|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,197
Legend
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,197 |
Heckert I hope remains the GM.
He may be gone due to the fact that when he took the job here that he wanted final say on the 53 man roster.
Banner has stated that he sees the head coach as having that responsibility.
Banner feels that there are common traits among head coaches that make them successful.
Shurmur may or may not possess them. That depends on the perspective of Banner.
Ken Whisenhunt is rumored to be on the chopping block. He could be a possible solution. The current head coach of the Cardinals, lead them to the first Super Bowl in franchise history during the 2008 season. Previously, he was known for his well engineered offensive plays, including the success he had with the Pittsburgh Steelers in his 3 years as their offensive coordinator under Bill Cowher and winning Super Bowl XL during the 2005 season.
Personally I do not see Brandon Weeden as the solution at QB.
San Fransisco may have to make a decision on whether Alex Smith remains. If they have decided that Colin Kaepernick is their guy.
Smith inked a 3-year $24 million dollar contract in March of this season. Smith is scheduled to earn $7.5 million in salary next season along with a $1 million dollar roster bonus owned to him in March 2013. Conversely, Kaepernick will play for a paltry $740,000 next season. If Kaepernick remains the starter this season and continues a high level of play, Smith’s future with the Niners will remain in doubt.
It’s highly doubtful that the Niners would pay Smith $8.5 million in order to ride the bench next season so the team has two options; release him or trade him. The team will likely exercise the $1 million dollar roster bonus but would then try to find a trade partner in order to move Smith.
Alex Smith is younger than Weeden at 28. He has way more experience. He has good numbers. He is a better option than Weeden.
I believe Ken Whisenhunt and Alex Smith are upgrades to what we have. They also may be the options that we can get.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,101
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,101 |
think it's way to early to call Alex Smith an upgrade over Weeden. Smith has looked pretty good with a very talented roster.But what did he look like in years past when San Fransisco did not have the talent they now possess? Also if Smith is a franchise QB,not saying Weeden is either, why where they so quick to start looking around at other options last year and quick to switch to Kaepernick right in the middle of a playoff run? It just seems like the niners do not have alot of confidence in Smith for the long haul.
I really think Weeden deserves more than 3/4 of a rookie season.
I 100% agree about Heckert.I do not know enough about Whisenhunt or the Cardinals.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745 |
Theres really nothing that Weeden possesses that makes me go "wow"
he does nothing above average.
he needs to show something that says "franchise" qb.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,101
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,101 |
Like I said.I'm not saying Weeden is a franchise QB but if he is not then we need to find one and I don't think Alex Smith is a franchise qb either.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,197
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,197 |
According to NFL Network: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000...-coach-openingsWhisenhunt is a possible coaching cut. No doubt in my mind that Alex Smith is a better option at QB. Just research his history. Look at what he has gone through and where he is now.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
If Whisenhunt is fired he would be near the top of my list of my head coaches. He might also intrigue Haslam because he (Whisenhunt) was with the Steelers when Haslam was part owner.
I don't know if Alex Smith can be good without the Jim Harbaugh cocoon. Harbaugh directly affected how Smith played, so it's hard to see him being successful somewhere else.
If it is determined that Weeden isn't the answer I expect we will try and trade/sign someone as it is not a stellar QB class in the draft.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Look at who Whisenhunt has been parading out as his QB. No thanks. The Cardinals have declined since he go there. Remember when they went to the Super Bowl? Whisenhunt was there, but he was on the other sideline. Sure, their defense has improved, but if you have a QB situation as broken as theirs, you don't have a good team (as we know too well.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Quote:
Look at who Whisenhunt has been parading out as his QB.
Is that his fault or the fault of the GM? That is something that will need to be investigated before anyone hires him. If it was his fault, he's not an option. GN's fault, still an option.
Quote:
The Cardinals have declined since he go there. Remember when they went to the Super Bowl? Whisenhunt was there, but he was on the other sideline.
Wrong. Whisenhunt was the Cardinals head coach (Link). The Cardinals, why still terrible at times, have never had a better head coach then Whisenhunt.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Somebody look up Alex Smith's rookie and 2nd season numbers....NOW ! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Wisenhunt's Cardinals have pretty much declined steadily since their NFC Champion and Championship contending seasons in '08 & '09. They're heading in the wrong direction and their QB situation is a mess. No thank you.
