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I'm not sure what to think about the whole GM issue.
Part of me thinks they said what needed to be said about coaching having a say
just to pique interest in heavy weights who may be interested.
Maybe if a less experienced coach is hired they go with a GM?
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I just think we have to be realistic here.
In a real world scenario, what top flight GM prospect would want to work under a scenario where both the owner and team president would want to collaberate and expect a concensus before you could draft a player?
Then, you say the HC has the call on the roster.
So other than scouting, the GM would have very little if any power to make the call on anything.
Even if this was their thinking, I believe putting that out in public was a pretty bone headed move that will make potential candidates rather reluctant. I mean it's pretty hard to tell a potential GM candidate....................
"Hey, we were only joking! It was just a PR stunt to decieve HC'ing candidates. You know, just to kind of lure them in. We would of course never do that to you."
When it comes to both Banner and Haslam doing a lot of talking before this process is final, I think less is more.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Tumbler?
Like a gymnast? I don't understand.
Tumbler.. like inside a lock... when all of the tumblers fall into place, the lock will open.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
I'm not sure what to think about the whole GM issue.
Part of me thinks they said what needed to be said about coaching having a say
just to pique interest in heavy weights who may be interested.
Maybe if a less experienced coach is hired they go with a GM?
That is my feeling on it. They said the are not hiring a GM until a coach is hired because they have no idea what type of control any potential hire will want/need whatever. If the new coach is strong in the personal side they will go with a personal director type.
If the coach wants to just be a coach then they will look for a legit GM.
I think Toad is correct that any team in the playoffs they must seek permission from to interview possible hires and only on their off weeks. Seeing as this is Friday it would be tough to get an interview in so fast, so its probably just the Browns letting him know they are interested.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Quote:
I'm not sure what to think about the whole GM issue.
Part of me thinks they said what needed to be said about coaching having a say
just to pique interest in heavy weights who may be interested.
Maybe if a less experienced coach is hired they go with a GM?
It's muddy, 'oldmutt.
On one hand, any smart fan knows to NEVER trust what the talking heads say no matter what. If they are always telling the truth, they are giving away advantages to the opposition. However, in the case of Banner, we absolutely know how his structure has worked in the past, so when he says he intends on having the head coach with some power, it's most-likely accurate.
Banner says they'll hire a coach first then a personnel man second (I'm no longer going to call that person a "GM" because that term is ambiguous and will lead to misinterpretation). If you hire a head coach who has a ton of experience on his resume, like Saban, you'll need a less-experienced or influential personnel man. Conversely, if you hire a head coach who has very little experience, like one of the Kelley's, then you'll need a personnel man who has more experience.
Now further complicating the dynamic while simultaneously making sense of it is the fact that you don't want to necessarily hire a personnel man until you know what kind of system your head coach is going to run. If you get a more traditional guy like Saban, he'll most-likely run a more traditional offense. If Chip Kelly comes here, he'll run something different. That situation will alter what kind of personnel man you go after.
The one thing I believe as of right now is that the "GM" will be that in name only, as he won't actually be "generally managing" anything. Hell, truth be told, Tom Heckert didn't do that. Holmgren was the micro-manager. Heckert was just the personnel man.
So what you're really questioning...at least in so far as how I'm reading your statement...is how much experience and control the personnel man will have. That really will depend on the coach, but no matter what, Banner is the CEO, Sheiner is the President, and they'll have a football guy whose primary role will be personnel.
The most applicable definition of the term "GM" won't apply to this team. Many of those duties are being spread amongst the other newly-formed positions.
(and after what I just said, I'm not sure I helped at all  )
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Is it possible that Haslam and Banner aren't evil and have good intentions? Maybe they are willing to give up some of there hypothetical control in order to get good people to come.
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Duh.
I don't know why I couldn't make that connection,thanks.
BTW what the heck is YOLO?
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Duh.
I don't know why I couldn't make that connection,thanks.
BTW what the heck is YOLO?
No problem.. sometimes the obvious escapes us.
You Only Live Once.. it's a saying teenagers have adopted and they frequently use it as justification for doing stupid crap...
yebat' Putin
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Teenagers,Ha.
I was into YOLO long before it became popular.Didn't know I was such a trendsetter.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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LOL me to Im glad you asked because I didnt want to ask why I was an idiot.  I also had no clue what that stood for.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Quote:
Is it possible that Haslam and Banner aren't evil and have good intentions? Maybe they are willing to give up some of there hypothetical control in order to get good people to come.
I would hope that to be the case. However they just held a press confrence that strongly indicated otherwise.
