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You are free to believe whatever you'd like. And I'm free to believe it's naive to believe these things wouldn't happen with tougher gun control. Guns exist. They always will, whether it's legal to own them or not. Do you think a guy who is going to shoot up a school is going to be like, "Man, I wish I could get a gun legally. I'll shoot up a school and kills dozens of children, but buying illegal firearms is a line I will not cross!" 
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As long as some believe that guns are the only path available for those with mental illness to take to inflict pain and suffering on people, well, then guns will indeed look like the villain.
Imagine if he had gone into that school with a machete instead. How many little children do you think would have successfully evaded his wrath? It would almost certainly have wound up with the same body count, and quite possibly an even higher total of dead and wounded teachers and children, because there would have been no gunshots to warn other adults in the building.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again ...... once someone puts it in their head that they are going to commit a senseless act of violence, the weapon becomes unimportant. Think that the guy in the Batman movie theater couldn't have used Molotov Cocktails in his attack on innocents, and that he couldn;t have caused just as much more, or even considerably more damage and death?
Think that this kid couldn't have killed more children and teachers if he had been forced to use nail bombs, or other rather simple explosives, or even "just" a pair of machetes?
Insanity is hard to fight when you are unarmed .... because insanity is always a weapon to start with, and insanity also always looks to do the most "vibrant" damage. They want to make a hug impact. Take away a gun, and another, maybe even more heinous weapon, will appear.
The weapon never lights its own fuse, swings its own blade, or pulls its own trigger ..... and we are naive if we think that insane attacks will be stopped simply be removing a single type of weapon from the board.
I can no longer accept the premise that an alternative to a gun is a plausible defense. You have to go back to McVey for the last instance when it was not a gun.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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That's because guns are easy.
But that doesn't mean you should take them away. These people are just going to use the next easiest weapon to get.
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Legend
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Not all the was back to McVeigh... December 1st should be fine... Quote:
Posted: Sat 8:49 PM, Dec 01, 2012
Wyoming Man Kills Father in Bow-and-Arrow Attack
CASPER, Wyo. - - Authorities say a man involved in an attack at a community college and at another location in central Wyoming that left three people dead, including himself, used a bow-and-arrow in one of the slayings and was the son of one of the victims.
Casper Police Chief Chris Walsh said Saturday that 25-year-old Christopher Krumm, of Vernon, Conn., first stabbed 42-year-old Heidi Arnold about two miles southwest of Casper College on Friday morning.
Krumm then went to the college and shot his father, 56-year-old computer science instructor James Krumm, in the head with the bow-and-arrow in front of a group of students before stabbing himself with a large knife.
Walsh says the younger Krumm smuggled the weapon into the classroom under a blanket.
http://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines/Wyoming-Man-Kills-Father-with-Bow-and-Arrow-181705091.html
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”The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.” -Wayne LaPierre
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You really need to read your story before posting it.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Maybe you need to read it...
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
I can no longer accept the premise that an alternative to a gun is a plausible defense. You have to go back to McVey for the last instance when it was not a gun.
How about we just go back to yesterday?
web page
Perhaps you can enlighten us all and tell us what gun control laws would have prevented yesterdays shooting from happening?
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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It said the children, whose ages are not known, suffered non-life-threatening injuries.
There is a significant difference between between being dead and alive.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Why did you ignore my points about these people would buy guns illegally and/or move on to the next most accessible weapon?
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J/C...
Enough derailing the thread. Make another post about gun control and both sides can go nuts.
My thoughts and prayers will continue to go towards Newtown and the losses that it's families - especially those families - are dealing with.
"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college"
GO ROCKETS
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Quote:
Maybe you need to read it...
I did, if you really want to go down that rabbit hole, you have 3 people dead, one committed suicide. No that is not a random act of violence.
There are about 12,000 people killed with guns every year.
I doubt that the number for arrows and knives are within an order of magnitude.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Quote:
Why did you ignore my points about these people would buy guns illegally and/or move on to the next most accessible weapon?
No, I did not ignore it.
The simple fact is that if you want a gun, you can probably get it. Same with a car. Or drugs. But we don't need to set them out on the street corner either.
My view is that background checks, registration, periodic safety training and limitations on magazine sizes are pretty much in line with being a responsible gun owner.
