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Now people can choose to say that it was Frye's first two years in the league against a guy who's got 5 under his belt. It's not a fair comparison. True, but that isn't the question.
I'm not sure it isn't the question. If you do compare their first two years, Frye did better under similar circumstances to Carr, (though Carr was only sacked 15 times his second year.) The FO didn't expect Charlie to develop into a full fledge veteran in a season and a quarter behind a bad line. (Maybe certains fans did, but that's a different story). The question is, IMO, will the team do better over the next five years with a new QB instead of continuing to develop a guy with the skill set Charlie has shown so far. If the answer is yes, then they go for Russell or Quinn not Carr, who's had five years to solidify his bad habits while taking a beating to his body. JMHO
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Can you compare that apple with that egg for me again Toad 
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It's the same beef they have with EVERY QB they see that doesn't have an OL.
They blame the QB for it. Nothing new.
Only the names change,,, but the problem is the same,,,
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You can't compare Frye's first two seasons to Carr's.... not when Carr was on a expansion team..... JMHO
<><
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You can't compare Frye's first two seasons to Carr's.... not when Carr was on a expansion team..... JMHO
so what about Carr and Couch? lol...
seems to me you shouldn't draft a QB high if your an expansion team..
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I think that card is maybe played too often. I said this a while ago about Frye- the only fair and true way to evaluate his performance is to break down the film. 99% of us don't have that ability. Whether it be not having the game film (not what you see on TV because you don't see the entire field and what other players are doing that may or may not contribute to the play), the knowldge to actually understand what each player is supposed to be doing, the actual knowledge of the way a prototypical quarterback is supposed to do (the drops, reading the defense, progression reads, when to step up in the pocket, when to bail, when to throw it away, etc........). Granted the line is and has been an issue. So you rip the film apart and just focus on the plays when the line wasn't the obviously reason for the play failing (defender blew up the play before Frye could even set his feet). Now you can evaluate him. I don't possess all of the forementioned abilities that it takes to truly evaluate a quarterback, but I do see alot of times that Frye has the time that he needs and doesn't perform. Every game you will see examples of this. Not hitting the receiver in stride, throwing behind them and allowing the beaten DB to get back in the play, throwing ducks, not seeing the wide open man, locking on to a receiver, taking a sack because he held on to the ball too long, etc... Some of these are coachable and some are not. In the NFL they break down film to the enth degree. They have a truer (is that a word) of a players abilities and what may have factored into perceived poor performance. (You can probably add Schaffer into this catagory. Playing with a hurt knee that the public didn't know about, playing technically out of position, and playing next to a below ave. guard and trying to cover for him while taking care of his own responsibilities) The staff sees the players in meetings, workouts, and practices. They have a better feel for a players abilities than we do. In the end I guess I'm trying to say that although the line is a problem it is not the only problem with regaurds to Fryes performance. I love his dedication and guts, but he may be out of his league in the NFL. His skill set isn't what it needs to be and improving the line won't improve that. 
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just clicking,
.
It amazes me that there's any real debate here. Two years ago Phil came in and shoved Garcia out the door. From that moment on we haven't had a legit starting QB. He didn't want to sign a big name for big bucks -and I'm fine with that. He didn't want to waste a 1st day pick on a QB - and I applaude him for that. So he took a flyer on Hometown Frye with an order of Upside.
I think he got 3rd round value of of him - fine. But now maybe we have a team worthy of a better QB, and definitely worthy of a better QB competition. Let's grade out Frye & Carr on a scale of 1-10 in a few key categories:
Experience.....F=4 C=8
Mobility..........F=7 C=6.5
Toughness......F=8 C=8
Arm................F=4 C=9
Accuracy........F=6 C=7
Read-a-D.........F=3 C=6.5
Longball...........F=1 C=8
________________________
Net..................F=33 C=53
That's a pretty significant advantage for Carr and the entire offense. Why wouldn't we want that?
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Net..................F=33 C=53
That's a pretty significant advantage for Carr and the entire offense. Why wouldn't we want that?
It all comes back to one's opinion of Frye and Carr.
I think someone who agreed with your ratings would likely share your view in general.
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I think that card is maybe played too often.
