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Wait..who are these two "leaders?"

Cribbs showed he isn't a leader by throwing his head coach under the bus.

If you're suggesting Weeden is a leader, I haven't seen that he is. Now granted you expect your QB to be a leader, but just because Weeden is a QB, that doesn't make him a leader. In fact, his statement has made him anything but a leader.

The only guy earning the "leader" tag is Richardson. Another guy should be Joe Thomas but that's just not his way, at least not publicly. He may be a locker-room leader and we just don't know it because we don't hear much about him. Very few LT's in the game are ever the vocal leaders on a team.

Shurmur is going to pay the ultimate price for his failures and doesn't need help pointing out the fact he's not gotten the job done, but the statements of Cribbs and Weeden aren't the statements of "leaders" but "whiners."

Let's not make the mistake of justifying weak behavior and actions just because the target has failed.

Some accountability around here would be nice...


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Weeden hasn't earned the right to open his pie hole just yet. Shut up and play rookie. If you do enough to stick (definitely not a given at this point), THEN you can speak. Maybe.



I do have a problem with a coach that had 2 weeks to work on a game plan and get the players ready to run said game plan then starts to go outside what was even practiced at all during that 2 week period.

Funny how when Kosar was always changing plays and not doing what Marty wanted everyone loved him but Weeden talking about how plays being called are strange to him people say shut up rookie, even though we all say the same thing.
"What was Shurmur thinking?"

Me personally Im glad someone is calling Pat out to a very limited extent. Shurmur has about as much fire on game day as a burnt out matchstick.
I think that Weeden will become a leader on this team and hes starting to learn that he needs to be a leader.
While I would prefer it be behind closed doors he will learn that as well.
All of course IMHO.

IE If at work the boss is sayng your the problem when in fact s/hes the problem then eventually you have to point this out.


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NFL.com chiming in...

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Brandon Weeden: Browns need to practice all routes
53

By Kareem Copeland
Around the League Writer
Published: Nov. 24, 2012 at 09:57 a.m.
Updated: Nov. 24, 2012 at 11:24 a.m.

We talking about practice. Not a game. Practice.

Well, we're actually are talking about a game, too. Cleveland Browns quarterback Brandon Weeden was high on some throws in overtime against the Dallas Cowboys last week in a 23-20 loss. Weeden was frustrated the Browns hadn't practiced some of the routes that were called.
Harrison: Week 12 predictions
No more bye weeks in the 2012 campaign. What can we expect with all 32 teams in action? Elliot Harrison provides his picks. More ...

"There's a couple of routes we ran on Sunday for the first time all week and that's not fair to me, it's not fair to the receivers, it's not fair to any of us," Weeden told The Plain Dealer on Friday.

Browns coach Pat Shurmur didn't think that was a fair assessment.

"I disagree with some of that because I do think that we make an effort of the ones we're going to call we practice," Shurmur said. "A lot of the plays that we practice, we've been running all year and you run them in training camp. It's nearly impossible with the amount of time and the length of the season to practice every single thing multiple times.

"You see it going on behind me (after practice) right now. They spend extra time working on the individual routes. That's what you've got to do."

An overtime loss will make these issues a topic of conversation, but it's not like Weeden has been accurate all year and then something changed. His 55.3 completion percentage ranks No. 32 in the NFL amongst starting quarterbacks.

Receiver Mohamed Massaquoi wasn't buying the practice thing either.

"Sometimes you may not be sure if you're going to run a play in a game and then you see a look presents itself, and you didn't really put emphasis on it in practice but it's available for the game, so you run it," Massaquoi said.

Weeden is trying to prove over the final stretch that he is the quarterback of the future in Cleveland. Not sure if blaming the way the coach structures practice will help that cause.


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Weird how django didn't follow you into this thread...


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Hehehe...I try not to get into that game, but fall into the trap sometimes. Far too often it comes to bite you in the butt, then you gotta tuck-tail. Poor Mac learned that lesson with Haslam and hasn't been seen or heard from in weeks.

