will happen, but we will collapse. it took me a long time to say that aloud, given that it sounds like conspiracy theory. but i've seen and heard enough data and analysis by very smart people with all sorts of perspectives to be convinced of it.
Browns fans are born with it...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
it was the butcher, not the butler? man, this is a good mystery
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,391
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,391 |
Quote:
WOW,
you guys have got to find a copy of this.. I took the afternoon off and I'm sitting in the living room watching it on Encore.
Man o man.. This is really bringing in to perspective what REALLY caused the financial meltdown..
Tell you what, it's a lot different than I thought..
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645089/
Yes, I've watched it a few times. Had to wrap my head around what was going on. Just incredible and infuriating. 
And it's NOT a left/right wing movie. It just goes through the facts. Blame is on countless people.
In fact, this movie makes me want to have more hope for the 43 trillion lawsuit.
------------------------------
*In Baker we trust*
-------------------------------
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458 |
So, I just finished watching this thing and it was pretty interesting, and sickening too.
I just can't really help but think that, these guys, who made huge profits off of basically swindling other people, that they are all really rich, pathetic individuals.
I can't wrap my mind around a six figure "bonus," let alone a seven figure one. Its just absolutely pathetic.
And the cycle, and how it all worked--quite amazing. Amazing that no one in a seat of power or authority, hadn't a single shred of decency to question what they were doing or try to stop it.
A fun movie telling me a fun story about something I already know--there are too many people making way too much money, who, either don't deserve the money b/c they do so little work, or don't deserve the money b/c they do such a poor job.
I feel a lot like I did when I got to thinking about the guys that actually build houses, tradesmen, making maybe 40k a year, and some idiot banker who is selling out the whole freaking country is making 10mil a year for creating a big mess.
This country's priorities are totally backwards. Its all about doing as little work as possible while making the most money. And everything from our culture to our educational system pushes this attitude.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,032
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,032 |
Just watched it myself. A lot of it I had read/seen before. It's all disgusting. Anyone who thinks deregulation of the banks is a good thing is fooling themselves, especially when we bail them out when they make these horrible, intentional "mistakes". No one will learn their lesson. I believe in the worst in people when it comes to anything dealing with money, and things lke this only further prove it.
One thing that it further proves above all us... no matter who's in power, they're controlled by the same people. Everyone's a fool who thinks Romney or Obama could ever change that.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
It's not te bonuses that bother me, or even the amounts. Hey, if a guy earns it in an honest fashion I applaud him.
But these guys killed companies, their employees, their customers and countless folks that had almost no idea what was happening and if they did suspect, couldn't have stopped it.
Essentially they killed America and got rich in the process.
Osama Bin Laden killed 4000 americans on 9/11.. These guys, and I'm going to get beat on for saying this, actually did worse long term damage to America then Bin Laden and frankly, I think should be in jail, not living in the lap of luxury on some island.
Ytown, I wanted to tell you what I thought when you asked, but honestly, had I said what I just said without a few of you guys seeing and feeling what I felt, I figured it would only start a Deadbate.
Seriously, I can't stress this enough, take the time to watch this.
What you will find is that it's not a blue problem or a red problem, it's a greed problem.
DNA: I hope to hell you are wrong about the crash that's coming, but after watching this, I'll tell you, I wouldn't put it past some of these guys both here and in Europe driving this car right into the ditch.
All for the almighty buck.
Please watch this. I don't beg often,In fact I don't remember ever begging, but I am at this moment, I beg you, watch this. Come to your own conclusion.
The most important thing I saw in this is that it wasn't politics (although they are there and their presence is felt) it's not about Romney or Obama, it's not about Republicans or Democrats.
it's about what happened. It does indeed point some fingers but oddly enough, they are pointed at people that, well, frankly none of us really knew the names of. At least they weren't household names. (my guess is some of you knew them, but again, not household names and certainly not the ones the fingers are pointed at in this election season, well, not all of them)
What angers me is knowing that my fellow Americans were killing their fellow Americans and America
And for what.. a Buck.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,448
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,448 |
Have shared the same feelings for some time now , Very concerned !