I no longer think the next weapon argument is plausible. Guns are associated with the essentially all of these crimes.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Legend
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Neither side of the pro/anti gun control issue seems to make much sense to me lately.
The "they'll do it anyway" argument is wearing thin, I agree.
But I also don't think what we're dealing with is a gun problem - it's a social problem.
Guns and video games are easy answer excuses - we are a very mentally ill society, and often times the worse one is, the less likely they are to seek or receive help.
There's no easy answer.
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Legend
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Quote:
Neither side of the pro/anti gun control issue seems to make much sense to me lately.
The "they'll do it anyway" argument is wearing thin, I agree.
But I also don't think what we're dealing with is a gun problem - it's a social problem.
Guns and video games are easy answer excuses - we are a very mentally ill society, and often times the worse one is, the less likely they are to seek or receive help.
There's no easy answer.
Just a thought, but take Brady Quinn's words from last week. People talk to each other, face to face, less these days.
Columbine happened in '99, which seems to be the first major of these big number massacres, right around when the internet really got going, soon after would come cell phones being regular, and social media being a huge method of communication.
That could be a coincidence, but it's definitely interesting.
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I also find it funny that people are screaming for tougher gun control like this kid acquired the guns legally. Yes, these were legal firearms, but they were not acquired legally. They were STOLEN. Yep, this wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been allowed to buy a gun. Oh, wait, that makes no sense.
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j/c:
We have had a social problem for over 50 yrs. It is just now bearing friut, and by that I mean were a nation that has gone down the wrong path for years. IMO the lawyers started making excuses for the criminals. Now it's the criminals are victims and the victims are the criminals. In other words: Good is evil and Evil is good. This world is black & white. The lawyers started the "grey area". Example:
The reason he killed was because he had a bad childhood and was treated badly, does that excuse the action? Of course not, but it does put doubt in the juries and does give them a reason to rule on. Think about it, how would you vote on a jury: This guy went crazy and blew everybody away or Poor Johnny, was raised in a drug infested home, Mom drank to much and dad was a drug dealer. He was just lashing out to a society which failed him. So, as we see, all of the sudden, it's Society thats at fault here. He might still get life, but as you can see all thru the yrs. of the same excuses, it's finally not the person's fault anymore, it's always someone elses fault. Until we get back to the absolutes and start calling Evil Evil and Good Good, we are going down a very dark path.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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j/c:
We have had a social problem for over 50 yrs.
Centuries and centuries before that don't count, huh?
#gmstrong
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I was thinking more along the lines of taking the Bible out of schools and the Supreme Court ruling stating such. What do you expect when the people you look up to for leadership start chucking the rules out the window? I do think your right though, We've had a moral problem since day 1.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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Students can still pray in school.
Last edited by RocketOptimist; 12/15/12 08:28 PM.
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I have concluded that anytime an issue comes up to the ballot regarding funding for the detection, counseling and treatment of mental illnesses I will vote FOR the funding. It seems to me that the small increase in my taxes is well worth the lives of of these young children.
As a parent, I cannot fathom the anguish that these families are going thru. Yesterday was a good day for me since my daughter DancinDawg finally came home to me after spending a semester in Italy. I haven't seen her since August. I cannot comprehend the idea of never seeing her again.
My condolences to the families affected in CT
I couldn't agree more, Saint.
In the November election, our local ballot had a mental health funding issue. I needed about one second to vote yes for the funding. No question about it. As the husband of a mental health worker, I hear stories every week about people who are clinging, clutching to the edge of the cliff of sanity. My Wife not only provides a safety net for them if they slip and fall, but she also helps them to hang on, and actually climb back from the precipice. I could NEVER do what she does.
I fear for My Wife's safety every time she leaves the house, but I don't press her to find another profession. What she does is too important- to the people and families she helps, and to the community at large. I couldn't be more proud of her than I already am.
I'd ask one thing of you, Saint: that you don't miss an opportunity to tell anyone what you just told us. I could hear the sincerity of your convictions in your words, and know that you'll do as you promised... but you can also be a very convincing advocate to others. Your friends, the people whom you know.... they'll all listen to you- and you have a good message to share.
