DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Shaffer's numbers compared to ProBowl tackles

Been doing alot of thinking about the Brown's upcoming draft and decided to do a little research on our left tackle Kevin Shaffer. There are alot of people on here that feel that Joe Thomas is the only player we should draft at the 3 spot. Some claim that Shaffer is little more than a speed bump on the left side. I went to http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/STATS/NFL_LiveScores.htm?link=players to compare Shaffer to the players that are considered the best tackles in the NFL- last years ProBowl selections. I only took last years statistics (basically because I didn't want to spend 2 hours recreating the info), but I did print out the stats and compared them on my own. I know that Shaffer is not as dominant as one would hope, but he is going against the best talent in the world and statistically speaking he is holding his own. He did get a couple of more holding penalties than the average, but holding could be called on every play if the refs wanted to. The part that stood out to me was the fact that he only gave up 3.5 sacks in 16 games. Not exactly the swinging gate that some on here portray him as.

Kevin Shaffer
Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks All Yds
Cle 16 16 7 60 2 5 3.5 23.5

Tarik Glenn
Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks All Yds
Ind 16 16 10 65 7 3 3.0 22.0

Marcus McNeill
Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks All Yds
SD 16 16 5 25 5 0 5.0 29.0

Matt Light
Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks All Yds
NE 16 16 7 50 5 1 7.5 60.5

Jonathan Ogden
Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks All Yds
Bal 14 14 3 25 1 0 3.5 25.0

Willie Anderson
Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks All Yds
Cin 16 16 4 25 3 1 3.0 15.0

Walter Jones
Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks All Yds
Sea 16 16 4 30 2 2 10.5 78.0

Chris Samuels
Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks All Yds
Was 16 16 5 30 3 1 4.0 33.0

Flozell Adams
Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks All Yds
Dal 16 16 6 35 5 1 4.0 33.0

Jamaal Brown
Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks All Yds
NO 15 15 6 45 2 3 3.0 25.0


These are only the stats from the 2006 season. You can look at the stats from their careers also and see that statistically Shaffer holds his own year in and year out.
By looking at statistics alone I don't see how Thomas will improve the position all that much. Maybe he is a better run blocker than Shaffer (I don't know that), but pass blocking Shaffer ranks with the best.

Sorry- I took the time to space all of the statistics out in each column for easier reading, but this damn site always crunches them back up.

Honestly, those sack stats are meaningless.....

I can see by your sig who you want the Brown's to draft, but why are they so meaningless? They don't suit your draft preference?
I was just comparing the stats to see if this position is truely the major waekness that needs to be addressed with the no. 3 pick. A lot of money to hand out for a position that on paper appears to have a more than serviceable player already manning it.
Can you say the same about our QB position?

you can use the [ code ] [ /code ] tags to preserve spacing.



In those stats, do you also have stats for hits, knockdowns and pressures given up?

Also, given the insane number of sacks we gave up, it's really hard to believe that he only gave up 3.5 sacks

I find it hard to believe that Walter Jones gave up 10 sacks.

He's not bad at all. Actually above average to be truthfull. Some people on here believe that the only way we can be successful is if we have to have a pro bowler at each of the 5 offensive line spots, when in actuality all they are really doing is trying to make exuses for chucks inabilities. Schaeffers fine, people just make him out to be worse than he actually is.

How many times have you heard, "Im not going to make a judgement on him until we put a decent offensive line in front of him, until then its not fair to make a judgement."

I agree with this to a small extent but a some point you can just look at a guy and say hey this guy either has it or doesn't. Chuck doesn't have it, Timid didn't have it and it doesn't take a great offensive line in front of them to come to the conclusion. Sorry gentlemen, but at some point were going to have find a quarterback. Not saying I don't like Joe Thomas or anything, i'll be happy if we draft him but unlike some people i won't pissed if we draft a QB at 3 or CJ honestly. Anyway we look at it were going to be a better team no matter which of those guys we draft.

I dont think Shaffer was the problem, The problem was the guards next top him. Andruzzi was plain aawful and Coleman wasnt very good either. With Steinbach next to him will only make him better. I think people still havent gotten over the holding call on the first play of the season.

Tell that to Phil Savage, who called Schaffer (the LT he signed) "adequate" and might be better suited for the Right side.

Interesting, alhtough I don't know how important those stats are. You'll find other posters who don't have very good things to say about Shaff.

I agree the guards were the worst problem on our line last year (and the year before that and the year before that), but I'm still sticking with JT as my first priority. If he's the slam dunk LT most people say he is, how can you not take him?

Although I wouldn't be all that upset if we took Quinn, or Peterson, either.

Bingo!

I wonder where Andruzzi scored as a LG compared to the guys who worked beside the Pro Bowl tackles.

BTW...I still want JT over anyone else...other than a trade down of course.

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I agree the guards were the worst problem on our line last year (and the year before that and the year before that)

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Yes, defenses attack the weakest area of your line, and so teams attacked our interior. So in that, Schaffer may have gotten a bit of a reprieve.