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
Just watched it myself. A lot of it I had read/seen before. It's all disgusting. Anyone who thinks deregulation of the banks is a good thing is fooling themselves, especially when we bail them out when they make these horrible, intentional "mistakes". No one will learn their lesson. I believe in the worst in people when it comes to anything dealing with money, and things lke this only further prove it.
One thing that it further proves above all us... no matter who's in power, they're controlled by the same people. Everyone's a fool who thinks Romney or Obama could ever change that.
Re read that last comment about 100 times,, it's 100% accurate.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,013
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,013 |
WATER... you know, i first saw that Doomsday Prepper show on National Geographic, and was like "look at these crazies." i still think a good number of them are, but i have come to the realization that disruptions in the supply chain for basic necessities are likely in an economic collapse. we've been mocking the Soviet Union breadlines for decades in the name of capitalism over communism. how sick is it that corruption of our own system may very well repeat that very same level of desperation? DAMAN... yes, Red v Blue is a false choice. i'm still trying to decide between Stein and Johnson (like it matters  ). yes, they're very different in a lot of ways. but they both have some good ideas, and aren't beholden to corporate interests.
Browns fans are born with it...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
I have said all along that 2 of the biggest causes of the fiscal problems we went through recently were Congress doing everything it could to try to get people into houses of their own, even if they could not afford it ....... and the Fed manipulating currency and interest rates.I have also said that this is a 2 party problem.
I have not watched the video, but I wonder if these are touched upon in it?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,032
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,032 |
It's more about the deregulation of the banks, and the safety net system that was allowed to be created in order to allow them to make subprime loans with little risk, at least until the point that even the safety nets were no longer a bargain. Watch it...
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
That's kind of along the lines of what I have said.
Many loans were made to people who had no business getting loans, and this was pushed by both parties.
I'll try to watch it when I get some time to do so, and I can concentrate.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,032
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,032 |
Yep. That's why I said to watch it... They point the finger as starting with Reagan and his deregulation. They then show Clinton and W's stuff (interestingly enough I don't remember anything from HW being on there). Then it finishes up showing how O has basically hired all the people that were a big part of the mess as his economic team despite campaigning that he would fix the regulation stuff...
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,391
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,391 |
Quote:
Yep. That's why I said to watch it... They point the finger as starting with Reagan and his deregulation. They then show Clinton and W's stuff (interestingly enough I don't remember anything from HW being on there). Then it finishes up showing how O has basically hired all the people that were a big part of the mess as his economic team despite campaigning that he would fix the regulation stuff...
The only mention of HW Bush was the act he passed that allowed someone to come work for the Gov't without having to pay any taxes on the sale of their company stock. CEO Henry Paulson (sp?) sold his $450 million of Lehman Bros stock without having to pay a dime in taxes to come work for the Fed.
------------------------------
*In Baker we trust*
-------------------------------
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
I have said all along that 2 of the biggest causes of the fiscal problems we went through recently were Congress doing everything it could to try to get people into houses of their own, even if they could not afford it ....... and the Fed manipulating currency and interest rates.I have also said that this is a 2 party problem.
I have not watched the video, but I wonder if these are touched upon in it?
Take the time, watch the video, I promise you, they did indeed touch on it, but it's not even remotely close to as simple as you make it sound.
It's the story of GREED.. Watch, Listen and learn how wrong so many of us have been, Me included.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
Quote:
Many loans were made to people who had no business getting loans, and this was pushed by both parties.
Not only were they selling sub prime loans but those loans were then sold to investors with AIG giving them AAA ratings making them look like good investments. But even beyond that, the banks of origin were then buying insurance on them betting that they would fail.
So the banks made money on the loan, made money on the sale of said "AAA" rated sales to investors and then made money when it all went bad because they bet against themselves.
It all crashed in '08, the same year Obama took over. You'd have thunk he'd have been angry over that seeing the way it was done and all the masterminds who were behind it. But then he appoints said masterminds to high-ranking government financial jobs giving them responsibilities they've proven they cannot be trusted with. In other words, many of them got major promotions to the level of shaping our system. And they still fight against regulation even though it was the deregulation that enabled them to screw everything up due to greed and a lack of concern for the ramifications on society.
The masterminds all kept all the money they made, got no punishment at all, and then got promoted to high-level positions right in front of our faces and there has been not a damn thing we could or can do about it. They are still in charge. Only instead of doing it as top level executives in large corporations they are doing it as top level executives in our country's government. Now they have an authority they never had.