Alex Smith is a game manager, not necessarily a game winner. They win with a solid running game and a stellar D. Not saying he couldn't succeed here under similar circumstances, but he needs a particular type coach to be willing to run a scheme like that where he can be successful. We don't know what we have in Weeden yet, so I'm not convinced at this point that Alex Smith would be an upgrade. Like Weeden, (possibly, because we don't know yet), he could end up being a place holder until we actually find "the guy".
In both of these cases, I see neither as a "solution".
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,524
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,524 |
I'm with you. There's a whole lot of bologna being thrown around on this thread right now and that just has to end.
1. Whisenhunt was the HC of the Cards when they played the Steelers.
2. I highly doubt Whisenhunt is viable HC option for the Browns. I certainly wouldn't mind him at OC, but not HC.
3. Alex Smith is not as good as some are making him out to be. He won how many games and is being benched now? His resurgence was a result of the ball control, run first offense Harbaugh has employed. He certainly hasn't been the savior and there's really no viable explanation for him being better than Brandon Weeden who's been asked to throw upwards of 50 times per game on occasion.
4. Why are people coming to conclusions already on a rookie QB who has not played 16 games. Yes, he's 29, but HE'S A ROOKIE QB!!! I don't know if he'll be good, but I also know we're not going to win the Super Bowl, so why don't we just let a QB's situation play out for once for CRYING OUT LOUD!
That is all...
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Look at who Whisenhunt has been parading out as his QB. No thanks.
Whisenhunt has had his ups and downs but the Cards came on strong toward the end of last season and then Kevin Kolb was 4-2 before he got hurt this year with wins over Seattle and New England...
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Whoops! My bad. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556 |
Pure rant instead of a reply. Sorry Vadawg not to you other than first line.
I got a solution. We allow these guys the chance to finish what they started.
We have had garbage decision makers and garbage QBs. From that somehow Browns fans have come to expect perfection from everything related to the Browns. There is no perfect head coach out there. All coaches are going to make boneheaded decisions.
Shurmur was a new HC thrown into an impossible situation with a shotty OL, Colt McCoy at QB, Brian Robiskie was his #1 receiver and the defensive line had 1 player worth a spot. Then the no offseason his first year and ownership change in his second along with a rookie QB doesnt help matters either.
Only the ignorant will bring up Heckert missing on a 4th round pick as a reason to replace him. We wasted a decade of picks and now I get to read how Heckert sucks because he took a 4th round FB and 4th round TE project and they havent worked out. Get over it. We have a young exciting roster and I am thrilled to see these kids develop before our eyes.
Weeden has played like crap of late but lets be honest. He was from the spread, he never took a snap under center. He never played anyone with a real defense in college and now he is supposed to learn the WCO and go head to head with the AFC North. BTW his #1 and #2 are learning how to be a receiver. He has hit the rookie wall, lets see how he responds over these next few weeks. It happens to 99% of all rookies, it is nothing new. He may never bee Farve but he can be better than Flacco.
Most that are complaining so hard now are the same ones that was yelling fatso Phil the wasted pick. Haden sucks. DQ is overrated.
Our record sucks, we knew it was going to sucks before the first snap but you know what, this has been a fun year of football. These kids are improving every week. Our porous OL is now considered top 5 by everyone. I wasnt all that impressed with the bombs to Gordon earlier in the season but what he did last week blew me away. Greg Little is becoming a very consistent weapon. Our DL just punked the Cowboys and Steelers.
I see a team that I believe will be a playoff contender next year and hopefully a superbowl contender within 3 years. I know many fans desire blood sacrifice for the dozen years of misery but now is not the time for it. I see something special with this group and man tearing it out by the roots is not the answer. The league is starting to notice the browns for a reason.
Last edited by Mourgrym; 11/29/12 01:46 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Mourg, are you a proponent of retaining Shurmur?
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
According to NFL Network:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000...-coach-openings
Whisenhunt is a possible coaching cut.
No doubt in my mind that Alex Smith is a better option at QB.
Just research his history. Look at what he has gone through and where he is now.
I think it's terribly unfair of anyone to judge a 7 year QB with a 1st year QB.
I'm saying that, but like so many on here, I'm not 100% sold on Weeden either.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,197
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,197 |
This not about what is the ideal solution.
If it is decided by Haslam and Banner that Shumur is not their guy. Then what our the options?
NFL headcoach retreads? Guys who have been fired. Guys who have retired. NFL OC and DC ? Guys who have never been a Head Coach like Pat Shurmur was. Meaning they have to learn what it like to be a Head Coach. Then there are the college coaches. A guy like Chip Kelley who never has been in the NFL? Please spare me.