Bless you, Dawg- you're one of the Good Guys.
 ,
Clem
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Yes, these were legal firearms, but they were not acquired legally. They were STOLEN.
...from his mother, who purchased them legally.
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I was thinking more along the lines of taking the Bible out of schools and the Supreme Court ruling stating such. What do you expect when the people you look up to for leadership start chucking the rules out the window?
There isn't much evidence to suggest that one with exposure to the Bible is less likely to commit barbaric acts of brutality
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Quote:
Yes, these were legal firearms, but they were not acquired legally. They were STOLEN.
...from his mother, who purchased them legally.
Just about all firearms were legal at some point from the time of manufacture. Most firearm crimes are committed by illegally obtained weapons and/or by people who are not legally allowed to possess them. Criminals will get guns because they don't obey laws.....that's why they're ciminals. And that's why gun control legislation does not work. It really is that simple.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Just about all firearms were legal at some point from the time of manufacture.
Really? You don't say.
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Quote:
Just about all firearms were legal at some point from the time of manufacture.
Really? You don't say.
Nice smartass remark.  The point I was trying to make is that you can trace almost any firearm back to a legal purchase....and the anti crowd uses that to support their cause.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Criminals will get guns because they don't obey laws.....that's why they're ciminals. And that's why gun control legislation does not work. It really is that simple.
Agreed.
Same with drugs.
It's a social problem.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just about all firearms were legal at some point from the time of manufacture.
Really? You don't say.
Nice smartass remark. The point I was trying to make is that you can trace almost any firearm back to a legal purchase....and the anti crowd uses that to support their cause.
I'm not the one trying to win the Captain Obvious award here.
The point of my comment was that taking a firearm from a friend or family member who you share a residence with and who obtained said firearm through legal means should not in any way be equated with buying them on any sort of illegal or black market.
You can speculate all you want that this guy may have purchased these weapons illegally if he really wanted them (though its just as likely that he'd have just gone to Walmart or a sporting goods store). The fact of the matter is that he took them from his mother (and used one to kill her), who had numerous weapons at the house that they shared. Stating that they were criminally obtained is at best merely semantic.
Not arguing for or against gun control. Just saying don't pretend that the guns used to kill these 27 people were acquired through some illicit back-alley channel.
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Practice Squad
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Quote:
I have concluded that anytime an issue comes up to the ballot regarding funding for the detection, counseling and treatment of mental illnesses I will vote FOR the funding. It seems to me that the small increase in my taxes is well worth the lives of of these young children.
As a parent, I cannot fathom the anguish that these families are going thru. Yesterday was a good day for me since my daughter DancinDawg finally came home to me after spending a semester in Italy. I haven't seen her since August. I cannot comprehend the idea of never seeing her again.
My condolences to the families affected in CT
I couldn't agree more, Saint.
In the November election, our local ballot had a mental health funding issue. I needed about one second to vote yes for the funding. No question about it. As the husband of a mental health worker, I hear stories every week about people who are clinging, clutching to the edge of the cliff of sanity. My Wife not only provides a safety net for them if they slip and fall, but she also helps them to hang on, and actually climb back from the precipice. I could NEVER do what she does.
I fear for My Wife's safety every time she leaves the house, but I don't press her to find another profession. What she does is too important- to the people and families she helps, and to the community at large. I couldn't be more proud of her than I already am.
I'd ask one thing of you, Saint: that you don't miss an opportunity to tell anyone what you just told us. I could hear the sincerity of your convictions in your words, and know that you'll do as you promised... but you can also be a very convincing advocate to others. Your friends, the people whom you know.... they'll all listen to you- and you have a good message to share.
Bless you, Dawg- you're one of the Good Guys.
,
Clem
Clem give your Wife a big hug for me, my sister is a nurse.
And as Saint stated I vote for those levies also, cause someone is doing a more vital service than me in the phone business.
PS I don't post much but I love your music ventures & man Carnegie gave me chills!! My Uncle made bassoon & oboe reeds for a nice living, for a lot of orchestra's.
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#gmstrong
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Quote:
I have concluded that anytime an issue comes up to the ballot regarding funding for the detection, counseling and treatment of mental illnesses I will vote FOR the funding. It seems to me that the small increase in my taxes is well worth the lives of of these young children.