Their crime against society, globally in fact, is far worse even than the vulgar amount of money they made even though most of it was made through deceit and much of the rest was made illegally. They created the entire economic mess we're in right now. Not Regan or Clinton or Bush or Obama. Sure, all those presidents had an opportunity to see through it and put an early stop to it. But all those presidents were fooled by financial masterminds who manipulate math, and thereby politicians in a way that no one with any less understanding of that creative math could have seen the drastic result.
Hell, the one dude, who formally was the CEO of the biggest bank, and biggest offender, who was appointed the highest ranking financial position in the government was telling everyone that everything was fine, there's no problems and the idea that problems were on the horizon was preposterous, just one month before it all fell apart.
He then was one of the two who masterminded the whole bail-out scheme in an effort to stem any further decline. And we all know they took that bailout money and gave bonuses to the very executives who failed by creating the whole collapse. They were rewarded for pioneering the bail-out not punished for creating the need for it!
Their crime ruined the lives of countless millions of workers, families and small business the world over as well as wrecking the economies of countries the world over and they walk away with millions of deceitfully earned money, a pat on the back and a high paying job with major responsibilities to continue to shape our economic system.
None of them should have been permitted to keep their illicit earnings. None of them should have been promoted to positions of authority. All of them should have been arrested, (no one was arrested for this let alone prosecuted), prosecuted, sent to jail in solitary with just enough human contact to keep them from going mad and fed bread and water, with added vitamins, so they could experience what their lack of concern for society/mankind caused. This should have resulted in the only regulations necessary to keep the next greedy bastages from concocting another scheme to gain riches at the expense of an unsuspecting/trusting society.
I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer and you'd want to double-check my summery to be certain that what I laid out is the factual manner in which it occured, but it's the best summary I can come up with after watching such a complicated financial explanation.
I'm 60 years old now. I've lost a lot of that youthful vigor and passion over social injustice that I had as a teen and a young man. In fact I never post in any of these type of threads, political or otherwise. But this, when I consider the resulting implications and the sheer global number of individuals and families that were left devastated, homeless, jobless and hopeless just so that a few individuals could create vulgar riches for themselves I seethe with an intense anger.
We bitch about gas prices, blame Obama for the jobless rate, complain over our country's huge deficit and his broken promises. But it was these financial "geniuses" who brought the country to it's knees and the problems it created are impossible to fix in a decade. And to add insult to injury Obama has now put them in charge of managing the system from an actual position of authority.
WTF?!
Below is a link to watch a 4-hour documentary that I watched earlier this spring which tells the inside story of the global financial crisis much in the same way this movie does. It was done by FRONTLINE and aired on PBS. It tells the same story. Watching the movie Damanshot posted along with this documentary, (a double-dose of the same information presented a little differently and perhaps more in depth), makes the whole thing even more clear and even more disgusting.
PBS 4-Part Documentary
Episode One_Time - 59:10_ Inside the epic rise of a new financial order -- and the trouble that followed.
Episode Two_Time - 54.:30_ How U.S. leaders struggled to respond to a financial crisis that caught them by surprise.
Episode Three_Time - 57:25_ How Obama inherited a financial crisis that would define his first term.
Episode Four_Time - 56:20_ FRONTLINE probes a Wall Street culture that remains focused on risky trades.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Let's not forget the rating agencies that rated these financial instruments as AAA or 2A when in fact they were totally based on NOTHING. They actually showed where Moodys took money to rate this stuff high.
And yeah, Obama has indeed put those guys in charge,, so did Bush and my guess is, so will Romney.
It's a game, we are the pawns.. I don't understand why these guys are walking around free.
These guys make Bernie Madoff look like a piker. he's basically not even in their class... he's small potatos. So were the guys that owned Adelphia Cable... Pikers compared to these guys..
There is absolutely no way they should be free.
DDub,, I think you were referring to Paulson when you mentioned he was required to sell his stake in layman bros.. 450 million and not a cent of taxes paid.. anyone wanna try and defend that?