If we have indeed upgraded and made the interior stronger with Steinbach, Hank in his second season, and McKinney, then teams will continue to look for the weakest spot in the line. That could now be left/right tackle and Schaffer will find himself as the one being attacked more often than he has been up to now.

Why attack the left, or even the right tackle, when Druzzi and Coleman have been there for the taking? Now, defenses are going to look elsewhere besides the interior for a weak link in our line.

Take this stats and a bowl of dog turds and you get..................a bowl of dog turds. Stats don't measure the important stuff.............pressures, hits, and knockdowns.................they also can't measure whether the player is getting push at all in the running ame. This is what measures a OL's performance..........and the reason why KS couldn't hold the jock of any of the people you mentioned.

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...and the reason why KS couldn't hold the jock of any of the people you mentioned.

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And that's where you are wrong my friend.



I'm sure one of them would let him hold their jock if he asked nicely.

Lol............I read that first sentence dub, and thought that this is going to be the only time I remember you making a dumb post...lol.........glad I got the joke in the 2nd one.

Oh...........I'm sure if he twisted an arm or two he could even persuade them to let them put it on his head...lol. In all seriousness, I don't think KS is horrible, he just isn't a LT, and needs to be moved to the right side. I think Kevin could probably be slightly above avg. at RT, but he just doesn't have the feet to be protecting anybody's backdoor.

I agree. I think if he were on the right, Joe Thomas were on the left, all we'd need would be a LeCharles Bentley-type center and a gruesome, young RG and we'd have an offensive line as fearsome as any.

We would then have serviceable recievers, running backs and quarterbacks.

Those stats are mostly meaningless. We also had no running game, so that means we need new running backs. Our QBs didn't have time to set up, so I guess we need new QBs. Maybe you should go back and rewatch some of last years games. Our O-line was horrible and picking up Steinbach in FA didn't fix it.

That's what I thought when I read his reply.

I looked for that info, but couldn't find it anywhere. Stats.com would probably have it but you have to be a subscriber and they cater to professional teams and the media outlets.
People can take it for what its worth. Stats are a way to compare players without intimate knowledge of each and every player.
If the stats supported their argument then they would be the gospel, but since they don't then they aren't worth anyhting. Funny how that happens.

I like the idea of solidifying the line, but I'm just not sold that Thomas will make as much impact as people like to say. Our Quarterback situation is much worse. I don't know if I can name one team where Frye could be traded to and be appointed the starter. i know that there are other teams with quarterback issues, but would Frye truly be the answer on these teams.
We already have a ton of money invested in the line and Thomas at 3 would just take that to another level. Probably the highest in the league. Don't see it happening.

I watched the Texans-Browns game last night and definately saw a swinging gate.

Take all the stats away and just listen to what Savage had to say about him (or implied about him) at the end of the season.

That's all I need to know. When the General Manager and guy responsible for evaluating the talent on your team does not provide a ringing endorsement, I think that says it all.

However, I'm sure there will be talk leading up to the draft about how much Steinbach will help him, and I'm sure that's being taken into consideration as well.

It would not surprise me at all if Shaffer were our starting LT next year.

uhhmmmm...........no actually they aren't individually kept up with by player. So no they aren't measured............just the useless stuff that you guys are spewing here. I have an idea for you guys though.............watch the freakin' game. Look at KS get owned in pass protection because he has led feet and can't get around quick enough............look how slow he is getting set in his stance. While your at it, look at how he got very little push in run blocking situations. KS doesn't have the skill set to protect someone's backside..........his feet are to slow, and he doesn't set up nearly quick enough to make up for it. He can be a Tucker type player for us at RT though if he works hard like Tuck did to overcome those deficiencies. I'm not one of those yelling for JT over BQ ( I would puke if we got Russell however), because imo they are both players/positions that would fill HUGE needs on this team. However, you guys that don't want JT need to come up with something better than "KS measures up to the top LTs " crap, becuase it isn't true, and you lose credibility in your argument by saying so.

And that my friends is why a good buddy of mine loves to tell you guys.................STATS ARE FOR LOSERS!!!!

IMO Shaffer was a 3 or 4 on a scale of 10 last year, and he can max out as an average LT. However if we can get Thomas (IF we can't trade down) It will only make the line that much better. Plus he would give us depth at LT, and comp. at RT, because outside of Tucker everybody else on the roster, ..... ummmmm if I can't say anything nice. Maybe I shouldn't say anything at all

Well Road, if stats were the whole story, then I guess we should NOT draft Thomas because our LT is doing just fine

With me it's never been about Shaffer being horrible, it's been about making the LT position a strength,, I mean a real Strength.. By drafting Thomas, we get to move shaffer to RT and unless I miss my guess, he'll be incredible over there..

Now, team Thomas up with Stienbach and Fraley in the middle and you have only one weak spot left,,, RG.

Now you have some choices of people to start there,,

Tucker, Sowells, Andruzzi (if he's still around) and perhaps a young guy we can get in the draft....