If we start winning, all this stuff goes away.


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He's a rookie. Period. He's been part of the problem. If he was lighting up the league, that would be one thing. He isn't. Actually, the coach he's calling out has called plenty of good plays where everybody executed but him.

Shut up and play rookie. You've got too much to work on to be running your mouth about anything.


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Is it "running his mouth" if he's asked questions about it?

I mean its not like he walks up and has a 15 minute monologue.

The people sitting in the chairs are paid to get quotes that sell papers.


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You can answer questions without tossing anybody under the bus. Leaders don't make excuses or pass the buck. They take responsibility for bad play and move on. Sounds like he has a lot to learn off the field as well.


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I say bench him.....if he is going to become a locker room cancer than snuff it out now before it spreads. Maybe watching Colt will change his tune.


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You can answer questions without tossing anybody under the bus. Leaders don't make excuses or pass the buck. They take responsibility for bad play and move on. Sounds like he has a lot to learn off the field as well.




Someone should tell that to Shurmur.

I think it's pretty obvious that there's been issues between Weeden and Shurmur all season long. Shurmur's thrown Weeden under the bus several times in his pressers, and now that its a foregone conclusion that he (Shurmur) will be looking for work come New Years, I fully expect it to get worse.

Am I happy Weeden called out Shurmur? Nope. Has Shurmur done anything at all to deserve the respect of his players? Absolutely not.

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I dunno. I don't see anything that would tell me the players are feeling disrespected by him. They certainly haven't stopped playing hard for him, and like it or not, his criticisms have been on-target.

I've seen a slowly developing belief that coaches and players have to play footsie in public. When the day is done, coaches are still allowed to criticize players but players aren't allowed to criticize coaches. That's as it should be. So if Shurmur fairly offers criticisms, he's totally entitled to that. It's never a players place to openly criticize the coach. It doesn't have to be perceived as "fair" both ways. It's not a democracy.


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I dunno. I don't see anything that would tell me the players are feeling disrespected by him. They certainly haven't stopped playing hard for him, and like it or not, his criticisms have been on-target.

I've seen a slowly developing belief that coaches and players have to play footsie in public. When the day is done, coaches are still allowed to criticize players but players aren't allowed to criticize coaches. That's as it should be. So if Shurmur fairly offers criticisms, he's totally entitled to that. It's never a players place to openly criticize the coach. It doesn't have to be perceived as "fair" both ways. It's not a democracy.





IE see Mike Singletary ex head coach for example of coachs that use the media to criticize players.
I know its hard for these guys now with the amount of media coverage to keep their nose clean half the time things are misquoted and twisted into something they are not.
I dont think this exactly falls into that realm but Weeden did extend his comments further about the subject. I think they (players and coaches) are all frustrated by the losing. I know i am, and Im not even on the field or being asked about it.


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I dunno. I don't see anything that would tell me the players are feeling disrespected by him. They certainly haven't stopped playing hard for him, and like it or not, his criticisms have been on-target.




I didn't say they felt disrespected by him. I said he hasn't done anything to earn their respect, and I believe that.

On target criticism or not, the buck stops with the coach.

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Of course you believe it. Otherwise you wouldn't have said it

I would imagine that had he not earned the players respect, he wouldn't have lasted even a few games with the team. Has there ever been a head coach that didn't get some respect for his position right out of the gate? That leads me to conclude that losing respect for Shurmur is the out.

I dunno man. It may feel like splitting hairs here, but I've seen players on teams that didn't respect their coach, and those players, as badly as they may want to win, just don't play hard. The easiest example of that was when Butch Davis had to quit. Those players were done with him.

While they may feel Shurmur doesn't have what it takes, I don't sense any lack of respect, either originally, or recently lost.

Well, maybe by Weeden, but he's a damned rookie no matter what his age. Of course...that's the problem, isn't it.