What's sickening to me is that that rule was put in place by George HW Bush, A man I trusted and voted for. Clinton could have fixed it, W could have fixed it, Obama probably couldn't have fixed it because by the time he got in office, the house of cards was collapsing already, but he didn't have to put those that were involved in this mess in charge of the economy.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
OK, I am watching this video, and so far one thing really, really sticks out at me.
They have Barnie Frank on here talking about how bad derivatives and such were .... and how dangerous they were ..... but many of the "everyone gets a home at any cost, whether they have the credit and/or income to support a home" policies he supported led to these funds.
These loans are high risk loans. They created high risk funds. They also artificially inflated home values across the board. Fund owners liked them, because as long as they kept sticking people into every inflating homes, they were good. If the loan went belly up, they could foreclose and get paid from the insurance, and they were able to get an inflated monthly payment for as long as people paid as well. It was a win-win for them. Further, even if a home went to foreclosure, with housing on a constant positive track, they "couldn't lose".
Barney Frank pushed hard against regulation of entities like Freddie and Fannie, because he wanted "equality" in helping minorities and poor people get into homes. These products eliminated the risk for the lenders, and even made foreclosures profitable.
He can complain all he wants, but as I have said all along, he, along with people in both parties, went along for the ride.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,032
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,032 |
Very few spoke out against it. You're right though, everyone was along for the ride.....
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
OK, here are my impressions: (or a small novel)
They brought up the rule allowing a nominee to a cabinet position to sell off stocks tax free. I can see both sides of this one. Obviously, it looks bad on the surface, but why would anyone holding a lot of stocks ever accept a position, at a lower rate of pay than whet they had been making, if you also have to divest yourself of all of your stocks, and take a huge tax hit all in one year?
Maybe allowing the capital gains to be distributed over a 4 or 8 year period might be a better solution. I don't know. However, if a superbly qualified candidate has a lot of stocks, I don't want to lose that candidate because him taking the job would destroy him financially. (relatively speaking, of course)
The credit rating agencies are a mess. I don't know how they make their money, but evidently they received payments to write rating opinions for a variety of companies they rate for stability. That seems like a massive conflict of interest to me, but I don't know what the solution is. Obviously, if they rate certain companies in a positive light, and they go belly up, they will not be seen as a reliable evaluator by those who invest their money ...... but I think that there has to be a better solution to this part of the picture.
I have said all along that the housing bubble caused the recession more than any fiscal policy did. This documentary seems to agree with that viewpoint. Once the housing market collapsed, it took down financial institutions, the markets, and the economy. Yet today we have even bigger "too big to fail" institutions. This concerns me a great deal, but again, I don't know what the answer is.
This documentary brought up executive pay a few times. I am of the opinion that pa is what the market bears. If fast food restaurants wanted to hire degreed individuals to work their counters, they would have to pay to attract them. Is it legal for the Congress to write a law that says that executive pay can only be "X", or "X% of a company's income"? Again, I don't know the answer. This would be an even bigger problem if there was more competition, because bringing in someone to turn a company around, where profits might be lower in the first few years, would be almost impossible if pay was scaled to profits or income. Again, I don't have a great answer here.
Lobbying checks being passed out on the floor of the Congress is an image I have burned into my brain from the tobacco industry coverage. I feel that there is no good reason for such activity to take place in the halls of Congress. I think that we should have absolutely clear disclosure of all lobbying contributions, that are easy to find. Each member of Congress should have to disclose, on their Congress web page, each and every lobbying contribution, the amount, who gave the money, and on whose behalf they made the contribution. More light shined on this would probably be the best disinfectant.
The movie brought up the net worth of certain people. So what? I don't care what peoples' net worths are, and don't believe that it necessarily says anything good or bad about a person.
Academia who are paid for reports and papers should have to disclose what they were paid for preparing the report right on the 1st page. Again, sunlivght is a great disinfectant.
The movie said that college is increasingly out of reach for most people? This is flat out wrong. Almost anyone who wants to go to college can do so, even if they are a lousy credit risk. In fact, I think this is why college has become more and more expensive as time goes by. No one has to write a check. They sign papers, and don't suffer the pain of the expense until years and years later. College would be much cheaper if there was no student loan program, because schools would have to adjust their expenses to what people can afford to pay out of pocket. I truly believe that this is the main driver behind ever increasing tuition costs.