Now you got a line man,, One that with the exception of Tucker and Andruzzi, is young enough to grow together and develop that chemistry that everyone always talks about.

So, it's not so much about Shaffer, it's about total line improvement..

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why dont we make the running game a real Strength??!!

PETERSON!! there is no need to draft a LT with the number 3 pick... Shaeffer is fine..

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You have your opinion, I have mine.. they are not the same,,,

Film at 11

I haven't even read the replies yet.....I suppose we will see stuff like they don't believe it.......how many hurries did he give up....stufff like that.

Good educated guess there.
I admit that the stats don't tell the whole story, but it is how people compare players, teams, stocks, credit, etc....
They do have some meaning to them.
I also understand thae thought of Drafting Thomas for the left tackle position, moving Sheffer to right tackle, and moving Tucker inside.
I've thought it all through. Not really sold on Thomas. Don't know a whole lot about him, but leary of the can't miss lineman at the payscale of the 3rd spot in the draft. Last player was Gallery and he seems to be a bust.

You gave "skeleton" stats. Raw and few.


Not only doesn't it tell you the many variables that have already been mentioned,they also don't tell you how many times Shaffer had the help of other players to "accomplish his mission".


You want to see how good Shaffer really is? Watch some game tapes against good defenses. Then get back to me. The eyes don't lie.

Shaffer is a stiff.

I know for a fact that he asked for help on almost every play. People like saying Andruzzi negatively impacted Shaffer, but it was actually the other way around. And I'm not defending Joe, because he was awful too.

There was one player who said that Shaffer was stealing money. That's a player saying it, not some fan.

Shaffer was disrespected by most of his teammates. He is not a technician at all. He compromised the entire line. He had a big salary and didn't put in the time to improve himself.

Here is how I see him.

He is slow out of the stance and doesn't really have a good knee bend. His lateral movement to the left is very poor. He relies on his hands way too much and often reaches for defenders instead of moving his feet and sealing the defender off. He plays too upright and doesn't get his chest over his thighs as well as he should. He has pretty good strength, but his poor technique compromises his strength. He needs to be moved from the LT spot and it would be best if we actually part ways w/the guy.

Now..........go ahead and ignore my points and launch another personal attack.

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Now..........go ahead and ignore my points and launch another personal attack.

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Your father was a hamster and your mother smells of elderberries.

Is that stuff said about Shaffer from a Browns player? Is it inside info or was it in the media?

I thought his poor play had something to do with an injury. People can still play well even if they have poor technique. When you don't put out any effort that's a different. I can see a switch to the right side being a good move for him only if he is willing to work.

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Someone has a solid source.

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I thought the same thing about you when you made several statements during the year.

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Aside from all the on the field trouble, this OL unit sorely missed a leader in the lockeroom.

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Most of the guys have looked to Tucker as a leader. However, the circumstances this year made that a little rough. I do think Tuck can come back, although I haven't really heard much lately.

Mav.....here's the thing about Thomas. The guy is a great leader. He's one of the few OL anywhere who can command attention. And I'm not talking about the selfish BS like some WRs pull, I'm talking about a guy who can rally the troops. He wouldn't be a leader as a rook, but he will grow into that role quickly, especially on this team.

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Is that stuff said about Shaffer from a Browns player? Is it inside info or was it in the media?

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Two sources....both w/the Browns. It was NOT in the media. Just like the stuff w/Bentley wasn't in the media for the longest time and just like the stuff w/the firing of coaches, including Lott, was not in the media for the longest time.

Oh......and just like a lot of stuff about Leon is still not in the media.

NRTU...I had to stop for a minute to PUKE...

Has anyone that shoots off about this most expensive line in the NFL ever even given this a thought???

If Joe Thomas goes to LT and Shaffer to RT...Tucker ain't gonna be here with his 3.55M Cap Hit...I seriously doubt we ask him to move inside...McKinney would be the RG this year and Tucker history...

And about this Shaffer had to HELP Andruzzi...Looking at Walter Jones with and without Hutchinson next to him could lead one to believe that's HUGE...But take a look at Shaffer and Steinbach...WTF good is it when u go from a LT needing to help a weak ass LG...To a Strong LG now needing to help his LT???...

THINK ABOUT THAT...Jones and Hutchinson could possibly have been the NFL's best LT/LG EVER...And guess what...Seattle was WILLING to pay the piper to keep it that way until Minny stuck there ugly ass in the mix...

We haven't strengthened Left Guard anywhere near what ya'll think...

Enter Joe Thomas and we've SEVERELY strengthened that combo...

Your BEST lines have a LT that can stand on the Island ALONE...THAT makes your Interior that much stronger...We field a Thomas/Steinbach/Bentley left side and it may just be the BEST the NFL has seen in 20 years...

If we leave Joe Thomas on the board I'm gonna REGURGITATE...And it isn't even being talked about if Thomas wasn't in this draft and Levi Brown was the top tackle...He ain't anywhere near the talent of JT...So u guys blowin' off the steam of OL or nuttin' for us nuts...YOU'RE NUTS...