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It may feel like splitting hairs here




Yeah. Call it lack of respect, lack of belief, confidence in his abilities as a coach, whatever. They know they're playing for a lame duck who is incapable of devising a sound game plan week in and week out.

The difference between this team and Butch's last year? A hell of a lot more talent.

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I'm curious: Does he need practice hitting an open receiver?

Does he need practice making accurate throws?

Is he not able to throw a pass without having practiced it 10 times during the week?

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Not too many people taking Weeden's side on this one...

ESPN:

Brandon Weeden was upset after last week's overtime loss to the Dallas Cowboys, and he placed some of the blame for the defeat on Pat Shurmur and the Cleveland Browns coaching staff. Weeden told the Cleveland Plain Dealer that "There's a couple of routes we ran on Sunday for the first time all week and that's not fair to me, it's not fair to the receivers, it's not fair to any of us."

Shurmur's repsonse was that it was impossible to practice every single play multiple times in every practice and hinted that if his young quarterback needed extra reps with his receivers, then that was something Weeden could -- and should -- do on his own.

The complaint came at a strange time, as the Browns were playing the Cowboys following their bye week. Weeden actually had 14 days between starts to get on the same page with his receivers in terms of route-running, so we're going to side with the coach on this one. If there's a change in how the Browns prepare for their games, it's a change Weeden will have to make, especially if he wants to be the team's starting quarterback in 2013.


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Weird how django didn't follow you into this thread...




No worries, just saw the posts now...

Toad trying to polish TRich into a "leader" and Weeden being the moron...what else is new?

Weeds threw Shurmur under the bus...just as Shurmur threw him already twice post game. So Trich is a "leader" for making up a crucial play at the 1yd line, thinking he is superman by making a half arsed jump with one shoulder...but Weeds is the "locker room cancer" for thinking out loud (and calling plays you haven't practiced IS stupid) and then backtracking by blaming himself...he did exactly the same as TRich: he made a mistake and then blamed himself....yet one is the hero and the other the idiot. At least Weeds tried to execute the play that was called and THEN complained...I still think completely making up a play is worse and as disrespectful as it gets...rook or not

Play along, have fun...white mirror ink can pat his vanity and the Weeds haters can pile on

How sad

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which is exactly what I said but in the other direction. If the coaching staff after 2 weeks of prep are calling plays that they didnt prep for whos fault is that, Weedens and the recievers for running the plays they were planning for 2 weeks? or the coaching staff for calling plays they had not introduced into that 2 weeks of practice?

I still find it laughable that Shurmur says Weeden and the recievers should spend their own time on practicing plays that are not part of the designed 2 week prep time game plan. Heck if thats the case they should just design their own plays and ignore Shurmur altogether.

OK weve got a huge client in town this week and really need to deliver on this one. Here is the plan we will exicute then once the client shows up the boss says OK here is some software we didnt use now use it flawlessly for the client. What??(dripping sarcasim) YOU should have practiced with it because I may have wanted you to run it even though I didnt include it in any of my 2 week planning.

Im calling BS on Pat. Rookie QB Rookie RB 2 Rookie WR all should be able to know the whole playbook because they can pull a Camp Colt somewhere?
Anyway its a non issue to me bacause Shurmur isnt going to be here next year.

Rookies will be rookies he will learn when to talk, and what not to say over time.


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http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/inde...t_river_default

.................
8. I've heard that Weeden went to the coaches and apologized, that he realized what he said sounded selfish. The coaches believe this was out-of-character for Weeden, and everyone decided to move on and get ready for Pittsburgh.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

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Mountain meet molehill

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Sure sounds like it.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

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The coach and the Qb need to be on the same page.

This is the coach's fault, ( in baseball the manager lives or dies by his choice of relief pitcher. )
In football the coach does by the play of his quarterback.

Shurmur's job is to make Weeden feel as comfortable as possible. If you are Weeden out there, and the coach is against you, then everyone is. Weeden can't use his authority to go and make amends to Pat, it has to go the other way.