Further, credit causes prices to rise in and of itself. If there is no credit, and a company making something, then they need to price it so that enough people can afford to buy it from savings. With credit, prices can increase, because the pain of increased prices can be spread out over an extended period of time. Businesses will push prices to the maximum the market will bear, and credit extends those limits greatly.
How many cars would GM sell if there was no credit? How many people can afford to write a $20,000 - $50,000 check for a car? I would guess that it wouldn;t be too many.
The documentary also made a case that somehow Bush's tax policy favored the rich. However, it shifted the tax burden greatly to the upper income levels, and removed people entirely from the federal income tax rolls. The EITC an expanded child tax credits, combined with lower rates for all brackets, gave us the oh so famous 47% who pay nothing in federal income tax. This is my major point of disagreement with the video. I feel that capital gains should be taxed at a slightly lower rate, because there is risk involved, and if we want capital in the system, taking calculated chances, then we can't punish success to a degree that makes risk unacceptable. I also loathe and detest the inheritance tax, as I feel that this is nothing more than a money grab by the federal government. People who worked hard should be able to pass on the fruit of their labor without the government sticking their hand into coffins.
The movie also showed money going to the top. This is to be expected when there was a credit crisis, lowered household income, massive unemployment, lowered interest rates, and so on that primarily affect middle income people. The credit crisis has many people cutting back so they can pay off debt. Obviously when household incomes drop, that will hurt middle class people more. Many middle class people tend to become more careful in times like this as far as investing money. Take the stock market, for example. When the market tanked, who got out, and who stayed in to ride the wave back up? Those without a great deal of money became extremely careful, and put their money into savings that favored stability and safety over gain. Those with money put their money into stocks and other such vehicles, that favored gain over safety and stability. When the market went up like it did, those in made incredible gains.
Further, when interest rates were cut, and cut, and cut, and cut to try and control inflation, it eliminated an avenue many people used in the past to build wealth. I remember when I was just out of high school and I put money in a certificate of deposit. IIRC, I made 7% or 8% APR. Today that might be 1%, if you're lucky. For each year, the interest on that investment went from $70-$80 per year ..... to $10. Over 5 years, that's a huge difference. I seem to recall long term CDs paying more than that back around that time.
Again, the movie brought up :too big to fail", and I agree that this is a problem. However, over the past 4 years banks have consolidated, and too big to fail has become bigger and bigger. I don't knwo what the solution is.
At the end, they brought up prosecuting executives for pay "abuse". Even the guy who proposed this idea said that it would be really hard to win such cases, I'm not sure what laws could be used to justify such criminal prosecutions. I mean, even single person small businesses that are failing pay the "chief executive" as much as they can .... even if it means that vendors or creditors go unpaid. This is "just" on a different scale. I don't like the government thinking that they can set pay limits on anyone or any company/industry. Corporations of all kinds have highly paid CEO and board members. Poor performing companies may pay more for premium management talent to try and turn things around. I don't have a good answer for this .... but I think that limiting executive pay would put poor performing companies, that need exceptional leadership and executive talent, out of business.
Those are some of the things I took from this. There were many things that I agree with, but these are some that I had concerns with.
I worry about over-regulating companies and industry, but this looks like a case where an industry was poorly regulated, or not regulated at all. There has to be a balance, but I'm not sure exactly where that balance lies. Obviously it's not a D or R issue exclusively. (which was a point I have made all along)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 798
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 798 |
Quote:
The credit rating agencies are a mess. I don't know how they make their money, but evidently they received payments to write rating opinions for a variety of companies they rate for stability. That seems like a massive conflict of interest to me, but I don't know what the solution is. Obviously, if they rate certain companies in a positive light, and they go belly up, they will not be seen as a reliable evaluator by those who invest their money ...... but I think that there has to be a better solution to this part of the picture.
Agree 100%. Even worse than being paid by the people they rate, the ratings agencies used the models the big banks gave them to analyze the safety of these derivatives ("The Big Short," Michael Lewis). So basically, the banks were saying here is the money to rate them, and here is how we think they should be rated. No one likes to hear it, but there needs to be true third party oversight, and the federal government is the only organization with enough power to do this effectively.