I'm sure their intentions are good but when you have an innexperienced owner sometimes even the best of intentions go horribly wrong. A lot will be determined here shortly in which path they take to give us "The best candidate out there for the job" as promised.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Banner says they'll hire a coach first then a personnel man second (I'm no longer going to call that person a "GM" because that term is ambiguous and will lead to misinterpretation). If you hire a head coach who has a ton of experience on his resume, like Saban, you'll need a less-experienced or influential personnel man. Conversely, if you hire a head coach who has very little experience, like one of the Kelley's, then you'll need a personnel man who has more experience.
This is my thinking exactly.
What they did imo is cast a wide net that didn't limit any options.
I believe that their first choice was an established coach i.e. a saban or cowher type.
These type of guys would want full control...so a guy like heckert is out...along with any up and coming gm that would want and get full control.
Haslam and banner wisely left the door open for the other option.
A coach with little player acquisition experience....i.e kelly.
They are not going to want to repeat the "butch davis" debacle.
It remains to be seen what kind of gm they will get but i'll bet its someone that will get a little more power over personell decisions.
All i know is that I don't care what they decide....just do it and for the love of God stay the damn course.
I don't care what system we run on either offense or defense, if we don't give it time then the results will always suck. You can win with all of them with solid drafting and allowing the players to grow and gain experience.
Haslam better stay the course, otherwise we'll see more of the same.... Cincinnati figured it out for cryin' out loud...we better do the same.
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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j/c
I really hope we don't hire Lombardi. However, it isn't because I think he's a bum (which I have questions about, believe me). It's because I'd love to see all these media people totally shot down.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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You know what ....... I wonder if maybe we hire Lombardi as Director of Pro Player personnel, and someone else as GM?
There have been tons of reports that Lombardi is working on free agency for the Browns. That would fit into a Director of Pro Player Personnel type job. There has been no mention of him looking at the draft at all.
I see us with this supposedly long term relationship with Lombardi ..... yet we're asking permission to interview Tom Gamble. I doubt that the 49'ers would allow him to interview for a parallel job. Maybe he becomes the GM, and Lombardi is Pro Personnel.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Why can't you just trust this guy Rish?
Have faith !
HaHa! Great post! That IS the real problem with Banner-he may be the greatest guy in the world, but he LOOKS like a weasel! Time will tell.
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You know what ....... I wonder if maybe we hire Lombardi as Director of Pro Player personnel, and someone else as GM?
I don't see that as happening, Ytown, and here's why...
I've ditched using the term "GM" here all-together. The reason is because the roles applied to that position have already been somewhat divided up. We brought in a "President" to handle some of the business stuff. We're going to hand some of the personnel control over to the Head Coach. Banner will handle the trades and negotiations. What's left besides some scouting and the like? If we do hire a "GM" it'll be just a title on a business card. We're bringing in a personnel guy. Anything more is just bloating the Boardroom table, an act of redundancy.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I just think we have to be realistic here.
In a real world scenario, what top flight GM prospect would want to work under a scenario where both the owner and team president would want to collaberate and expect a concensus before you could draft a player?
Then, you say the HC has the call on the roster.
So other than scouting, the GM would have very little if any power to make the call on anything.
Even if this was their thinking, I believe putting that out in public was a pretty bone headed move that will make potential candidates rather reluctant. I mean it's pretty hard to tell a potential GM candidate....................
"Hey, we were only joking! It was just a PR stunt to decieve HC'ing candidates. You know, just to kind of lure them in. We would of course never do that to you."
When it comes to both Banner and Haslam doing a lot of talking before this process is final, I think less is more.
You want realistic, I think I can give you something that is a realistic possiblity
First, take the title GM and toss it out the window. Banner has called that position either GM or Player personnel. There is no guarantee that we will have a person with the title GM at all.
As for who would want the job,, I think someone that is young, lacks the creditials and is looking to build a resume but has shown a strong skill set that could develop. Think Tom Heckert 12 years ago.
That's who.
If we go with Kelly, I'd have hoped we'd have gone with an experienced GM. But as of this moment, everything is pointing to Kelly (don't blink, that could change quickly) and if that happens, then I will agree with you, what experienced GM would want that job (outside of a loser like Lombardi who would probably take any job)
So if it's Kelly as HC, and a young up and coming personnel man in the role of finding talent, we could be in for some really bad drafts and FA pickups.
or, the whole thing could work just like it did for Banner when he hired Reid in Philly.
It's a coin toss..
But it's realistic, it's something that could end up happening.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Quote:
Quote:
You know what ....... I wonder if maybe we hire Lombardi as Director of Pro Player personnel, and someone else as GM?
