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I think the fact that Heckert has been silent for awhile might speak volumes.
I think if Banner wants to retain him,would it be in a lesser capacity?
if thats the case I think Heckert wants to go somewhere where he doesn't doesn't
have play 2nd fiddle or fetch coffee for someone.
he won't be unemployed for long.
He could end up in San Diego where A.J Smith and Turner are on borrowed time
Could be I suppose. Don't know.
All I'm saying is this, if it's a straight up deal, Heckert is as good as or better than anyone on that list.
That's not to say that someone that isn't on that list isn't better suited to this job under Banner. Just saying, on that list, I don't see a sure fire winner-can't miss kinda guy.
Do you?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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maybe Gamble...but even though I have been "anti Heckert" I can say his drafts seem to get better year by year. The Browns 2012 Draft is as good as anyones in the AFC.
If the Browns retain Heckert as GM,at least you still have continuity.
I think Weeden is the key.
If Heckert walks,its not the end of the world in Berea
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Quote:
All I'm saying is this, if it's a straight up deal, Heckert is as good as or better than anyone on that list.
That's not to say that someone that isn't on that list isn't better suited to this job under Banner. Just saying, on that list, I don't see a sure fire winner-can't miss kinda guy.
Do you?
No such thing... every one of them comes with a risk... which is why you don't get rid of an A- guy in hopes of finding an A+ guy because usually you end up with a C+ guy...
yebat' Putin
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Banner is on record saying he will look EVERYWHERE and then make the BEST DECISION....so if the best (track record and performance) decision is Heckert, but he fires him because of personal agenda stuff, we're back to double tongue speech
Then he (Banner) will just fire Heckert and say the new guy is the best guy for the job. He doesn't have to tell the truth. And we won't even know if the guy is better than Heckert till three years down the road anyway.
I totally understand if Haslam/Banner fire Heckert and hire there own guy. Do I want them to do that? No. But if I'm running a giant company, I want a guy I am 100% comfortable with and confident in sitting next to me. Not some guy that was hired by the previous owner. It makes sense to fire Heckert if you are Haslam/Banner.
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Sure, but why fool the fans with the "I'll look everywhere and make the best possible decision" bla bla...how dumb does he think are we, if he thinks he can sell us a Kokinis as an upgrade to Heckert?
I was so happy that the double tongue approach of Butch and Mangini are long gone...at least H&H were straight shooters on most important issues. Theses guys are steps back into the "I'm smarter than anyone thus I say nothing to nobody" approach...they're two-faced, it's not hard to see for me, but I guess that's just my opinion, so sorry if I can't come up with a scientific proof of that...I had the same "gut feeling" with Mangini, although I think Banner is MUCH smarter, but I still don't trust him to make smart football related decisions...and hiring a GM and HC ARE....
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It's not about having "Their own guy"
It's about control.
Heckert left Philly to have it here.
Now Banner gets to decide if be keeps it. And if he doesn't. Then he's gone.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I forgot that clevelandbrowns.com and "sources" is considered 100% the TRUTH!
By the way meeting a French model for dinner tonight. If its on the Internet it must be true!
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#GMSTRONG
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Yea, the French model in the commercial sure isn't a she...
yebat' Putin
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I just saw him on TV. He says "bon jour".
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
All I'm saying is this, if it's a straight up deal, Heckert is as good as or better than anyone on that list.
That's not to say that someone that isn't on that list isn't better suited to this job under Banner. Just saying, on that list, I don't see a sure fire winner-can't miss kinda guy.
Do you?
No such thing... every one of them comes with a risk... which is why you don't get rid of an A- guy in hopes of finding an A+ guy because usually you end up with a C+ guy...
You are preaching to the choir my friend.
I suppose that one of the biggest hurdles might end up being how banner frames the GM job going forward. What the duties are, what responsibilities would the GM have, what authority level etc.
Heckert may get offered the job to remain, but he may not like the terms of that offer. it could end up being that simple.
Banner said that he envisions the coach getting the say on the final roster. I think that Heckert has that now.
Now taking that one step further, does anyone believe that Banner is going to leave the decision on the final roster in Shurmurs hands?
Another question is this, what "wannabe" GM wants a job that doesn't include final say on the roster?
The GM is judged on who he brings to the team. And by CAP management as well I'd think. If, in the end, he's not in control of those things, why would anyone want that job?
He won't be able to pick the players, he can't control the CAP (Banner said he's that guy) and he hasn't any say in the final roster. that's not a GM job, that's a scout job.
Who'd want it?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Uh oh. 
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If we are really going to give Full Roster control to the HC.
Then it has to be either Gruden, or Chip Kelly.
There is no way you give that much responsibility (and workload) to a rookie Head Coach...