If Whisenhunt is available. Then to me he is a viable candidate.
I have no doubt in my mind that Alex Smith is an upgrade over Brandon Weeden.
The question is how much would he cost?
SF of course would leverage the best offer they can get. His value would be market driven. Mid first round pick to high second round would be my guess.
What I am saying is that Ken Whisenhunt and Alex Smith are upgrades over Pat Shurmur and Brandon Weeden.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
You know that Jim Harbaugh doesn't come along with Alex Smith, right? Without Harbaugh Smith is a league average QB or worse. (Some, maybe including Harbaugh, would say he was an average QB with Harbaugh.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
So instead of a former HC.
You want Wisenhunt.
Who would of just been fired.
Making him a former HC.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556 |
Noone would have done any better and these rookies, we just have to figure out how to win as a team. Injuries combined with inexperience killed us. These guys are developing and also getting healthy. He has one year left, finish his contract and see from there.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Quote:
Noone would have done any better and these rookies
You don't actually believe that, do you?
Quote:
Injuries combined with inexperience killed us.
And the head coaches poor decision making.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
What other team do you watch with such intensity and enthusiasm?
What opportunities have you taken to experience each and every HC decision as you have Shurmur and the Browns? Are there very many coaches that could stand up to the kind of microscopic scrutiny we put Shurmur's decisions under?
Is he really that bad or are we just more aware?
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556 |
I have never seen a HC take over a team that bad and dump 90% of the roster, load them up with first and 2nd year players and compete to the bitter end with everyone they face. Usually an overhaul like that equates total disaster and the team quitting. These kids play hard and we are a few rookie mistakes away from being playoff contenders this year.
I think everyone should be excited about this team instead of wanting another blow up. Makes no sense to me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
No one really wants a "blow up"
Most want the Defensive staff to remain in tact.
And are just arguing that Shurmur is not a good HC. And has shown little to no proof of ever become one...
Am I "Ok" with the idea of another year of Pat? Sure I guess.
But it's going to be a hard sell for them to get rid of Heckert and keep anyone else.
But I think barring a massive comeback (7-9) Pats been gone since he punted in Indy.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
I have no doubt in my mind that Alex Smith is an upgrade over Brandon Weeden.
The question is how much would he cost?
You'll have to pardon me then for disagree with whether or not that is the most important question.
Alex Smith struggled all the way up until he had one of the best running games and one of the best defenses in the NFL... and now a 2nd year, 2nd round draft pick out of Nevada who had thrown 5 NFL passes waltzes in and unseats him as the starter because he had 1 good week... That doesn't say much for Alex Smith's value... especially at $7million a year or whatever it was that I heard he was due next year.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,197
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,197 |
Look I get it. He would be a recent fired head coach. Just like Mangini. Just like Gruden was fired before his Monday Night gig.
He just appears to me as the best option.
He was considered a good OC at Pittsburgh when they won a Super Bowl. He went to a Super Bowl at Arizona. He has been a Head Coach.
Nobody who is currently doing really well is going to leave where they are.
Again, this about best option available.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556 |
I dont like some of his decisions but everyone is going to make some dumb decisions. I just feel we need to see him finish the year and if the team continues to play hard and adds a few more victories then you allow him to finish his contract. I just see to much in place right now from Jauron to Rhodes to the linebackers coach, the development and improvement of Little and Gordon. This staff is doing a whole lot of good.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,197
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,197 |
The "Possible Solution" I put forth is because most of the speculation is that Shurmur will not survive.
I think a case can be made to keep the current organization "as is" in place.
However, if the decision is made that Shurmur is let go then the "Solution" I put forth may well be the best option available.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
The punt in Indy deeply annoyed me. I wanted his head for that.
The consistent refusal to attempt to score before the end of the half.
The predictable clock killing when we have a lead.
He is coaching for ball control instead of scoring.
Maybe Shurmur will be less conservative when he begins to trust his playmakers.
In terms of NFL success and entertainment value I believe aggression is highly rewarded.
I can not yet figure out if Shurmur is acting on a conservative philosophy or if he doesn't trust his offense to maintain possession. From what I understand he continues to defend his call in Indy. That tells me that in spite of having this team playing this well, he still needs to go.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
You make it sound like if Shumur's gone, WE BETTER hire Wisenhunt or else...what?