I said this a while ago about Frye- the only fair and true way to evaluate his performance is to break down the film. 99% of us don't have that ability.
See Road, I disagree, I don't look at it as a "card" I look at it more as a fact..
But you are right about the other comment.. The only true way to evaluate his performance is to breakdown game films,, and you are also right that we as fans don't have access to that film
So having said that, how in the hell do all these so called experts on here decide if Frye has it or not,,,
One other point about game films,,, the average fan (I fall into that catagory) wouldn't even have an idea what the heck he's looking at,, he'd never figure out what a Pro Evaluator looks for and what he sees..
So once again, how do the so called "experts" on this board know diddly "FOR SURE" about Frye?
Of course, here is what we are going to hear next,,
"we don't need to see game films to tell the guy doesn't have it" 
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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I don't know why, but I watched the Texans-Browns game last night.
Frankly Frye looked a lot better than Carr. This was the last game of the year. Both teams have horrible OL's but Frye made more out of the situation than Carr. This was the bad wrist game. For all the Frye naysayers, he did not play that bad given the circumstance.
I know why we signed Antwan Peek. He had a good game.
I know why we traded Reuben. Fumble...
I know why we signed Eric Steinbach.
I know why we hired Chud.. the offense was about as creative as oatmeal.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Frankly Frye looked a lot better than Carr. This was the last game of the year. Both teams have horrible OL's but Frye made more out of the situation than Carr. This was the bad wrist game. For all the Frye naysayers, he did not play that bad given the circumstance.
They both stunk, Frye threw an interception in the end zone and had a fumble that was returned for a touchdown. (big surprise).
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Even though Carr is now a FA he ain't exactly in the catbird seat on demanding a starting QB position - he was just released. As in us releasing Couch - he could demand a starting job all he wanted - did he get any?
Well actually Carr might view the Browns as a place that has uncertainty in the QB rankings which is not that far from the truth...Frye isn't a 100% certainty - I don't want to give up on him. But in lieu of that possibly Carr would deem this as one of the more advantageous places for him to come and compete for a starting position.
JMHAssumption
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
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You can't compare Frye's first two seasons to Carr's.... not when Carr was on a expansion team..... JMHO
I think you can in the sense that the level of the talent put on the field is similar. We were in effect a "new" team with poor records, sorely lacking in talent at the end of season two. The similar circumstances, (inferior o-lines, new systems, new coaches, new players, etc.) are very good comparisons, IMO.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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"Here's a question...Cause I have absolutely no idea what his agent will be looking for...What's he worth?"
Lets put it this way...He won't get anything offerred to him that is close to what he thinks he is worth.
Actually he probably would look for the best opportunity for himself to compete and win a starting job. Sign the shortest contract he can...1 or 2 years. So that he can re-enter the FA market...at the beginning where Big Bucks are spent and prove to the NFL what he thinks he's worth.
Thats what I think.
Noway we sign him long term we won't give him that kind of money unless Savage deems him to be a stud waiting to happen??? But I doubt that - right now he's everybit a question mark as Frye is....as stated there is not doubt in my mind he is damaged goods.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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j/c because I'm late to this thread and didn't read it entirely.
For me it boils down to this: (in alphabetical order to keep to my point instead of who should start)
Anderson, Dorsey, Frye
Or
Anderson, Carr, Frye
I still think Phil loves his Oak boys. so Peterson could be the man with Jamals 1 year contract.
Plus Romeo & Phil need to win this year. I rookie qb does not help one bit.
not that I agree with that philosophy but that is the NFL today.
"He who buys what he does not need steals from himself."
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So once again, how do the so called "experts" on this board know diddly "FOR SURE" about Frye?
Exactly my point.
We make a decision based on the limited knowledge and exposure to a particular player that we have.
I stated before that I feel we should trust the people in the organization who are paid to make the tough decisions on a player instead of second guessing them all the time. I was nailed for that comment.
We all like to think we could do a better job than the talent evaluators, coaches, and GM's, but if we could we would have that job.
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I stated before that I feel we should trust the people in the organization who are paid to make the tough decisions on a player instead of second guessing them all the time. I was nailed for that comment.