Quote:
I have said all along that the housing bubble caused the recession more than any fiscal policy did. This documentary seems to agree with that viewpoint. Once the housing market collapsed, it took down financial institutions, the markets, and the economy. Yet today we have even bigger "too big to fail" institutions. This concerns me a great deal, but again, I don't know what the answer is.
On paper, I think the solution is simple. Break up the banks and regulate derivatives. We used to separate risky trading from more standard banking with great success. Now, we have superbanks like Citi that do it all (essentially risking FDIC-backed deposits in very risky very non-transparent proprietary trading) and non-transparent derivatives that connect everything in ways we don't know about until everything fails (no-one could have predicted that AIG would go under b/c their derivative positions were unknown to everyone except to AIG and the banks). I'm not optimistic though, b/c "too big to fail" can also be known as "too politically powerful to regulate."
Quote:
This documentary brought up executive pay a few times. I am of the opinion that pa is what the market bears. If fast food restaurants wanted to hire degreed individuals to work their counters, they would have to pay to attract them. Is it legal for the Congress to write a law that says that executive pay can only be "X", or "X% of a company's income"? Again, I don't know the answer. This would be an even bigger problem if there was more competition, because bringing in someone to turn a company around, where profits might be lower in the first few years, would be almost impossible if pay was scaled to profits or income. Again, I don't have a great answer here.
But this is a very, very key part of all this. There are two parts to this that show compensation wasn't being determined by the market. First, in many of these companies, corporate culture has degenerated to the point where CEOs served as chairs of their board as well. This would be like if the President were also Speaker of the House, Majority Leader of the Senate and Chief Justice. There is no check or balance of power. CEO's and other high level executives then wrote their own compensation packages. Second, those compensation packages were almost universally geared towards short term performance (stock price over a quarter) and thus short term compensation. Is it any surprise then that banks did things that were extremely profitable over the short term but extremely devastating over the long term?
I think the answer lies in making compensation more tied to long term performance (you don't have to set a certain number or percentage, just take the short term out of it) and also re instituting some of the corporate governance principles that used to be in effect before the de-regulatory wave of the 90's. In particular, big banks used to have a "fiduciary responsibility" in their charters to protect the money of the American people that has disappeared. Neither of these things are "overregulation" IMO. You can still attract very good talent without setting up compensation structures that essentially favor profit by fraud.
Quote:
The movie brought up the net worth of certain people. So what? I don't care what peoples' net worths are, and don't believe that it necessarily says anything good or bad about a person.
This is all part of compensation. I don't care what their net worth is if they worked hard and earned it. I do care if they obtained that wealth by defrauding the American public and shareholders, and then getting us as taxpayers to socialize their losses. Its pretty clear now that a lot of the fortunes created on Wall St. the last few decades have been at our expense. These are not people that came up with a better mousetrap; their "invention" is that they recognized that they can make short term, risky moves to enrich themselves, knowing full well that there will be no consequences even if the whole thing crashes down. Then, the American taxpayers will have to pick up the mess.
Quote:
The documentary also made a case that somehow Bush's tax policy favored the rich. However, it shifted the tax burden greatly to the upper income levels, and removed people entirely from the federal income tax rolls. The EITC an expanded child tax credits, combined with lower rates for all brackets, gave us the oh so famous 47% who pay nothing in federal income tax. This is my major point of disagreement with the video. I feel that capital gains should be taxed at a slightly lower rate, because there is risk involved, and if we want capital in the system, taking calculated chances, then we can't punish success to a degree that makes risk unacceptable. I also loathe and detest the inheritance tax, as I feel that this is nothing more than a money grab by the federal government. People who worked hard should be able to pass on the fruit of their labor without the government sticking their hand into coffins.
On this we disagree. When grossly different rates are present, taxes are incentives. If you tax capital gains at half the rate of other income like wages, you drive people to put more and more money into investment vehicles. And contrary to popular belief, more and more investment isn't necessarily a good thing. For example, "The Giant Pool of Money" documentary asserts that global savings went from $36 trillion in 2000 to $72 trillion in 2006 (!). There was twice as much money being invested over 6 years, but clearly not twice as many good investments. The bulk of that money was totally wasted by inflating a housing bubble. If Wall St. were such a great capital allocation system, we should have had a much stronger worldwide economy from such huge amounts of investment.