There are A LOT of young Offensive minded coaches out there.
Wisenhunt may be better off (assuming he's let go) getting another OC job for a few years, so that he can have a better perspective on his next HC job.
21 of the current NFL HCs have never had an NFL HCing job before.
We've done the "Hire a guy that just got fired" thing. Didn't work. Hell we've done everything (Former HC, College Coach, OC, DC) So I guess it doesn't matter right?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
From what I understand he continues to defend his call in Indy. That tells me that in spite of having this team playing this well, he still needs to go.
He's defending it because he's too proud to admit he was wrong publicly, which I don't really care about.. but his actions in weeks since then have proven that he knew it was wrong.
Quote:
I can not yet figure out if Shurmur is acting on a conservative philosophy or if he doesn't trust his offense to maintain possession.
I get the feeling that Shurmur is coaching just to have a chance to win in the final couple minutes... Having a chance to win in the final couple minutes isn't that bad but our playmakers have not shown the ability to make the plays they need to in order to close out games in the final couple minutes, that's the problem. So if we have to risk making a mistake to put some distance between us and the other team, then that's what we have to do.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Quote:
Quote:
From what I understand he continues to defend his call in Indy. That tells me that in spite of having this team playing this well, he still needs to go.
He's defending it because he's too proud to admit he was wrong publicly, which I don't really care about.. but his actions in weeks since then have proven that he knew it was wrong.
I disagree.
You say he's "To proud to admit" he was wrong, I say he doesn't THINK it was wrong, it just didn't work out...
And going for it on 4th against Baltimore just stinks of "So you want me to go for it on 4th downs? FINE."
Quote:
Quote:
I can not yet figure out if Shurmur is acting on a conservative philosophy or if he doesn't trust his offense to maintain possession.
I get the feeling that Shurmur is coaching just to have a chance to win in the final couple minutes... Having a chance to win in the final couple minutes isn't that bad but our playmakers have not shown the ability to make the plays they need to in order to close out games in the final couple minutes, that's the problem. So if we have to risk making a mistake to put some distance between us and the other team, then that's what we have to do.
Shurmur? Take a RISK? Never.
The guy gets a 13 point lead and goes into autopilot...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Quote:
The consistent refusal to attempt to score before the end of the half.
The predictable clock killing when we have a lead.
Why do we call timeouts at the end of the half to force them to punt, then run out the clock?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Quote:
Quote:
The consistent refusal to attempt to score before the end of the half.
The predictable clock killing when we have a lead.
Why do we call timeouts at the end of the half to force them to punt, then run out the clock?
So our TOP looks better at the end of the game..?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,532
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,532 |
Sabin.......give him full control for all I care. The guy has built a great program at Bama. And would love to see him do it here.
Id rather keep un-Shurmer than bring in someone who just got canned for failing elsewhere.
Give me Sabin, or just keep Pat. Those are my thoughts on HC.
Jauron deserves to stay, he took that group of misfit toys and turned them into a very solid D!
This team is alot closer than we realize, a legit CB, FB and RG and we are winning ALOT more games.
#brownsgoodkarma
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,524
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,524 |
Do you remember the Saban from Miami???
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
Quote:
Do you remember the Saban from Miami???
The one that begged for Drew Brees but was told no?
Yeah, I remember that guy.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Quote:
The consistent refusal to attempt to score before the end of the half.
The predictable clock killing when we have a lead.
Why do we call timeouts at the end of the half to force them to punt, then run out the clock?
LOL.. I don't know... then we throw from our own 20 with a minute and a half left to go in the half and we throw a 3 yard pass to a guy who is running out of bounds. If you aren't going to try to go down and score, don't throw it at all. It is kind of like he doesn't just want to kneel on it and give up in that situation, but he doesn't really want to risk making a mistake enough to try to go score either...
My thoughts, run the 2 minute drill with Weeden every single chance you get, the practice is only going to help him for that day when it does actually matter.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
Quote:
I have never seen a HC take over a team that bad and dump 90% of the roster, load them up with first and 2nd year players and compete to the bitter end with everyone they face. Usually an overhaul like that equates total disaster and the team quitting. These kids play hard and we are a few rookie mistakes away from being playoff contenders this year.
I think everyone should be excited about this team instead of wanting another blow up. Makes no sense to me.
For me, you're preaching to the choir.
For most, I think that this will fall on deaf ears 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Possible Solution
|
|