You're right in the sense that if they felt that Frye was the guy, (recognizing that it was only his second season behing a porous line, recognizing that things like INTs bouncing off receivers, poor timing and poor ball placement, getting rid of the ball quicker, inability to look off defenders, etc. contributed to his rookie-like season and can all be improved on,) they would draft Thomas and move on, (assuming he's there when we pick,) but it's been reported that they've been shopping him. The organization is in effect saying they're looking for someone else.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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We all like to think we could do a better job than the talent evaluators, coaches, and GM's, but if we could we would have that job.
Wouldn't it be nice if the world was really like that? But it's not an you know it.
We've all sat back and watched blunder after blunder. Who didn't know that the Patriots letting Branch go was a mistake? Or that McNair had plenty left in the tank? Or that Favre would have a lousy year? Or that Randy Moss would be a disruption? Or that Terrel Owens would cause problems in Philly?
We see it every day. Kubiak is the same clown that paid Carr $8 mil last year in bonus and passed on drafting Young   Now he cuts Carr, gets nothing in return and signs a guy with six starts to a $48 mil contract and we're supposed to believe that he's final word on QB's?
It's pretty clear he can't even make up his own mind.
There's plenty of cases where the experts and FO's miss the obvious. If you don't believe me just watch Chicago suffer this year without Thomas Jones. Watch Schaub implode.
There's a reason that over 50% of the head coaches in the NFL have been fired in the last two years alone.
It's because the "experts" miss the obvious.
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but it's been reported that they've been shopping him. The organization is in effect saying they're looking for someone else.
So you are basing your thinking on a report that is generated this time of year?
Please don't do that! You will only hurt yourself
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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lol, I get your point, but it doesn't mean it's not true. Do you think it's just rumor with no truth, Daman?
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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lol, I get your point, but it doesn't mean it's not true. Do you think it's just rumor with no truth, Daman?
You want to start counting how many false rumors we've seen so far? Just look around you.
If we traded Frye,how many "NFL starts" would we have at our QB position on this team?
Of course it's false......................
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Lets put it this way...He won't get anything offerred to him that is close to what he thinks he is worth.
Since you seem to be in the know, what does he think he's worth?
#GMSTRONG
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i wouldnt mind carr at the right price. if we over pay ill be mad. but at least we wouldnt draft Russel or Quinn then.
Raiders,Lions,Vikings could all look at him. and he would have a good chance of starting 4 the LIons/Raiders. And im almost certain he would for the vikes. maybe he will go somewhere w/ a better team and want to compete. cause those 3 teams are jus going to be bad next year anways. he probably wants to win. I could see him going to the packers and the packers trading the raiders aaron rodgers and draft picks for randy moss and draft picks. carr wouldtn start over farve but he would have a good chance for winning on a team. and i would deffianlty sign a 3 year contract to be farves back up. cause who knows when he will retire. or if he will get hurt. and once thats done you will have a good chance to start. and if not at the end of those 3 years you woulda got to win and then im surre somebnody would want to try you for a starter.
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Oh hell Cal, I have no real idea if it is or not to be honest! Randy doesn't discuss those things with me But let's just look at a possible situation.. let's say that we are sitting there at three and someone below us wants a QB and either Quinn or Russell are still there (yeah, fat chance but lets say they are) Now, we've spread this rumor that we are shopping Frye which quickly translates into "the Browns are looking for a QB in the draft". Somebody is gonna be very afraid that we are gonna take the remaining QB and may want to give up the farm to get our number 3 pick,,, Is that not reason enough to spread that rumor? I think it's just as possible as any other rumor out there.. So maybe it's a calculated leak.. Just guessing here mind you!
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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lol, I get your point, but it doesn't mean it's not true. Do you think it's just rumor with no truth, Daman?
You want to start counting how many false rumors we've seen so far? Just look around you.
If we traded Frye,how many "NFL starts" would we have at our QB position on this team?
Of course it's false......................
So because it's the time of year for rumor, it means every rumor is false.
Ok 
Ever think that Savage has his eye on a QB with the 3rd pick? Maybe he contacted the Falcons with the idea that Frye would be included in a deal to get Schaub. That's a very legitimate possibility, especially since the Falcons have no backup with a snap of experience (though they just signed Redman *L*).