From what I hear, Belicheck has been talking with Kelly as it relates to Offense, so MAYBE some of his schemes and system can work in the NFL.
As long as he can come in, and LEAVE THE DEFENSE ALONE. Juaron has his problems, but the way the defense has played when it's fully together (Philly, Pitt games) is what we need to keep. Add 3 players (RDE, CB, Competent FS) and it's a Top 5-10 unit.
I like Kelly's fire. I just don't know if his ego can handle the NFL game.
Gruden I want NOTHING to do with... To me he's a guy that always got way to much credit for things that happened around him.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Heckert may get offered the job to remain, but he may not like the terms of that offer. it could end up being that simple.
I get the feeling this is exactly what it will come down to. I don't think Heckert will be fired. He will keep final say (stay) or not (leave). I really want him to stay. I believe he thinks that Banner will want final say (hence him asking around for jobs in the preseason, allegedly), and I believe that he is right... and will leave.
One thing to keep in mind then, is that having final say is a pretty big component for a lot of top guys to make a jump. That will knock some of the more qualified candidates off the list.
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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If the GM position here does NOT have final say...
Than it really isn't a GM position..
Basically like someone said, you're a Scout. Maybe you're THE Scout of the team, and you get to look up all the talent, but if you don't get to pick from it, what's the point?
"If I'm going to be asked to cook the meal, I'd like to be able to pick the groceries."
- Bill Parcells
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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People seem to keep confusing the concepts of full roster control and final say... somebody has to have final say, whether its the coach or the GM, but if this organization is going to work AT ALL, everybody will have input. Everybody from the position coaches to the coordinators to the HC to the GM to the cap guy is going to have to provide their input... some people (not you) act like if the HC or the GM (or even Banner) has final say he's going to sit in a dark room by himself checking boxes of who stays and who goes... That plan is destined to fail, I don't care who the HC or GM is and how qualified they are...
Obviously not every final decision is going to make everybody in the room happy, somebody has to be the guy at the end that says, "This is the decision...." I'm less concerned about who that guy is than I am about the overall process of getting to that point.
yebat' Putin
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Hasn't Banner already said Final word goes through him?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Hasn't Banner already said Final word goes through him?
He said something to that effect but it seems to me that he was talking about for the rest of this year until he figures out who is going to be here next year. I think he was specifically referring to Holmgren, that he would not have final say as a lame duck President...
yebat' Putin
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If the GM position here does NOT have final say...
Than it really isn't a GM position..
Basically like someone said, you're a Scout. Maybe you're THE Scout of the team, and you get to look up all the talent, but if you don't get to pick from it, what's the point?
I agree 100%. That's why I think the discussion is whether Banner wants final say or not. It seems like he does and that's why I think Heckert will leave. This whole powerplay feel scares the crap out of me. But what else is new? Show something positive, immediately blow it up.
Damn this team makes me negative... 
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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I'm with the overwhelming majority that says keep Heckert. Let him finish what he started. If you watch this team, you can see all the young talent flying around the field. The hardest years are over. This guy should be able to enjoy the next few years of now taking the next step to building a legitimate contender.
If Haslam and Banner get rid of him, I get it. They're all new guys with no connection to anybody who was with the team. They want to bring in their people. I just hope they don't fire him just because they feel like they have to. If you're going to do it, you better have one hell of a man in place.
I'm not saying Heckert is the best GM in the league. This team still didn't get the end results on the field (although you can blame some of that on coaching, and he didn't hire Shurmur which I believe is a plus in the case of keeping Heckert). The way he has built this thing is impressive. Blew it up from the inside, never got tempted by the big FA signing.
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People seem to keep confusing the concepts of full roster control and final say... somebody has to have final say, whether its the coach or the GM, but if this organization is going to work AT ALL, everybody will have input. Everybody from the position coaches to the coordinators to the HC to the GM to the cap guy is going to have to provide their input... some people (not you) act like if the HC or the GM (or even Banner) has final say he's going to sit in a dark room by himself checking boxes of who stays and who goes... That plan is destined to fail, I don't care who the HC or GM is and how qualified they are...
Obviously not every final decision is going to make everybody in the room happy, somebody has to be the guy at the end that says, "This is the decision...." I'm less concerned about who that guy is than I am about the overall process of getting to that point.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not confused about this at all.
I'm sure that in every organization decisions are made after much discussion and review of players.. each person in the room will most likely say which player(s) to keep and in the end, one person has the final responsibility to say yea or nay.
Heckert was, until the switch, the man with that final say. That's the job he was hired to do. Now, things have changed and unless he agrees to what would appear to be a lesser role, he may say, that's fine, but that's not what I signed up for so Im outta here.
GM's want that responsibility. That's what they live for. That's how they get looked at as the next Bill Polian.