Shurmur should be buying Weeden steak dinners, much like Qb's do for offensive lines, because Weeden is the only bright spot on this entire team.

To say, " we can't practice things more than once". OH MY GOSH!
NO WONDER they lose 10 games + every year.

You should pick one thing and go over it and over it and over it.


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Shurmur should be buying Weeden steak dinners, much like Qb's do for offensive lines, because Weeden is the only bright spot on this entire team.




Please watch the defensive line some time.


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http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/inde...t_river_default

.................
8. I've heard that Weeden went to the coaches and apologized, that he realized what he said sounded selfish. The coaches believe this was out-of-character for Weeden, and everyone decided to move on and get ready for Pittsburgh.


Good for the rookie.

Sounds like he knew it the moment the words came out of his mouth based on his comments about his arm-angle.

Players always think these things but are usually smart enough not to let their emotions get the best of them and spout off. As long as he doesn't do it again he'll be fine.


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This doesn't seem like something that should get it's own thread, and last week's thread is about to disappear, so this thread is the sweet spot...
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By Mary Kay Cabot, The Plain Dealer The Plain Dealer
on November 23, 2012 at 4:41 PM, updated November 24, 2012 at 7:04 AM
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Cleveland Browns' Brandon Weeden said the Browns ran routes in Dallas that they hadn't practiced during the week.

Joey Morona, cleveland.com BEREA, Ohio -- Quarterback Brandon Weeden, in explaining some of his high throws during Sunday's 23-20 overtime loss in Dallas, lamented the fact that the Browns ran some routes that weren't practiced during the week.

"There's a couple of routes we ran on Sunday for the first time all week and that's not fair to me, it's not fair to the receivers, it's not fair to any of us, because when you're getting thrown in the fire and the bullets are flying . . ." Weeden trailed off on that thought and went on to explain that his elbow was low on some of his throws.


In response to the route issue, coach Pat Shurmur said: "I disagree with some of that because I do think that we make an effort of the ones we're going to call we practice. A lot of the plays that we practice, we've been running all year and you run them in training camp. It's nearly impossible with the amount of time and then the length of the season to practice every single thing multiple times. You see it going on behind me (after practice) right now. They spend extra time working on the individual routes. That's what you've got to do."

Weeden acknowledged that it would be impossible to simulate every route in practice.

"These guys can't run forever," he said. "You want to make sure they're fresh throughout the week. And so if we're doing routes and I throw Josh (Cooper) a comeback, when we get in team period I probably won't throw it to him. I'll probably make him my backside read just so I can throw other routes to other guys. You try to spread them out and you know what you're throwing. You've just got to be constant about it because most plays we only run once a practice.

"That means you're throwing to one receiver. That means two or three receivers aren't getting a touch, aren't getting a catch, they're not getting the ball thrown their way. That's tough on them, so (it's) just limited amount of reps. We can't be out there for three hours and we can't go out and run every single route and make every throw. It's tough. That's why I like to do it after practice, walk through them or whatever. And you look at guys like Peyton Manning, that's what he does. Those guys are on point because he takes a lot of pride in being on time with all of his guys."

Receiver Mohamed Massaquoui didn't think it was an issue.

"Sometimes you may not be sure if you're going to run a play in a game and then you see a look presents itself, and you didn't really put emphasis on it in practice but it's available for the game, so you run it," he said. "It's not a matter of if we have enough time to practice. We make sure we get our base fundamental stuff in."

Weeden, who completed 57.1 percent of his passes in Dallas, said he went back and watched all 35 pass plays a third time and then ran through 15 routes after practice on Wednesday. He also worked on them after practice on Friday.



I would have to actually see the interview in order to be sure, but on the surface this sounds like whining and excuse-making on Weeden's part.

Mass sure doesn't seem to think it should have been a problem, and he's no rookie.