I have been preaching that to everyone I know for years. It's one of the rare tax increases I always vote for. It is woefully underfunded.
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I can no longer accept the premise that an alternative to a gun is a plausible defense. You have to go back to McVey for the last instance when it was not a gun
that doesn't make it any less true Charger. If someone wants to kill, they'll find a way.
For instance, outside of the legal methods, I wouldn't even know where to go to buy an illegal gun. serious, I don't have a clue where to buy one.
So, today, guns are legal to own if you get past whatever checks they do (and it doesn't sound difficult) so they become the easy route to take. Take that away and one of two things will happen, I'll either find out how to get illegal guns, or I'll go on the net to figure out how to build a bomb. I'll put that bomb in a big ole truck and ram it into a school, theatre, mall.. whatever,, then press the button.
I understand your thoughts on this, like I said I don't own a gun, never have and I don't feel the need to own one. But I do like the idea that I can if I want to.
I can, if I want, go out today and buy a gun. I'll pass whatever background check they put on me. And today, I'm not threat to anyone. But god only knows what will happen tomorrow to make me snap and there you have it. If I decide I'm going to kill, not much will stop me from getting it done. Some how or some way.
Fully Auto weapons, yeah, I get it, not needed in private hands. Semi Auto weapons, again, not sure I see the need. but I'm not a gun guy.. so I don't have any skin in this.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Seeing all their pictures is just heart breaking and gut wrenching. Those teachers killed were just babies too. 
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I honestly believe people if people are determined enough, they will find a way to do harm. The 9/11 hijackers are proof of this. Not one gun was used in the biggest crime committed on US soil.
I know that is a stretch because of the fact that they were funded by a millionaire terrorist leader, but it just points out that you don't need guns to do harm.
I still think that maybe the gun people and the gun opponents can come to some happy medium.
A huge chunk of guns in this country are probably illegal anyway. So it may not even be a governing issue.
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The thing is, we can't enforce the laws we have now. Anything new will just further enable the criminals.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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I will be the first to admit that I don't have a list of answers for this issue.
But, I think we should begin to question the basic premise by which we have been told that we have to accept these acts as being beyond our control. Our country has had half of the mass random shooting incidents of this type, although we are only about 5 percent of the population. It is our problem. It has worn thin, and I no longer believe the people who keep telling me that guns are not part of the issue.
I will use a couple of corollaries. We know that if we wear a seat belt and ride in a car with an airbag, or ride a bike or motorcycle with a helmet we are less likely to die in a collision. Do people still die, the answer is, yes. Do we still see cases and circumstances where someone would have survived if they would have had worn a seat belt, yes. Are there a few cases where someone will point to the fact that the seat belt may have contributed to the death, yes. And does any of that change the premise that we are safer with seat belts, air bags and helmets, no.
A similar concept, when a youngster is taught to drive, it takes about 6 months of training before we give them a license. Being a school bus driver or a semi truck driver requires different training. We have no such licensing or training requirements for guns. It is absurd to allow someone who is mentally unstable to have a gun, and yet we accept this for a number of states.
There was a question posed earlier in this thread as what contributed to this breakdown, is it the lack of religion, the parenting or any of the other common complaints that are offered, and my dad lamented as well, and his dad too. I will offer one of my own. This became a problem when we failed to recognize that 1) guns in the wrong hands are very dangerous, and 2) we have a lot of mentally disturbed people in this society, and limited ability to help them. Mental Health hospitals were de-funded in the 1980's and never really replaced.
The second amendment was written in a time without a standing army, and it took a minute to fire a single shot. We live in a different world today an have failed ourselves by not recognizing that we live in different circumstances.
So we need to re-think how we view guns, and our too casual approach to their use and potential for misuse.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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When a drunk driver causes an accident and kills someone, do we hear cries for banning cars?
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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Quote:
When a drunk driver causes an accident and kills someone, do we hear cries for banning cars?
Or liquor for that matter?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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We tried liquor.
Epic fail...
#GMSTRONG
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Marijuana has been illegal for decades upon decades.
I'm sure that no one knows anyone who has ever even heard of anyone even trying it .......
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Another School Shooting !!!
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