I don't see that as happening, Ytown, and here's why...
I've ditched using the term "GM" here all-together. The reason is because the roles applied to that position have already been somewhat divided up. We brought in a "President" to handle some of the business stuff. We're going to hand some of the personnel control over to the Head Coach. Banner will handle the trades and negotiations. What's left besides some scouting and the like? If we do hire a "GM" it'll be just a title on a business card. We're bringing in a personnel guy. Anything more is just bloating the Boardroom table, an act of redundancy.
Well, like I said, I doubt that San Francisco will allow Gamble to leave, essentially, for a lateral move. That's why it makes sense for them to hire a GM and a Pro Personnel guy.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Yeah, I see what you're saying. Makes perfect sense. When I say I'm ditching the term "GM" it's to simplify the discussions.
If we went after a bigger name they could call the position "Assistant GM to the CEO" or whatever they wanted to disguise it so they could hire a guy.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I think that with a hiring Kelly that a strong GM would be brought in to run our draft room. Somebody more like Gamble or Caldwell than a Lombardi. I don't know but I don't get the sense that Kelly wants to be that all powerful HC who runs the draft room as well. I see him wanting to focus on the x's and o's. JMHO
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Think that you're right in one sense. That is, that Chip Kelly doesn't necessarily want to have control of the drafting. He will probably want to be able to voice his opinion, but he likely won't care if he makes the final choice. He'll take who he has on the roster and decide who starts and who doesn't. I think that he might also have input on who the GM or Director of Player Personnel is because he'll have to be comfortable with them. I think it's going to be easier to find a GM that'll work with Kelly than to find a GM that Kelly will work with. On a further note, former Browns GM has told the NY Jets, thanks but no thanks. He canceled an interview with them citing concerns over the Jets salary cap hell as the reason for not even giving them serious consideration. The Jets are well on their way to having the overall #1 pick in the 2014 NFL draft.
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No details have come out of the interview! Kelly is on record as saying he does NOT need full control. So whether that means he does fill that role, They hire a quasi GM or Banner does it all himself remains to be seen.
I wasnt on the Banner wagon but I dont understand those acting like he's never been around the game.
I'm impressed we apparently identified a guy and went you know whats to the wall to get him! The old regime would have diddled themselves then hired the tenth best candidate!
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I think that with a hiring Kelly that a strong GM would be brought in to run our draft room.
Well I guess you could call it "running the draft room". That is as long as their is a "concensus" with Banner and Haslam on the selections.
Which to me tells me who's really "running the draft room".
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I think you're right, old mutt.
There are lots of people, especially on ESPN Cleveland, that think that Saban was Haslam's and Banner's #1 choice. I don't really think so. Remember that they stated in their press conference after firing Shurmur & Heckert that they wanted to bring in an innovative HC that would bring fresh new ideas and a new culture to Cleveland Browns football. Remember, that they also said that they wanted a coach to be there for a very long time. I tend to think that means that they wanted to go with a relatively youthful HC.
Chip Kelly is 48 or 49 years old (I've seen both reported) and Saban is 62. Arians is 60. Neither one is a very long-term answer. John Gruden is still only 49 years old and fits the bill, but it's obvious that he'd want a lot of control. Bill O'Brien was a good possibility too, he's only 43, and his name will come up again in future NFL HC hiring discussions.
In my view, with new perspective taking all things that have happened since that post-Shurmur firing press conference, I think that Chip Kelly has always been the #1 target the entire time. If they don't land him, I think that their next calls will probably be to either Doug Marrone or John Gruden.
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They hire a quasi GM or Banner does it all himself remains to be seen.
That's the real issue here. Banner has no experience as a GM.
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I wasnt on the Banner wagon but I dont understand those acting like he's never been around the game.
That's not it either. What the concern is, amounts to him wanting absolute final say on every aspect of everything. Like being in the draft room and both he and Haslam saying that "If there isn't a concensus maybe we shouldn't draft the guy."
The problem as some see it, at least as I see it, is that Banner wants to have SO MUCH input in matters of this team that he has absolutely no experience at.
Let's say that Kelly gets hired..... Here's the picture that gives me much concern.....
We have a HC that has a grand total of four years HC experience in the NCAA. We have a guy who has the final say in the war room on draft day with zero experience in drafting players along with an owner who himself says "he has a lot to learn". He too must agree with the draft selections because there must be a "concensus" among all of them as was plainly stated in the press conference the other day.
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I'm impressed we apparently identified a guy and went you know whats to the wall to get him! The old regime would have diddled themselves then hired the tenth best candidate!