Remember one of the knocks on Heckert when he came here? It was that, how much of the final decision did he have? Some folks were on here talking about that he was just a figure head GM and not really the final say.
Having final say is a big deal for GM's. That's how they are judged.
I think we've seen with these drafts so far, that the kid knows what the hell he's doing. and the funny thing is, he seems to be getting better each year. This last draft would be one that anyone could be proud of. (sure, the jury is still out on Weeden)
Personally, like so many on here, (you included it appears), I'd rather he stay.
I don't see an available can't miss candidate out there that is even one bit better which is why I wouldn't understand if they let him get out of town.
I don't have a say in the matter so like you, I'm forced to accept who they put in and hope they are an improvement.
JMO..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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I'm sure there are qualified guys out there who could do a good job and spot good talent, even if we find one, he not only has to be good at what he does, he has to want to keep pulling the sled in the same direction Heckert was... if he wants to go a different direction, even if he's good, we are still talking about years to make the change.
yebat' Putin
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I'm sure there are qualified guys out there who could do a good job and spot good talent, even if we find one, he not only has to be good at what he does, he has to want to keep pulling the sled in the same direction Heckert was... if he wants to go a different direction, even if he's good, we are still talking about years to make the change.
Oh yeah,, of course, Heckert isn't the only guy out there that can do the job,, But the second part of what you said is what has me thinking that changing horses in midstream is a mistake.
Changing a coach probably isn't nearly as hard.. I mean, if we run a 4-3 D, and a WCO.. all you need is a guy that has a vision of those and bring him in. it won't change the learning curve that much. Things will be similar.
But if Shurmur goes, Chilly will as well.. But I bet Jauron stays.. just a guess. he's getting a lot out of the talent he has..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I'm sure there are qualified guys out there who could do a good job and spot good talent, even if we find one, he not only has to be good at what he does, he has to want to keep pulling the sled in the same direction Heckert was... if he wants to go a different direction, even if he's good, we are still talking about years to make the change.
This is one of the bigger reasons that I don't want ANY change (other than it being something we've never tried here, lol).
For the first time that I can think of, we have a coaching staff and GM/talent evaluators that all seem to be on the same page. The players getting brought in actually fit what we're trying to do on the field. It's almost ... strange.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Another question is this, what "wannabe" GM wants a job that doesn't include final say on the roster?
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Tom Heckert, Jr.:
Heckert first went to the Eagles as Director of Player Personnel in 2001 before being promoted to Vice President of Player Personnel in 2003. He helped Eagles coach Andy Reid assemble a team that went to four straight NFC Championship Games from 2001 to 2004, and to Super Bowl XXXIX. He was promoted to General Manager on January 2, 2006. However, he served mainly in an advisory role to Reid, who also serves as executive vice president of football operations and has the final say in football matters.
Heckert was that guy once.
I think Banner would be doing everyone a disservice if he moved Heckert out of the way, but I understand the move. Why?
Because if Randy Lerner still owned the team, Mike Holmgren would still be pulling Heckert's strings...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Quote:
Another question is this, what "wannabe" GM wants a job that doesn't include final say on the roster?
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Tom Heckert, Jr.:
Heckert first went to the Eagles as Director of Player Personnel in 2001 before being promoted to Vice President of Player Personnel in 2003. He helped Eagles coach Andy Reid assemble a team that went to four straight NFC Championship Games from 2001 to 2004, and to Super Bowl XXXIX. He was promoted to General Manager on January 2, 2006. However, he served mainly in an advisory role to Reid, who also serves as executive vice president of football operations and has the final say in football matters.
Heckert was that guy once.
I think Banner would be doing everyone a disservice if he moved Heckert out of the way, but I understand the move. Why?
Because if Randy Lerner still owned the team, Mike Holmgren would still be pulling Heckert's strings...
Well, that makes no sense., Lerner doesn't own the team and Holmgren is gone. heckert and banner worked together before. that either means they know each other and neither has any desire to work together again, or it means they understand each other and can work well together.
I don't know which, but this I do know, Lerner and Holmgren are out of the picture, so I don't get why it would be a concern at all.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Banner and Heckert can work together, yes...
It's just that if Banner wants to take away the reason Heckert came here in the firs place (final say)
Why would Heckert stay here?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Banner and Heckert can work together, yes...
It's just that if Banner wants to take away the reason Heckert came here in the firs place (final say)
Why would Heckert stay here?
I know, that's what I've been saying...
I can't think of a reason that any GM Wannabe would not turn the job down if they don't get final say.. Unless they were a Super Scout that only wanted the responsibility of being the guru that finds the talent for someone else to evaluate. To me, that's not my understanding of the GM position..
But, one thing I've learned in 35+ years in HR, Titles don't mean a thing, it's the duties and pay that tell the whole story.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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If I'm Banner, and Heckert is willing to stay here...