If you have run these things in the recent past and you know how it's supposed to be run, there really aren't any excuses for why you missed a throw. Then he goes on to talk about his elbow being too low? So is it the coaches or your technique which caused the wobbly balls to come out?

It's tough saying this about a 29-year old, but...

Settle down, Rookie. I don't see any other players blaming the coaches for their screw-ups...








The biggest thing I took away from this isn't the opportunity to read things out of context and bash a guy for "whining" (a rookie, that is still learning just how much there is to know and learn at this level), but instead that I think we now have a little insight into WHY it can take three years for someone to fully get this offense down and WHY you will not see this offense click on all cylinders right out of the gate.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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Setting aside the fact that he WAS whining (if he wasn't wrong he wouldn't need to go apologize to the coaches), I don't think it has anything to do with the WCO and it's difficulties. Shurmur made it pretty clear that after the team practice is over, it's up to the QB and his receivers to spend extra time working on routes.

That isn't a WCO thing. That's an NFL thing.

As noted earlier, he's a rookie and can be forgiven for spouting off just as long as this is a one-time thing. He's used to being the King of the Hill, but as a rookie in he NFL taking his lumps, he's the frumpy cheerleader at the bottom of the pyramid holding up the pretty chicks. If it happens time after time then you have a problem on your hands.

The only true thing that is worthy of concern on my part isn't that he spouted off, it's that his maturity was touted as being a huge asset. I would expect a 29-year old who has eaten his share of humble pie as a failed pitcher to be able to control his emotions a little better.


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Theres a difference between Manning and Harrison going out and practicing their Route tree every day...

And Weeden and Gordon/Little going over routes that apparently they aren't practicing...

We're talking about practice..


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None of this matters. Shurmur and his crew are gone, Weeden may be as well. The season is in the tank. No one besides Joe T is earning pro-bowl status on this team, and that could be in doubt. The team sucks. The coaching staff sucks. The rookie QB plays like crap at least half the time. Blow it up. Start over. SSDY. The nuance of what is right and wrong in the locker room at this point over some he said, she said B.S. is completely lost on me.

I want Weeden to succeed. I've even seen him make several nice throws. Overall though, he's been unimpressive in his decision making ability, his ability to sustain drives, his red zone play, and in his ability to take charge and win games. I do want him to be the guy, but I seriously have my doubts that he IS the guy.


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First off, teams pull stuff out of the ass end of the playbook all the time, that is why the QB has to study the playbook. Thats on Weeden end of story. Weeden was scared against Dallas and he hit the panic button on more than one occasion. When he gets confused by the defense his feet start dancing, he starts double pumping and you can bet your booty that he is throwing it to the other team or waiting to get it stripped.

Now Shurmur has issues but rookie QB playing the blame game is a sure sign of mental weakness. For all the mature talk, he is coming off as someone not mature enough to handle the position. Whether fair or not that will be the perception. That also sucks since the big thing pimped about Weeden was maturity but even though he is about to hit 30, he is still a rookie.

I dont know if he is the guy or isn't but his comments to the media didnt help his case one bit. Getting Pitt twice to finish off the season is fantastic for his development. If he was confused against the Ravens 3-4 and Ryans chaos, just wait till he gets a look at LeBeau's chaos.

I like Weeden but I do see things that make me think, he just doesnt have it. Panic without pressure is not just a red flag but a big flashing light on top of a pole with strippers swinging from it. It is an attention getter.

He responded well with the strike to Watson and that is an equally positive sign. Maybe he just hit the rookie wall the last few weeks.

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you can bet your booty that he is throwing it to the other team




2 INTs (Total) in his last 4 games. (None against Dallas)


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Actually Weeden did a great job of driving us down the field to the 1 yd line we just didnt get the ball in the endzone. Then when given another shot from inside the 20 he threw a perfect ball to score the go ahead TD. I dont really believe in the panic mode part.
When he was standing in his own endzone and about to be sacked for a safety I think he paniced but he had to get rid of the ball right then and thankfully it was dropped by a D lineman.