Are you speaking of Banner here? It was widely reported that Banner was a part of the package when Haslam bought the team and it was announced very shortly afterwords. Haslam and Banner came into this thing together and that was already determined even before Haslam bought the team. He and Banner were working together from the start.
Haslam didn't "Go out and get Banner" after he bought the team. Haslam felt Banner was the right guy from the beginning. Yet again, an owner who says he "has a lot to learn", decided to put faith in someone to do a lot of things that he has no experience at.
So yeah, there are HUGE reasons for major concern here.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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No Pit, I was thinking Chip Kelly.
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The following article further confirms my belief that Banner had more power in personnel in Philly than most accepted. Take note of the first several sentences.
Then take note of the tone of yet another jacked-up POS Philly fan. Philly fans are clowns of the worst variety and this guys "professionalism" is laughable. Hey, if Banner was so bad, then why didn't the Eagles kick butt over the last two seasons where Reid got his wishes? That TO signing really put them over the top. I guess I missed them hoisting the Lombardi Trophy. web page Joe Banner and Browns in lead for Chip Kelly... I remember how upset former Eagles head coach Ray Rhodes was when he found out that team President Joe Banner had more power than anybody in the Eagles organization. He couldn’t believe that Banner was trying to tell him who he should select in the upcoming draft. Former Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb talked about Banner’s power in the organization on Comcast Sportsnet earlier this week. The QB revealed that Banner called most of the shots. He had his hand in everything and Reid tolerated it and won inspite of Banner rather than because of him. Andy Reid had his faults and still does, but it was Banner who probably cost the Eagles a couple of Super Bowl titles because he refused to supply them with some quality wide receivers during the early 2000′s when the door was open for the Birds to win the Super Bowl. The Birds lost a couple of NFC Championship games because they didn’t have enough offensive firepower. Banner finally relented on the fact that the Eagles needed some quality wide receivers, when he agreed to sign Terrell Owens. Reid was as team player with Banner and did as much as he could without wide receivers during those early years. ESPN is reporting that Banner and the Cleveland Browns are very close to signing Kelly to a five-year deal. I think this would be the best thing for the Eagles. I don’t want to see the Eagles to sign Kelly. Let Banner and the Browns have him. I hope the Lurie and the Eagles have baited Banner into signing Kelly. Perhaps Lurie knew the vindictive nature of his life-long friend Banner and anticipated that Banner would take this coach-search personal and therefore try to beat the Eagles in the pursuit of a new coach. Banner went to Arizona and was waiting to meet with Kelly on Friday after Thursday’s night Fiesta Bowl. The Birds are scheduled to interview Denver Broncos offensive coordinator Mike McCoy on Sunday. McCoy won’t be available for interview after this weekend. McCoy will have to shine in the interview. On Friday the Eagles asked for and got permission to interview offensive coordinator Bruce Arians of the Indianapolis Colts. They also got permission to interview Seattle Seahawks defensive coordinator Gus Bradley. Arians showed us this year that he could lead a team to the playoffs. He was interim head coach for the Colts while head coach Chuck Pagano battled leukemia, and they’re in the playoffs with a 11-5 record. Bradley has got that fire in his belly. His Seahawks defense plays with fire and passion, which the Eagles need. I think he’s worth keeping an eye on.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Here's something I feel bears some thought.....
Funny how it was "last week" that Colt was told he was "in the next coaches plans" don't you think?
If it wasn't already pretty much set in stone as to who the next HC was going to be as of last week, how could anyone have told Colt that?
Not only would it have already have had to be determind, but heavy talks as the the offense and which personnel we already have that fits into that offense would have had to have been discussed.
If that HC ends up being Kelly, wouldn't that mean that not only Kelly, but also this FO has been lying to everyone all along?
There's no way they could have told Colt that if a deal with the next HC wasn't already pre-determind last week.
I have to wonder if Colt was really hurt to the point that he couldn't play against the Steelers? Could it be that this FO and Kelly wanted to get a good look at That Lewis and how he would fit into Kelly's offense?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Behind the scenes, nothing would shock me.
I've heard lombardi was stalking FA's for the Browns since august.
Lewis may well fit his planned scheme. i wasnt disapointed in his play at all.
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Is it because Ried was so bad or was it that he was left with the mess Banner created?
If Banner had the power you claim, Reid had to work with the players left in place by Banner to a great degree.
That would be like you blaming our next HC's first two seasons being forced to work with the vast majority of talent that Heckert/Holmgren left in place here wouldn't it?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Jeremiah Trotter yesterday said although they liked Reid they blamed him for the the offensive woes and the big game losses. He said Reid was flat out out coached in big games also.
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Behind the scenes, nothing would shock me.