This also highlights why favoring investment without proper controls in our capital allocation system or without demand to justify the investments simply won't work. "Trickle down" has worked to various degrees in the past when there are proper controls and unmet demand. Neither of those situations exist right now, so favoring investment now would only fuel another speculative bubble.
Quote:
At the end, they brought up prosecuting executives for pay "abuse". Even the guy who proposed this idea said that it would be really hard to win such cases, I'm not sure what laws could be used to justify such criminal prosecutions. I mean, even single person small businesses that are failing pay the "chief executive" as much as they can .... even if it means that vendors or creditors go unpaid. This is "just" on a different scale. I don't like the government thinking that they can set pay limits on anyone or any company/industry. Corporations of all kinds have highly paid CEO and board members. Poor performing companies may pay more for premium management talent to try and turn things around. I don't have a good answer for this .... but I think that limiting executive pay would put poor performing companies, that need exceptional leadership and executive talent, out of business.
Its not about the actual pay numbers; its about how they got there. Mortgage fraud, accounting fraud, and complete breakdowns in corporate governance are things that must be punished, or at least the rules need to be fixed. For example, Lehman was using a trick whereby at the time they needed to put out their quarterly report, they would sell a bunch of big assets to big corporations, use the money to make their balance sheet look good, then buy back the assets just after the report was out ("Repo 105"). That may not be technically illegal, but anyone with half a brain can see that inflated their stock price above what it should have been, thus showering executives with bonuses they didn't deserve. At any given moment, trillions are moving through that repo market, so I can guarantee Lehman wasn't the only one doing this.
Your analogy with a small business is a false equivalency (and for that matter, even other big corporations). These banks underpin the entire worldwide financial system. Even if GE failed, it would not bring down the worldwide economy. These banks could. If you don't think that's true, look up some news articles from the time that Lehman failed (or for that matter, when Long Term Capital Management failed in the 90's). There was total panic and chaos.
If the local carpet cleaning business goes belly up b/c of abuses, who suffers? The carpet cleaning business. Who suffers if the capital allocation system of the entire world goes belly up? And who cleans up the mess? The answer is everyone else besides the executives who already made their short term bonuses, and the clean up crew is and always has been American (and European, and Chinese, etc.) taxpayers.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
OK, I am watching this video, and so far one thing really, really sticks out at me.
They have Barnie Frank on here talking about how bad derivatives and such were .... and how dangerous they were ..... but many of the "everyone gets a home at any cost, whether they have the credit and/or income to support a home" policies he supported led to these funds.
These loans are high risk loans. They created high risk funds. They also artificially inflated home values across the board. Fund owners liked them, because as long as they kept sticking people into every inflating homes, they were good. If the loan went belly up, they could foreclose and get paid from the insurance, and they were able to get an inflated monthly payment for as long as people paid as well. It was a win-win for them. Further, even if a home went to foreclosure, with housing on a constant positive track, they "couldn't lose".
Barney Frank pushed hard against regulation of entities like Freddie and Fannie, because he wanted "equality" in helping minorities and poor people get into homes. These products eliminated the risk for the lenders, and even made foreclosures profitable.
He can complain all he wants, but as I have said all along, he, along with people in both parties, went along for the ride.
Barnie Frank? Is that all you got out of it? Sorry,, puter froze and I needed to save this and move to a different one. Gotta get that laptop fixed.,. freezing too much.
Anyway,, Barnie Frank is a flake.. But that's not what I was talking about., he's a nobody in this mess.
Someone says,, hey, loosen up restrictions on loans and the banking industry takes that as a no holds barred free for all..
Politicans let it happen, Presidents let it happen.. the entire system is corrupt.
Last edited by Damanshot; 11/04/12 10:31 AM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Obviously you replied before you read my novel on this. I do think that Barney Frank, who played a huge part in pushing "mortgages for all", plays a large part in this, and for him to play innocent is ridiculous.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,391
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,391 |
j/c
The investors who knowingly sold bad investment packages and then took insurance out against those packages (hoping they would fail) should be brought to justice. Or shot.
They sold these investment packages to retirees and other fund managers under the false pretense that they had good ratings knowing damn well they were junk. They laughed all the way to the bank when they failed and got paid by AIG insurance. AIG goes belly up. We all get stuck with the bill.