I keep him solely for the PR move..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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If I'm Banner, and Heckert is willing to stay here...
I keep him solely for the PR move..
Under those circumstances, why would heckert stay? If he's serious about his career, that would be a monumental mistake to stay as a puppet. The kid has proven beyond a doubt that he can be an effective GM.. he'll land a job in a NY Second somewhere where his talents will be taken seriously.
Wouldn't surprise me at all to see him end up back at Philly if they do a complete shake up which many reporters are saying could happen.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I'd like to see him in SD if AJ Smith and Norv FINALLY get the can...
EDIT: I'd LOVE for him to stay here. Obviously. Doubtfully.
Last edited by OSGuy; 11/30/12 11:05 AM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I'd like to see him in SD if AJ Smith and Norv FINALLY get the can...
EDIT: I'd LOVE for him to stay here. Obviously. Doubtfully.
Somebody would love to have him.,, Who knows, it could be whereever Holmgren goes if he decided to jump back into the pool..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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I'd like to see him in SD if AJ Smith and Norv FINALLY get the can...
EDIT: I'd LOVE for him to stay here. Obviously. Doubtfully.
If he ended up in SD, he very well could be reunited w/ Andy Reid . . .
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Quote:
I'd like to see him in SD if AJ Smith and Norv FINALLY get the can...
EDIT: I'd LOVE for him to stay here. Obviously. Doubtfully.
If he ended up in SD, he very well could be reunited w/ Andy Reid . . .
and bring Dick Jauron
#gmstrong
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Put me down on record on saying if Heckert is let go or leaves it will be the biggest mistake since Art moved the team out of Cleveland. Throw in any stupid stupid smiley faces you want here but I for one would be pissed.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Put me down on record on saying if Heckert is let go or leaves it will be the biggest mistake since Art moved the team out of Cleveland. Throw in any stupid stupid smiley faces you want here but I for one would be pissed.
I think a lot of us would be GM, but what the heck can we do about it?
My view is, hey,, if they wanna dump Heckert, or reduce his responsibilities to a point that he doesn't want the job,, then they need a plan to replace him with someone better.. for me, I think that's a helluva tall order.
But, if they do happen to get someone that turns out to be better,, I, like everyone else, will be fine with the move. But if anyone is looking for a "can't miss" guy, good luck, there just isn't one out there that I can see that is available.
None better than Heckert anyway.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Its making its 2nd round now and that makes me unhappy. Mike Lombardi set to return to Browns as general manager? December 01, 2012 11:36 AM Written by Steve King Are the wheels of change already turning in the Browns front office? Maybe. Or maybe not. But Hub Arkush, the editor and publisher of Pro Football Weekly for over 31 years, is reporting this week on his syndicated radio show, Pro Football Weekly, that he has heard from numerous sources that Mike Lombardi will be named general manager of the Browns following the season. Whether that's true or not is anyone's guess. However, the well-respected Arkush is pretty connected and does not say things just to be outlandish and draw attention to himself, his publication or his show, so if he reported it, then there must be something to it. And it should be pointed out that whispers of Lombardi's impending return to Cleveland – he previously worked with the Browns from 1987-95 – have been heard for about a month or more. As the old saying goes, where this's smoke, there's usually fire. What we do know is that there is a connection between Lombardi, 53, and new Browns CEO Joe Banner in that they worked together with the Philadelphia Eagles for two years, 1997-98. After serving as a consultant to team owner Jeffrey Lurie the first year, he was promoted to director of pro personnel. From there he went to the Browns' opponent on Sunday, the Oakland Raiders, from 1999-2007 as senior personnel executive to owner Al Davis. He has covered the NFL for various media outlets since then. Lombardi was first hired as a scout with the Browns in 1987, and then in May 1989, a month before his 30th birthday, he was named pro personnel director. He was promoted to player personnel director in 1994 and held that post until the original franchise left Cleveland following the 1995 season. He was not among the staff members who o accompanied the franchise to Baltimore, where it became the Ravens. If Lombardi does indeed join the Browns, then it would almost certainly mean the exit of current GM Tom Heckert, who has held the position since Jan. 11, 2010. Heckert also worked with Banner in Philadelphia, though he de didn't join the team until 2001, three years after Lombardi departed. Banner has denied reports that he and Heckert did not get along during their time with the Eagles. New Browns owner Jimmy Haslam said late this week that there will be no personnel moves until after the season, which will end for the team with a game at Pittsburgh on Dec. 30. But that doesn't preclude planned changes being put together behind the scenes, and this would obviously be a major one. Linky
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Lombardi doesn't even sound like he knows what he's talking about on nflnetwork... and he's prepped on that show.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,156
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,156 |
That article activated my gag reflex. How in the hell is Lombardi an upgrade?
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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