I've heard lombardi was stalking FA's for the Browns since august.
With the comments made to Colt, I think it's logical to conclude things were going on behind the scenes for some time now.
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Lewis may well fit his planned scheme. i wasnt disapointed in his play at all.
I saw him in pre-season against the Bears and really was impressed with his mobility and accuracy for the most part. He is exciting to watch.
And I think he would be a perfect fit for an O like Kelly runs. I could also see a guy like Alex Smith being a perfect fit if Haslam and company are looking to make a big splash and spend $$$ in the FA market.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Here's something I feel bears some thought.....
Funny how it was "last week" that Colt was told he was "in the next coaches plans" don't you think?
If it wasn't already pretty much set in stone as to who the next HC was going to be as of last week, how could anyone have told Colt that?
Not only would it have already have had to be determind, but heavy talks as the the offense and which personnel we already have that fits into that offense would have had to have been discussed.
If that HC ends up being Kelly, wouldn't that mean that not only Kelly, but also this FO has been lying to everyone all along?
There's no way they could have told Colt that if a deal with the next HC wasn't already pre-determind last week.
I have to wonder if Colt was really hurt to the point that he couldn't play against the Steelers? Could it be that this FO and Kelly wanted to get a good look at That Lewis and how he would fit into Kelly's offense?
I think it could mean that the Browns had their target in sight (and I still don't think it was ever Saban) and were going to do everything they could to get him and felt very confident that they'd be able to do so.
In other words, Chip Kelly was always Haslam's #1 target (and Banner agreed to it). As soon as Haslam took ownership of the Browns, Holmgren's fate was sealed and Heckert's and Shurmur's with him. I'm not certain that any of the assistant coaches will be retained, but that's probably going to be a choice between Chip Kelly and those assistants.
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Jeremiah Trotter yesterday said although they liked Reid they blamed him for the the offensive woes and the big game losses. He said Reid was flat out out coached in big games also.
I saw that myself but have to wonder if that's the reality or more a player who was disgruntled with Ried.
I mean he could be right, but if you look at Rieds overall success and all of the playoff appearances that Philly had under Ried, the evidence would point to Ried being a pretty good coach.
While I don't totally rule out his comments, I feel the evidence of Rieds overall success makes me lean towards Trotter overstating his opinion.
Every coach gets outcoached on occasion, but with Rieds overall record, I can't really see that it happened on any kind of a regular basis as Trotter seemed to indicate.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Reports last night said he wouldnt be bringing anyone along. Or few if any. All are under contract I guess.
I'd consider retaining Jauron or as Ytown wants the Bears DC. Either works.
Some consistency might be nice.
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I've heard Lombardi was stalking FA's for the Browns since August.
That could be. I don't know but if it's true, I think that it's going to be to get some guards that fit into that system. Andy Levitre is probably the Browns #1 target in free agency and WRs with good to great down-field blocking skills.
Just my guesses.
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I have no doubt that Oregon's coaches are under contract and probably wouldn't necessarily make the move with Kelly. The Browns asst. coaches are probably under contract for the most part and they'll probably wait to see if Kelly is the next coach and they'll likely speak to him before making any decisions on whether to stay or not and they'll probably let Kelly make that decision. That is, they'll agree to stay on unless Kelly decides that he wants to bring in someone else.
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I think it could mean that the Browns had their target in sight (and I still don't think it was ever Saban) and were going to do everything they could to get him and felt very confident that they'd be able to do so.
I see your point but simply disagree. You can't tell a player in any factual way that "You are in the next coaches plan", unless you know who that coach is and having had that coach tell you he is in his plans.
Had it been phrased somewhat differently I could see your possibility. But when it was made as a direct statement, there has to be some assurance of the facts to base such a statement on IMO
I mean how could any of them know that Colt was in "The next coaches plans" unless the next coach told them that?
Don't you find it hard to imagine that somehow they just "knew what players Kelly wanted to keep" unless Kelly told them that? Do you thin k they had a crystal ball that told them what players Kelly wanted to keep and didn't want to keep?
I'm not trying to poke fun at you here. Just saying if you think about it, there's no way for them to know that Kelly was for sure going to keep Colt without Kelly having said so.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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But if this has been in the works for months as we seem to think, they may know who stays or goes from our current staff. There's been no announcments of guys leaving but no new staffs have been put together yet either.
Our guys are under contract but were told they could talk to anyone if they wished.
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LOL! Lombardi talking on NFL network on the best fit for Kelly!
Lombardi is denying ANY contact with Browns.
Kelly would do well wherever he goes.
He played that close to the vest and I SURE hope he's had no contact.
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