Last edited by Referee2; 11/05/12 06:51 AM.
------------------------------
*In Baker we trust*
-------------------------------
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Your last line is the biggest part of the problem.
If the Browns go out and hire a Mike Holmgren at $5 million/year, and he doesn't do what he was hired to do, then the Browns and their fans suffer, but there probably aren't a lot of negative coattails.
I understand your point about banks having an impact on everyone else, but that's actually the point. There has to be a dividing line between allowing businesses and industries to do what is best for them, and not allowing these "too big to fail, and too big to be regulated" businesses and industries to do whatever they want, the consequences on others be damned.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
Your last line is the biggest part of the problem.
If the Browns go out and hire a Mike Holmgren at $5 million/year, and he doesn't do what he was hired to do, then the Browns and their fans suffer, but there probably aren't a lot of negative coattails.
I understand your point about banks having an impact on everyone else, but that's actually the point. There has to be a dividing line between allowing businesses and industries to do what is best for them, and not allowing these "too big to fail, and too big to be regulated" businesses and industries to do whatever they want, the consequences on others be damned.
I"m going to simplfy this as best I can,.
Deregulation took place. Banks took advantage, politicians knew about it and let them get away with it, in fact, I think many of the profited by it.
I say, throw the bums out of office that sat back and did nothing, then find the banks and investment firms that profited and put the leaders of those firms in prison.
They are every bit as menacing to America as Osama Bin Laden was. And their fate shouldn't be any less horrific.
Bin Ladan killed 4000 or so Americans on 9/11, the rest of those lives we lost in the last 10 years were in an effort to bring him down.
But Wall Street killed the hopes and dreams of a nation and in that, they effected millions of people.
I have no problem lining them up against the wall and filling them with lead.
(not a gun guy, do they still use lead?) Anyway, you get my drift.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
then find the banks and investment firms that profited and put the leaders of those firms in prison.
For what?
If you could put people in jail for profiting off of poorly conceived federal legislation, the leaders of most companies would need to be put in jail.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
Many loans were made to people who had no business getting loans, and this was pushed by both parties.
Not only were they selling sub prime loans but those loans were then sold to investors with AIG giving them AAA ratings making them look like good investments. But even beyond that, the banks of origin were then buying insurance on them betting that they would fail.
So the banks made money on the loan, made money on the sale of said "AAA" rated sales to investors and then made money when it all went bad because they bet against themselves.
I saw it about a year ago, and that just floored me, that this was allowed to go on, and no safeguarfds against this possibility existed. Was just amazing.
Basically this makes Bernie Madoff's schemes seem minor because at least he was at risk of getting caught, these banks did this all "legally", unethically, but legally..
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Quote:
Quote:
then find the banks and investment firms that profited and put the leaders of those firms in prison.
For what?
If you could put people in jail for profiting off of poorly conceived federal legislation, the leaders of most companies would need to be put in jail.
Exactly.
You can only "throw people in prison" if they break a law, or laws. If someone does something that is perhaps unethical, but legal according to the laws on the books, then they can be called on the carpet ..... they can face interrogation by Congress, they can be neaten down in the press ..... but no one is going to prison ,,,,, or even on trial ..... if no laws were broken.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
Quote:
then find the banks and investment firms that profited and put the leaders of those firms in prison.
For what?
If you could put people in jail for profiting off of poorly conceived federal legislation, the leaders of most companies would need to be put in jail.
WOOO there big fella,, Deregulation was never meant to cause what it caused. There was plenty of time to solve it, but no politician did a damn thing.. wanna know why, simple, Congress and the President don't work for us, they work for Wall Street.. Follow the money.
Now, here's the other thing, why do you suppose that deregulation even took place? Because someone paid some legisators to propose then approve it. And that goes all the way to the top.
So when you bribe someone to change the laws so you can take advantage of it, then you are just a guilty as anyone else.
Their actions and the actions of Congress are, at least to me, every bit as much terrorism as what Bin Laden did. It was just presented as commerce.
Did you watch the Documentary?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Did you watch the Documentary?
Nope, that's why I'm asking questions. I'm curious what crimes people committed to warrant being locked up.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... The Documentary "inside job"
|
|