Almost every game this year Weeden has missed some wide open recievers that would have gone for scores or huge gains. Those plays will come with time. Even the best QB's miss open players once in awhile.

NRTU but I dont understand all the Weeden may not be here next year comments. Where is he going to go? Hes better then McCoy so even if we go with a new QB next year he would likely start next year while new QB sits and learns or become the backup.

I would be willing to bet 2 dog bones Weeden is on our 53 man roster at the start of next season barring injury.


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Panic without pressure is not just a red flag but a big flashing light on top of a pole with strippers swinging from it. It is an attention getter.

He responded well with the strike to Watson and that is an equally positive sign. Maybe he just hit the rookie wall the last few weeks.





He played scared against the Ravens. He looks scared of pressure even though he has good blocking and due to that often makes hasty, poor decisions. That's my major concern right now. A Twenty-nine-year-old doesn't feel the invincibility a twenty-two-year-old does. A kid 22 can grow into his "mental awareness" while his body takes the punishment, Weeden at 29 may not be inclined to do so.


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you can bet your booty that he is throwing it to the other team




2 INTs (Total) in his last 4 games. (None against Dallas)




That just means the defense was dropping the ball.

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He is also being told to "take care of the ball". Add in that he is seeing some things from defenses that he hadn't seen before, or, in the case of the Ravens game, hadn't been coached on prior to the game, then he may be in "be careful with the ball" mode, even though he believes that he sees open receivers down the field. It is part of the process he is going to go through as he progresses. At first, a gunslinger type thinks that he can make any throw, to any receiver, at any time. Then he comes back to earth, and becomes more careful. Now he has to find that true, middle balance, where he sees and understands when a receiver is open, and when he is not, and when he has a better than not chance at making a play, and when he doesn't.


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I can't see anything he writes because my cell phone doesn't adjust for white text on white background.
I really like Weeden, and I think he's done enough to deserve an extended look into next season ( don't get rid of him). That said, his comments were whining. He should have the presence of mind to know that his head coach is gone after this season. Just take your lumps this season and look forward to next season.
Good to know that the coaches and the players have put this behind them, but I really didn't expect anything else. I hope they understand the opportunity they have this weekend with Pittsburgh coming to town with such a depleted roster, and just as we are getting healthy. Hopefully we see them come out with right amount of focus and energy.


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I can't see anything he writes because my cell phone doesn't adjust for white text on white background.




lucky you


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I would have to actually see the interview in order to be sure, but on the surface this sounds like whining and excuse-making on Weeden's part.




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It's tough saying this about a 29-year old, but...

Settle down, Rookie. I don't see any other players blaming the coaches for their screw-ups...




So I take it between these two statements you did your reasearch on the interview and its context?

Nah, I doubt it. So you just throw crap out there after even saying yourself you couldn't be sure?

Sounds like typical Toad......



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Maybe you ignored how he apologized to the coaches. He does that, then I don't need to see anything else.

You only apologize if you screw up.

But don't let the truth get in the way of you doing what you do best, which is pick fights for the sake of picking fights.


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I don't think he is playing scared but rather he is playing unsure. He is unsure of the offense because he doesn't know it as well as a Qb should. That is just the way it is with a rookie Qb (and some veterans). Then he is told not to throw interceptions and he is playing more cautious and unsure. I think this is leading to some of his accuracy problems. Instead of just throwing the ball he is trying to place it where it needs to be. As a former college pitcher when I would just rear back and through I had tremendous accuracy but when I started to get cautious and place the ball my accuracy would fail. Now Add in some accuracy issues and he is playing even more unsure himself.

Instead of having a coach breaking down his confidence he needs a coach who has his back. Shurmur should be trying to build Weeden's confidence. Instead of saying don't throw interceptions he should be saying just throw the ball. Consequences be damned. I think this would get better results from Weeden in the immediate time frame and better development over the long haul.


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