Sorry, but I believe Frye is available and no longer the lock to be the QB on this team. We may end up with him by default, but there's just too much circumstantial evidence right now that points to Frye falling out of favor. If one report around the league suggested it then was parroted, I'd agree it's BS, but there are just far too many rumblings.
I'm all for giving Frye one more shot, but I'm also all for having someone ready to take the job if Frye falls flat on his face. Anderson is not that guy. Carr could be.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Oh hell Cal, I have no real idea if it is or not to be honest! Randy doesn't discuss those things with me
But let's just look at a possible situation.. let's say that we are sitting there at three and someone below us wants a QB and either Quinn or Russell are still there (yeah, fat chance but lets say they are) Now, we've spread this rumor that we are shopping Frye which quickly translates into "the Browns are looking for a QB in the draft".
Somebody is gonna be very afraid that we are gonna take the remaining QB and may want to give up the farm to get our number 3 pick,,,
Is that not reason enough to spread that rumor? I think it's just as possible as any other rumor out there.. So maybe it's a calculated leak..
Just guessing here mind you!
Yeah, I don't know either, I can see the case for spreading the rumor... I was posting with the supposition that the rumor was true, if it's not, then maybe Charlie is the guy and we do pick up JT and everyone is happy. We'll just have to wait and see.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Yeah I know,, Don't let it get you down,,, those rumors hurt people every year.. they all recover in time for Training camp rumor season
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Ever think that Savage has his eye on a QB with the 3rd pick?
Sorry, but I believe Frye is available and no longer the lock to be the QB on this team. We may end up with him by default,
IF we draft a QB? Sure,let's trade Frye so yet ANOTHER rookie comes in and we have NO QB with any staring experience Toad. Makes perfect sense!
Wheather he's a "lock at starter" or not,we're paying him third round money and he's the ONLY QB we have with starting experience. Even if we DO draft a QB high,you keep Charlie. Unless you're suggesting Phil is a moron?
You don't dump the only QB you have with starting experience just because your drafting a rookie. Especially your current QB with the starting experience is a VERY cheap cap hit. Common sense must dictate at some point.
I don't see "dumping Frye" as a "legitimate possibility" no matter wheather he's penciled in as our starter or not. The possibility lies somewhere between slim and none regardless of what we're doing.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Only way we're getting rid of Frye is if we're bringing in another vet... who knows what we're going to do...
<><
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Only way we're getting rid of Frye is if we're bringing in another vet... who knows what we're going to do...
That may be a possibility,but still seems illogical to me.
We have an experienced QB with what,18 starts? He's making third round draft pick money. Who else can we turn to for a legitimate back-up,veteran QB or not? Where can we get a "game ready" back-up,for third round money with starting experience?
I think letting him go would be a pretty bone headed move no matter what other moves we make at QB when you look at cost and experience of Frye.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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IF we draft a QB? Sure,let's trade Frye so yet ANOTHER rookie comes in and we have NO QB with any staring experience Toad. Makes perfect sense!
Wheather he's a "lock at starter" or not,we're paying him third round money and he's the ONLY QB we have with starting experience. Even if we DO draft a QB high,you keep Charlie. Unless you're suggesting Phil is a moron?
Well Kubiak and the Houston organization must be morons, because they gave up a buttload to hand the starting reigns to a QB with 2 whole starts under his belt.  Beats a rookie, but it does leave question marks.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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How well would Frye take a demotion, to once be the man, to now be holding the clipboard on the sideline? I think he would ONLY want to stay if a Vet came in as a Teacher and short term starter, giving Charlie hope to one day be the man again for Cleveland. The other side of this is...is Carr better then Frye? I have seen Frye march down the field (well running mostly lol) and give us hope to win and did win a few games for us, he is very good QB. is Frye great - no! is Carr great - no! would love to have both on the browns myself, just not sure how much they would love it...
Last edited by DawgFace; 03/25/07 03:02 AM.
Go Browns !!!!
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But don't you get it Pit? Frye didn't throw the ball into the lake from a sitting position at the 50 yard line. He doesn't have a big "S" on his shirt, and have ex-ray vision. He didn't make the pro bowl. He is old and wash up, and has failed to play up to that pro bowl level during his long career. He is washed up already, he's a bum. (Even Stevie Wonder can see the sarcasm in this post)
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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David Carr is a viable FA, veteran QB option for the Cleveland Browns. Carr would vastly improve the Browns current QB situation.  The Browns still don't have a viable NFL starting QB on their roster... Look at the roster again everyone... Want-a-be's... and #3's @ best... The CF guys here are more than generally homers... CF has clearly shown up to this point that he flatly doesn't have "it"... PERIOD. WITHOUT QUESTION!!! He has a weak arm, isn't accurate enough, has below average mechanics, doesn't see the "field" well, can't/hasn't "caught up" to NFL game speed yet, makes lousy decisions, turns it over too much and is hurt too often. CF is far from cutting it as an NFL starter... So stop making excuses for him... Open your eyes, minds and hearts. The Browns need a starting quality QB. The Browns will not win with the QB's we have right now. How can all of us not clearly see this fact. One of the reasons many don’t post here much is because of these types of threads… ANY OTHER STARTING NFL QB IS AN UPGRADE OVER WHAT THE BROWNS HAVE ON THEIR ROSTER RIGHT NOW. Go ahead an dicuss or argue that… It is an embarrassment to see our team in the condition it is in now... We need NFL starting quality @ all of these posit5ions; QB, DT, DE,LT( our LT should be our RT,IMO), RG, WR, DE,OLB, (2) ILB, CB and S. We have NFL quality starters @ PK, P, LS on St's and TE, (1) OLB, (1) S, RB, OG and C. That’s it. We have some young talent that may step up, but until they do, The Browns SUCK... ~!@#$%^&*()_++_)(*&^%$#@!~ I'm sick and damned tired of having these same BS discussions, year in and year out... Our Browns have turned into the game of the week that no other NFL team worries about... I’m tired of a 250 wining percentage… Actually it’s a losing percentage… The Browns still don't know who they are and have no identity... The Browns are the new Lions, Texans & Bengal’s ...     The Browns are without question still one of the worst 3 teams in the NFL and have been since 1999. But go ahead keep posting the same crappy, useless, excuses, drivel and defecation here… I guess one person crap is another person reality.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,897
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,897 |
Boise, I am sure glad your not incharge of the Browns moves,,, we wouldn't have anyone left  Truth is, you may be right about alot of that, but here's the problem. Under the current rules, it's almost impossible to fix all of that in two or three years,,, We just flat out had too dang many problems to start with...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 502
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 502 |
Good points...  I'm certainly not capable at this point in my life to be making personel decisions in the NFL. Although I'm not sure the Browns may not be better off if I did have some say in certain things... Problem is we have been listening to and saying the same things for how many years now??? I would rather not be right about what I wrote... Sadly like you stated I may be... It pains me to see it, think it and write it... To not have at least a good quality O-Line, QB, D-Line, LB's and secondary since 1999 is absurd, unacceptable, ludicrous... They are where they are... And unfortunately so are we... Shouldn't the Browns be competitive, around 500 week in and week out by now??? Take care, be well, hang in and enjoy!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,440
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,440 |
and I, for one, would rather fix the line protecting the QB than fix the QB.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
Quote:
Problem is we have been listening to and saying the same things for how many years now???
Sadly, that is the truth of it.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 305
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 305 |
Dont know if it's been established or not in this thread, but Carr will not be signed by Cleveland.
[color:"white"]
Go Browns
[/color]
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950 |
Everybody is saying Phil needs to pursure and sign this guy..keep a few things in mind... Carr is a FA, he can decide where he goes from those offering him a contact, Money yes it does mean something, but Carr is already a very, very, very rich man, he's been beat up pretty bad over the last few years and picking a place with a established O-line might weight heavey on his decision, it would mine, Carr has been on all loosing teams, going to a contender might be something he wants to do, So dont blame Phil if he dosent pursue to sign this guy, Carr might not even listen to us, our o-line track record isnt the best, sure we have up graded, but it might not be enough. I dont personnley want Carr, but my thoughts mean nothing...
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Officially out: Carr released by
Texans
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